The Time has surely come??

Oilbeefhooked!

Just wondering if any fellow Boardsies agree that the time has now come to change the golf ball to limit distance.
Following Rory Mcilroys 436yd drive today ( i know it was downwind on a hard links course) - but after Bubba Watson making a mockery of Augusta National this year, and guys now hitting a golf ball a quarter of a mile in one shot.:eek:
Surely something has to be done by the powers that be to limit the balls, before
many more great golf courses become unsuitable for professional competitions!!??

soundsham

Downhill downwind on a links
I'm sure he averages closer to 310

If he teed up on the green and played to the tee it'd probably be a 270 yd drive

ankles

They did it at Wimbledon for the tennis. Altered the balls as it had become a serve slugfest. Would be a huge change but a hell of a lot cheaper than golf course buying pots of land to add 35 yards or more to every hole.

shane 007

Last week in the Leinster Under 18's Boys Championship, on the par 5 14th in Kilkenny, a young fella hit a 410 yard drive downwind!

Crazy!!!

Norfolk Enchants_

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Just wondering if any fellow Boardsies agree that the time has now come to change the golf ball to limit distance.
Following Rory Mcilroys 436yd drive today ( i know it was downwind on a hard links course) - but after Bubba Watson making a mockery of Augusta National this year, and guys now hitting a golf ball a quarter of a mile in one shot.:eek:
Surely something has to be done by the powers that be to limit the balls, before
many more great golf courses become unsuitable for professional competitions!!??

Yeah 'cause changing the ball will account for playing downwind, downhill on concrete like links fairways with 150 yards of roll.

Oilbeefhooked!

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Yeah 'cause changing the ball will account for playing downwind, downhill on concrete like links fairways with 150 yards of roll.

So to clarify, your saying that - its NOT possible to limit the distance a golf ball will travel , by changing the composition (ie, the core,dimple patttern, outer shell etc) of the modern golf ball??

Oilbeefhooked!

soundsham wrote: »

Downhill downwind on a links
I'm sure he averages closer to 310

If he teed up on the green and played to the tee it'd probably be a 270 yd drive

So you don't believe the distance players are now driving the ball, is becoming a problem in modern Golf?

shane 007

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

So you don't believe the distance players are now driving the ball, is becoming a problem in modern Golf?

How far would you take it? Limit the equipment also?
IMO the extra distance is more from the clubs & shafts. Balls will have some effect but more so the equipment.

SuprSi

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

So you don't believe the distance players are now driving the ball, is becoming a problem in modern Golf?

I don't believe it's a problem at all. I personally think it's great that everyone in the game can benefit from extra distance provided by newer equipment. Keep it coming!

I'd imagine 99% of golfers worldwide are amateurs and I'd wager the vast majority would love to drive it 270 - 280 yards regularly. Remember that if you take distance off the golf ball, it affects the amateurs way more than the pros.

Professionals hit it as far as they do because they're incredibly talented. They generate huge clubhead speed and have equipment that's as personalised to their individual swing traits as possible. Seeing McIlroy thump it over 400 yards on a downhill links hole with the wind is amazing, and I absolutely love seeing it.

GreeBo

Would it not be just as impressive to watch mcilroy drive it 250 yards when us mere mortals driving it 200?
Added benefit of making many more older courses realistic venues.

The ball had made the biggest impact to distance, proven by the pros ability to drive the new ball similar distances with the old clubs.

SuprSi

GreeBo wrote: »

Would it not be just as impressive to watch mcilroy drive it 250 yards when us mere mortals driving it 200?
Added benefit of making many more older courses realistic venues.

The ball had made the biggest impact to distance, proven by the pros ability to drive the new ball similar distances with the old clubs.

Absolutely not. Limit the distance so we can't go any further, but take distance away from us? I'd be devastated if I lost 50 yards off the tee, regardless of how much distance professionals would lose.

GreeBo

SuprSi wrote: »

Absolutely not. Limit the distance so we can't go any further, but take distance away from us? I'd be devastated if I lost 50 yards off the tee, regardless of how much distance professionals would lose.

Why?
It would impact everyone equally.
Think of all the courses that you could then play add they were originally designed.
That 50 yards was only given to you in the last 15 years anyway.

Oilbeefhooked!

SuprSi wrote: »

I don't believe it's a problem at all. I personally think it's great that everyone in the game can benefit from extra distance provided by newer equipment. Keep it coming!

I'd imagine 99% of golfers worldwide are amateurs and I'd wager the vast majority would love to drive it 270 - 280 yards regularly. Remember that if you take distance off the golf ball, it affects the amateurs way more than the pros.

Professionals hit it as far as they do because they're incredibly talented. They generate huge clubhead speed and have equipment that's as personalised to their individual swing traits as possible. Seeing McIlroy thump it over 400 yards on a downhill links hole with the wind is amazing, and I absolutely love seeing it.

Your entitled to your opinion, but im in pretty good company with mine

http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/news02/nicklaus2.html

ps. Take your point re. Amatuers - but does not necessarily have to be the same equipment regulations for both pros and amatuers.

mjsc1970

I'd take 250 middle of the fairway evertime over 280 up to my town halls in the rough

slave1

mjsc1970 wrote: »

I'd take 250 middle of the fairway evertime over 280 up to my town halls in the rough

I wish I could hit it 250, nevermind 436. A few top pros should not effect the majority of golfers, leave as is...

Montgolfier

It would really screw up Taylormade marketing. "The SLDR stage 3 guarantee's to be only 25 yds shorter"

Imagine the rows over people using illegal balls.

gman127

If it was easier to hit the ball further then maybe more people would come back to the game!

Dublin Spur

nothing to do with the ball - it's the conditions

I played in Baltray last week and it was nearly impossible to stop/control the ball down wind.
The ground was so firm.

For example:
8th - 420 yrds - down wind - 4 iorn + wedge (though the back of the green)
9th - 420 yrds - into wind - Driver + 3 Wood + wedge

razorblunt

It's simple lads, make Commando balls the tour standard.

SnowDrifts

gman127 wrote: »

If it was easier to hit the ball further then maybe more people would come back to the game!

Russman

gman127 wrote: »

If it was easier to hit the ball further then maybe more people would come back to the game!

I doubt that's why many people left the game now, in fairness.

Op, I'd be totally in favour of reigning the ball back in. Yes, there's fitness improvements, large headed drivers etc but I think its generally accepted that the ball is the biggest factor for the outrageous distances they're hitting it now. I'm sorry, but when you've got them hitting wedges 160yds its a bit much IMO. So many great courses are being rendered obsolete and the only way they can hold events is to have pencil thin fairways, 6 inch rough and basically take the driver out of the guys' hands (like Merion last year).

Arguably the ruling bodies would have been better served dealing with the ball rather than anchoring. No reason why they couldn't have done both though.

Russman

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

but does not necessarily have to be the same equipment regulations for both pros and amatuers.

Have to say, I'd be totally against that though.

TheDoc

I don't know why people compare the proffesionals and make any comparison to the amateur game.

• Personalised fitting on a weekly basis.
• Custom built shafts. I'm not taking about the run of the mill selection, these guys can get unique custom built shafts, one of a kind.
• Conditioning coaches for physical training and fitness
• Advancements in fitness and conditioning providing more upper body strength.
• one to one coach, working with players every week.
• The time and dedicated to perfect a swing.

A proffesional will always hit a ball bigger then an amateur. It's not "STRICTLY" down to equipment.

If there was restrictions made to decrease distance in the amateur game, it will lead to simply slower golf and higher scoring golf, as players will become more reliant on hitting acurate woods and long irons into greens. Considering a lot of courses here in Ireland use that HORRIBLE upside down cup design for their greens, good luck trying to hit a green in two.

If they want to make changes to the pro tour go ahead, but no need for it on the amateur scene. I'm one of the biggest hitters in my club, and to be fair on a weekly basis most players hit out between 230-250 yards. Why in gods name would you remove more distance from them? The game is more fun and enjoyable when you are able to attack pins and flag, not when your having to hit woods into par 4's praying the ball doesn't run of the back of the green.

It's also worth noting that most amateurs arn't getting the maximum from their own swing and shot. Fades, poor ball flight, bad ball striking etc. It's not there is an epidemic where average players are hitting 350 yard drives.

It sounds like trying to fix a problem that isn't there.

Let the pro tour make changes if they want, there is no need to make changes to the amateur game.

FixdePitchmark

I wouldn't judge anything by this event in Scotland - as others have said it is conditions. This time of year you can get well over 300 yards with a tail wind on a links course. It was all down hill at his landing point. That explains his daft drive. But he is one of the biggest hitters.

Yes Rory is in another league to the other pros at this, but on another day there , he will struggle to reach green in 2.

Modern links are not designed for modern equipment - agree , but they have changed the ones that holds the big events only - it is easy to just let the rough go , it is a rare week you will not have a bad day on a links. The weather is almost the only defence to the modern game.
But in the mid 80s the lads were going 20 under for the 4 days at the Irish Open , without the modern equipment in good weather.

So the equipment has reached a limit - the clubs are at the limits of the rules , we should probably not give into pressure from the manufactures to go any further.

As amateurs we have benefited most form new equipment - I'm delighted to use GI irons and get away with murder with my poor striking.

Oilbeefhooked!

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't know why people compare the proffesionals and make any comparison to the amateur game.

• Personalised fitting on a weekly basis.
• Custom built shafts. I'm not taking about the run of the mill selection, these guys can get unique custom built shafts, one of a kind.
• Conditioning coaches for physical training and fitness
• Advancements in fitness and conditioning providing more upper body strength.
• one to one coach, working with players every week.
• The time and dedicated to perfect a swing.

A proffesional will always hit a ball bigger then an amateur. It's not "STRICTLY" down to equipment.

If there was restrictions made to decrease distance in the amateur game, it will lead to simply slower golf and higher scoring golf, as players will become more reliant on hitting acurate woods and long irons into greens. Considering a lot of courses here in Ireland use that HORRIBLE upside down cup design for their greens, good luck trying to hit a green in two.

If they want to make changes to the pro tour go ahead, but no need for it on the amateur scene. I'm one of the biggest hitters in my club, and to be fair on a weekly basis most players hit out between 230-250 yards. Why in gods name would you remove more distance from them? The game is more fun and enjoyable when you are able to attack pins and flag, not when your having to hit woods into par 4's praying the ball doesn't run of the back of the green.

It's also worth noting that most amateurs arn't getting the maximum from their own swing and shot. Fades, poor ball flight, bad ball striking etc. It's not there is an epidemic where average players are hitting 350 yard drives.

It sounds like trying to fix a problem that isn't there.

Let the pro tour make changes if they want, there is no need to make changes to the amateur game.

Totally agree here, and do also agree it could be very messy to have different regs for both.
My OP was just an observation purely directed at the professional golf game. Where due to all the factors you list above , so many top quality golf courses, are now obsolete to these pros , because all the well designed bunkering ,doglegging, hazarding is now just easily flown with the driver,often leaving a just a simple wedge to the green.
Again i use Bubba at Augusta as a prime example a drive and sand wedge to the par 5 13th!!!!

TheDoc

Agree with you, judging anything based on links golf is absolutely mental. It's a totally different world with firmer fairways giving more bounce and run, more countours that keep the ball moving and typically higher winds increasing carry.

I've had a good few drives clocked at 350yrds+ in St Annes for example. I used to play the father and son foursome event there with my Dad, he is a decent driver aswell, and we would consistently be flicking wedges and stuff into greens. But the downside been theball can easily roll into the heavy stuff, bunkers etc.

If people start massacaring 400+yrd drives on parkland, consistently, then yeah maybe its time to take a look, but driving distance on a links course is hardly the place to start the debate.

FixdePitchmark

Yes - but Bubba only has 2 majors - there is more to his game then just the big drive. Yes was a big factor in him winning this year - but his shot shaping is incredible - he not just a one shot guy.

I think it is a rare talent to win majors due to big hitting - should that not be embraced as much as a guy with a great short game.

It is a rare event and pro that has won a major - just due to distance.

GreeBo

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't know why people compare the proffesionals and make any comparison to the amateur game.

• Personalised fitting on a weekly basis.
• Custom built shafts. I'm not taking about the run of the mill selection, these guys can get unique custom built shafts, one of a kind.
• Conditioning coaches for physical training and fitness
• Advancements in fitness and conditioning providing more upper body strength.
• one to one coach, working with players every week.
• The time and dedicated to perfect a swing.

A proffesional will always hit a ball bigger then an amateur. It's not "STRICTLY" down to equipment.

If there was restrictions made to decrease distance in the amateur game, it will lead to simply slower golf and higher scoring golf, as players will become more reliant on hitting acurate woods and long irons into greens. Considering a lot of courses here in Ireland use that HORRIBLE upside down cup design for their greens, good luck trying to hit a green in two.

If they want to make changes to the pro tour go ahead, but no need for it on the amateur scene. I'm one of the biggest hitters in my club, and to be fair on a weekly basis most players hit out between 230-250 yards. Why in gods name would you remove more distance from them? The game is more fun and enjoyable when you are able to attack pins and flag, not when your having to hit woods into par 4's praying the ball doesn't run of the back of the green.

It's also worth noting that most amateurs arn't getting the maximum from their own swing and shot. Fades, poor ball flight, bad ball striking etc. It's not there is an epidemic where average players are hitting 350 yard drives.

It sounds like trying to fix a problem that isn't there.

Let the pro tour make changes if they want, there is no need to make changes to the amateur game.

Sure its great fun, its always fun to over power a course.
But its not playing the courses how they were designed.
Play off any of the Society tees in a championship course and its a laugh, but its not golf. Likewise playing a course like Milltown or my own Grange to some extent is not how the course was designed. Overpowering par 4's with a drive and a wedge when they were designed as a drive and a 3 iron isnt comparing yourself with the best, its stretched out pitch and putt imo.

The game has turned into a boomers paradise, unless you are playing somewhere "new" like Druids Heath etc off the long tees.

TheDoc

There is always exceptions to the rule though. Bubba could easily hit a monster hook out of bounds nevermind a 400yrd drive down the middle.

I'd be interested to know the avg drive length on tour, I'd imagine it would be about 320-330yrds, which isn't much more then say what I hit it, but then I'm the edge case for my club, with the avg probably being about 240 or so.

I don't have data for this, but from observation on my course, most players would take a 5-6iron from 150 yrds, and in some cases shorter hitters would take a 21* rescue.

That's a pretty big ask to hit a par 4 in two as it is, relying on both direction and some form of short landing or spin to hold the green.

I'd normally take an 8 iron from 150 yrds wind dependant, probably a 7iron more often then not due to windage.

So while chopping 20 yards of distance might make me move up to a 7 iron or 6 iron, its still a club I could hit a green and hold it the ball there and have some degree of confidence in accuracy.

But all of a sudden you start taking that distance from the guys already hitting 5 irons and rescues from 150-160yrds, and the game becomes outragously more difficult.

On the surface 25 yards isn't a lot, if its the difference between a 9iron shot and 8iron shot its no big deal. But when you start moving up to 4irons to rescues, and rescues to 3 woods and 5 woods, all of a sudden that 25 yards turns into a totally different shot.

I appreciate you were mentioning specific to the pro tour, my points are more addressed at the posters who feel it might be good to see in the amateur game.

Henry Ford III

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

...It is a rare event and pro that has won a major - just due to distance.

It's never happened. They need sound iron play, a very decent short and recovery game, and still have to get the ball into the hole.

Rory's massive hit yesterday was truly exceptional, and a firm links and the wind all helped, but he still hit it straight.

Clubs and balls have been limited by rule changes over the years. Better technique, and superior conditioning both allow top pros to bomb it out there.

Long hitting alone though will not win a club monthly medal, never mind a major championship.

TheDoc

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure its great fun, its always fun to over power a course.
But its not playing the courses how they were designed.
Play off any of the Society tees in a championship course and its a laugh, but its not golf. Likewise playing a course like Milltown or my own Grange to some extent is not how the course was designed. Overpowering par 4's with a drive and a wedge when they were designed as a drive and a 3 iron isnt comparing yourself with the best, its stretched out pitch and putt imo.

The game has turned into a boomers paradise, unless you are playing somewhere "new" like Druids Heath etc off the long tees.

I don't think it's overpowering, but I take enjoyment out of using my "scoring irons" and being able to attack pins. Ironically one of the weakest parts of my game, wedge play, is the one I enjoy the most in terms of hitting a golf shot.

I wouldn't say I overpower a course, but in certain conditions sure I'm left with flicks of wedges into greens. But I'm the edge case.

All "big hitters" at club golf, are edge cases. The majority of golfers at club level I'd imagine hit what would be maybe constitued as the average distance.

Just from experience, I'd notice most players in my course on par 4's would take a good drive, and be left anywhere between 150-170 yards to the green. Assuming the drive is good and accurate. The next shot is then most likely a 6iron, 7iron, or possibly a 5 iron or wood/resuce for the shoter hitters.

I think thats a good sweetspot on average for a par 4. A good drive and then you have a 7iron or higher. IT still leaves you some distance, but atleast gives you the opportunity to hit a shot that can hold a green.

So many courses in Ireland have that ****e upturned green structure, where if you don't spin your ball on the surface, it just rolls of on the sides. No idea how we could expect guys hitting 4irons+ and woods to generate any sort of spin to that type of green, or any spin in general tbh. I'd definitly struggle if it came to that, as I don't generate tons of spin on my shots past an 8iron.

Co incidently that you mention overpowering, makes me realise how piss poor my short game is, that I'm frequently left with wedges and maybe 9irons 8irons into par 4's yet amn't taking total advantage.

I don't know specially how golf courses were designed, but I'd imagine a par 4 was built requiring a good drive, then providing you a shot to the green to get a birdie. While I'd agree being left with wedges might not be to the course design and intention, I somehow dont believe players being left with woods, rescues or high irons firing into par4's is intention either .

soundsham

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

So you don't believe the distance players are now driving the ball, is becoming a problem in modern Golf?

No I don't
How many Golfers drove that green yesterday ?

Conditions dictated that if was on for a super fit long hitter
Not every golfer

If the wind is opposite today the hole will play differently, it may be an iron off the tee

To me it makes golf great
every hole is a different prospect on any given day

I'd hate to see the football in Gaa changed coz some guy can bang over frees from 55m off the ground
Or because a hurler is knocking frees over from 100m+
Change a soccer ball coz Ronaldo and Messi are to good at frees

These are great skills perfected by hours and hours of training

I for one marvel at the guys who can

Neither affect the average players in any code

TheDoc

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Long hitting alone though will not win a club monthly medal, never mind a major championship.

This is so true, and why I'm going for paid lessons for the first time ever, to work on my shortgame. I've got a distinct advantage over the field with my driving, and don't capitalise on it with weak iron play and shortgame.

G1032

shane 007 wrote: »

How far would you take it? Limit the equipment also?
IMO the extra distance is more from the clubs & shafts. Balls will have some effect but more so the equipment.

No. It's the other way around. It's the ball that is the major reason for distance increase in the modern game

I listened to Tony Jacklin talk about this a while ago. Apparently the numbers playing the game in the UK are falling all the time?? In part due to the length of time it takes and in part due to the cost. Both of these can be reduced with a limit on how far the ball can go.....

I've not played golf myself for the last 2 years because of both of the reasons outlined above. If the ball didn't travel as far then courses wouldn't need to be as long, greens wouldn't need to be as big, cost of maintaining the course would be far less and cost of membership/green fee would fall as a result.
It would also take less much time to play a round of golf.

20 years ago I could play a round of golf on most courses around me in Galway/Mayo in a little over 3 hours. Over the last few years it was taking 4 - 4.5 hours per round. All these courses have been lengthened significantly because of the distance the ball is travelling.

Just to finish....... A friend of mine has worked in club design for two major golf companies and left the industry last year. He said he was glad to leave it because 'I got sick of making the same club year after year and putting a different name on it'!! He also said, like Jacklin, that the ball itself if the reason people are hitting it so far nowadays

GreeBo

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't know why people compare the proffesionals and make any comparison to the amateur game.

• Personalised fitting on a weekly basis.
• Custom built shafts. I'm not taking about the run of the mill selection, these guys can get unique custom built shafts, one of a kind.
• Conditioning coaches for physical training and fitness
• Advancements in fitness and conditioning providing more upper body strength.
• one to one coach, working with players every week.
• The time and dedicated to perfect a swing.

A proffesional will always hit a ball bigger then an amateur. It's not "STRICTLY" down to equipment.

If there was restrictions made to decrease distance in the amateur game, it will lead to simply slower golf and higher scoring golf, as players will become more reliant on hitting acurate woods and long irons into greens. Considering a lot of courses here in Ireland use that HORRIBLE upside down cup design for their greens, good luck trying to hit a green in two.

If they want to make changes to the pro tour go ahead, but no need for it on the amateur scene. I'm one of the biggest hitters in my club, and to be fair on a weekly basis most players hit out between 230-250 yards. Why in gods name would you remove more distance from them? The game is more fun and enjoyable when you are able to attack pins and flag, not when your having to hit woods into par 4's praying the ball doesn't run of the back of the green.

It's also worth noting that most amateurs arn't getting the maximum from their own swing and shot. Fades, poor ball flight, bad ball striking etc. It's not there is an epidemic where average players are hitting 350 yard drives.

It sounds like trying to fix a problem that isn't there.

Let the pro tour make changes if they want, there is no need to make changes to the amateur game.

Sure they will always hit it further than we do, but we are also hitting it much further than we ever did before.
The ball goes further, the club hits it further, clubs are individually fitted and yet we are playing courses that havent changed much in 100 years.
Why not just shoot the ball towards the green?
Why did RANDA limit the COR?

You say why remove distance?
I say why allow it in the first place?

If a new ball was 10% shorter than now, then it would actually help the shorter hitters, bringing everyone else back towards them.

Russman

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think it's overpowering, but I take enjoyment out of using my "scoring irons" and being able to attack pins. Ironically one of the weakest parts of my game, wedge play, is the one I enjoy the most in terms of hitting a golf shot.

I wouldn't say I overpower a course, but in certain conditions sure I'm left with flicks of wedges into greens. But I'm the edge case.

All "big hitters" at club golf, are edge cases. The majority of golfers at club level I'd imagine hit what would be maybe constitued as the average distance.

Just from experience, I'd notice most players in my course on par 4's would take a good drive, and be left anywhere between 150-170 yards to the green. Assuming the drive is good and accurate. The next shot is then most likely a 6iron, 7iron, or possibly a 5 iron or wood/resuce for the shoter hitters.

I think thats a good sweetspot on average for a par 4. A good drive and then you have a 7iron or higher. IT still leaves you some distance, but atleast gives you the opportunity to hit a shot that can hold a green.

So many courses in Ireland have that ****e upturned green structure, where if you don't spin your ball on the surface, it just rolls of on the sides. No idea how we could expect guys hitting 4irons+ and woods to generate any sort of spin to that type of green, or any spin in general tbh. I'd definitly struggle if it came to that, as I don't generate tons of spin on my shots past an 8iron.

Co incidently that you mention overpowering, makes me realise how piss poor my short game is, that I'm frequently left with wedges and maybe 9irons 8irons into par 4's yet amn't taking total advantage.

I don't know specially how golf courses were designed, but I'd imagine a par 4 was built requiring a good drive, then providing you a shot to the green to get a birdie. While I'd agree being left with wedges might not be to the course design and intention, I somehow dont believe players being left with woods, rescues or high irons firing into par4's is intention either .

I wonder would a reduction in the distance the ball travels really impact your average Joe though ? (genuinely).
I'm not convinced most club golfers actually compress the modern ball enough to get the real benefit out of it that the pros get. I half suspect (with no real evidence admittedly) that if a pro loses say 30yds if the ball was changed, a club player might lose 5/10 at most. I could be completely wrong.

FixdePitchmark

Said the same to a lad the other day.

Out of say 36 shots we take to green - how many do amateurs genuinely hit perfect - I said for me it is about 10 to 20 %.

The pros are almost all perfect.

GreeBo

Henry Ford III wrote: »

It's never happened. They need sound iron play, a very decent short and recovery game, and still have to get the ball into the hole.

Rory's massive hit yesterday was truly exceptional, and a firm links and the wind all helped, but he still hit it straight.

Clubs and balls have been limited by rule changes over the years. Better technique, and superior conditioning both allow top pros to bomb it out there.

Long hitting alone though will not win a club monthly medal, never mind a major championship.

A long guy on a good day has to hit good wedges to the green.
A short guy on a good day has to hit good 3 irons to the green.

Who do you want to be?

If the limit the distance the ball can travel, then the long guys will still be long guys and the short guys will still be short guys. It just means the course wont be outdated and not played as it was designed.

Lots of older courses have subtleties that are just ignored today.
5th Hole in Grange, uphill "dogleg" with a tight drive protected on both sides by trees.

Oh, apart from the fact that I can now just drive my ball straight over the trees 50yrds from the green.

TheDoc

Russman wrote: »

I wonder would a reduction in the distance the ball travels really impact your average Joe though ? (genuinely).
I'm not convinced most club golfers actually compress the modern ball enough to get the real benefit out of it that the pros get. I half suspect (with no real evidence admittedly) that if a pro loses say 30yds if the ball was changed, a club player might lose 5/10 at most. I could be completely wrong.

No, as you say, in reality the club golfer doesn't strike the ball in a way that brings the benefit of gaining that extra distance from the ball composition.

But if we are talking about reducing distance, as a flat figure, it will make a distance.

If you take say 20 yards of a club golfer, in a lot of cases in my opinion, you are changing the second shot into a par 4 from being an iron, into maybe a rescue or wood. Now your talking about a totally different type of shot, making the shot expedentionally more difficult. In certain circumstances it's not just a 20 yard difference, being maybe a 6iron instead of a 7, for a lot of players you are taking away an iron and making them hit a wood, which with a lower ball flight and less spin, will make it a whole different situation.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Said the same to a lad the other day.

Out of say 36 shots we take to green - how many do amateurs genuinely hit perfect - I said for me it is about 10 to 20 %.

The pros are almost all perfect.

Nicklaus said he hit maybe 3 perfect shots a round.

He also said

TheDoc

GreeBo wrote: »

If a new ball was 10% shorter than now, then it would actually help the shorter hitters, bringing everyone else back towards them.

But that is just a sweeping statements that doesn't reflect the different strengths and weakness players have.

I play a club match in Lucan last year( I think Lucan) and was playing an older man who afterwards I learned used to be a scratch golfer.

Every hole I was about 100 yards ahead of him with my drives, he was taking woods into greens while I was taking irons. That was my advantage. But I didn't capitalise, his shortgame was impervous and he won on the 16th.

The point being that he was strong hitting his woods, and he was precise around the greens. My longer hitting brought me some comfort in terms of hitting my comfort clubs into greens, but as I failed to capitalise on my putts, he never really was in trouble the entire game.

I also don't think it will bring longer hitters back . If I take my Dad as an example, I'm always about 50-60 yrds longer then him. If we do a flat 10% reduction in distance, I'm still 50-60 yards ahead of him. It makes no odds.

The benefit of being a bigger hitter is having more comfort clubs to hit. Wedges, 9 irons, 8 irons. To attack pins and be able to try setup birdes.

The whole point of technology advancement, if we forget the main reason in terms of generating sales and enticing players to upgrade equipment frequently, was to bring the shorter/average distance hitters to the point where they are hitting more comfort clubs.

Again I'd state that I don't think it's as rampant a problem at club level as you might be making out. Being a big hitter doesn't mean I can simply neglect my ironplay and shortgame. I'm not walking out thinking I'm going to walk my way to victory. I know your not saying that and I'm not implying you are, but I'm just not convinced that it's a big deal at our level.

You could argue even on the flipside that shoter hitters have a simpler game, being able to hit full shots, where as longer hitters have to learn to hit 3/4 half shots effectively. Which at our level, the most comfortable shot is a full shot.

GreeBo

TheDoc wrote: »

No, as you say, in reality the club golfer doesn't strike the ball in a way that brings the benefit of gaining that extra distance from the ball composition.

But if we are talking about reducing distance, as a flat figure, it will make a distance.

If you take say 20 yards of a club golfer, in a lot of cases in my opinion, you are changing the second shot into a par 4 from being an iron, into maybe a rescue or wood. Now your talking about a totally different type of shot, making the shot expedentionally more difficult. In certain circumstances it's not just a 20 yard difference, being maybe a 6iron instead of a 7, for a lot of players you are taking away an iron and making them hit a wood, which with a lower ball flight and less spin, will make it a whole different situation.

It wont be a flat figure because distance isnt generated that way, it will be a percentage/ratio compression related I would bet, or possibly dimples.

Russman

TheDoc wrote: »

No, as you say, in reality the club golfer doesn't strike the ball in a way that brings the benefit of gaining that extra distance from the ball composition.

But if we are talking about reducing distance, as a flat figure, it will make a distance.

If you take say 20 yards of a club golfer, in a lot of cases in my opinion, you are changing the second shot into a par 4 from being an iron, into maybe a rescue or wood. Now your talking about a totally different type of shot, making the shot expedentionally more difficult. In certain circumstances it's not just a 20 yard difference, being maybe a 6iron instead of a 7, for a lot of players you are taking away an iron and making them hit a wood, which with a lower ball flight and less spin, will make it a whole different situation.

True enough.
I guess it begs the question, as a result of modern equipment/ball developments etc, are many club golfers playing off the wrong tees ? Could that issue be solved by simply playing more forward tees ? If you're going to dial everything back, it'd be, in theory, the exact same game as now, but just played on a smaller plot of land.....?
I dunno, its a good debate though.

GreeBo

TheDoc wrote: »

But that is just a sweeping statements that doesn't reflect the different strengths and weakness players have.

I play a club match in Lucan last year( I think Lucan) and was playing an older man who afterwards I learned used to be a scratch golfer.

Every hole I was about 100 yards ahead of him with my drives, he was taking woods into greens while I was taking irons. That was my advantage. But I didn't capitalise, his shortgame was impervous and he won on the 16th.

The point being that he was strong hitting his woods, and he was precise around the greens. My longer hitting brought me some comfort in terms of hitting my comfort clubs into greens, but as I failed to capitalise on my putts, he never really was in trouble the entire game.

I also don't think it will bring longer hitters back . If I take my Dad as an example, I'm always about 50-60 yrds longer then him. If we do a flat 10% reduction in distance, I'm still 50-60 yards ahead of him. It makes no odds.

The benefit of being a bigger hitter is having more comfort clubs to hit. Wedges, 9 irons, 8 irons. To attack pins and be able to try setup birdes.

The whole point of technology advancement, if we forget the main reason in terms of generating sales and enticing players to upgrade equipment frequently, was to bring the shorter/average distance hitters to the point where they are hitting more comfort clubs.

Again I'd state that I don't think it's as rampant a problem at club level as you might be making out. Being a big hitter doesn't mean I can simply neglect my ironplay and shortgame. I'm not walking out thinking I'm going to walk my way to victory. I know your not saying that and I'm not implying you are, but I'm just not convinced that it's a big deal at our level.

You could argue even on the flipside that shoter hitters have a simpler game, being able to hit full shots, where as longer hitters have to learn to hit 3/4 half shots effectively. Which at our level, the most comfortable shot is a full shot.

Its a sweeping statement because its the truth!
If everyone was 10% shorter then there is less of a real distance between players shots.
Bringing in other facets of the game blurs the lines. This is purely a thread about distance.

TheDoc

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Said the same to a lad the other day.

Out of say 36 shots we take to green - how many do amateurs genuinely hit perfect - I said for me it is about 10 to 20 %.

The pros are almost all perfect.

I think golf digest or somthing like that did a brilliant piece last year.

Wedge play has become one of the most critically important parts of a pro's arsenal, and they did analysis against 10 proffesionals and 10 amateurs. As you could imagine, the amateurs were all over the shop and the pros were so precise it was scary.

It's definitly something I've been trying to work on, and alas getting lessons for it as I can't figure it out for myself.

Serious issue with distance control and spin control for me

FixdePitchmark

Interesting stuff.

http://www.nicklaus.com/news/jack-nicklaus-golf-balls-now-available/

I would tend to agree that long courses are a disaster for slow play.

I hit the ball far enough - but prefer a course I am forced to hit irons off the tee and mid irons in.

These championship courses that lads go and join , are a bit daft for the amount of golf I play.

I want 3 hours , no looking for balls.

Yes the odd test with driver, but maybe 4 drives a round max. God - I have changed. But it is more a time issue.

TheDoc

Russman wrote: »

True enough.
I guess it begs the question, as a result of modern equipment/ball developments etc, are many club golfers playing off the wrong tees ? Could that issue be solved by simply playing more forward tees ? If you're going to dial everything back, it'd be, in theory, the exact same game as now, but just played on a smaller plot of land.....?
I dunno, its a good debate though.

I know in my club they removed what used to be forward tees, and our member stakes are now nearly on par with the white stakes. There is only a handful of holes that have a big difference, and even I can only think of our 14th which has maybe 30 yards difference. The rest is between 5-10 yards in difference.

I remember when playing of the whites "used" to be perceived as difficult, have to say doesnt seem that way aymore considering our yellows(members) tees are pretty much the same.

If equipment regulations came in that slashed distance accross the board, I'm sure in our club the tees would move back to where they were circa early 00's.

FixdePitchmark

TheDoc wrote: »

I think golf digest or somthing like that did a brilliant piece last year.

Wedge play has become one of the most critically important parts of a pro's arsenal, and they did analysis against 10 proffesionals and 10 amateurs. As you could imagine, the amateurs were all over the shop and the pros were so precise it was scary.

It's definitly something I've been trying to work on, and alas getting lessons for it as I can't figure it out for myself.

Serious issue with distance control and spin control for me

Join the queue Doc.

Honestly thinking of just leaving myself about 140 out. That is how bad it has gone.

TheDoc

GreeBo wrote: »

Its a sweeping statement because its the truth!
If everyone was 10% shorter then there is less of a real distance between players shots.
Bringing in other facets of the game blurs the lines. This is purely a thread about distance.

I don't understand what you mean.

If we took it as a flat percentage which you are making it out to be ( I see your other post about ratios, but not sure that makes sense to me either)

Player A hits the ball 300 yards
PLayer B hits the ball 280 yards

When you remove the 10% distance it's still roughly the same distance between the two, with player a having circa 20 yards advantage.

I know there is A LOT of mitigating factors, ball strike, flight, all the stuff that determines if a player is actually getting the advantage from the technology, but if we are to keep it simple probably makes sense to talk flat percentages or figures.

Because it's argueable that the distance gain between player a and b, could be solely down to ability, swing and ball striking, and nothing to do with technology.

The problem we run into here is every golfer is different in terms of swing, physical build and all that stuff. Like I know my extra distance comes from the fact I've big shoulders, and hit a draw, and not because I have a great ball strike.

FixdePitchmark

As energy is a squared relationship. A change in velocity of the ball would not bring distance back in a linear way. So using a % is not the right way to look at it.

A change could be made that would bring the higher velocity back more. When all velocity was reduced.

Milkers

Increased driver head size with trampoline faces and lightweight shafts have also contributed heavily I would say.