Cork City boundary extension

thejuggler

Has there been any update on this recently? If memory serves Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan gave the two local authorities an ultimatum to reach an agreement on a boundary extension by the time of the local elections or he would impose a solution. The election has come and gone and so now too has Phil Hogan who is off to Europe. Where does this leave the city boundary extension debate? I think both authorities should be merged to make the argument irrelevant. Can't see it happening though.

KCAccidental

I think the LAs being merged would be disastrous for the city. County is far too big for it to be merged without the city losing significant funding.

I would suggest writing to the new minister after the reshuffle to get their view on it.Annexing Glanmire, Blarney, Douglas, Grange and Ballincollig should be a priority.

Pitcairn

In 2012 Big Phil published the Putting People First document, an ironic title given it did away with Town Councils.

However it also said that the City and County Councils in Cork had five years to come up with a new boundary or else the Minister would impose one himself.

The last I heard the City and County Councils were in early talks about it. You can expect a tough negotiation. The county won't want to give up the big Rate Payer and Property Tax bases in areas like Little Island, Ballincollig, Carrigaline or Cork Airport.
They'll obviously have to give up Douglas, Frankfield and probably Glanmire but I can't see an agreement being easily reached. They might just leave it up to the Minister to decide.

It'll be interesting to hear the views of the new Minister Alan Kelly. He knows Cork well having studied in UCC.

thejuggler

Looks like my memory was hazy. 5 years is an eternity in politics though. Who knows who will be in charge in 3 years time. A kick the can down the road exercise.

moyners

http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/cork-news/2015/01/14/city-boundary-expansion-to-be-decided-by-independent-panel/

Looks like the government is giving up on the two councils ever agreeing on an extension themselves...

CHealy

The entire urban area of the city needs to be officially part of the city, its as simple as that. Throw in Glanmire, Ballincollig, Carrigaline, Little Island and you have a population of around quarter of a million. Any businesses, tourists, event planners will be much more likely to bring their time to a city of 250,000 instead of 119,000.

thejuggler

Interesting intervention by the minister. Evidently he has seen from his time in the role that the two local authorities have no interest in making any progress towards a boundary extension.
I hope this process leads to a solution. However even at the end of the process when a recommendation is made there is no guarantee it will be implemented. Time will tell.

Reputable Rog

The most likely outcome of this will be a merger of the two councils similar to Limerick and Waterford.
A boundary extension would remove the vast majority of the counties rate base and be a financial disaster.
The political and business clamour of late has been for a merger and I reckon this is exactly what will happen.

Outkast_IRE

I live in one of these areas that are really in the city for all intensive purposes, but are County Council areas.

Its annoying really cause for example, the housing estate 50 meters away from us gets its grass cut by the city council at least once a month, whereas in the county council areas the residents must group together to pay for all grass cutting. I see the city council sending around teams to clean up litter etc on the roads and grassy areas, but none of that in county council areas.

To be honest i think its long overdue in many areas to become part of the city.

Ludo

KCAccidental wrote: »

I think the LAs being merged would be disastrous for the city. County is far too big for it to be merged without the city losing significant funding.

I would suggest writing to the new minister after the reshuffle to get their view on it.Annexing Glanmire, Blarney, Douglas, Grange and Ballincollig should be a priority.

And this is the problem.
You think it would be disastrous for the City and county to merge as the money would need to be spread out more so the city loses money. Not sure that is tru by the way....same money in total...same area in total.

But you have no issue with taking away the Countys most populous areas and denying them that income while transferring it to the city coffers. That doesn't seem fair either.

Just for full disclosure...I live in Rochestown which is in the county now but would be moving to the city I imagine. I'm not sure what is the right thing to do. They have "experts" for these things

shnaek

"It was agreed in 2012 that the boundary of Cork would be extended into the county to create a larger metropolitan city, and then Minister Phil Hogan gave the city and county councils five years to come up with an acceptable plan."

What was he giving them five years for? No wonder nothing ever gets done in this country! Give them five months, and that's generous. Get an independent panel working on it at the same time. If the councils haven't sorted it out in five months then the independent panel decides. Job done.

clerk

shnaek wrote: »

What was he giving them five years for? No wonder nothing ever gets done in this country! Give them five months, and that's generous. Get an independent panel working on it at the same time. If the councils haven't sorted it out in five months then the independent panel decides. Job done.

I agree with you but as a guess to your Q I'd say because his plan was to be in Europe before the decision had to be made.

rebs23

Hope this isn't going to be a half measure and only include some city suburbs. Would love something imaginative like a Cork City and Harbour Council stretching around the Harbour (including Carrigaline, Ballincollig, Glanmire, Blarney/Tower, Passage West, Little Island, Glounthaune, Carrigtohill, Midleton, Cobh and Crosshaven) and including all the direct city suburbs (like Douglas, Rochestown, Grange, Donoughmore, parts of Baalyvolane, Riverstown)currently officially in the county. Something like that would mean the population of Cork City and suburbs reaching 300,000.

cgcsb

What's even more shocking is that the current City's population is 119,000 and the city and suburban is approx 250,000. How have we got to a situation, from a planning point of view, that outlying suburbs are home to more people than the City it's self. Such a set up is clearly unsustainable, you're setting people up for long commutes. It's almost like a North American City in that respect. Galway has a similar problem, only 75,000 in the City.

The Central area should be, by a long shot, the most densely populated.

rebs23

cgcsb wrote: »

What's even more shocking is that the current City's population is 119,000 and the city and suburban is approx 2,500,000. How have we got to a situation, from a planning point of view, that outlying suburbs are home to more people than the City it's self. Such a set up is clearly unsustainable, you're setting people up for long commutes. It's almost like a North American City in that respect. Galway has a similar problem, only 75,000 in the City.

The Central area should be, by a long shot, the most densely populated.

In fairness I'd say the problem in Galway is nowhere near the same scale. They got a boundary extension in the 80's which currently covers all the suburbs with the exception of Oranmore.

CHealy

cgcsb wrote: »

What's even more shocking is that the current City's population is 119,000 and the city and suburban is approx 2,500,000. How have we got to a situation, from a planning point of view, that outlying suburbs are home to more people than the City it's self. Such a set up is clearly unsustainable, you're setting people up for long commutes. It's almost like a North American City in that respect. Galway has a similar problem, only 75,000 in the City.

The Central area should be, by a long shot, the most densely populated.

I might be wrong but I think Cork is a fair bit off having 2 and a half million in the city and suburbs. :D

rebs23 wrote: »

In fairness I'd say the problem in Galway is nowhere near the same scale. They got a boundary extension in the 80's which currently covers all the suburbs with the exception of Oranmore.

Was Galways boundary not extended in the last decade? I seem to remember reading about how the city boundary includes all the urban area and a load of rural area aswell so its an incorrect reading.

Pablo Escobar

rebs23 wrote: »

In fairness I'd say the problem in Galway is nowhere near the same scale. They got a boundary extension in the 80's which currently covers all the suburbs with the exception of Oranmore.

Galway is nowhere near the same. What we're talking about here is an increase of 250% of the city's official population with a boundary extension. I'm not really sure how we've gotten to this stage. It should have been done a long time ago.

Reputable Rog

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

Galway is nowhere near the same. What we're talking about here is an increase of 250% of the city's official population with a boundary extension. I'm not really sure how we've gotten to this stage. It should have been done a long time ago.

Galway has no problem, it currently has a land area nearly the size of Cork and Limerick Cities combined.
Limerick and Waterford were the other cities with the problem which the government tried to solve by meeging the local authorities and creating Metropolitan districts around the cities. The same thing will happen in Cork.
I was interested to read that until the formation of the new Limerick Metropolitan district it had a population density of 26/ha, Cork currently has 30/ha.
Galway has a density of just 14/ha.

Sephiroth_dude

Ballincollig should definitely be in the city boundary, paying 7.10 for a bus is a joke.

grenache

rebs23 wrote: »

Hope this isn't going to be a half measure and only include some city suburbs. Would love something imaginative like a Cork City and Harbour Council stretching around the Harbour (including Carrigaline, Ballincollig, Glanmire, Blarney/Tower, Passage West, Little Island, Glounthaune, Carrigtohill, Midleton, Cobh and Crosshaven) and including all the direct city suburbs (like Douglas, Rochestown, Grange, Donoughmore, parts of Baalyvolane, Riverstown)currently officially in the county. Something like that would mean the population of Cork City and suburbs reaching 300,000.

Carrigaline, Blarney, Tower, Cobh, etc are all well outside the city environs, Midleton is surely 15 miles to the east. That suggestion is taking the pi$$, with all due respect.

the dark phantom

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Galway has no problem, it currently has a land area nearly the size of Cork and Limerick Cities combined.
Limerick and Waterford were the other cities with the problem which the government tried to solve by meeging the local authorities and creating Metropolitan districts around the cities. The same thing will happen in Cork.
I was interested to read that until the formation of the new Limerick Metropolitan district it had a population density of 26/ha, Cork currently has 30/ha.
Galway has a density of just 14/ha.

Actually Waterford didn't have that problem, Its city boundary was also extended in the 80's, And for folk thinking Cork's city and county councils should/will be merged, It wouldn't make any sense as combined it would be 520,000 people which is too large to be efficient. Rural Cork would be creaming off the city.

Anyhow in a rare moment of sense Phil Hogan said Cork was too big to have 1 authority.

the dark phantom

grenache wrote: »

Carrigaline, Blarney, Tower, Cobh, etc are all well outside the city environs, Midleton is surely 15 miles to the east. That suggestion is taking the pi$$, with all due respect.

In an extraordinary stupid move even by Irish standards, Carrigaline got divided alone its river by the new municipal districts !! It originally never had its own UDC/or Town Council even though it has roughly 14'000 people according to census2011, Local democracy and administration paddy style is just wonderful..

hoodwinked

the problem with this though is while the city and county council's fight it out for the area's like douglas, glanmire, ballincollig...etc over the additional revenue they bring,

the people in these area's are reluctant to move to the city boundaries, (or at least they were a few years back)

people seem to think bus fare's are linked to being in the city/county but this isn't the case (donnybrook and grange are in the county but have lower fares than ballincollig for example) so the fare won't go down if ballincollig joins the city council,

what will change while these days isn't as much of a difference as a few years back when it effected grants...etc things will change e.g: social housing, Rates, local election candidates/structures, planning, Estates will become disc parking only, so unless you have a driveway you will have to go through city council for a permit. considering the amount of people i know in donnybrook alone who park "on street" , i can see this being profitable for the city but at the anger and expense of residents.

it's also easier to visit county hall and park there (for free) to get stuff done rather than having to go to city hall not to mention the fact they barely can cope with the current city population so when they have twice the people coming in it will be chaos.

there is a reason people choose to live on the outskirts of the city and travel in there rather than living there. and these area's will see a lot of people again move out to the newer developed county boundaries imo creating more "suburbs" in what is now the green belt.

namloc1980

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

Ballincollig should definitely be in the city boundary, paying 7.10 for a bus is a joke.

What relationship do you think there is between Bus Eireann fares and local authority boundaries?

Reputable Rog

The County are unwilling to give up areas like Little Island etc because of the revenue they will lose.
It was the same situation in Limerick where the county couldn't afford to give up Dooradoyle, Raheen and Castletroy.
When no agreement could be found a merger was the option the government went with.

lostinsuperfunk

Estates will become disc parking only

There are plenty of areas within the City boundary that are not disc parking controlled, e.g. Ballinlough, Mahon, Blackrock, most of Togher, Mayfield etc. etc...

Disc/permit parking is usually only introduced to help prioritise residents in suburban areas where there are problems due to commuters parking in residential areas, e.g. around UCC and CUH. Of course it is a nice revenue earner on the side.

hoodwinked

lostinsuperfunk wrote: »

There are plenty of areas within the City boundary that are not disc parking controlled, e.g. Ballinlough, Mahon, Blackrock, most of Togher, Mayfield etc. etc...

Disc/permit parking is usually only introduced to help prioritise residents in suburban areas where there are problems due to commuters parking in residential areas, e.g. around UCC and CUH. Of course it is a nice revenue earner on the side.

and there are problems with people parking in douglas and commuting to town, so much so they introduced an on street parking payment scheme, so if the city council take it over i cannot see them changing it back to free parking, only them making it all disc parking. which they'll extend to where there are also problems with on street parking in estates around douglas due to most households having 3+ cars with room for 1/2 or none,

namloc1980

hoodwinked wrote: »

and there are problems with people parking in douglas and commuting to town, so much so they introduced an on street parking payment scheme, so if the city council take it over i cannot see them changing it back to free parking, only them making it all disc parking. which they'll extend to where there are also problems with on street parking in estates around douglas due to most households having 3+ cars with room for 1/2 or none,

Most households in Douglas have 3+ cars?? Get outta here!

rebs23

grenache wrote: »

Carrigaline, Blarney, Tower, Cobh, etc are all well outside the city environs, Midleton is surely 15 miles to the east. That suggestion is taking the pi$$, with all due respect.

Carrigaline, Blarney and Tower are all within a short distance of the city suburbs. Cobh and Midleton are within 10-15 miles depending on how you measure it. (Radial or by road) whatever way you look at it though they are all part of the urban environment of Cork city and suburbs. Cobh and Midleton have good rail commuter services. Get the train to Cobh or Midleton and it's like a string of urban development to both.
Hence a suggestion of a new council joining the city itself with the outlying suburban area, a Cork City and Harbour Council so there is an integrated and Coordinated area for future development. Stop pushing development out.
Cork is pretty unique in Irish terms in terms of the number of towns that ring the city. Effectively they have become suburbs of Cork city itself.

rebs23

hoodwinked wrote: »

the problem with this though is while the city and county council's fight it out for the area's like douglas, glanmire, ballincollig...etc over the additional revenue they bring,

the people in these area's are reluctant to move to the city boundaries, (or at least they were a few years back)

people seem to think bus fare's are linked to being in the city/county but this isn't the case (donnybrook and grange are in the county but have lower fares than ballincollig for example) so the fare won't go down if ballincollig joins the city council,

what will change while these days isn't as much of a difference as a few years back when it effected grants...etc things will change e.g: social housing, Rates, local election candidates/structures, planning, Estates will become disc parking only, so unless you have a driveway you will have to go through city council for a permit. considering the amount of people i know in donnybrook alone who park "on street" , i can see this being profitable for the city but at the anger and expense of residents.

it's also easier to visit county hall and park there (for free) to get stuff done rather than having to go to city hall not to mention the fact they barely can cope with the current city population so when they have twice the people coming in it will be chaos.

there is a reason people choose to live on the outskirts of the city and travel in there rather than living there. and these area's will see a lot of people again move out to the newer developed county boundaries imo creating more "suburbs" in what is now the green belt.

In more recent times there is definitely a move back to the city, hence the higher prices for houses near the city centre.
The situation of houses being developed in outlying areas is not good planning policy and has lead to all sorts of problems. It was not a choice to move out, there was simply no choice. Just a guess but most Cork people seem to recognise the need for a new Cork city boundary or an amalgamation of the the two councils.

mire

A Merger would kill the city. It would effectively be the County (with its conservative, rural, anti-city perspective) taking over the city. They'd have put the event centre in Milstreet and the Pairc in Mallow. The balance of power would be anti-urban. We need a big urban metro authority of about 250,000 and a strong county of about 250,000.

Limerick and Waterford no longer have City authorities [they have symbolic 'metropolitan districts' with little or no powers]. They were duped and they know it. I wouldn't be following their leads at all. Two cities in real crisis. Cork is 15 years ahead of those two places. It's a proper city and shoudl have ambition to remain one.

AugustusMinimus

mire wrote: »

A Merger would kill the city. It would effectively be the County (with its conservative, rural, anti-city perspective) taking over the city. They'd have put the event centre in Milstreet and the Pairc in Mallow. The balance of power would be anti-urban. We need a big urban metro authority of about 250,000 and a strong county of about 250,000.

Limerick and Waterford no longer have City authorities [they have symbolic 'metropolitan districts' with little or no powers]. They were duped and they know it. I wouldn't be following their leads at all. Two cities in real crisis. Cork is 15 years ahead of those two places. It's a proper city and shoudl have ambition to remain one.

A merger indeed would be one of the worst possible things that could happen. In addition, a merger would create a single county council overseeing a population in excess of 500,000. This would make it the largest county council area by far. It would simply be far too large.

My view is that Cork City should take in all surrounding environs, including Ballincollig, Carrigaline, Glanmire, Tower and Blarney. I would even consider taking Ringaskiddy and Little Island in due to the industrial output of both areas.

To ease Cork County Council's mind, a yearly rebate each year would be paid by Cork City Council to Cork County Council in order to make up for loss of rates and other such funding. Obviously such a rebate shouldn't entirely cover the total loss of revenue.

It is absolutely madness at the moment though that the city proper comprises less than half of what should actually comprise the city.

hoodwinked

namloc1980 wrote: »

Most households in Douglas have 3+ cars?? Get outta here!

i know it's hard to believe but a lot do, with adult children living at home longer you have the mother's car, fathers car and the adult child's car, i know one house with a drive big enough for 1 car while the family have 4 cars, so 3 are always parked on the road. (two adult children who drive)

rebs23 wrote: »

In more recent times there is definitely a move back to the city, hence the higher prices for houses near the city centre.
The situation of houses being developed in outlying areas is not good planning policy and has lead to all sorts of problems. It was not a choice to move out, there was simply no choice. Just a guess but most Cork people seem to recognise the need for a new Cork city boundary or an amalgamation of the the two councils.

i agree there was not good planning when it came to developing suburbs around cork, traffic issues are the most visible problems, but quite a substantial amount of people chose to move to places like Douglas, Ballincollig, and Glanmire...etc rather than live in the city.

the problem was as the fields that once surrounded these area's were built on they were building tiny houses with tiny gardens and apartments in these area's, and along with the extortionate prices charged for these they pushed people further afield again to Carrigaline/Crosshaven/Tower/Passage west/Ovens...etc not back into the city. people in general will move outwards, and i feel if they do extend out to include Douglas/carrigaline into the city places like crosshaven/and up by the airport/ballygarven..etc will see the same housing estates popping up in their area's that happened in douglas from the 50's/60's onwards,

while you do see a few people wanting to live in Cork city, the reality is most most people look to buy in urban county area's. such as Douglas/Ballincollig it's why prices were so high in these area's and they became so over developed. there was a huge demand.

they were near the city but you were still "in the country". best of both worlds,

zetalambda

namloc1980 wrote: »

What relationship do you think there is between Bus Eireann fares and local authority boundaries?

It's a conspiracy!

the dark phantom

Dumb de dumb de dumb.. Seems the worse solution is the popular one amongst our councillors.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/super-council-planned-for-cork-320128.html

KCAccidental

County councillors to be fair. I can understand where they are coming from to an extent, they dont want to lose the big rates they get from the harbour and suburbs, but they have been leeching off the suburbs to the detriment of the city as a whole for so long now and it just can't go on.

To be a proper counterbalance to Dublin, Cork city has to be able to advertise it's population in a more realistic manner then before. We had the farcical situation in the 2006 census of the city population falling during the widespread flight to the suburbs. Something has to be done to counteract that, so that the city can be properly recognised as a major economic centre in the country.

I can see this issue ending with a ministerial decree rather than agreement between the councils.

CHealy

KCAccidental wrote: »

I can see this issue ending with a ministerial decree rather than agreement between the councils.

Should be done now rather than wait for the clowns to try and decide. This requires real governance and the minister should pull out the finger and tell them whats what. Its a simple decision really, a Cork Metropolitan area has to be created to include the true population of the city.

CHealy

Sense from the lads in City Hall.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/council-wants-to-double-citys-population-with-boundary-extension/

Roger Hassenforder

the dark phantom wrote: »

In an extraordinary stupid move even by Irish standards, Carrigaline got divided alone its river by the new municipal districts !! It originally never had its own UDC/or Town Council even though it has roughly 14'000 people according to census2011, Local democracy and administration paddy style is just wonderful..

Rivers are traditionally used as boundaries. The Tramore forms part of the city/county boundary to the south of the city.

ongarboy

Even if there are to remain separate city and county administered councils, I think there should be an official Cork Metropolitan area boundary for marketing the city at home and abroad for investment etc and for census population purposes. The census already counts the continuous built up area of Cork to be around 200,000 as of 2011 even though the official city limit population (ie not including Douglas etc) is only 119000 and shrinking each census. This makes Cork seem a much smaller city at first glance. Limerick city suffers the same fate in this regard.

Since the abolition of Urban District Councils (UDCs) in all other counties, the towns now are part of county councils but still have distinct municipal boundaries for administration purposes. The towns didn't just disappear with the elimination of the UDCs. Perhaps something similar should be set up for the urban cities of Ireland.

Reputable Rog

CHealy wrote: »

Sense from the lads in City Hall.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/council-wants-to-double-citys-population-with-boundary-extension/

As opposed to non sensical for the members of the County Council to try and defend the interests of the county.
If the City gets its way it will be a massive disadvantage for the remainder of the county outside of the metro.

the dark phantom

Reputable Rog wrote: »

As opposed to non sensical for the members of the County Council to try and defend the interests of the county.
If the City gets its way it will be a massive disadvantage for the remainder of the county outside of the metro.

Why would it be ? The County Council would be looking after the county areas and towns which is exactly what its purpose should be rather then feeding off the cities environs.

The reason we have two councils is exactly so the county council can look after the county and the city council can look after the city. :cool:

the dark phantom

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Rivers are traditionally used as boundaries. The Tramore forms part of the city/county boundary to the south of the city.

Carrigaline simply shouldn't be divided between two municipal councils and electoral areas.

Carrigaline's river goes through the centre of Carrigaline wheareas the Tramore River skirts to the south of Cork City.

CHealy

Reputable Rog wrote: »

As opposed to non sensical for the members of the County Council to try and defend the interests of the county.
If the City gets its way it will be a massive disadvantage for the remainder of the county outside of the metro.

And rightly so, it's a disgrace that as the states second city our official population is a mere 119,00 when in reality its closer to quarter of a million. Makes a big difference when company's are looking to locate here and Cork needs to grow even bigger as an economic hub to that outside of Dublin.

Roger Hassenforder

the dark phantom wrote: »

Carrigaline simply shouldn't be divided between two municipal councils and electoral areas.

Carrigaline's river goes through the centre of Carrigaline wheareas the Tramore River skirts to the south of Cork City.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Tramore River skirts to the south of the city because that's where they decided to set the boundary...at the Tramore River...

I'm not arguing with you by the way, only saying rivers make natural boundary markers!

Ludo

Same with Bray. North of the town on one side of the river in County Dublin, rest of the town to the south of the river in County Wicklow.

Reputable Rog

CHealy wrote: »

And rightly so, it's a disgrace that as the states second city our official population is a mere 119,00 when in reality its closer to quarter of a million. Makes a big difference when company's are looking to locate here and Cork needs to grow even bigger as an economic hub to that outside of Dublin.

No in reality it's 152,000. Ballincollig, Midleton, Carrigaline are not in the Cork Urban Area. There is clear open country side between them and the City.

AugustusMinimus

That is incorrect. The population of the cork urban area is 198,000

Reputable Rog

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That is incorrect. The population of the cork urban area is 198,000

That would depend on what you define as the Cork Urban Area. If you combine the city proper with the contiguous area in the county you get 152,000.
The County are willing to concede this area plus a few thousand acres of green belt to allow the City to grow to 200,000.

AugustusMinimus

Reputable Rog wrote: »

That would depend on what you define as the Cork Urban Area. If you combine the city proper with the contiguous area in the county you get 152,000.
The County are willing to concede this area plus a few thousand acres of green belt to allow the City to grow to 200,000.

I'm sorry but all stats show the figure being 198k. If you have any evidence of this 152k figure I'd love to see it.

cgcsb

I don't think any Irish City needs to grow outwards at this stage.