Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

TheDoc

Also just caught the OPs response there in relation to the committees response.

That is disgusting stuff.

Montgolfier

Why should the OP have to prove it? He called the rule on him.
The guy went into the pro shop but never proved his innocence when he had the chance.
He left the course with the driver in question.

SaveOurLyric

Montgolfier wrote: »

Why should the OP have to prove it? He called the rule on him.
The guy went into the pro shop but never proved his innocence when he had the chance.
He left the course with the driver in question.

Nonsense. Of course he has to prove it. You cannot make allegations without external proof if the opponent denies it and simply expect to be taken at your word and the he not. Burden to prove is with the accuser.

The committee has made the correct, and only, decision they could. They listened to the complaint, and checked with the accused. He gave an explanation. They cannot 'convict' him simply because it disagrees with the OP contention. (Not that I doubt the OP at all. The opponent sounds like a real scoundrel. But unfortunately the chance has probably passed to catch him in this instance).

tayto lover

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Nonsense. Of course he has to prove it. You cannot make allegations without external proof if the opponent denies it and simply expect to be taken at your word and the he not. Burden to prove is with the accuser.

The committee has made the correct, and only, decision they could. They listened to the complaint, and checked with the accused. He gave an explanation. They cannot 'convict' him simply because it disagrees with the OP contention. (Not that I doubt the OP at all. The opponent sounds like a real scoundrel. But unfortunately the chance has probably passed to catch him in this instance).

The OP should have gone into the pro-shop with the alleged cheat and had the employee note the make and model of club used. He now has no proof.

SaveOurLyric

tayto lover wrote: »

The OP should have gone into the pro-shop with the alleged cheat and had the employee note the make and model of club used. He now has no proof.

Easy in hindsight I guess. I wouldnt blame the OP. It not an easy situation to get right when you are thrown into it thinking you were just going for a fun round of golf.

namloc1980

tayto lover wrote: »

The OP should have gone into the pro-shop with the alleged cheat and had the employee note the make and model of club used. He now has no proof.

Unfortunately the OP has now been put in the eye of the storm by this guy's lack of honesty and integrity. OP has to now take this to a full committee hearing but knowing he has little chance to win. Hopefully this guy gets hammered in the next round 10&8 with his 'Titleist' driver!!

Montgolfier

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Nonsense. Of course he has to prove it. You cannot make allegations without external proof if the opponent denies it and simply expect to be taken at your word and the he not. Burden to prove is with the accuser.

The committee has made the correct, and only, decision they could. They listened to the complaint, and checked with the accused. He gave an explanation. They cannot 'convict' him simply because it disagrees with the OP contention. (Not that I doubt the OP at all. The opponent sounds like a real scoundrel. But unfortunately the chance has probably passed to catch him in this instance).

It's not nonsense!!
Why didn't the accused clear his name at the pro shop?
If this your opinion then no rule is sacred, all any cheat has to do is deny deny.

Of course there is an onus on the accused to prove his innocence after the accusation.
Instead he said how dare you accuse me and left.
The next time someone claims I played the wrong ball, should I say how dare you!!! Or just show them the ball.

This is not a court of law it's a question of integrity and that didn't show any.

SaveOurLyric

Montgolfier wrote: »

It's not nonsense!!
Why didn't the accused clear his name at the pro shop?
If this your opinion then no rule is sacred, all any cheat has to do is deny deny.

Of course there is an onus on the accused to prove his innocence after the accusation.
Instead he said how dare you accuse me and left.
The next time someone claims I played the wrong ball, should I say how dare you!!! Or just show them the ball.

This is not a court of law it's a question of integrity and that didn't show any.

Because he is a cheat and chose a much better course of action in that context : fly off the handle, be insulted, outraged, and storm off with the evidence. Well played.

It could quickly end up in a real court of law if you kept up that line. Neither fun nor cheap.

mister gullible

Because the guy had a non conforming club the OP had the options of calling it straight away or saying after the round "well done but I think your driver is non conforming - maybe you should check it before the next match" (which is what I might have done). In any case the OP was right whichever he did. Many of us had to spend a few quid to change our drivers a long time ago in order to play by the rules! Good second hand conforming drivers can be had very cheaply now. If the opponent was genuine he would have said "Jeez I didn't know it was non conforming, what should we do?" instead of which he turns out to be (apparently) a bully, liar and a cheapskate. OP cannot make much more progress on this in my opinion and should probably let it drop. Hopefully his fellow members will know already what his opponent is like. I'd stay in the club but I'd certainly wait for an opportunity to trip the inglorious b.. up!

Dayor Knight

This case raises an interesting question. In a matchplay competition, what happens if two opponent can't agree on who won a match, for any reason, e.g. He put a ball out of bounds on the ninth and lost the hole...... No I didn't, I had a par and win the hole. Sounds ludicrous, but in way it's like what has now happened here. How can anyone say who us telling the truth. Can a result be declared based on one parties story only??

Russman

Dayor Knight wrote: »

This case raises an interesting question. In a matchplay competition, what happens if two opponent can't agree on who won a match, for any reason, e.g. He put a ball out of bounds on the ninth and lost the hole...... No I didn't, I had a par and win the hole. Sounds ludicrous, but in way it's like what has now happened here. How can anyone say who us telling the truth. Can a result be declared based on one parties story only??

I've no idea how that situation, however unlikely, would be resolved, can you imagine a club committee trying to sort it out ??:)
Fortunately or unfortunately (whichever way you look at it I guess), golf genuinely depends on the integrity of the players, there's no referees a la soccer, rugby etc. I think its a good thing. I'd hate to see the sport go the way of other sports where cheating is rife and accepted. Of course golf's not perfect and there are bad apples, but hopefully they stay a tiny minority.

decko11

Russman wrote: »

I've no idea how that situation, however unlikely, would be resolved, can you imagine a club committee trying to sort it out ??:)
Fortunately or unfortunately (whichever way you look at it I guess), golf genuinely depends on the integrity of the players, there's no referees a la soccer, rugby etc. I think its a good thing. I'd hate to see the sport go the way of other sports where cheating is rife and accepted. Of course golf's not perfect and there are bad apples, but hopefully they stay a tiny minority.

Why then is the comp sec taking one competitors word against another in this case

It seems a total cop out - at a minimum both should be interviewed by a sub committee

tayto lover

decko11 wrote: »

Why then is the comp sec taking one competitors word against another in this case

It seems a total cop out - at a minimum both should be interviewed by a sub committee

It is up to the accuser to prove the case. No proof = no case.

Golfnut77

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm one of those that tends to let things like this slide, but mention it either when I notice it, or afterwards. It's one of those things though thats different between players.

Really? I always call players when their breaking a rule, how else will they learn?

Although one time I was playing with a guy and I went in a water hazard and took a drop using approximate line of sight since I couldn't be sure where it crossed since it was a snap hook, this ended up putting me on the other side of the water hazard and within the rules as I understood them, I was relatively new to golf at the time and my playing partner told me I was incorrect and needed to go back from point of entry ( this meant not keeping point of entry between me and the flag ) he was adament and so I took his advice, checked afterwards and I was initially correct and so incurred 2 stroke penalty for taking his advice.

So when I pull someone on a rule it's only when I'm 100% sure as I wouldn't want to be giving incorrect information.

Dtoffee

Just a quick question for all those who would ignore a player / opponent using an illegal club ..... what would it take for you to call foul? does it depend on the comp? or does it depend on the player in question?

I have been on both sides of this fence and certainly take no exception to any opponent bringing up the rules during a match / competition. I believe it is in the interests of all golfers to know and impose the rules of the game at all times. I called a guy for fudging once, he was marking his ball from the side and then replacing the ball in front of the marker ..... max gain about half an inch but it was his thing and he went balistic, missing putt after putt once it was called. I later found out that loads of people knew he did it, but were afraid to call it and it became an established practice for him. I think some players just get into bad habits and it is up to all of us call a foul no matter how minor it is, because the integrity of the game needs to be maintained.

slave1

OP, this has turned nasty and I honestly don't think you have independant proof of the club in question. However your integrity is in question and if I were you I would formally (in writing) write to the officer in question and ask what is their formal appeal route as you wish to take the matter further.
I would not at this stage make any other comment.
I do think that when the time comes you need to stress that your opponent was asked to show the club in question to an independant third party but refused to do so and left the club without fulfilling your request.
You also need to decide on how far you're willing to go with it.
I know of one or two occasions where folk were effectively bullied on the course and when they reported the matter were not looked on at all negatively by the members (can't say same for committee).
Whatever you decide to do its just a damn shame that someone could act in this manner, a liar and a cheat has to be the worst qualities I despise in a person.
Chin up.

GreeBo

Montgolfier wrote: »

It's not nonsense!!
Why didn't the accused clear his name at the pro shop?
If this your opinion then no rule is sacred, all any cheat has to do is deny deny.

Of course there is an onus on the accused to prove his innocence after the accusation.
Instead he said how dare you accuse me and left.
The next time someone claims I played the wrong ball, should I say how dare you!!! Or just show them the ball.

This is not a court of law it's a question of integrity and that didn't show any.

Huh?
How could it work your way? Of course the accuser has to prove his case!

I saw you using an illegal wedge the other day, and you putted anchored and your driver had a COR of 100.

Now, go prove me wrong and let us know how you get on.

gokster

Unfortunately the OP has become of victim of a major difficulty within golf (not sure if its particular to ireland) but there is mentality to take golf disputes to the high court which makes clubs very reluctant to intervene unless there is a cast iron case.

When you have the ridiculous situation of a person taking a club to court over a handicap cut you can see why clubs will be nervous in terms of the negative publicity and not insignificant cost of taking on these guys.

I know of a number of instances in one on one situations where 'cheats' have not been tackled as there is no proof. The OP was never going to win his match in this case and the only way would have been to take the opportunity to ask the question in front of a witness who was prepared to make a statement on the issue.

Its a great disappointment that clubs who should be guardians of the rules of golf and protecting the golfer but can't do that while the legal route is left open to these people who ruin it for so many others.

Russman

Dtoffee wrote: »

Just a quick question for all those who would ignore a player / opponent using an illegal club ..... what would it take for you to call foul? does it depend on the comp? or does it depend on the player in question?

For me it depends on the circumstances. I wouldn't really ignore anything in strokeplay, I'd have to be absolutely 100% sure I saw something though, but in matchplay, as there is an element of discretion and judgement built into the rules, I'd judge each situation on its merits.

If it materially and undoubtedly effects the match, or my opponents playing, I'd be more likely to call something as opposed to a breach that is questionable or tenuous as to whether it had any impact. eg in a match I've ignored a guy knocking a tiny leaf off a tree on his practice swing, he had no idea he did it and there was nothing to be gained from running over penalising him. Now, if he'd knocked a branch off I might judge it differently.
Generally I'd do my best not to call something in a match, unless its really taking the p1ss as I don't need the aggro that always follows regardless.

Whilst not advocating breaking the rules, I'd hate to turn into one of those people who you just know are only waiting to see an infringement so they can call it.

Russman

gokster wrote: »

Unfortunately the OP has become of victim of a major difficulty within golf (not sure if its particular to ireland) but there is mentality to take golf disputes to the high court which makes clubs very reluctant to intervene unless there is a cast iron case.

When you have the ridiculous situation of a person taking a club to court over a handicap cut you can see why clubs will be nervous in terms of the negative publicity and not insignificant cost of taking on these guys.

I know of a number of instances in one on one situations where 'cheats' have not been tackled as there is no proof. The OP was never going to win his match in this case and the only way would have been to take the opportunity to ask the question in front of a witness who was prepared to make a statement on the issue.

Its a great disappointment that clubs who should be guardians of the rules of golf and protecting the golfer but can't do that while the legal route is left open to these people who ruin it for so many others.

Absolutely.
Its not really the same as the op's situation, but we had a case a long number of years ago when spotters were sent out on the course to subtly monitor a particular team in a team event. The scores on the card didn't match up with what had been observed on a few holes, but when challenged about it they took the route of "ohh yeah, jeez, you're right, that was a 6 not a 5, sorry, my mistake...." What do you do ?
Very hard to "prove" cheating in this day and age, with the legal eagles never too far away. I should add that 2 members of that team genuinely hadn't a clue there was anything untoward going on.

spacecoyote

Russman wrote: »

For me it depends on the circumstances. I wouldn't really ignore anything in strokeplay, I'd have to be absolutely 100% sure I saw something though, but in matchplay, as there is an element of discretion and judgement built into the rules, I'd judge each situation on its merits.

If it materially and undoubtedly effects the match, or my opponents playing, I'd be more likely to call something as opposed to a breach that is questionable or tenuous as to whether it had any impact. eg in a match I've ignored a guy knocking a tiny leaf off a tree on his practice swing, he had no idea he did it and there was nothing to be gained from running over penalising him. Now, if he'd knocked a branch off I might judge it differently.
Generally I'd do my best not to call something in a match, unless its really taking the p1ss as I don't need the aggro that always follows regardless.

Whilst not advocating breaking the rules, I'd hate to turn into one of those people who you just know are only waiting to see an infringement so they can call it.

Just an FYI, there's no infringement for clipping a single leaf on a practice swing, it has to be deemed to be improving your lie to be subject to a penalty

newport2

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely.
Its not really the same as the op's situation, but we had a case a long number of years ago when spotters were sent out on the course to subtly monitor a particular team in a team event. The scores on the card didn't match up with what had been observed on a few holes, but when challenged about it they took the route of "ohh yeah, jeez, you're right, that was a 6 not a 5, sorry, my mistake...." What do you do ?
Very hard to "prove" cheating in this day and age, with the legal eagles never too far away. I should add that 2 members of that team genuinely hadn't a clue there was anything untoward going on.

This. It's amazing how many grown men lose the ability to count past 5 when they take up golf......

ForeRight

You only have to look at that case from the hermitage couple of years ago to see how hard it is to confront anyone in a golf club regarding cheating/handicaps etc

Law suit for a million euro over his handicap being cut on observation or something along those lines as far as I remember.

Slicemeister

spacecoyote wrote: »

Just an FYI, there's no infringement for clipping a single leaf on a practice swing, it has to be deemed to be improving your lie to be subject to a penalty

Apologies for taking this OT OP,can you quote that rule please? News to me too. Thanks.

SnowDrifts

Slicemeister wrote: »

Apologies for taking this OT OP,can you quote that rule please? News to me too. Thanks.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-13/#d13-2-0.5

Q.Rule 13-2 prohibits a player from improving certain areas. What does "improve" mean?

A.In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.

Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

....................

>accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected

blackwhite

Slicemeister wrote: »

Apologies for taking this OT OP,can you quote that rule please? News to me too. Thanks.

Decisions related to rule 13-2

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=13&subRuleNum=2&decisionId=440BC525-92A9-46AA-A44C-F56E4D9CACC5

In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.
Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:
repairs a small pitch-mark on his line of play five yards in front of his ball prior to making a 150-yard approach shot from through the green;
accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected; or
whose ball lies in thick rough 180 yards from the green, walks forward and pulls strands of grass on his line of play and tosses them in the air to determine the direction of the wind.

EDIT - Snowdrifts beat me to it

Montgolfier

GreeBo wrote: »

Huh?
How could it work your way? Of course the accuser has to prove his case!

I saw you using an illegal wedge the other day, and you putted anchored and your driver had a COR of 100.

Now, go prove me wrong and let us know how you get on.

What should he do, wrestle the driver off the guy?
All I'm saying is every other rule, that you may break doesn't have to be proven. How could it? You accidentally grounded your club in a hazard. Response would be "no I didn't prove it."

Shady Tady

I'm not one for backing down normally but I don't see how the OP can win this one in the long run. His aim now should be to preserve his integrity and turn a difficult situation to his advantage. The OP knows the club was illegal, the other player knows it was illegal, the committee know it but won't / can't deal with it and the club membership will deep down know it was. I'd write back to the committee and stand by my allegation, I'd note their reluctance to deal with it and point out to them that they are letting the membership of the club and the ethos of the game down and the integrity of their club cup. I leave it at that and move on. I'd gladly face any of them in the clubhouse and hold my head up high, move on you are not the one who did wrong! Go win the captains prize!

Montgolfier

Shady Tady wrote: »

I'm not one for backing down normally but I don't see how the OP can win this one in the long run. His aim now should be to preserve his integrity and turn a difficult situation to his advantage. The OP knows the club was illegal, the other player knows it was illegal, the committee know it but won't / can't deal with it and the club membership will deep down know it was. I'd write back to the committee and stand by my allegation, I'd note their reluctance to deal with it and point out to them that they are letting the membership of the club and the ethos of the game down and the integrity of their club cup. I leave it at that and move on. I'd gladly face any of them in the clubhouse and hold my head up high, move on you are not the one who did wrong! Go win the captains prize!

+1 I agree, that makes a lot of sense.

newport2

Montgolfier wrote: »

What should he do, wrestle the driver off the guy?
All I'm saying is every other rule, that you may break doesn't have to be proven. How could it? You accidentally grounded your club in a hazard. Response would be "no I didn't prove it."

That's golf though. If you see someone break the rules, I guess if they adamantly deny it, then it's your word against their's unless there was a witness that backs you up.

The OP's opponent cheated. He could just have easily accused the OP of cheating had the OP won fairly, making up some breach of a rule during the round. Then what? DQ the OP although he never cheated?

Golf is very open to cheats taking advantage of it. Short of CCTV all over the course, there's no real solution other than to take people at their word.

Thankfully I've never come across anyone intentionally cheating in 15 years of the game. (except a few that intentionally return bad scores to increase handicap, but that's another story) That said, I've never checked an opponent's equipment and wouldn't recognise a non-conforming driver if I saw one.

(BTW, I think the committee should have smelt a rat when he said he was using a Cobra headcover on a Titleist driver. Who would do that? Like using a Toyota's body to house a Ferrari's engine IMO.....:D)