Rules query re fourball matchplay

blue note

I have a rules question. I lost a fourball matchplay a couple of weeks ago. On the 16th green we were level and had putts from about 4 and 6 feet from the same line for par to keep it level.

After missing mine I told my playing partner that it was about a cup to the right of break and touched the ground beside the cup saying to aim about there. Our opponent claimed the hole telling us that you are not allowed to touch the ground with the putter when giving a line (you'd be allowed to hover it). Obviously I was unaware that there was any rule in relation to this. We accepted what he said and went onto the next one down.

It has since been said to me that it is only a foul if you touch the line of the putt which I did not. Does anyone know the exact rule for this?

ForeRight

You are not allowed touch the line of the intended putt.

You touched the ground beside the hole telling your partner to aim for that point so I can see why you were pulled on it.

Personally it's not something I would pull someone on but people are within their right too.

blue note

?

blue note

Actually, I found the rule and it's fairly clear. You can't touch the green when giving a line. Sure I'll know for next time.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-08/

cairny

I'm pretty sure that the rule is you're not allowed to touch the putting surface when indicating a line not just the actual line itself with the only exception being for those (like me) that put putter in front of ball before making putt as long as you don't press down. Rule 8-2b

Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that.

namloc1980

Rule 8-2

b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting

SaveOurLyric

cairny wrote: »

Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that.

We would all prefer to win with the two iron across the water, into the wind, to two feet. But if you are playing by the rules of golf you gotta take the win with a green touch if thats the way it comes.

cairny

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

We would all prefer to win with the two iron across the water, into the wind, to two feet. But if you are playing by the rules of golf you gotta take the win with a green touch if thats the way it comes.

Poetry aside your answer to my question is "Me", fair enough that's your entitlement and I'd have no issue shaking hands and wishing you well, I disagree that 'you gotta take the win', you can but you don't 'gotta'.

Norfolk Enchants_

cairny wrote: »

Poetry aside your answer to my question is "Me", fair enough that's your entitlement and I'd have no issue shaking hands and wishing you well, I disagree that 'you gotta take the win', you can but you don't 'gotta'.

I think if an opponent is naive enough to present an opportunity like the one described by the OP, you'd be rather foolish not to accept it.

GreeBo

cairny wrote: »

Poetry aside your answer to my question is "Me", fair enough that's your entitlement and I'd have no issue shaking hands and wishing you well, I disagree that 'you gotta take the win', you can but you don't 'gotta'.

You either play by all the rules or not all at. Otherwise where you draw the line might be different than the next guy, then what?you ok with him giving his ball a little kick out of the rough?

mags1962

I thought that one does have to take it as ignoring a rule of golf is in itself a breech of the rules and would lead to disqualification for both in a matchplay situation?

cairny

GreeBo wrote: »

You either play by all the rules or not all at. Otherwise where you draw the line might be different than the next guy, then what?you ok with him giving his ball a little kick out of the rough?

I agree.....to a point; in a field event etc you are a referee for the field and have no discretion and I would (I hope) penalise someone who did what the OP did. "Claiming" the hole in matchplay is different imho, I'm open to correction but I don't think you 'have' to claim the hole and I think you're allowed to exercise sportsmanship in this specific scenario.

GreeBo

cairny wrote: »

I agree.....to a point; in a field event etc you are a referee for the field and have no discretion and I would (I hope) penalise someone who did what the OP did. "Claiming" the hole in matchplay is different imho, I'm open to correction but I don't think you 'have' to claim the hole and I think you're allowed to exercise sportsmanship in this specific scenario.

Loss of hole is the result putter the rules of golf though.
You don't claim it, your opponent gives it up.

SaveOurLyric

mags1962 wrote: »

I thought that one does have to take it as ignoring a rule of golf is in itself a breech of the rules and would lead to disqualification for both in a matchplay situation?

Not in this case. That disqualification applies if both parties agree to break a rule.

Not calling the penalty on the opposition in the case cited makes a joke of the game and leads to an unjust result - why play at all ?

cairny

GreeBo wrote: »

Loss of hole is the result putter the rules of golf though.
You don't claim it, your opponent gives it up.

Huh? You'd have to claim it, other player will (pretty much) always babe unaware if the infringement.

agusta

cairny wrote: »

I agree.....to a point; in a field event etc you are a referee for the field and have no discretion and I would (I hope) penalise someone who did what the OP did. "Claiming" the hole in matchplay is different imho, I'm open to correction but I don't think you 'have' to claim the hole and I think you're allowed to exercise sportsmanship in this specific scenario.

No,you dont have to claim the hole.The person who touched the green was naive and didnt know the rule.Of course right being right the person should have known the rule.It would have been a good act of sportmanship if they didnt claim the hole but in this case they did!

I would claim the hole if i was playing an experienced golfer who should know the basic rules but i wouldnt claim it against a newcomer to the game

agusta

An example "Greatest act of sportsmanship in the history of golf"http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/golfs-proudest-moment-took-place-muirfields-mens-room

And there was a golf rule broken!

agusta

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/golfs-proudest-moment-took-place-muirfields-mens-room

ForeRight

agusta wrote: »

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/golfs-proudest-moment-took-place-muirfields-mens-room

That's amazing I've never heard that before

shane 007

Great inspiring storey. Thanks for sharing it.

Carpo86

The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.

namloc1980

Carpo86 wrote: »

The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.

In that case both sides would be disqualified as they would have agreed to waive a Rule of Golf per rule 1-3:

1-3. Agreement To Waive Rules
Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3:

Match play – Disqualification of both sides;

Stroke play – Disqualification of competitors concerned.

SaveOurLyric

Carpo86 wrote: »

The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.

I dont think anyone has suggested you would be in breach of the rules. Only that to not apply a penalty correctly is ignoring a rule - fine as long as you are happy to apply the rules a-la-carte and dont kid yourself that you are playing golf correctly.

If you tell your opponent of the rule and decline to enforce then you are now indeed both guilty of knowingly agreeing not to play according to the rules and so are both disqualified.

blue note

Thanks for the replies.

To be honest, I was just concerned when I thought I might have been called up on a rule incorrectly. That would have annoyed me. However, the call was correct so he was within his rights to call it. Obliged to call it is nonsense, it was the first round of a club match play. If people want to leave opponents off over things like that, I have no problem with it, but I'm not going to worry about someone using the rule either.

What I am annoyed at is 3 putting on the 20th hole for bogey to lose the match. C'est la vie.

Carpo86

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I dont think anyone has suggested you would be in breach of the rules. Only that to not apply a penalty correctly is ignoring a rule - fine as long as you are happy to apply the rules a-la-carte and dont kid yourself that you are playing golf correctly.

If you tell your opponent of the rule and decline to enforce then you are now indeed both guilty of knowingly agreeing not to play according to the rules and so are both disqualified.

After some reading it would be appear that while I can choose to not apply the rule I should not mention this to my opponent (or at least not until he has teed off on the next hole) as this would indeed constitute an agreement to waive the rule which is indeed grounds for disqualification. Mea Culpa on that one.

I still think that to suggest that not taking the hole in this case means that I would be kidding myself if I thought I was playing golf correctly is faintly ridiculous though. Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.

ChippingSodbury

Carpo86 wrote: »

The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.

I'd love to know where all of these "interpretations" of the rules come from! You cannot knowingly allow an opponent to break the rules: it's black and white in rule 1-3.
I would always try and intervene/ offer advice before an opponent does something silly that I would know to be a breach of the rules. I consider that to be sportsmanship: it's too late after the event.

Carpo86

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

I'd love to know where all of these "interpretations" of the rules come from! You cannot knowingly allow an opponent to break the rules: it's black and white in rule 1-3.
I would always try and intervene/ offer advice before an opponent does something silly that I would know to be a breach of the rules. I consider that to be sportsmanship: it's too late after the event.

Sure, but in this case it probably would not have been possible to intervene in advance. Your options are to say nothing and hence not enforce a penalty or to take the hole. The only thing you can't do, it would appear, is to (as I mistakenly suggested) tell your opponents you were aware of the rule breach and agree to waive the rule with them.

namloc1980

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

I'd love to know where all of these "interpretations" of the rules come from! You cannot knowingly allow an opponent to break the rules: it's black and white in rule 1-3.
I would always try and intervene/ offer advice before an opponent does something silly that I would know to be a breach of the rules. I consider that to be sportsmanship: it's too late after the event.

In match play you can ignore a rules breach by an opponent by basically turning a blind eye and not mentioning it per rule 2-5

Note 1: A player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponent provided there is no agreement by the sides to waive a Rule (Rule 1-3).

Of course in stroke play you can't ignore a rules breach.

Carpo86

namloc1980 wrote: »

In match play you can ignore a rules breach by an opponent by basically turning a blind eye and not mentioning it per rule 2-5



Of course in stroke play you can't ignore a rules breach.

That sounds sensible.

SaveOurLyric

1) Opponent touches green indicating line of putt. Didnt know the rules.....could say its in his control and his fault....but let it slide.

2) Opponent startled by a shout from a neighboring tee clearly mis****s a putt attempt as a result. Roll the ball back to him and give him another go ? He was an unlucky victim of bad timing outside his control. Only sporting to give him a second go ? Or give him the hole maybe ? Its only sporting.

Carpo86

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

1) Opponent touches green indicating line of putt. Didnt know the rules.....could say its in his control and his fault....but let it slide.

2) Opponent startled by a shout from a neighboring tee while clearly mis****s a putt attempt as a result. Roll the ball back to him and give him another go ? He was an unlucky victim of bad timing outside his control. Only sporting to give him a second go ? Or give him the hole maybe ? Its only sporting.

Well I suppose that's a judgement call on your part.

agusta

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

I'd love to know where all of these "interpretations" of the rules come from! You cannot knowingly allow an opponent to break the rules: it's black and white in rule 1-3.
I would always try and intervene/ offer advice before an opponent does something silly that I would know to be a breach of the rules. I consider that to be sportsmanship: it's too late after the event.

slightly incorrect for matchplay

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2013_04_01_archive.html

cairny

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

1) Opponent touches green indicating line of putt. Didnt know the rules.....could say its in his control and his fault....but let it slide.

2) Opponent startled by a shout from a neighboring tee while clearly mis****s a putt attempt as a result. Roll the ball back to him and give him another go ? He was an unlucky victim of bad timing outside his control. Only sporting to give him a second go ? Or give him the hole maybe ? Its only sporting.

Careful....rolling ball back to him could be a rules breach if you were still to putt

D Hayes

Barry Rhodes sent out an email on the topic of "Pressing down on a line of a putt" just a couple of days ago. Here's a link to it.

Well worth signing up to his newsletter - goes into a bit of detail if there were any rule-related incidents in the previous week's tour events.

Here's one of the funnier ones involving Larrazabal. Some die-hard spectators out there!

Dr_Colossus

cairny wrote: »

Careful....rolling ball back to him could be a rules breach if you were still to putt

I heard of such an incident in the singles matchplay in one Dublin club last year. Think it was the 16th and match all square and both players on the green in regulation, player A about 10 foot and player B let's say 30 foot. Player B hits a decent lag putt to about 3 feet and as he's walking up to his ball player A taps it back to him saying it's good. Good things were not to follow as player B then penalises player A for testing the green and claims the hole. All hell broke loose thereafter.

GreeBo

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

I heard of such an incident in the singles matchplay in one Dublin club last year. Think it was the 16th and match all square and both players on the green in regulation, player A about 10 foot and player B let's say 30 foot. Player B hits a decent lag putt to about 3 feet and as he's walking up to his ball player A taps it back to him saying it's good. Good things were not to follow as player B then penalises player A for testing the green and claims the hole. All hell broke loose thereafter.

It's up to the player themselves as to whether or not they were testing the green.

ForeRight

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

I heard of such an incident in the singles matchplay in one Dublin club last year. Think it was the 16th and match all square and both players on the green in regulation, player A about 10 foot and player B let's say 30 foot. Player B hits a decent lag putt to about 3 feet and as he's walking up to his ball player A taps it back to him saying it's good. Good things were not to follow as player B then penalises player A for testing the green and claims the hole. All hell broke loose thereafter.

There are some out and out bankers with a W playing this game. Claiming a hole like that is cringe worthy and if highly embarrassing

SnowDrifts

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

I heard of such an incident in the singles matchplay in one Dublin club last year. Think it was the 16th and match all square and both players on the green in regulation, player A about 10 foot and player B let's say 30 foot. Player B hits a decent lag putt to about 3 feet and as he's walking up to his ball player A taps it back to him saying it's good. Good things were not to follow as player B then penalises player A for testing the green and claims the hole. All hell broke loose thereafter.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#d16-1d-1

16-1d/1
Player Concedes Opponent's Next Stroke and Rolls or Knocks Ball to Opponent

Q.A player concedes his opponent's next stroke and either picks up the opponent's ball and rolls it to the opponent or knocks it back to him with a club. The player did so only for the purpose of returning the opponent's ball to him, not to test the surface of the putting green. Was the player in breach of Rule 16-1d (Testing Surface)?

A.No. Such casual action is not a breach of Rule 16-1d.

16-1d/2
Player Concedes Opponent's Next Stroke and Knocks His Ball Away Along Own Line of Putt

Q.A player concedes his opponent's next stroke and knocks his ball away on the same line on which he (the player) must subsequently putt. Is this a breach of Rule 16-1d?

A.It is a question of fact whether or not the player's action was for the purpose of testing the surface of the putting green. The manner and apparent purpose of the action would be the determining factors in each individual case.

Dr_Colossus

SnowDrifts wrote: »

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#d16-1d-1

Interesting. To be honest I never heard what the final outcome of the case was, it nearly came to a bust up and the situation went before the committee/council for a decision which appeared to take forever (I played with player A in the interim between the fabled matchplay match and the decision which was still pending at the time).

SnowDrifts

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Interesting. To be honest I never heard what the final outcome of the case was, it nearly came to a bust up and the situation went before the committee/council for a decision which appeared to take forever (I played with player A in the interim between the fabled matchplay match and the decision which was still pending at the time).

Sad way for a match to be decided. The problem with the rules of golf is that a lot of important aspects to a said rule are contained within the decisions and they are very difficult to look up during play.

Tiger Mcilroy

cairny wrote: »

Careful....rolling ball back to him could be a rules breach if you were still to putt

I know a match in my club was claimed on the 18h when somebody rolled the ball back to his opponent after conceding the 1 footer left.

Arsenium

So is it a case, in matchplay, that if I see a breach of rules by my opponent and I fully believe it is as a result of not understanding the rule rather than deliberate, I can choose to ignore the breach of rule so long as I dont mention it to my opponent, in which case we would both be disqualified?

And then, once my opponent plays his first shot on the next hole, it is ok to mention it?

PARlance

Arsenium wrote: »

So is it a case, in matchplay, that if I see a breach of rules by my opponent and I fully believe it is as a result of not understanding the rule rather than deliberate, I can choose to ignore the breach of rule so long as I dont mention it to my opponent, in which case we would both be disqualified?

And then, once my opponent plays his first shot on the next hole, it is ok to mention it?

That's what I've gathered.
A minor detail but I think it's until the first person tees off on the next.

But as someone said before. Prob best to wait till everyone tees off so any discussion can take place while walking to second shots.

alxmorgan

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

I heard of such an incident in the singles matchplay in one Dublin club last year. Think it was the 16th and match all square and both players on the green in regulation, player A about 10 foot and player B let's say 30 foot. Player B hits a decent lag putt to about 3 feet and as he's walking up to his ball player A taps it back to him saying it's good. Good things were not to follow as player B then penalises player A for testing the green and claims the hole. All hell broke loose thereafter.

Dear Lord......for cases such as this what goes around comes around I think. If I ever even consider doing something like this you'll see my clubs on adverts within 20 mins.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Dear Lord......for cases such as this what goes around comes around I think. If I ever even consider doing something like this you'll see my clubs on adverts within 20 mins.

This is (one of the few!) places I think the rules work well.
The player themselves is the sole judge as to whether or not they were testing the green. The opposition can say what they want until they are blue in the face, you, the player decide.

I'd love that to happen to me in a match, believe it or not I can be quite stubborn, they'd never get me to concede the hole and I'd let them use their own anger on the remaining holes to beat them.

ForeRight

GreeBo wrote: »

This is (one of the few!) places I think the rules work well.
The player themselves is the sole judge as to whether or not they were testing the green. The opposition can say what they want until they are blue in the face, you, the player decide.

I'd love that to happen to me in a match, believe it or not I can be quite stubborn, they'd never get me to concede the hole and I'd let them use their own anger on the remaining holes to beat them.

I can just picture you saying no concession in your big black bold voice

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

This is (one of the few!) places I think the rules work well.
The player themselves is the sole judge as to whether or not they were testing the green. The opposition can say what they want until they are blue in the face, you, the player decide.

I'd love that to happen to me in a match, believe it or not I can be quite stubborn, they'd never get me to concede the hole and I'd let them use their own anger on the remaining holes to beat them.

Ah g'way o'r that :rolleyes:

yes there

What if you said to your opponent that what he done was a mistake and why. The result of which is cause for you to claim the hole or the opponent to concede the hole. Then your opponent offers to concede the hole which you do not accept. Would that be acceptable? I think it would as you are aknowledging the rule, both are not waiving the rule and the player is just showing some discretion.

Arsenium

yes there wrote: »

What if you said to your opponent that what he done was a mistake and why. The result of which is cause for you to claim the hole or the opponent to concede the hole. Then your opponent offers to concede the hole which you do not accept. Would that be acceptable? I think it would as you are aknowledging the rule, both are not waiving the rule and the player is just showing some discretion.

Interesting. I think once you acknowledge the breach of the rule, then the penalty automatically is loss of hole. I dont think you then have any discretion in the matter? To claim the hole or for your opponent to concede it.

If you then choose to waive the rule, both of you are then disqualified.

I could of course be wrong here.

Whyner

GreeBo wrote: »

You either play by all the rules or not all at. Otherwise where you draw the line might be different than the next guy, then what?you ok with him giving his ball a little kick out of the rough?

Have you ever knowingly turned a blind eye to someone who is breaking a rule?

I sure have and will continue to

namloc1980

yes there wrote: »

What if you said to your opponent that what he done was a mistake and why. The result of which is cause for you to claim the hole or the opponent to concede the hole. Then your opponent offers to concede the hole which you do not accept. Would that be acceptable? I think it would as you are aknowledging the rule, both are not waiving the rule and the player is just showing some discretion.

In that case you would both be disqualified. Once the breach is mentioned at the hole it must be claimed. If in that case you both moved onto the next hole and teed off you would have technically agreed to waive the Rule on the prior hole.