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Rules query re fourball matchplay

  • 03-07-2014 05:54PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭


    I have a rules question. I lost a fourball matchplay a couple of weeks ago. On the 16th green we were level and had putts from about 4 and 6 feet from the same line for par to keep it level.

    After missing mine I told my playing partner that it was about a cup to the right of break and touched the ground beside the cup saying to aim about there. Our opponent claimed the hole telling us that you are not allowed to touch the ground with the putter when giving a line (you'd be allowed to hover it). Obviously I was unaware that there was any rule in relation to this. We accepted what he said and went onto the next one down.

    It has since been said to me that it is only a foul if you touch the line of the putt which I did not. Does anyone know the exact rule for this?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    You are not allowed touch the line of the intended putt.

    You touched the ground beside the hole telling your partner to aim for that point so I can see why you were pulled on it.

    Personally it's not something I would pull someone on but people are within their right too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭blue note


    ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭blue note


    Actually, I found the rule and it's fairly clear. You can't touch the green when giving a line. Sure I'll know for next time.

    http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-08/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭cairny


    I'm pretty sure that the rule is you're not allowed to touch the putting surface when indicating a line not just the actual line itself with the only exception being for those (like me) that put putter in front of ball before making putt as long as you don't press down. Rule 8-2b

    Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,615 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Rule 8-2

    b. On the Putting Green
    When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    cairny wrote: »
    Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that.

    We would all prefer to win with the two iron across the water, into the wind, to two feet. But if you are playing by the rules of golf you gotta take the win with a green touch if thats the way it comes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭cairny


    We would all prefer to win with the two iron across the water, into the wind, to two feet. But if you are playing by the rules of golf you gotta take the win with a green touch if thats the way it comes.

    Poetry aside your answer to my question is "Me", fair enough that's your entitlement and I'd have no issue shaking hands and wishing you well, I disagree that 'you gotta take the win', you can but you don't 'gotta'. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Norfolk Enchants_


    cairny wrote: »
    Poetry aside your answer to my question is "Me", fair enough that's your entitlement and I'd have no issue shaking hands and wishing you well, I disagree that 'you gotta take the win', you can but you don't 'gotta'. :)
    I think if an opponent is naive enough to present an opportunity like the one described by the OP, you'd be rather foolish not to accept it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    cairny wrote: »
    Poetry aside your answer to my question is "Me", fair enough that's your entitlement and I'd have no issue shaking hands and wishing you well, I disagree that 'you gotta take the win', you can but you don't 'gotta'. :)

    You either play by all the rules or not all at. Otherwise where you draw the line might be different than the next guy, then what?you ok with him giving his ball a little kick out of the rough?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭mags1962


    I thought that one does have to take it as ignoring a rule of golf is in itself a breech of the rules and would lead to disqualification for both in a matchplay situation?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭cairny


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You either play by all the rules or not all at. Otherwise where you draw the line might be different than the next guy, then what?you ok with him giving his ball a little kick out of the rough?

    I agree.....to a point; in a field event etc you are a referee for the field and have no discretion and I would (I hope) penalise someone who did what the OP did. "Claiming" the hole in matchplay is different imho, I'm open to correction but I don't think you 'have' to claim the hole and I think you're allowed to exercise sportsmanship in this specific scenario.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    cairny wrote: »
    I agree.....to a point; in a field event etc you are a referee for the field and have no discretion and I would (I hope) penalise someone who did what the OP did. "Claiming" the hole in matchplay is different imho, I'm open to correction but I don't think you 'have' to claim the hole and I think you're allowed to exercise sportsmanship in this specific scenario.

    Loss of hole is the result putter the rules of golf though.
    You don't claim it, your opponent gives it up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    mags1962 wrote: »
    I thought that one does have to take it as ignoring a rule of golf is in itself a breech of the rules and would lead to disqualification for both in a matchplay situation?

    Not in this case. That disqualification applies if both parties agree to break a rule.

    Not calling the penalty on the opposition in the case cited makes a joke of the game and leads to an unjust result - why play at all ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭cairny


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Loss of hole is the result putter the rules of golf though.
    You don't claim it, your opponent gives it up.

    Huh? You'd have to claim it, other player will (pretty much) always babe unaware if the infringement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,590 ✭✭✭agusta


    cairny wrote: »
    I agree.....to a point; in a field event etc you are a referee for the field and have no discretion and I would (I hope) penalise someone who did what the OP did. "Claiming" the hole in matchplay is different imho, I'm open to correction but I don't think you 'have' to claim the hole and I think you're allowed to exercise sportsmanship in this specific scenario.
    No,you dont have to claim the hole.The person who touched the green was naive and didnt know the rule.Of course right being right the person should have known the rule.It would have been a good act of sportmanship if they didnt claim the hole but in this case they did!

    I would claim the hole if i was playing an experienced golfer who should know the basic rules but i wouldnt claim it against a newcomer to the game


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,590 ✭✭✭agusta


    An example "Greatest act of sportsmanship in the history of golf"http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/golfs-proudest-moment-took-place-muirfields-mens-room

    And there was a golf rule broken!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,590 ✭✭✭agusta




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    Great inspiring storey. Thanks for sharing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 176 ✭✭Carpo86


    The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

    If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,615 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Carpo86 wrote: »
    The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

    If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.

    In that case both sides would be disqualified as they would have agreed to waive a Rule of Golf per rule 1-3:
    1-3. Agreement To Waive Rules
    Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.

    PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3:

    Match play – Disqualification of both sides;

    Stroke play – Disqualification of competitors concerned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Carpo86 wrote: »
    The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

    If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.

    I dont think anyone has suggested you would be in breach of the rules. Only that to not apply a penalty correctly is ignoring a rule - fine as long as you are happy to apply the rules a-la-carte and dont kid yourself that you are playing golf correctly.

    If you tell your opponent of the rule and decline to enforce then you are now indeed both guilty of knowingly agreeing not to play according to the rules and so are both disqualified.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭blue note


    Thanks for the replies.

    To be honest, I was just concerned when I thought I might have been called up on a rule incorrectly. That would have annoyed me. However, the call was correct so he was within his rights to call it. Obliged to call it is nonsense, it was the first round of a club match play. If people want to leave opponents off over things like that, I have no problem with it, but I'm not going to worry about someone using the rule either.

    What I am annoyed at is 3 putting on the 20th hole for bogey to lose the match. C'est la vie.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 176 ✭✭Carpo86


    I dont think anyone has suggested you would be in breach of the rules. Only that to not apply a penalty correctly is ignoring a rule - fine as long as you are happy to apply the rules a-la-carte and dont kid yourself that you are playing golf correctly.

    If you tell your opponent of the rule and decline to enforce then you are now indeed both guilty of knowingly agreeing not to play according to the rules and so are both disqualified.

    After some reading it would be appear that while I can choose to not apply the rule I should not mention this to my opponent (or at least not until he has teed off on the next hole) as this would indeed constitute an agreement to waive the rule which is indeed grounds for disqualification. Mea Culpa on that one.

    I still think that to suggest that not taking the hole in this case means that I would be kidding myself if I thought I was playing golf correctly is faintly ridiculous though. Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭ChippingSodbury


    Carpo86 wrote: »
    The idea that by not claiming the hole in this scenario you would somehow be in breach of the rules is absurd. You could simply tell/remind your opponent of the rule but decline to enforce it in this instance. It is a matchplay event so there is no other 'field' who is suffering as a result of your decision to not take the hole.

    If you wish to take the hole that's fine, but to claim that not doing so is an egregious act on your own part is ridiculous.

    I'd love to know where all of these "interpretations" of the rules come from! You cannot knowingly allow an opponent to break the rules: it's black and white in rule 1-3.
    I would always try and intervene/ offer advice before an opponent does something silly that I would know to be a breach of the rules. I consider that to be sportsmanship: it's too late after the event.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 176 ✭✭Carpo86


    I'd love to know where all of these "interpretations" of the rules come from! You cannot knowingly allow an opponent to break the rules: it's black and white in rule 1-3.
    I would always try and intervene/ offer advice before an opponent does something silly that I would know to be a breach of the rules. I consider that to be sportsmanship: it's too late after the event.

    Sure, but in this case it probably would not have been possible to intervene in advance. Your options are to say nothing and hence not enforce a penalty or to take the hole. The only thing you can't do, it would appear, is to (as I mistakenly suggested) tell your opponents you were aware of the rule breach and agree to waive the rule with them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,615 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I'd love to know where all of these "interpretations" of the rules come from! You cannot knowingly allow an opponent to break the rules: it's black and white in rule 1-3.
    I would always try and intervene/ offer advice before an opponent does something silly that I would know to be a breach of the rules. I consider that to be sportsmanship: it's too late after the event.

    In match play you can ignore a rules breach by an opponent by basically turning a blind eye and not mentioning it per rule 2-5
    Note 1: A player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponent provided there is no agreement by the sides to waive a Rule (Rule 1-3).

    Of course in stroke play you can't ignore a rules breach.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 176 ✭✭Carpo86


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    In match play you can ignore a rules breach by an opponent by basically turning a blind eye and not mentioning it per rule 2-5



    Of course in stroke play you can't ignore a rules breach.

    That sounds sensible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    1) Opponent touches green indicating line of putt. Didnt know the rules.....could say its in his control and his fault....but let it slide.

    2) Opponent startled by a shout from a neighboring tee clearly mis****s a putt attempt as a result. Roll the ball back to him and give him another go ? He was an unlucky victim of bad timing outside his control. Only sporting to give him a second go ? Or give him the hole maybe ? Its only sporting.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 176 ✭✭Carpo86


    1) Opponent touches green indicating line of putt. Didnt know the rules.....could say its in his control and his fault....but let it slide.

    2) Opponent startled by a shout from a neighboring tee while clearly mis****s a putt attempt as a result. Roll the ball back to him and give him another go ? He was an unlucky victim of bad timing outside his control. Only sporting to give him a second go ? Or give him the hole maybe ? Its only sporting.

    Well I suppose that's a judgement call on your part.


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