Absolving yourself of parental responsibility.

Barely There

I know a couple with a 4-year old kid.
They've basically given into the child's demands since he was born. He runs around the place and does whatever he feels like doing. If he wants something he demands it, and if he doesn't get it straight away, he throws an almighty tantrum which always works.

Basically the kid is a right little terror - they can't bring him into a restaurant as he'll just run around causing havoc, even in shops he runs around grabbing stuff and screams at an ear-piercing loud volume if he can't have what he wants.
His diet is terrible - he demands sausages and chips every night - so of course that is what he eats.
They have raised a monster,

Last weekend they told me they were trying to have him assessed for ADHT.

I nearly spat my coffee out.

The way I see it, they're the reason that the child is 'wild', to put it mildly.
Now they're trying to get him diagnosed with a condition to absolve themselves of responsibility.

Anyone else see anything similar with parents?

eviltwin

Well firstly its important to bear in mind that ADHD, ADD, ODD are all real conditions and its easy to blame lazy parenting. Getting a diagnosis isn't about absolving yourself of responsibility but it can help you get supports that will help you and your child going forward. With these conditions early intervention is crucial so if they have any concerns they are right to get the child assessed. This idea that a doctor will just sign off a child as having a condition is bull. Its very hard to get a diagnosis, any decent doctor will look at everything else first before putting a medical name to the issue. If the child does have a condition then your friends need support and understanding, slagging them and their child off doesn't help.

Orion

eviltwin wrote: »

Well firstly its important to bear in mind that ADHD, ADD, ODD are all real conditions and its easy to blame lazy parenting.

You should have a look at this: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

eviltwin

Orion wrote: »

You should have a look at this: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

Can't watch it. What does it say?

endacl

eviltwin wrote: »

Well firstly its important to bear in mind that ADHD, ADD, ODD are all real conditions

So is BOLD...

Orion

This isn't so much a Parenting forum issue. I think it's a more societal thing so I'm going to move this to Humanities for a more general discussion than just parenting.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

eviltwin wrote: »

Can't watch it. What does it say?

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

Orion

eviltwin wrote: »

Can't watch it. What does it say?

It's worth watching at some stage if you can. It's Ken Robinson chamoioning a re-think of the educational model and goes into some discussion on the rise of ADHD and denies that it's an epidemic as it's called in some quarters. I'll see if I can find a transcript.

OldNotWIse

endacl wrote: »

So is BOLD...

Indeed. A lot of "my child would never do a thing like that" around now.

kippy

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

Aren't most behavioral based conditions a "recent thing" or perhaps the diagnosis of them?
Indeed a lot of medical conditions had to be named at some point in history and as such become a name referring to a the description of a biological and mental attributes which were outside of normal behavior/health?



I wouldn't call it a disease either by the way.

That said I'll take a look at the video when I get a chance.

I think a lot of the time as well, tbf to parents, when they take they kids out in public they are often too ashamed or worried to scold them or indeed leave them in a tantrum for too long in a public area for fear it would annoy some member of the PC/anti kids brigade and as such let them have what they want. They may in fact be using every tool available to them in private to assist the child with learning socially acceptable norms but it may be in this environment they are realising either they dont have the tools to do this or that the child themselves may have an issue, not necessarily one of the conditions mentioned either. Either way there's no harm in them getting more educated on what more they can do or whether there is something they can assist the child.

who the fug

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Indeed. A lot of "my child would never do a thing like that" around now.

The one that gets me is the

My kids were never like :rolleyes:

eviltwin

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

You could say that about Aspergers and yet people accept that is a condition even though there is no real test for it.

I'm not suggesting every case is a genuine case but when you have a family with 2 or 3 kids who are well behaved and then they have another who is violent, aggressive, cannot listen, sit still etc then you have to look beyond the parents. Just because a condition manifests itself in behaviour doesn't mean its a lack of discipline.

Orion

Full transcript is here: http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/10/14/rsa-animate-changing-education-paradigms/

Excerpt that I found relevant:

There are really two types of people. Academic and non academic. Smart people and non smart people. And the consequence of that is that many brilliant people think they are not, because they've been judged against this particular view of the mind. So we have twin pillars, economic and intellectual.

And my view is that this model has caused chaos in many people's lives. And it's been great for some - there've been people who benefited wonderfully from it, but most people have not.

(MOST people)Instead they suffered this. This is the modern epidemic, and it's as misplaced as it is fictitious. This is the plague of ADHD.

[Now this is a map of the instance of ADHD in America. Or prescriptions for ADHD]

Don't mistake me I don't mean to say there is no such thing as attention deficit disorder. I'm not qualified to say if there isn't such a thing.

I know that a great majority of psychologists and paediatricians think there's such a thing. - but it's still a matter of debate.

What I do know for a fact is it's not an epidemic. These kids of being medicated as routinely as we have our tonsils taken out. And on the same whimsical basis and for the same reason medical fashion.

Our children are living in the most intensely stimulating period in the history of the earth. They are being besieged with information and parse their attention from every platform, computers, from iPhones, from advertising holdings from hundreds of television channels.

And we are penalizing them for getting distracted. From what? Boring stuff. At school for the most part It seems to me not a coincidene totally that the instance of ADHD has risen in parallel with the growth of standardized testing. And these kids are being given Ritalin and Adderall and all manner of things, Often quite dangerous drugs, to get them focused and calm them down.

But according to this attention deficit disorder increases as you travel east across the country. People start losing interest in Oklahoma. (laughs) They can hardly think straight in Arkansas. And by the time they get to Washington they've lost it completely. (laughs) And there are separate reasons for that, I believe. It's a fictitious epidemic.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

kippy wrote: »

Aren't most behavioral based conditions a "recent thing"?
Indeed a lot of medical conditions had to be named at some point in history and as such become a name referring to a the description of a biological and mental attributes which were outside of normal behavior/health?.

What i'm saying is that bad parenting has existed throughout history.

Kids aren't borne with ADHD, but the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids.

Some kids are hyperactive, but most are just badly raised as per the OP's story.

Orion

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

That's not what it says at all.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Orion wrote: »

That's not what it says at all.

From your transcript -

But according to this attention deficit disorder increases as you travel east across the country. People start losing interest in Oklahoma. (laughs) They can hardly think straight in Arkansas. And by the time they get to Washington they've lost it completely. (laughs) And there are separate reasons for that, I believe. It's a fictitious epidemic.

I'm paraphrasing the 'fictitous epidemic' and the reasons for it.

kippy

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

What i'm saying is that bad parenting has existed throughout history.

Kids aren't borne with ADHD, but the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids.

Some kids are hyperactive, but most are just badly raised as per the OP's story.

A few things,
1. Drug companies dont medicate kids.
2. Drugs aren't the only solution to these conditions.
3. The OP has no basis to make a call on how this kid is being raised. Neither do you.
4. There are many parents who dont have the tools to deal with kids' behaviour and any parent that tries to find out if there is more that they could be doing is to be lauded. Wouldn't it be worse if they did nothing?

You can't put everything down to bad parenting, especially without knowing the full facts.

Orion

Fictitious epidemic - not fictitious condition. He also says "I don't mean to say there is no such thing as attention deficit disorder. I'm not qualified".

I tend to agree with you though. I think it's a lazy diagnosis that some parents and doctors use to calm down active kids or to justify their own lack of discipline with their children. My own kids would probably be diagnosed with it if I thought it was an available condition. They don't misbehave but one of them in particular cannot think without moving - she moves constantly. I know people who have a child similar to the one above and they went out of their way to find someone who'd diagnose something that exempted them from responsibility. The child is even worse now because he has a label to use as a shield.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

kippy wrote: »

A few things,
1. Drug companies dont medicate kids.

Let me re-phrase then.

Instead of "the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids" - "Awareness of "The condition" has been promoted in the US by drug companies who know their drugs will be prescribed to hyperactive kids."

The drug companies don't care whether the prescription is justified and parents who are too frazzled by their child's behaviour will push to the drug to be prescribed by a doctor who'll receive kick backs (from the drug company) for doing so.

2. Drugs aren't the only solution to these conditions.

I never suggested they were and have already agreed that in some cases drugs will be the right course of action.

3. The OP has no basis to make a call on how this kid is being raised. Neither do you.

PC apologist rubbish - We're not naming names here, we're talking about the social trend of parents who have no control over their children. Or simply don't care enough to deny them anything. By the OP's description he's having sausages and chips most days - Would you consider that a healthy diet for a child?

4. There are many parents who dont have the tools to deal with kids' behaviour and any parent that tries to find out if there is more that they could be doing is to be lauded. Wouldn't it be worse if they did nothing?

You can't put everything down to bad parenting, especially without knowing the full facts.

From the OP's description its exactly because they did nothing that this problem has grown beyond their control.

Don't have the tools to deal with behaviour? If it's a genuine case of a behvioural disorder i'd agree with you

But if the issues are born out of not have any disciplinary control over a child and letting them bring themselves up however the child see's fit then its neglectful.

kippy

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

Let me re-phrase then.

Instead of "the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids" - "Awareness of "The condition" has been promoted in the US by drug companies who know their drugs will be prescribed to hyperactive kids."

The drug companies don't care whether the prescription is justified and parents who are too frazzled by their child's behaviour will push to the drug to be prescribed by a doctor who'll receive kick backs (from the drug company) for doing so.



I never suggested they were and have already agreed that in some cases drugs will be the right course of action.



PC apologist rubbish - We're not naming names here, we're talking about the social trend of parents who have no control over their children. Or simply don't care enough to deny them anything. By the OP's description he's having sausages and chips most days - Would you consider that a healthy diet for a child?



From the OP's description its exactly because they did nothing that this problem has grown beyond their control.

Don't have the tools to deal with behaviour? If it's a genuine case of a behvioural disorder i'd agree with you

But if the issues are born out of not have any disciplinary control over a child and letting them bring themselves up however the child see's fit then its neglectful.

Look there are no doubt poor parents out there, like there always have been.
But you cannot make that call based solely on what the OP has said in their post.

I do agree with you in that drugs are too easily administered for any number of mental issues these days - in some cases with good results however in some cases where other options might be a better long term solution.
There is no doubt that companies manufacturing these drugs create an environment, through various means, to facilitate this.

As for the PC apologist rubbish, I know a lot of parents are very wary of coming down hard on their kids in a public area where others feel the need to score and mark there performance based on their own, sometimes, limited view of the world.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

I don't have kids.

But if i do one day, I won't be looking to medication if i give in to all of their demands and generally let them run riot.

I'll have failed as a parent and failed in my responsabilities to bring them up properly.

Morag

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't have kids.

But if i do one day, I won't be looking to medication if i give in to all of their demands and generally let them run riot.

I'll have failed as a parent and failed in my responsabilities to bring them up properly.

Plenty of parents do all that and still have children with challenging behaviors.
My kids having a melt down or a shut down are not due to a lack of good parenting and discipline.

eviltwin

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't have kids.

But if i do one day, I won't be looking to medication if i give in to all of their demands and generally let them run riot.

I'll have failed as a parent and failed in my responsabilities to bring them up properly.

Any medical professional worth their salt wouldn't recommend medications as a first resort, there are many other techniques that work well to keep manage behaviour but you need to know about them and the HSE are not exactly the best when it comes to non medical treatments.

Of course there are bad parents out there who like to hide behind a label like ADHD to excuse their own shortcomings but its attitudes that ALL these children are just bold that is making it harder for the genuine cases to get the help they need.

I've met people who see my daughter having an AS episode who make a judgement call about her or about me without having any knowledge of us and assume I'm a bad parent for not correcting my daughter for her rudeness. They don't understand the way the condition manifests itself. But it can be sole destroying having to constantly defend yourself and your child and that's with a condition that pretty much everyone accepts is a genuine one. If you know a family well and feel that their child is acting up because the parents are not doing their job tell them, say something. If you don't know them then don't judge, you don't know the first thing about them.

diveout

Assessment is not absolving a parent of responsibility. Love the word choice by the way- absolution...very apt for the moral superiority judgementalism free for all the general public has on parents.... Assessment is the first step to taking responsibility so that you can then respond accordingly to the child's needs. If they treat the diagnosis as a destiny, then yes I would say that is a cop out and avoiding responsibility.

I do think there are two pathologies at work. One is the hyper diagnosis of children and the other is the idea you can be a perfect parent. These are two dynamics colluding together so that every slight deviation from what the experts perceive to be the ideal child is ticked on a dsm box. Hello Ritalin. Hello four year olds diagnosed with bi-polar.

It saddens me that people need a diagnosis to get some understanding though to get people to step out of their judgypants.

Fact is you have no idea what is going on with another person's child. It could be a disorder, it could perhaps be not due a lack of discipline, but perhaps a lack of love and time, it could be they are having a bad day, it could be trauma no one has identified yet, it could be the middle of a divorce and they are still adjusting to a life of suitcases in the hallways ping ponged between two homes, it could be diet, it could be someone was mean to them at school that day, it could be any any number of possibilities. You just don't know.

CrookedJack

Barely There wrote: »

I know a couple with a 4-year old kid.
They've basically given into the child's demands since he was born. He runs around the place and does whatever he feels like doing. If he wants something he demands it, and if he doesn't get it straight away, he throws an almighty tantrum which always works.

Basically the kid is a right little terror - they can't bring him into a restaurant as he'll just run around causing havoc, even in shops he runs around grabbing stuff and screams at an ear-piercing loud volume if he can't have what he wants.
His diet is terrible - he demands sausages and chips every night - so of course that is what he eats.
They have raised a monster,

Last weekend they told me they were trying to have him assessed for ADHT.

I nearly spat my coffee out.

The way I see it, they're the reason that the child is 'wild', to put it mildly.
Now they're trying to get him diagnosed with a condition to absolve themselves of responsibility.

Anyone else see anything similar with parents?

It's very easy to criticise parenting when you are not around the child all day. easy, but not really fair

The Corinthian

CrookedJack wrote: »

It's very easy to criticise parenting when you are not around the child all day. easy, but not really fair

That's not really true. Being around the child all day can end up simply confirming what you've deduced, that the parent is lazy; never corrects the child and takes the route of least resistance which results in the child growing up with anti-social behavioral problems.

The problem with the "walk a mile in my shoes first" argument is that lots of other people in identical circumstances do so every day, but don't shirk their responsibilities and make that effort to raise the child in such a way that it matures emotionally and socially. Sure, it's not easy, but that's no excuse.

diveout

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's not really true. Being around the child all day can end up simply confirming what you've deduced, that the parent is lazy; never corrects the child and takes the route of least resistance which results in the child growing up with anti-social behavioral problems.

The problem with the "walk a mile in my shoes first" argument is that lots of other people in identical circumstances do so every day, but don't shirk their responsibilities and make that effort to raise the child in such a way that it matures emotionally and socially. Sure, it's not easy, but that's no excuse.

There is no thing as identical circumstances.

The Corinthian

diveout wrote: »

There is no thing as identical circumstances.

No, but there are plenty of circumstances that are in all practical terms so similar that it should make no difference, yet the parents make little or no effort to correct the child, or sit there to make sure they finish their dinner before giving them dessert and so on. The only real difference is that in one scenario the parent makes that effort and the other doesn't. You even see this between parents with the same child upon occasion.

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

There is no thing as identical circumstances.

You're right, and some parents in more difficult circumstances manage to do a better job.

diveout

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, but there are plenty of circumstances that are in all practical terms so similar that it should make no difference, yet the parents make little or no effort to correct the child, or sit there to make sure they finish their dinner before giving them dessert and so on. The only real difference is that in one scenario the parent makes that effort and the other doesn't. You even see this between parents with the same child upon occasion.

I think you are straying from the ADHD issue or diagnosis as exemption and into parenting styles, which can be generational and cultural in difference. Some friends of mine are running into a lot of judgy pants looks in France for example, and I know some Irish parents who won't holiday in France for precisely this reason.

Excessive force, humiliation and discipline can produce the very behavior problems you want to avoid. On the other hand I did once see a couple with a child who had or they said he had ADHD/hyperactivity and he was absolutely wild. They seemed to be at a point where they were beyond exasperated at what to do.

No circumstances are identical, no parents are, nor are children.

And you would have no idea what effect you would have as a third party present to how it might affect how they discipline. They might not want to embarrass the child by correcting him or her in front of you. Or perhaps they were vilified on another occasion by another third party or embarrassed the child on another occasion and don't want to repeat the scene.

One can't really know for sure.

diveout

OldNotWIse wrote: »

You're right, and some parents in more difficult circumstances manage to do a better job.

Ok. So what is your idea of ideal/perfect behavior in a four year old boy? You assume average IQ, you assume no sensory issues, normal sensitivities, stable background, no economic hardship, happy in school, two loving parents at home, no pathologies like ADHD, is neuro-typical, no bullying at school or in the neighborhood, no dietary issues...

Let's assume a perfect four year old boy in idylliic circumstances. What is your idea of how he should behave at all times? And how would you go about insuring that he does that?

And after you have come up with that plan, maybe come up with some plans for all the other myriad infinite variations that occur in different children. And let us all know how to raise our kids so they can fit into whatever YOUR ideal of a human should be.

Thanks.

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

Ok. So what is your idea of ideal/perfect behavior in a four year old boy? You assume average IQ, you assume no sensory issues, normal sensitivities, stable background, no economic hardship, happy in school, two loving parents at home, no pathologies like ADHD, is neuro-typical, no bullying at school or in the neighborhood, no dietary issues...

Let's assume a perfect four year old boy in idylliic circumstances. What is your idea of how he should behave at all times? And how would you go about insuring that he does that?

And after you have come up with that plan, maybe come up with some plans for all the other myriad infinite variations that occur in different children. And let us all know how to raise our kids so they can fit into whatever YOUR ideal of a human should be.


Thanks.

I think you need to relax. I simply pointed out that using "circumstances" to absolve oneself of parental repsonibility is a cop out, when there are those who are parenting under worse circumstances and doing the best they can. I think you have an agenda, and you dont really need me to write you a thesis on parenting - once the little darlings don't make life misery for everyone around them, I really couldn't care less whether a human is "ideal" or not.

And perhaps you can point out where I suggested that a four year old boy must be perfectly behaved at all times? wouldn't want to resort to hysterical false accusations now would we?

diveout

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I think you need to relax. I simply pointed out that using "circumstances" to absolve oneself of parental repsonibility is a cop out, when there are those who are parenting under worse circumstances and doing the best they can. I think you have an agenda, and you dont really need me to write you a thesis on parenting - once the little darlings don't make life misery for everyone around them, I really couldn't care less whether a human is "ideal" or not.

And perhaps you can point out where I suggested that a four year old boy must be perfectly behaved at all times? wouldn't want to resort to hysterical false accusations now would we?

This thread is not actually about circumstances and I did not bring up environment. It's about using neurological diagnosis to effectively avoid examining how one's parenting is affecting behavior.

My initial point was that getting an evaluation is acting responsibly because what happens is once the evaluation is made, a parent in effect has to do MORE, not less to accommodate and work with the condition.

There is no agenda here other than pointing out that in the vast majority of the time people don't know the whole picture and are too quick to judge.

I've heard the same argument in the OP about parents of schizophrenics, that the diagnosis is used to exempt themselves from the lifelong double bind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind they have put their kids in. I suppose it is possible, but ultimately we don't know.

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

This thread is not actually about circumstances and I did not bring up environment. It's about using neurological diagnosis to effectively avoid examining how one's parenting is affecting behavior.

My initial point was that getting an evaluation is acting responsibly because what happens is once the evaluation is made, a parent in effect has to do MORE, not less to accommodate and work with the condition.

There is no agenda here other than pointing out that in the vast majority of the time people don't know the whole picture and are too quick to judge.

I've heard the same argument in the OP about parents of schizophrenics, that the diagnosis is used to exempt themselves from the lifelong double bind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind they have put their kids in. I suppose it is possible, but ultimately we don't know.

How do you know that action follows evaluation? How do you know the diagnosis is even right? When I was growing up my best friend was put on a crazy áss diet that excluded pretty much everything except rice cakes and fruit because she was "hyperactive" as a result of "allergies" - she was just bold but her parents coldn't accept that, and chose to starve her instead She grew up looking like a concentration camp victim because they couldn't bear the thought that their little angel might just be hard to handle.

diveout

OldNotWIse wrote: »

How do you know that action follows evaluation? How do you know the diagnosis is even right? When I was growing up my best friend was put on a crazy áss diet that excluded pretty much everything except rice cakes and fruit because she was "hyperactive" as a result of "allergies" - she was just bold but her parents coldn't accept that, and chose to starve her instead She grew up looking like a concentration camp victim because they couldn't bear the thought that their little angel might just be hard to handle.

Well those are all very valid questions.

But how do you know someone is "just bold?' What does that mean exactly?

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

Well those are all very valid questions.

But how do you know someone is "just bold?' What does that mean exactly?

We can keep firing the "how do you know" questions at each other but it doesn't get us anywhere. My "how do you know he's not just bold?" is just as valid as your "how do you know he doesn't have some underlying condition etc causing his behvaior?". Does seem funny that we've had an explosion of such diagnoses in the recent past though. It's almost as if the possibility that the kid is just spoilt and used to getting his own way is a "last resort" explanation.

kippy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

We can keep firing the "how do you know" questions at each other but it doesn't get us anywhere. My "how do you know he's not just bold?" is just as valid as your "how do you know he doesn't have some underlying condition etc causing his behvaior?". Does seem funny that we've had an explosion of such diagnoses in the recent past though. It's almost as if the possibility that the kid is just spoilt and used to getting his own way is a "last resort" explanation.

We've had an explosion of knowledge and science in the past few decades as well though and indeed a tonne more physical and genetic conditions are far better diagnosed and treated now than they were decades ago.........

(I dont suggest that these conditions might be diagnosed a little too easily at times mind you)

OldNotWIse

kippy wrote: »

We've had an explosion of knowledge and science in the past few decades as well though and indeed a tonne more physical and genetic conditions are far better diagnosed and treated now than they were decades ago.........

(I dont suggest that these conditions might be diagnosed a little too easily at times mind you)

We've also had a massive shift away from the traditional disciplinarian approach to parenting towards a "now now darling you know how that makes mommy feel" style.

kippy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

We've also had a massive shift away from the traditional disciplinarian approach to parenting towards a "now now darling you know how that makes mommy feel" style.

Indeed. I don't disagree with that.

OldNotWIse

kippy wrote: »

Indeed. I don't disagree with that.

Not suggesting that the disciplinarian approach is one that should be aspired to. Like a lot of things we seem to swing in roundabouts. Our parents had it tough with corporal punishment and the "children should be seen and not heard" attitude, but sometimes I think we've also gone too far the other way, with children being let away with too much. Running riot and being put on the "bold step" for 30 seconds?! An increasing amount of stories in the news about children maiming defenceless animals - every Hallowe'en brings its own sad headlines about puppies thrown on bonfires and cats with bangers tied to their tales. I know more than one person with a cat that was rescued as a kitten being kicked around by youths as a football Of course not all kids are like that, but this is something that has increased dramatically in the last few years and one wonders why. Our parents had it tough at school with teachers reigning terror on them, but now a teacher cannot correct a child without indignant parents descending on them accusing them of picking on their child. I guess us 80's kids had it good in the middle?!

diveout

kippy wrote: »

We've had an explosion of knowledge and science in the past few decades as well though and indeed a tonne more physical and genetic conditions are far better diagnosed and treated now than they were decades ago.........

(I dont suggest that these conditions might be diagnosed a little too easily at times mind you)

We do, but we also have two year olds being diagnosed with bi-polar.

And also this:
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/

diveout

OldNotWIse wrote: »

We can keep firing the "how do you know" questions at each other but it doesn't get us anywhere. My "how do you know he's not just bold?" is just as valid as your "how do you know he doesn't have some underlying condition etc causing his behvaior?". Does seem funny that we've had an explosion of such diagnoses in the recent past though. It's almost as if the possibility that the kid is just spoilt and used to getting his own way is a "last resort" explanation.

My point is we don't know.

If you want to go back to the past, a lot more is now expected of kids. Kids are now expected at age 5 to do what my generation wasn't expected to do until 7. So of course more will fail to meet the criteria, more will fail to pay attention, more will feel bad, feel frustrated, and inevitably more will act out.

Particularly with boys, who are reared from very young to suck it up and are not taught how to express negative feeling, so they shut up, don't know how to approach the grownups, or talk about how they feel, and then they act out. No surprise more boys are getting the ahdh diagnosis to be honest.

As to your example of the kittens and the animals, I wouldn't know what to say about anti social behaior en masse. For all we know these are kids getting the crap beaten out of them at home, maybe see their parents being violent, are reared with zero empathy and are taking their anger out on each other. Something tells me these kids aren't exactly spoilt though?

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

My point is we don't know.

If you want to go back to the past, a lot more is now expected of kids. Kids are now expected at age 5 to do what my generation wasn't expected to do until 7. So of course more will fail to meet the criteria, more will fail to pay attention, more will feel bad, feel frustrated, and inevitably more will act out.

Particularly with boys, who are reared from very young to suck it up and are not taught how to express negative feeling, so they shut up, don't know how to approach the grownups, or talk about how they feel, and then they act out. No surprise more boys are getting the ahdh diagnosis to be honest.

As to your example of the kittens and the animals, I wouldn't know what to say about anti social behaior en masse. For all we know these are kids getting the crap beaten out of them at home, maybe see their parents being violent, are reared with zero empathy and are taking their anger out on each other. Something tells me these kids aren't exactly spoilt though?

Again with the justifications though. That's part of the problem. Lack of responsibility and accountability for one's actions (be it the child or the parent). My Gran grew up having her head banged off the sitting room wall by my great grandmother - afaik she didn't run out onto the street and maim defenceless animals. My father grew up in tenements - he was anything but spoiled, but he had a menagerie of misfit animals that he rescued - crows etc. People can tick all of these excuse boxes and come out alright on the other side. Absolution saves no one.

diveout

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Again with the justifications though. That's part of the problem. Lack of responsibility and accountability for one's actions (be it the child or the parent). My Gran grew up having her head banged off the sitting room wall by my great grandmother - afaik she didn't run out onto the street and maim defenceless animals. My father grew up in tenements - he was anything but spoiled, but he had a menagerie of misfit animals that he rescued - crows etc. People can tick all of these excuse boxes and come out alright on the other side. Absolution saves no one.

Ok ok...

Look the title of this thread is about responsibility, not blame...and there is a difference. Responsibility is about assessment without moralising. Blame assumes moral superiority on the part of the person doing the blaming and usually gets people nowhere.

Do you have a solution to this anti social behavior?

Rubberchikken

parents reap what they sow.
it's all well and good letting junior decide how things go when he's 2/3/4, but without boundaries junior will probably turn out to be an obnoxious ahole by 15. you know the ones who know the answer to everything, even though they don't, the ones who think they're opinion is valuable to everyone etc.
spare me from them and their 'enlightened' parents.

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

Ok ok...

Look the title of this thread is about responsibility, not blame...and there is a difference. Responsibility is about assessment without moralising. Blame assumes moral superiority on the part of the person doing the blaming and usually gets people nowhere.

Do you have a solution to this anti social behavior?

Where did I mention blame? I referred to a need for people to take responsibility for their actions, or to make their kids take responsibility for their actions... I am not assuming moral superiority, I just dont particularly like seeing headlines about foals being beaten to death or dogs being set on fire. As for asking me to come up with some kinds of final solution - it's not actually my responsibility to parent other people's kids, so once again is that not absolving them of responsibility and expecting someone else to do it?

With specific reference to animal cruelty cases, I would imagine that a system making the parents vicariously liable for the child's actions might act as some for of incentive for more effective parenting. Also possibly requiring the child to take part in some kind of animal welfare education program ie; try to ensure they dont re-offend. Oh and also have them evaluated as children that young doing things like that may very well grow up to be sociopaths...:(

Though, if it were my animal my solution would be very different I pity the idiot who tries to harm her!

diveout

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Where did I mention blame? I referred to a need for people to take responsibility for their actions, or to make their kids take responsibility for their actions... I am not assuming moral superiority, I just dont particularly like seeing headlines about foals being beaten to death or dogs being set on fire. As for asking me to come up with some kinds of final solution - it's not actually my responsibility to parent other people's kids, so once again is that not absolving them of responsibility and expecting someone else to do it?

With specific reference to animal cruelty cases, I would imagine that a system making the parents vicariously liable for the child's actions might act as some for of incentive for more effective parenting. Also possibly requiring the child to take part in some kind of animal welfare education program ie; try to ensure they dont re-offend. Oh and also have them evaluated as children that young doing things like that may very well grow up to be sociopaths...:(

Though, if it were my animal my solution would be very different I pity the idiot who tries to harm her!

Setting animals on fire is quite a different scenario to the hyperactive child described in the OP. Honestly I have no idea how a parent deals with such anti social behavior if they are scared of their own kids. I would be if I saw something like that.

But what this argument looks to me like the old mad or bad argument.

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

Setting animals on fire is quite a different scenario to the hyperactive child described in the OP. Honestly I have no idea how a parent deals with such anti social behavior if they are scared of their own kids. I would be if I saw something like that.

But what this argument looks to me like the old mad or bad argument.

I'm aware of the difference, but you can't deny that these things are happening day in day out and are a symptom of the bigger problem. I'm not suggesting that a child acting out in a cafe will go out the next day and set a cat alight, but these problems begin somewhere and are allowed to develop into what they are.

I dont know what you mean by "mad or bad" point, sorry. If its wrt my sociopath comment, that wasn;t being smart - its known that cruelty to animals is something that presents in children who later are diagnosed.

diveout

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I'm aware of the difference, but you can't deny that these things are happening day in day out and are a symptom of the bigger problem. I'm not suggesting that a child acting out in a cafe will go out the next day and set a cat alight, but these problems begin somewhere and are allowed to develop into what they are.

I dont know what you mean by "mad or bad" point, sorry. If its wrt my sociopath comment, that wasn;t being smart - its known that cruelty to animals is something that presents in children who later are diagnosed.

Mad vs Bad is the debate whether it's mental illness or disorder or the person is just bad.

OldNotWIse

diveout wrote: »

Mad vs Bad is the debate whether it's mental illness or disorder or the person is just bad.

I dont know if I believe that anyone is just "bad". Then again, I havent looked at statistics and studies in depth enough to have conviction in that. Anyway, I dont want to pull the thread off topic any more. Was good chatting to you!