Forum Feedback thread

Tom Dunne

Ok, as promised, I am opening a discussion on the forum itself.

As you are all probably now aware, we have added an extra moderator, helimachoptor as a first step in the process. This is not up for discussion in this thread, however I do appreciate there are calls for a moderator to be picked from the regulars and it is something we will actively look at in due course.

So, to the forum itself. I appreciate there will be some strong opinions and they are to be welcomed, however I do ask that they are kept civil and factual. Hearsay and conjecture will not be acknowledged.

Also please bear in mind that this is in relation to the forum - I don't have the foggiest idea about horses (despite being from Kildare, I know, I know) so semantics about horses and betting are utterly lost on me.

Finally, while I will be the main point of contact, other mods/cmods/admins may jump in from time to time to offer their opinions.

Over to you.

Slattsy

Firstly, i'd maybe consider stickying this thread as with Royal Ascot starting today this could get tangled up in a myriad of random threads that pop up here, and there will be a daily thread for Ascot.

Secondly, i strongly believe a forum mod should contribute to the forum. Im not sure if helimachoptor has an interest in HR but i'd be hopeful he was chosen because he has, and he's not just going to read over threads and infract/warn posters if they say something out of line. But hopefully this wont be the case.

@convert im not in anyway having a pop at you here, but i dont think i've ever seen you stick up a fancy or have an opinion on a race. So i'd welcome you to get involved a bit more. You cant be any worse of a tipster than the rest of us!!

ft9

Off topic does exactly what it says on the tin. If it's off topic it goes there. People getting infractions for posting about soccer etc on there is ridiculous.

Tips thread should allow a certain amount of chat relating to tips that have been given out.

ft9

Also an after timing thread should exist with screenshots mandatory. If people after time without the screenshot = ban.

Nulty

ft9 wrote: »

Also an after timing thread should exist with screenshots mandatory. If people after time without the screenshot = ban.

I am utterly against this

ft9

Why?

the groutch

In relation to the off-topic thread, the main problem is that there was never any ground rules or limitations laid out in advance.
So when a CMod who wouldn't generally frequent the forum came in an started applying rules to the thread which conflicted with the opinions of UrbanSea who while being a mod was considered "one of the guys", it's understandable that people got upset.
In future if a mod/cmod wants to put restrictions on a thread beyond the normal boards.ie rules, they need to be doing so at an early stage, and not just ad lib.

NaiveMelodies

Tips Thread is a complete joke, hate to think there are people following tips blind from lads who claim to have connections from every corner of the globe.(LITERALLY!!)
It really gets to me, and it's irrelevant whether or not they are winning, it's as good as trolling in my opinion.

Obviously there are certain people that are honest and very generously pass on genuine info but if there was a way to weed out the spoofers it would improve the quality of posts and posters.
It's incredible how the forum as a whole goes through periods of really informative and interesting discussion, and then to the other extreme when you notice the better posters decrease in activity as waves of absolute sh*tehawks take over and start threads on a 64 rated 9 year old gelding running in the back arse of back arses.

Nulty

ft9 wrote: »

Why?

Aftertiming is not any better with proof. I've seen guys get caught faking pictures of being slips etc. It's just not something that should be encouraged at all. If you've got enough respect around here and not known for showing off you'll get away with Aftertiming every now and again - a blind eye. I definitely don't want to see a thread devoted to it. Never.

Nulty

I'd like to hear why urban sea left. I don't know why it happened. Could someone please explain?

the groutch

only1stevo wrote: »

waves of absolute sh*tehawks take over and start threads on a 64 rated 9 year old gelding running in the back arse of back arses.

every race has a winner though, and alot of times the best tips are in mediocre races like that

NaiveMelodies

the groutch wrote: »

every race has a winner though, and alot of times the best tips are in mediocre races like that

A poor anecdote by me but there's no need for new threads on such topics... if there's no daily thread, start a daily thread or throw it in off topic thread.
Anyway it's not my main issue, my main issue is the arses who have recently set up camp in Tips Thread.

Goldcupfav

only1stevo wrote: »

Tips Thread is a complete joke, hate to think there are people following tips blind from lads who claim to have connections from every corner of the globe.(LITERALLY!!)
It really gets to me, and it's irrelevant whether or not they are winning, it's as good as trolling in my opinion.

Obviously there are certain people that are honest and very generously pass on genuine info but if there was a way to weed out the spoofers it would improve the quality of posts and posters.
It's incredible how the forum as a whole goes through periods of really informative and interesting discussion, and then to the other extreme when you notice the better posters decrease in activity as waves of absolute sh*tehawks take over and start threads on a 64 rated 9 year old gelding running in the back arse of back arses.

Excellent post and if these problems could be sorted the forum would improved for the better.

Nulty

only1stevo wrote: »

A poor anecdote by me but there's no need for new threads on such topics... if there's no daily thread, start a daily thread or throw it in off topic thread.
Anyway it's not my main issue, my main issue is the arses who have recently set up camp in Tips Thread.

I'm fairness convert has tried to do a job there and got no appreciation for it.

Gavin "shels"

Nulty wrote: »

I'd like to hear why urban sea left. I don't know why it happened. Could someone please explain?

I know he's in America for the summer so is it just a break? Same as last year?

NaiveMelodies

Nulty wrote: »

I'd like to hear why urban sea left. I don't know why it happened. Could someone please explain?

Urban left due to the ban on 'excessive' world cup discussion in the off topic forum.
Genuinely pissed off I can't read his views on Ascot this week.

NaiveMelodies

Nulty wrote: »

I'm fairness convert has tried to do a job there and got no appreciation for it.

No Convert tried to stop discussion in the tips forum.
I'm talking about the liars who claim to have contacts in every yard under the sun- has to be stopped out if possible.

If this isn't possible, the forum is fcuked imo.

helimachoptor

Lets leave out the speculation about Urbansea's departure, he's gone, that isn't going to change.

helimachoptor

only1stevo wrote: »

No Convert tried to stop discussion in the tips forum.
I'm talking about the liars who claim to have contacts in every yard under the sun- has to be stopped out if possible.

If this isn't possible, the forum is fcuked imo.

Its the internet, just because someone posts rubbish you dont have to believe it.

Frankly its impossible to say X user is 100% telling the truth about the stable hand in Y stud or whatever, people arent vetted.

NaiveMelodies

helimachoptor wrote: »

Lets leave out the speculation about Urbansea's departure, he's gone, that isn't going to change.

It's not speculation, I saw his post, I'm just relaying the facts.

It should be acknowledged that his departure was an almighty fcuk up by all concerned.




By the way welcome to the forum!

Slattsy

only1stevo wrote: »

No Convert tried to stop discussion in the tips forum.
I'm talking about the liars who claim to have contacts in every yard under the sun- has to be stopped out if possible.

If this isn't possible, the forum is fcuked imo.

How do you do that though mate?
You cant stop people posting regardless what sort of nonsense you or anyone think they're sprouting. Put them on ignore maybe?

Gregk961

Agreed about the tips thread I would certainly worry about some nieve people going overboard on the back of made up information and also good tips being lost among the muck (which happened with a bumper winner on sunday)

Nulty

helimachoptor wrote: »

Lets leave out the speculation about Urbansea's departure, he's gone, that isn't going to change.

On the contrary, I think it's pivotal as to why your here, why this thread is open and why everyone feels aggrieved. I'm not asking for anything other than for someone to describe the scenario that led to his departure. He was a user as much as a mod. If he feels the need to leave it's demonstrative of why we need a feedback forum at all and significantly related to what needs to be examined here.

That sounds very formal but it's the best way I can communicate it.

NaiveMelodies

Slattsy wrote: »

How do you do that though mate?
You cant stop people posting regardless what sort of nonsense you or anyone think they're sprouting. Put them on ignore maybe?

Yeah fair point and I can't think of any obvious solution at the moment.

I should use the ignore button more but my general point was that its diminishing the overall quality of the forum because I feel it puts off the better posters.
I don't follow these tips and even when the sound lads throw up info I'd never follow blindly fwiw.

Nulty

Slattsy wrote: »

How do you do that though mate?
You cant stop people posting regardless what sort of nonsense you or anyone think they're sprouting. Put them on ignore maybe?

I'd say it's impossible. And I'll also say that I could live without the tips thread for that reason. It's impossible to moderate.

helimachoptor

Nulty wrote: »

On the contrary, I think it's pivotal as to why your here, why this thread is open and why everyone feels aggrieved. I'm not asking for anything other than for someone to describe the scenario that led to his departure. He was a user as much as a mod. If he feels the need to leave it's demonstrative of why we need a feedback forum at all and significantly related to what needs to be examined here.

That sounds very formal but it's the best way I can communicate it.

All mods are users and all users have the right to close their account without having the reasons speculated on. If i closed my account for whatever reason i'd prefer it not be talked about on any forum.


Rather than look to the past decision of urbansea, It seems most people have a fair idea of what happened, so lets look at what can be done to help prevent another key user closing their account and improve the forum.

sdoc13

Nulty wrote: »

I'd say it's impossible. And I'll also say that I could live without the tips thread for that reason. It's impossible to moderate.

Agree this may be the answer. Maybe the tips thread is attracting people looking for an inside track which for the most part does not exist. Most people here want reasoned analysis of their own or other people's selections.

andyman

I think the main issue at hand has been put to bed really.

I know Beasty has a tough job as a CMod. GAA, Soccer and Rugby are 3 of the most volatile fora on the site and he has to look over them and he has done a good job overall.

He got it so, so wrong last week, though and the forum descended into chaos as a result. I like to think that we are generally a sound bunch who cause little to no trouble but if rules were applied properly, a lot of us should have been in trouble. This says to me that all parties agreed that the gun was jumped. I think he was wrong to go over Urban's head in the manner he did because in all honesty, nobody was doing any harm other than having a chat with users they've grown to become friends with over the years.

If there needs to be limitations put into the off topic thread, now is the time to apply them. Otherwise, we could easily find ourselves with a repeat situation.

tomaussie

only1stevo wrote: »

Urban left due to the ban on 'excessive' world cup discussion in the off topic forum.
Genuinely pissed off I can't read his views on Ascot this week.

No. Urban closed his account because his post was deleted in the off topic thread.

The post that was deleted went along the lines of 'are Brazil really that good?'.
Again, this post was in the off topic thread.

So he took a moral stance and deleted his account and I respect him for it. If more people took his stance then it would be less likely to happen in the first place.

I miss his contribution too Stevo.

Bateman

The very idea of having 'rules' in an off-topic thread is illogical IMO

Nulty

helimachoptor wrote: »

All mods are users and all users have the right to close their account without having the reasons speculated on. If i closed my account for whatever reason i'd prefer it not be talked about on any forum.


Rather than look to the past decision of urbansea, It seems most people have a fair idea of what happened, so lets look at what can be done to help prevent another key user closing their account and improve the forum.

I agree with your motives but I don't see how we can learn and try to avoid it unless we all know what happened. I'm all for avoiding past mistakes but I can't do that unless I know what went wrong in the first place.

I thought that should be clarified here so we can move forward.

kksaints

Bateman wrote: »

The very idea of having 'rules' in an off-topic thread is illogical IMO

There has to be rules of a certain degree but limits on the amount of discussion of a topic is a different thing.

As regards forum feedback in my opinion the problems started when the likes of Go Native started posting last October. He destroyed a lot of debate and started to goad and annoy a lot of users. Unfortunately he did it in a way which was trickey for the mods to deal with and this lead to a fair bit of abusive debate until he was finally banned after a good while. But by then the abusive type of debate had become common in the forum.

tomaussie

For what time period will this thread be open ?

kiers47

I'd have to agree with most of the sentiments via the tips and logs threads. They offer little in the way of actual insight and are primarily gambling focused. I think they would be better placed in the gambling fora.

Tom Dunne

ft9 wrote: »

Also an after timing thread should exist with screenshots mandatory. If people after time without the screenshot = ban.

I honestly have no idea what that means.

the groutch wrote: »

In relation to the off-topic thread, the main problem is that there was never any ground rules or limitations laid out in advance.
So when a CMod who wouldn't generally frequent the forum came in an started applying rules to the thread which conflicted with the opinions of UrbanSea who while being a mod was considered "one of the guys", it's understandable that people got upset.
In future if a mod/cmod wants to put restrictions on a thread beyond the normal boards.ie rules, they need to be doing so at an early stage, and not just ad lib.

A very good point.

only1stevo wrote: »

Tips Thread is a complete joke, hate to think there are people following tips blind from lads who claim to have connections from every corner of the globe.(LITERALLY!!)
It really gets to me, and it's irrelevant whether or not they are winning, it's as good as trolling in my opinion.

Obviously there are certain people that are honest and very generously pass on genuine info but if there was a way to weed out the spoofers it would improve the quality of posts and posters.
It's incredible how the forum as a whole goes through periods of really informative and interesting discussion, and then to the other extreme when you notice the better posters decrease in activity as waves of absolute sh*tehawks take over and start threads on a 64 rated 9 year old gelding running in the back arse of back arses.

As others have asked, how do we prove who is telling the truth and who is not? It's extremely difficult. Caveat Emptor.

Nulty wrote: »

I'd like to hear why urban sea left. I don't know why it happened. Could someone please explain?

Why don't you contact him and ask him? None of us really know and to be quite honest, speculation will not help.

tomaussie wrote: »

For what time period will this thread be open ?

Probably a week or two, we will see how it goes.

Backstreet Moyes

helimachoptor wrote: »

Its the internet, just because someone posts rubbish you dont have to believe it.

Frankly its impossible to say X user is 100% telling the truth about the stable hand in Y stud or whatever, people arent vetted.

What i don't understand is how ruling conversation out of the tips thread helps at all. If somebody posts up a horse without saying anything about a source surely being quizzed for information helps rule out people who are making up tips.

I agree with infractions for people abusing somebody about a tip not winning. But i seen people get yellow carded for congratulating people on winning tips which is just disgraceful and i can understand why it would turn people away from the thread.

Slattsy

Ai, there were a lot of bans handed out in the Tip Thread that were down right outrageous.

Tom, it could be worth sieving through it and see if they can be rescinded at all? TBH you'll be shocked at some of the infractions.

Tom Dunne

Slattsy wrote: »

Ai, there were a lot of bans handed out in the Tip Thread that were down right outrageous.

Tom, it could be worth sieving through it and see if they can be rescinded at all? TBH you'll be shocked at some of the infractions.

To be honest, I don't have the time to go through them.

The advice I would give is that if posters feel aggrieved, especially in light of the current situation, that they engage the Dispute Resolution Process. I will ensure that anyone who deals with the process is aware of the context within which the cards were given out.

andyman

I really don't understand how some people fail to grasp the tips thread.

Tips get lost in the clutter of chat and petty sniping. Eradicate all that and all you have is the tips. I saw Motivator saying he might get yellow carded for talking about where he got his tip from. That is allowed. What's not allowed is follow up chat and stuff like that. Part of tipping is disclosing as much as you can about the info received and it's one of the rules of the actual thread.

If people are getting warned and banned it's their own fault. Convert has warned us countless times on-thread and really, it's not that difficult to follow.

I do think the same punishment should be dished out to those who just post the horses name, time and meeting. They're breaking the rules too.

droidman123

andyman wrote: »

I really don't understand how some people fail to grasp the tips thread.

Tips get lost in the clutter of chat and petty sniping. Eradicate all that and all you have is the tips. I saw Motivator saying he might get yellow carded for talking about where he got his tip from. That is allowed. What's not allowed is follow up chat and stuff like that. Part of tipping is disclosing as much as you can about the info received and it's one of the rules of the actual thread.

If people are getting warned and banned it's their own fault. Convert has warned us countless times on-thread and really, it's not that difficult to follow.

I do think the same punishment should be dished out to those who just post the horses name, time and meeting. They're breaking the rules too.

The fact that convert posted countless warnings is quite irrelevant, some of the yellow and red cards given out were just ridiculous. In a tips thread there is always going to be follow on chat,like well done or unlucky etc. Its been said before,convert contributes little or nothing to the horse racing forum except waiting to type warnings and bans etc.she is the sole reason why I rarely post on the forum anymore,and I don't think I am the only one.I know the Admins won't like this post but I am telling it like it is

tomaussie

droidman123 wrote: »

The fact that convert posted countless warnings is quite irrelevant, some of the yellow and red cards given out were just ridiculous. In a tips thread there is always going to be follow on chat,like well done or unlucky etc. Its been said before,convert contributes little or nothing to the horse racing forum except waiting to type warnings and bans etc.she is the sole reason why I rarely post on the forum anymore,and I don't think I am the only one.I know the Admins won't like this post but I am telling it like it is

I agree. I have tried to stop posting too because of getting my hands slapped all the time. No room for personalities or a bit of banter. I'll stop posting entirely the next time I get infracted, warned or carded if I feel it's unfair.

andyman

droidman123 wrote: »

The fact that convert posted countless warnings is quite irrelevant, some of the yellow and red cards given out were just ridiculous. In a tips thread there is always going to be follow on chat,like well done or unlucky etc. Its been said before,convert contributes little or nothing to the horse racing forum except waiting to type warnings and bans etc.she is the sole reason why I rarely post on the forum anymore,and I don't think I am the only one.I know the Admins won't like this post but I am telling it like it is

How is it irrelevant? She gave us plenty of chances to adapt to the new rules of the thread and people kept ignoring them. It's as simple as that. If Convert had slapped warnings and infractions on people straight away, then you'd have a point. Fact of the matter is we were given numerous chances and they were ignored.

People complain that the tips thread is going the way of the previous thread, convert decides to stamp it out by having tips only, something I agree with and suggested. There's no happy medium with that thread. Tip the horse, explain where you got your source, post, win, thank the post.

It reeks of throwing the toys out of the pram. You can't have it both ways

Bangor Billy

We had a perfect example of the problem with the tips thread on Saturday. Krustydoyle posted a tip that he said had come from the yard. The horse ran poorly. He then posted an explanation that he said had come from the jockey explaining why the horse had disappointed. For that he got a yellow card as the mod said the explanation should have been posted in the daily thread. That is just bizarre.

We all like to feel appreciated, that is human nature. I have posted a couple of tips which have won and it was nice to receive positive comments thanking me for the tips. It would be a shame if that wasn't allowed in future.

droidman123

andyman wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? She gave us plenty of chances to adapt to the new rules of the thread and people kept ignoring them. It's as simple as that. If Convert had slapped warnings and infractions on people straight away, then you'd have a point. Fact of the matter is we were given numerous chances and they were ignored.

People complain that the tips thread is going the way of the previous thread, convert decides to stamp it out by having tips only, something I agree with and suggested. There's no happy medium with that thread. Tip the horse, explain where you got your source, post, win, thank the post.

It reeks of throwing the toys out of the pram. You can't have it both ways

I think you have missed my point Andy. I think there should be some follow on chat allowed,you don't.that's fair enough,our opinions differ there. My point was about convert in general.I don't mean to sound as if I am on a witch hunt here,but these issues have to be ironed out,they are the root cause of the problems in the horse racing forum in general.beasty certainly didn't help matters by steaming in and trying to take over.these are the things that irk people.

Bangor Billy

How about setting up a poll on the site. Do we want the tips thread to be strictly tips only or do we want limited, but not negative or aggressive, comments allowed? Poll open for say 48 hours and result to be binding?

Bateman

I don't really understand how anyone could be interested enough in after timing to be bothered about whether or not people are supplying screen shots, I certainly don't think it should be mandatory anyway, someone might want to add a winning bet to the aftertiming thread but it doesn't suit them to post a screen shot right there and then

the groutch

with the tips thread, if mods are concerned about the credibility of them as seems to be the case with the request of more detailed info about the source of tips, maybe the thread should have some sort of criteria such as a minimum post count, or having to request access like with the soccer forum.
that way we can be pretty sure of the reliability of sources without posters having to over-divulge, and would also eliminate alot of the risk of trolling/sniping.

Slattsy

Im of the opinion that unless someone slates a poster for a tip that is beaten; ie you muppet / lost me nuts on that you twat / it was shíte / dont post here again etc etc..... then a bit of post race chat is no harm at all.

When i say post race chat i mean stuff like; well done thanks / get in you beauty / unlucky / maybe next time / had no luck in running etc etc

Its a thread i dont really get too involved in myself, but i cant see a thread working when every post can only contain:

8.00 Ascot
Red Puppet 4/1
From my uncles neighbours cat in the yard

tomaussie

My suggestion for the tips thread - state, as safely as you can, where you received the tip. Allow people to comment, within the thread, on the running of the race that involved the tip. I think most people in racing know that good sources are very very rare. People who post 'tips' daily will be treated with caution by most sensible people. In a short period of time it will be fairly obvious who are reliable sources.

Now my mates call me sledgehammer as I call things as I see them so bearing that in mind forgive me if the following is clumsy.

Convert, I think you are a tad over zealous when it comes to punishing what you perceive to be sexist. I have not seen anything in the off topic thread that I would call sexist. Most guys like girls and like to talk about how attractive they are or indeed aren't. That is banter and not sexism. Let me be clear here, talking about how much you would like to sleep with a bird is not sexist. I think you should give this some thought going forward. The forum is male dominated and that must be considered rather than misinterpreted.

There is nothing more annoying then having a good laugh only for somebody to incorrectly label you as sexist or as making sexist comments. I don't think there is malice in any of the posters I've seen having a chat about women. I think if anything inappropriate was actually said then the regular contributors would be all over it. Me included.

I also think most posts (i accept some do have to be removed) should not be deleted when they are infracted, carded or warned. This would allow us to see what is deemed not acceptable. It would be an easy way to learn from other peoples mistakes and allow others not to make the same mistake.

I also think nothing should be off limits in the 'off topic' thread. Again, if it gets repetitive then the regulars will get bored and not comment thus ending any inane conversations.

NaiveMelodies

kiers47 wrote: »

I'd have to agree with most of the sentiments via the tips and logs threads. They offer little in the way of actual insight and are primarily gambling focused. I think they would be better placed in the gambling fora.

I think this is a great point and an obvious solution to the tips thread problem.
It's all gambling and offers no insight bar a blatant lie regarding the contact and the odds of said horse.

Genuine tips posted in daily threads/ festival thread or the off topic thread will be picked up by the regular users who are posting here due to their interest in horse racing, not the users who are posting spoof and who seem to get a sadistic kick by claiming to be in the know.

And Tom Dunne- this isn't a case of Caveat Emptor for me and for most of us I'd imagine- it's a case of improving the quality of the forum as this drivel, as I've stated before, doesn't encourage a better quality of poster from engaging.

darced

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