Absolving yourself of parental responsibility.

Barely There · 19-06-2014 10:56am #1

I know a couple with a 4-year old kid.
They've basically given into the child's demands since he was born. He runs around the place and does whatever he feels like doing. If he wants something he demands it, and if he doesn't get it straight away, he throws an almighty tantrum which always works.

Basically the kid is a right little terror - they can't bring him into a restaurant as he'll just run around causing havoc, even in shops he runs around grabbing stuff and screams at an ear-piercing loud volume if he can't have what he wants.
His diet is terrible - he demands sausages and chips every night - so of course that is what he eats.
They have raised a monster,

Last weekend they told me they were trying to have him assessed for ADHT.

I nearly spat my coffee out.

The way I see it, they're the reason that the child is 'wild', to put it mildly.
Now they're trying to get him diagnosed with a condition to absolve themselves of responsibility.

Anyone else see anything similar with parents?

eviltwin · 19-06-2014 11:10am

Well firstly its important to bear in mind that ADHD, ADD, ODD are all real conditions and its easy to blame lazy parenting. Getting a diagnosis isn't about absolving yourself of responsibility but it can help you get supports that will help you and your child going forward. With these conditions early intervention is crucial so if they have any concerns they are right to get the child assessed. This idea that a doctor will just sign off a child as having a condition is bull. Its very hard to get a diagnosis, any decent doctor will look at everything else first before putting a medical name to the issue. If the child does have a condition then your friends need support and understanding, slagging them and their child off doesn't help.

Orion · 19-06-2014 11:34am

eviltwin wrote: »

Well firstly its important to bear in mind that ADHD, ADD, ODD are all real conditions and its easy to blame lazy parenting.

You should have a look at this: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

eviltwin · 19-06-2014 11:35am

Orion wrote: »

You should have a look at this: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

Can't watch it. What does it say?

endacl · 19-06-2014 11:36am

eviltwin wrote: »

Well firstly its important to bear in mind that ADHD, ADD, ODD are all real conditions

So is BOLD...

Orion · 19-06-2014 11:37am

This isn't so much a Parenting forum issue. I think it's a more societal thing so I'm going to move this to Humanities for a more general discussion than just parenting.

Mr_Roger_Bongos · 19-06-2014 11:39am

eviltwin wrote: »

Can't watch it. What does it say?

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

Orion · 19-06-2014 11:40am

eviltwin wrote: »

Can't watch it. What does it say?

It's worth watching at some stage if you can. It's Ken Robinson chamoioning a re-think of the educational model and goes into some discussion on the rise of ADHD and denies that it's an epidemic as it's called in some quarters. I'll see if I can find a transcript.

OldNotWIse · 19-06-2014 11:42am

endacl wrote: »

So is BOLD...

Indeed. A lot of "my child would never do a thing like that" around now.

kippy · 19-06-2014 11:44am

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

Aren't most behavioral based conditions a "recent thing" or perhaps the diagnosis of them?
Indeed a lot of medical conditions had to be named at some point in history and as such become a name referring to a the description of a biological and mental attributes which were outside of normal behavior/health?

I wouldn't call it a disease either by the way.

That said I'll take a look at the video when I get a chance.

I think a lot of the time as well, tbf to parents, when they take they kids out in public they are often too ashamed or worried to scold them or indeed leave them in a tantrum for too long in a public area for fear it would annoy some member of the PC/anti kids brigade and as such let them have what they want. They may in fact be using every tool available to them in private to assist the child with learning socially acceptable norms but it may be in this environment they are realising either they dont have the tools to do this or that the child themselves may have an issue, not necessarily one of the conditions mentioned either. Either way there's no harm in them getting more educated on what more they can do or whether there is something they can assist the child.

who the fug · 19-06-2014 11:46am

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Indeed. A lot of "my child would never do a thing like that" around now.

The one that gets me is the

My kids were never like :rolleyes:

eviltwin · 19-06-2014 11:47am

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

You could say that about Aspergers and yet people accept that is a condition even though there is no real test for it.

I'm not suggesting every case is a genuine case but when you have a family with 2 or 3 kids who are well behaved and then they have another who is violent, aggressive, cannot listen, sit still etc then you have to look beyond the parents. Just because a condition manifests itself in behaviour doesn't mean its a lack of discipline.

Orion · 19-06-2014 11:47am

Full transcript is here: http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/10/14/rsa-animate-changing-education-paradigms/

Excerpt that I found relevant:

There are really two types of people. Academic and non academic. Smart people and non smart people. And the consequence of that is that many brilliant people think they are not, because they've been judged against this particular view of the mind. So we have twin pillars, economic and intellectual.

And my view is that this model has caused chaos in many people's lives. And it's been great for some - there've been people who benefited wonderfully from it, but most people have not.

(MOST people)Instead they suffered this. This is the modern epidemic, and it's as misplaced as it is fictitious. This is the plague of ADHD.

[Now this is a map of the instance of ADHD in America. Or prescriptions for ADHD]

Don't mistake me I don't mean to say there is no such thing as attention deficit disorder. I'm not qualified to say if there isn't such a thing.

I know that a great majority of psychologists and paediatricians think there's such a thing. - but it's still a matter of debate.

What I do know for a fact is it's not an epidemic. These kids of being medicated as routinely as we have our tonsils taken out. And on the same whimsical basis and for the same reason medical fashion.

Our children are living in the most intensely stimulating period in the history of the earth. They are being besieged with information and parse their attention from every platform, computers, from iPhones, from advertising holdings from hundreds of television channels.

And we are penalizing them for getting distracted. From what? Boring stuff. At school for the most part It seems to me not a coincidene totally that the instance of ADHD has risen in parallel with the growth of standardized testing. And these kids are being given Ritalin and Adderall and all manner of things, Often quite dangerous drugs, to get them focused and calm them down.

But according to this attention deficit disorder increases as you travel east across the country. People start losing interest in Oklahoma. (laughs) They can hardly think straight in Arkansas. And by the time they get to Washington they've lost it completely. (laughs) And there are separate reasons for that, I believe. It's a fictitious epidemic.

Mr_Roger_Bongos · 19-06-2014 11:48am

kippy wrote: »

Aren't most behavioral based conditions a "recent thing"?
Indeed a lot of medical conditions had to be named at some point in history and as such become a name referring to a the description of a biological and mental attributes which were outside of normal behavior/health?.

What i'm saying is that bad parenting has existed throughout history.

Kids aren't borne with ADHD, but the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids.

Some kids are hyperactive, but most are just badly raised as per the OP's story.

Orion · 19-06-2014 11:48am

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

That ADHD is a recent creation born from parents looking to diagnose their children with something to explain their behavioural problems.

Watch the video, the reported cases mysteriously start being diagnosed on the east coast of america and spread like a disease across the country - I.e. This isn't a real condition, it's a creation.

That's not what it says at all.

Mr_Roger_Bongos · 19-06-2014 11:51am

Orion wrote: »

That's not what it says at all.

From your transcript -

But according to this attention deficit disorder increases as you travel east across the country. People start losing interest in Oklahoma. (laughs) They can hardly think straight in Arkansas. And by the time they get to Washington they've lost it completely. (laughs) And there are separate reasons for that, I believe. It's a fictitious epidemic.

I'm paraphrasing the 'fictitous epidemic' and the reasons for it.

kippy · 19-06-2014 11:55am

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

What i'm saying is that bad parenting has existed throughout history.

Kids aren't borne with ADHD, but the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids.

Some kids are hyperactive, but most are just badly raised as per the OP's story.

A few things,
1. Drug companies dont medicate kids.
2. Drugs aren't the only solution to these conditions.
3. The OP has no basis to make a call on how this kid is being raised. Neither do you.
4. There are many parents who dont have the tools to deal with kids' behaviour and any parent that tries to find out if there is more that they could be doing is to be lauded. Wouldn't it be worse if they did nothing?

You can't put everything down to bad parenting, especially without knowing the full facts.

Orion · 19-06-2014 11:56am

Fictitious epidemic - not fictitious condition. He also says "I don't mean to say there is no such thing as attention deficit disorder. I'm not qualified".

I tend to agree with you though. I think it's a lazy diagnosis that some parents and doctors use to calm down active kids or to justify their own lack of discipline with their children. My own kids would probably be diagnosed with it if I thought it was an available condition. They don't misbehave but one of them in particular cannot think without moving - she moves constantly. I know people who have a child similar to the one above and they went out of their way to find someone who'd diagnose something that exempted them from responsibility. The child is even worse now because he has a label to use as a shield.

Mr_Roger_Bongos · 19-06-2014 2:34pm

kippy wrote: »

A few things,
1. Drug companies dont medicate kids.

Let me re-phrase then.

Instead of "the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids" - "Awareness of "The condition" has been promoted in the US by drug companies who know their drugs will be prescribed to hyperactive kids."

The drug companies don't care whether the prescription is justified and parents who are too frazzled by their child's behaviour will push to the drug to be prescribed by a doctor who'll receive kick backs (from the drug company) for doing so.

2. Drugs aren't the only solution to these conditions.

I never suggested they were and have already agreed that in some cases drugs will be the right course of action.

3. The OP has no basis to make a call on how this kid is being raised. Neither do you.

PC apologist rubbish - We're not naming names here, we're talking about the social trend of parents who have no control over their children. Or simply don't care enough to deny them anything. By the OP's description he's having sausages and chips most days - Would you consider that a healthy diet for a child?

4. There are many parents who dont have the tools to deal with kids' behaviour and any parent that tries to find out if there is more that they could be doing is to be lauded. Wouldn't it be worse if they did nothing?

You can't put everything down to bad parenting, especially without knowing the full facts.

From the OP's description its exactly because they did nothing that this problem has grown beyond their control.

Don't have the tools to deal with behaviour? If it's a genuine case of a behvioural disorder i'd agree with you

But if the issues are born out of not have any disciplinary control over a child and letting them bring themselves up however the child see's fit then its neglectful.

kippy · 19-06-2014 3:21pm

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

Let me re-phrase then.

Instead of "the condition has been invented to justify drug companies medicating hyperactive kids" - "Awareness of "The condition" has been promoted in the US by drug companies who know their drugs will be prescribed to hyperactive kids."

The drug companies don't care whether the prescription is justified and parents who are too frazzled by their child's behaviour will push to the drug to be prescribed by a doctor who'll receive kick backs (from the drug company) for doing so.

I never suggested they were and have already agreed that in some cases drugs will be the right course of action.

PC apologist rubbish - We're not naming names here, we're talking about the social trend of parents who have no control over their children. Or simply don't care enough to deny them anything. By the OP's description he's having sausages and chips most days - Would you consider that a healthy diet for a child?

From the OP's description its exactly because they did nothing that this problem has grown beyond their control.

Don't have the tools to deal with behaviour? If it's a genuine case of a behvioural disorder i'd agree with you

But if the issues are born out of not have any disciplinary control over a child and letting them bring themselves up however the child see's fit then its neglectful.

Look there are no doubt poor parents out there, like there always have been.
But you cannot make that call based solely on what the OP has said in their post.

I do agree with you in that drugs are too easily administered for any number of mental issues these days - in some cases with good results however in some cases where other options might be a better long term solution.
There is no doubt that companies manufacturing these drugs create an environment, through various means, to facilitate this.

As for the PC apologist rubbish, I know a lot of parents are very wary of coming down hard on their kids in a public area where others feel the need to score and mark there performance based on their own, sometimes, limited view of the world.

Mr_Roger_Bongos · 19-06-2014 4:49pm

I don't have kids.

But if i do one day, I won't be looking to medication if i give in to all of their demands and generally let them run riot.

I'll have failed as a parent and failed in my responsabilities to bring them up properly.

Morag · 19-06-2014 4:59pm

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't have kids.

But if i do one day, I won't be looking to medication if i give in to all of their demands and generally let them run riot.

I'll have failed as a parent and failed in my responsabilities to bring them up properly.

Plenty of parents do all that and still have children with challenging behaviors.
My kids having a melt down or a shut down are not due to a lack of good parenting and discipline.

eviltwin · 19-06-2014 6:02pm

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't have kids.

But if i do one day, I won't be looking to medication if i give in to all of their demands and generally let them run riot.

I'll have failed as a parent and failed in my responsabilities to bring them up properly.

Any medical professional worth their salt wouldn't recommend medications as a first resort, there are many other techniques that work well to keep manage behaviour but you need to know about them and the HSE are not exactly the best when it comes to non medical treatments.

Of course there are bad parents out there who like to hide behind a label like ADHD to excuse their own shortcomings but its attitudes that ALL these children are just bold that is making it harder for the genuine cases to get the help they need.

I've met people who see my daughter having an AS episode who make a judgement call about her or about me without having any knowledge of us and assume I'm a bad parent for not correcting my daughter for her rudeness. They don't understand the way the condition manifests itself. But it can be sole destroying having to constantly defend yourself and your child and that's with a condition that pretty much everyone accepts is a genuine one. If you know a family well and feel that their child is acting up because the parents are not doing their job tell them, say something. If you don't know them then don't judge, you don't know the first thing about them.

diveout · 19-06-2014 9:41pm

Assessment is not absolving a parent of responsibility. Love the word choice by the way- absolution...very apt for the moral superiority judgementalism free for all the general public has on parents.... Assessment is the first step to taking responsibility so that you can then respond accordingly to the child's needs. If they treat the diagnosis as a destiny, then yes I would say that is a cop out and avoiding responsibility.

I do think there are two pathologies at work. One is the hyper diagnosis of children and the other is the idea you can be a perfect parent. These are two dynamics colluding together so that every slight deviation from what the experts perceive to be the ideal child is ticked on a dsm box. Hello Ritalin. Hello four year olds diagnosed with bi-polar.

It saddens me that people need a diagnosis to get some understanding though to get people to step out of their judgypants.

Fact is you have no idea what is going on with another person's child. It could be a disorder, it could perhaps be not due a lack of discipline, but perhaps a lack of love and time, it could be they are having a bad day, it could be trauma no one has identified yet, it could be the middle of a divorce and they are still adjusting to a life of suitcases in the hallways ping ponged between two homes, it could be diet, it could be someone was mean to them at school that day, it could be any any number of possibilities. You just don't know.

CrookedJack · 19-06-2014 9:52pm

Barely There wrote: »

I know a couple with a 4-year old kid.
They've basically given into the child's demands since he was born. He runs around the place and does whatever he feels like doing. If he wants something he demands it, and if he doesn't get it straight away, he throws an almighty tantrum which always works.

Basically the kid is a right little terror - they can't bring him into a restaurant as he'll just run around causing havoc, even in shops he runs around grabbing stuff and screams at an ear-piercing loud volume if he can't have what he wants.
His diet is terrible - he demands sausages and chips every night - so of course that is what he eats.
They have raised a monster,

Last weekend they told me they were trying to have him assessed for ADHT.

I nearly spat my coffee out.

The way I see it, they're the reason that the child is 'wild', to put it mildly.
Now they're trying to get him diagnosed with a condition to absolve themselves of responsibility.

Anyone else see anything similar with parents?

It's very easy to criticise parenting when you are not around the child all day. easy, but not really fair

The Corinthian · 25-06-2014 10:16am

CrookedJack wrote: »

It's very easy to criticise parenting when you are not around the child all day. easy, but not really fair

That's not really true. Being around the child all day can end up simply confirming what you've deduced, that the parent is lazy; never corrects the child and takes the route of least resistance which results in the child growing up with anti-social behavioral problems.

The problem with the "walk a mile in my shoes first" argument is that lots of other people in identical circumstances do so every day, but don't shirk their responsibilities and make that effort to raise the child in such a way that it matures emotionally and socially. Sure, it's not easy, but that's no excuse.

diveout · 25-06-2014 11:02am

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's not really true. Being around the child all day can end up simply confirming what you've deduced, that the parent is lazy; never corrects the child and takes the route of least resistance which results in the child growing up with anti-social behavioral problems.

The problem with the "walk a mile in my shoes first" argument is that lots of other people in identical circumstances do so every day, but don't shirk their responsibilities and make that effort to raise the child in such a way that it matures emotionally and socially. Sure, it's not easy, but that's no excuse.

There is no thing as identical circumstances.

The Corinthian · 25-06-2014 11:12am

diveout wrote: »

There is no thing as identical circumstances.

No, but there are plenty of circumstances that are in all practical terms so similar that it should make no difference, yet the parents make little or no effort to correct the child, or sit there to make sure they finish their dinner before giving them dessert and so on. The only real difference is that in one scenario the parent makes that effort and the other doesn't. You even see this between parents with the same child upon occasion.

OldNotWIse · 25-06-2014 11:19am

diveout wrote: »

There is no thing as identical circumstances.

You're right, and some parents in more difficult circumstances manage to do a better job.

diveout · 25-06-2014 11:25am

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, but there are plenty of circumstances that are in all practical terms so similar that it should make no difference, yet the parents make little or no effort to correct the child, or sit there to make sure they finish their dinner before giving them dessert and so on. The only real difference is that in one scenario the parent makes that effort and the other doesn't. You even see this between parents with the same child upon occasion.

I think you are straying from the ADHD issue or diagnosis as exemption and into parenting styles, which can be generational and cultural in difference. Some friends of mine are running into a lot of judgy pants looks in France for example, and I know some Irish parents who won't holiday in France for precisely this reason.

Excessive force, humiliation and discipline can produce the very behavior problems you want to avoid. On the other hand I did once see a couple with a child who had or they said he had ADHD/hyperactivity and he was absolutely wild. They seemed to be at a point where they were beyond exasperated at what to do.

No circumstances are identical, no parents are, nor are children.

And you would have no idea what effect you would have as a third party present to how it might affect how they discipline. They might not want to embarrass the child by correcting him or her in front of you. Or perhaps they were vilified on another occasion by another third party or embarrassed the child on another occasion and don't want to repeat the scene.

One can't really know for sure.

diveout · 25-06-2014 11:32am

OldNotWIse wrote: »

You're right, and some parents in more difficult circumstances manage to do a better job.

Ok. So what is your idea of ideal/perfect behavior in a four year old boy? You assume average IQ, you assume no sensory issues, normal sensitivities, stable background, no economic hardship, happy in school, two loving parents at home, no pathologies like ADHD, is neuro-typical, no bullying at school or in the neighborhood, no dietary issues...

Let's assume a perfect four year old boy in idylliic circumstances. What is your idea of how he should behave at all times? And how would you go about insuring that he does that?

And after you have come up with that plan, maybe come up with some plans for all the other myriad infinite variations that occur in different children. And let us all know how to raise our kids so they can fit into whatever YOUR ideal of a human should be.

Thanks.

Absolving yourself of parental responsibility.

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