Midlands reloading

TriggerPL

Hey guys what story with midlands shooting center , if you join can u do the reloading course , or do u have to be shooting competitions ?

Cheers guys

Cass

The reloading scheme is for F-Class only. So you need to join both the range and the F-Class squad and compete in long range shooting.

TriggerPL

Surely it beneficial for more than f class shooters if people want to learn to reload
And I presume the cost is the same for every member ?

If you can't enjoy the benefits of reloading , what sort of money is it to buy .308 or .223 ammo in midlands ?

Cass

I have explained this numerous times over the years.

The reloading scheme was granted by the DoJ for F-Class/long range shooting ONLY to the NRAI. So it is not a range rule.

The NRAI sought reloading, and as they operate out of the Midlands it is only available to NRAI/F-Class/Long range shooters. The range itself did not seek reloading. It was granted for long range shooters to stay competitive so no reloading for anything other than this is permitted. This way all ammo, propellant, primers, etc. can be tracked and a case to keep it can be given. As a long range facility they are not looking to reload fro hunting purposes. As for other disciplines well if a member wants to partake and reloading helps (benchrest, match, TR, etc) then these are all covered under the banner of F-Class so reloading for them is allowed.

The yearly range fees are the same for all members. The range was established well before reloading was allowed. So members are members because they use the range facilities and not just to get reloading.

As for buying ammo on the range. It's not done. There is an armory, and the range controls the reloading components, but for factory ammo, it is not sold there.


There has been constant criticism of the reloading scheme since it was introduced to the Midlands. There is a sense of entitlement from some camps that because the "midlands" have it they should too. I said this before, but the NRAI have it, not the actual range, but also what have the other NGBs done for their members that wanted reloading. Nothing. They all refused it. The NRAI/Midlands has reloading because they sought it, and without reloaded ammo the long range lads would be at nothing.

A question for ya. It the NRAI did not seek reloading would we be having this conversation or would reloading be lost for good, as was the direction it was heading? The fact is reloading, however limited, is still here. If played correctly it might become available to more over time. The one thing for sure is with the NRAI/Midlands keeping the scheme running the door is already opened for other groups to follow suit, however since the introduction no other range/NGB has applied for it. Well none that i know off.

TriggerPL

Cheers for that , I was presuming that it was the range restricting it . Which I know now not to be that case . U covered everything I need to know .

So u bring ur own ammo to the range, am I correct in saying that ?

Thanks for taking the time to write that cass .

Cass

I don't intend to come across as blunt or gruff, but there has been a lot of bad feeling, rumors, accusations and speculation about the reloading scheme in the Midlands. People don't know or understand the ins and outs so either make make it up or do understand and simply want to stir the sh*t.

As i've said before the NARGC refused it, the NASRPC refused it, other NGBs like the Pony club, ICPSA, and NTSA did not need or want it. The NRAI, as a long range governing body, needed reloading as factory ammo is simply not good enough especially when every other country has reloading and competing against other nations where they have tailor made ammo with factory stuff has, and is, a waste of time.

TriggerPL wrote: »

So u bring ur own ammo to the range, am I correct in saying that ?

For anything other than F-Class i bring my own ammo. So my .17, my .308 hunting rifles, 6.5 rifle, shotguns, etc. I buy my ammo from an RFD and bring it with me. The reloading MUST be done at the range. We are not allowed or permitted to bring items home and reload at home.

Dian Cecht

How do you join the "F Class Squad"?

How does Benchrest come in under F Class banner? I read somewhere that F Class was F Open & F/TR & possibly TR as didn't F Open & F/TR derive from TR?

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

How do you join the "F Class Squad"?

Be a member of the Midlands, which is affiliated to the NRAI, gain membership to the NRAI through membership to the Midlands, go out and shoot F-Class.

Simple really. If you like the sport you can go about getting the right rifle and tools, but at the beginning you may use whatever rifle/gear you have and shoot in the Development squad. This caters specifically to newbies, lads that are curious about F-Class, and lads that want to shoot F-Class informally and not train for the Irish team.

None of this costs you more than your membership fee.

How does Benchrest come in under F Class banner? I read somewhere that F Class was F Open & F/TR & possibly TR as didn't F Open & F/TR derive from TR?

Not under the F-Class banner, but the NRAI banner. They are NGB for Benchrest, Match, TR, FTR, F-Open. Most fullbore stuff which i believe includes historic rifle too.

Dian Cecht

Cass wrote: »

Be a member of the Midlands, which is affiliated to the NRAI, gain membership to the NRAI through membership to the Midlands, go out and shoot F-Class.

Simple really. If you like the sport you can go about getting the right rifle and tools, but at the beginning you may use whatever rifle/gear you have and shoot in the Development squad. This caters specifically to newbies, lads that are curious about F-Class, and lads that want to shoot F-Class informally and not train for the Irish team.

None of this costs you more than your membership fee.

But isn't the development squad separate to the F Class squad? Isn't there a charge of €200 to join the F Class Squad? Or am I being misinformed?

So can development squad reload?

Cass wrote: »

Not under the F-Class banner, but the NRAI banner. They are NGB for Benchrest, Match, TR, FTR, F-Open. Most fullbore stuff which i believe includes historic rifle too.

What's "NGB"?

Not what you said above

Cass wrote: »

As for other disciplines well if a member wants to partake and reloading helps (benchrest, match, TR, etc) then these are all covered under the banner of F-Class so reloading for them is allowed.

As for historic rifle isn't there a crowd called VCRAI or something like that responsible for older rifles? tac who posts here has mentioned it a few times.

tac foley

tac who posts here is the president of the VCRAI.

Anybody who shoots older manually-operated - or even the rare semi-auto -ex-military style of long arm from the metallic cartridge era forward is very welcome to join with us.

If it is within the fireams law of Ireland to own, it qualifies, from 6mm up to 8mm. Open sights, of course, up to three hundred YARDS for those arms as issued. Those arms that have have better sights as issued get penalised in the score, as is right and proper. Military calibre target rifles and sharpshooter rifles with telescopic sights as issued, based on military or modified military actions, like the Carl Gustav CG63 or Kongsberg Arsenal equivalent - even P14 and L-E - are all included, although those with telescopic sights - a maximum of x4 magnification BTW - have their own particular 'weighted' competitions for fairness' sake.

The following short list is not totally inclusive - I'm sure that you can think of some more that fit in there -

6mm Navy Lee
30-40 Krag
Any 6.5x55 Swedish
Any 7x57 Mauser
Any 7mm Lebel
Any 7.65 Argentine Mauser
Any .303 British
Any calibre of Arisaka or Murata
Any .30-06 Springfield
Any as-issued 7x62x51/.308Win
Any converted L-E, as well.
Any 7.5x55 Swiss, IG11,K11,K31 and anything else based on the original Schmidt-Rubin design.
7.92x57 Mauser

...and anything else that fits in there that might not be easy to find ammunition for -

Any of the Mannlicher, Terni, Carcano, Kirrikale rifles and carbines, and so on.

We are due to have a shoot at An Riocht Ranges later on this summer - the third Sunday in September to be specific.

Feel free to join us over on www.vcrai.com

In view of the more 'modern' outlook of the vast majority of shooters on this forum, for whom anything over ten years old is positively paleolithic, I try to keep any mention of the VCRAI down to responding to direct questions about that type of shooting, so now I'll shut up.

tac

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

But isn't the development squad separate to the F Class squad? Isn't there a charge of €200 to join the F Class Squad? Or am I being misinformed?

I thought you did not know?

Dian Cecht wrote:

How do you join the "F-Class Squad"?

Why ask if you already know?

Anyway for clarification, any other fee other than the membership fee of the Midlands is for F-Class lads that are training on the Irish Team. Those fees (the amount i don't know, but you obviously do) are for competitions entrance fees, and other expenses that relate solely to those that are on the Irish squad and competing abroad. It also, IIRC, covers them for a period of 2 years. It DOES NOT apply to anyone shooting on the range that is not training for the actual Irish Team.

The development squad is still under the banner of F-Class. It is a separate squad consisting of people off varying levels of ability. It would be unfair to lump a lad, with a standard hunting rifle into a crowd of lads with the best in custom gear, and expect him to keep up or even learn. All disciplines of fullbore shooting still come under the remit of the NRAI and as such reloading.

What's "NGB"?

National Governing Body. The body recognised by the Irish Sports Council as representing that specific sport/discipline.

Not what you said above

A mistake in terminology. Whenever i refer to long range shooting at the Midlands i call it F-Class. It is the most popular form of long range so while lads do shoot the other disciplines i call it all F-Class. Much like when a lad calls a bullet a head. Not right, but i know what he is talking about. I can apologise if you'd like for leaving you so confused or not using the correct terminology? It was not intended.

As for historic rifle isn't there a crowd called VCRAI or something like that responsible for older rifles? tac who posts here has mentioned it a few times.

The VCRAI were an association, and still are AFAIK. They do not have NGB status. Of course if i'm wrong and they are a ISC recognised NGB then please someone correct me. Also as i have less than no interest in old guns i do not know the specifics, but there is a difference between vintage, historical, classic, etc.

What i do know is Historic falls under the banner of the NRAI.

Dian Cecht

I'm even more confused now

As for not knowing, I asked how would someone join it not what it was

So if NRAI are NGB for historic rifle can they reload as historic rifle falls under banner of nrai and their disciplines all come under F class so therefore participants can reload on either the development squad or the F class squad or am I reading this thread arseways?

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

I'm even more confused now

I don't know what is confusing so. I'll try again, but if you want specifics then ask me specifically about what is confusing you.

I don't shoot on the Irish team. I shoot in the development squad. Both come under the F-Class squad, as does match, TR, etc, etc. All disciplines of long range shooting. The squads are separated to accommodate newbies, lads not interested/unable to shoot for the Irish team, and to bring along intermediate shooters.

If a lad on the development squad wants to shoot for the Irish team he simply talks to the Irish team captain, and they will bring him on board. Vice versa. If a lad, like i did, cannot continue to shoot for the Irish team wants to take a step back from the Team end of things, but continue to shoot he goes into the development squad.

The range is 1,200 yards with 24 firing points accommodating two lads to a firing point.



So there is more than enough room to let everyone shoot at the same time.



The development squad is a great idea. I wish i had it when i started. You are not intimidated or put off by shooting next to lads that have years of experience and even medals under their belt. You learn at your own pace and with experienced lads shooting on the same squad you have the benefit of their knowledge to help you with.

You DON'T need a full custom FTR rig. Actually i would advise against buying one from the start. Come out, use your current rig, and shoot away. If you like the sport then you can decide to upgrade whenever you can afford to. However this DOES NOT stop you from shooting in any NRAI discipline, and allows you to join the reloading scheme.

To join the reloading scheme you shoot for a bit in the squad (any of them), and then you put your name forward to the lads at the MNSCI. They forward your details to the DoJ (because they control it), and you can now get your reloading gear and start to reload. A course is available for anyone that wishes to learn the basics of reloading. You then have the experienced lads that will help you perfect your load through tips and techniques they have learned over time.

The fee you mention is ONLY for the Irish Team. Not for anyone else. So my comment about the membership fees being your only cost is true (outside guns, ammo, etc). I never paid any fee, but as i said above i don't shoot for the Team. With the team going to at least two international shoots a year the fee was to cover registration for shoots, and to know who was committed to the team. It runs for 2 years, afaik. Any other fee is competition related as with all competitions so it's not a surprise when you turn up to a comp and are asked to pay to enter.

I think that covers most things if not everything. Unless there is something i have missed in which case ask.

As for not knowing, I asked how would someone join it not what it was

The fact is you asked an innocent question and then followed up with another one that even i was slightly unaware of seems a "misrepresentation" by yourself. If that is not the case then fair enough but from my viewpoint you ask a question, claiming to not know how to join, yet apparently knowing other details that go beyond basics.

If you know more than you are letting on then please do me a favour and stop trying to drag this thread out by asking "leading" questions when you know the answer(s). I am being upfront and honest and answering question fully on the pretense you don't know anything. If something is bothering you, if you have a specific question then ask.

I really don't have time for the "i don't know any better" poition.

So if NRAI are NGB for historic rifle can they reload as historic rifle falls under banner of nrai and their disciplines all come under F class so therefore participants can reload on either the development squad or the F class squad or am I reading this thread arseways?

I'd assume so. The Midlands also store Black powder as well as propellant so i assume this is for those type of rifle. However as i said above i have less than no interest in old rifles so if you are referring to reloading for Enfields, Gustav's then again you'd need to ask the range. I've never seen anyone doing it, but then again that does not mean it does not happen. On a good day i see a few other FTR lads only. I rarely even see the F-Open lads as they shoot on alternate days/weekends to FTR. So i definitely do not see historic or classic/vintage lads.



@ tac foley - I see your post about the VCRAI, and the edit, but i do not see any clarification on the issue of the position of the VCRAI. Dian Cecht asked why the NRAI has NGB status over this instead of the VCRAI. AS president perhaps you can answer the following:

1. Are the VCRAI an NGB?
2. Do they represent classic/historic shooting?
3. Are the NRAI actually the NGB for this shooting?

Thanks.

Dian Cecht

As for "misrepresentation" do you check under you're bed for monsters before you get into the bed? Seriously, I've heard stories, whispers, rumours and what not and sometimes it's nice to get the right version.

Specific questions so far

what's Irish Sports Council?

what's the difference between an NGB and an association?

why does recognition of ISC seem to be so important?

can an association be recognised by this isc?

bravestar

Dian Cecht wrote: »

As for "misrepresentation" do you check under you're bed for monsters before you get into the bed? Seriously, I've heard stories, whispers, rumours and what not and sometimes it's nice to get the right version.

Specific questions so far

what's Irish Sports Council?

what's the difference between an NGB and an association?

why does recognition of ISC seem to be so important?

can an association be recognised by this isc?

Whatever you have heard, as a new member there , starting out in FTR , all I can say is I've never met a bunch of blokes more welcoming, friendly and willing to help you out.

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

As for "misrepresentation" do you check under you're bed for monsters before you get into the bed?

Sometimes. :P

Seriously, I've heard stories, whispers, rumours and what not and sometimes it's nice to get the right version.

You know the old saying. Never let the truth get in the way of a good lie. The reloading, as i said at the start of this thread, has envoked some serious anger in some people, annoyance in others, and for want of a better term, jealousy in others. The Midlands/NRAI have been accused of making back room deals to get reloading. They have been accused of "selling out"" others to get it. The truth, however boring, is simple. They petitioned the DoJ for it, the DoJ responded by accepting submissions from all individuals, groups, NGBs, and associations. In the first run only the NRAI sought it. In the second, i believe the VCRAI applied too. That is all. No one else applied. So the anger at not having reloading was not directed at the head people of the various groups for not applying for their members, but rather the NRAI/Midlands for getting it. Little did some know that the groups/NGBs they are members of did not apply. Most know now, but still hold some sort of grudge that the midlands have it. I don't know of anyone trying to apply since.

It annoys me to no end. It would be akin to me being pissed at you for having a .308 rifle when i don't even though i never bothered to apply for one. Simplistic example but you et my meaning. I've asked this before and never got an answer. What deal could the NRAI do to get reloading? Seriously. What has the NRAI got that the DoJ could want? The answer is simple. NOTHING. Whatever the NRAI has is granted at the discretion of the DoJ/An Gardaí. We do not have a right to firearms or reloading. If the DoJ wanted to take something form us they do not need us to deal with them they can simply take it by introducing an SI or amending the Act to ban it.

what's ISC?

Irish Sports Council. As above i'm just using acronyms.

what's the difference between an NGB and an association?

An NGB has applied to the Irish sports council, and the worldwide governing body to be granted "controlling" status over specific sport/discipline. Like the NTSA for Olympic shooting. The ICPSA for clays. The NARGC for game clubs.

An association is a club with no governing body status. Unless i'm corrected, like the VCRAI. A collection.group of like minded guys enjoying their sport.

why does recognition of ISC seem to be so important?

An NGB may apply to the ISC for grants and funding whereas an association, afaik, has no right to the same. To compete on an international level a sport must be recognised by the worldwide body. So in the case of the NRAI they had to apply for their charter to ICFRA (International Confederation of Fullbore Rfile Assocaitons). The sports council will only recognise these bodies otherwise they would be dealing with every little group, club or association. IOW thousands instead of about 30.

can an association be recognised by this isc?

As above. To be recognised by the ISC an association must apply to the worldwide governing body of their choosen sport, and once obtained they must then apply to the ISC for recognition. If grantd on both ends they can then be classed as an NGB and enjoy any/all benefits that are attached to such a status. I doubt, but cannot say for certain, that an association would be recognised. As said above if they were the ISC could end up dealing with hundreds/thousands of groups rather than a central body. Even among all the sporting NGBs the ISC preferred to, and in some cases demanded, to deal with a representative group consisting of all bodies. It was known as the SSAI, and now the FSAI. However that was pissed away, but there are a dozen threads on the matter and i'm not getting into that now/here.

Dian Cecht

OH Holy God :eek: There's more to this than I thought

Cass

There always is.

Dian Cecht

Right, been trying to get my head around this.

Why is it so important to be the NGB for something unless you want money from ISC?

Sure once people can participate in the discipline does it matter who the "boss" is?

TriggerPL

Omg !! What have I done !

Look I've done a deal for a blaser lrs2 . All I want to know is can I join midland , join the development squad and Lear to reload and what caliber would be cheapest/best for reloading

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Right, been trying to get my head around this.
Why is it so important to be the NGB for something unless you want money from ISC?

In every shooting discipline, not just F-class, it's the NGB that can pick the team to represent Ireland (if there's international competition) and it's usually the NGB that represents that sport to both the ISC and (in our community's case) the DoJ when legislation is being changed (or when changes are sought). In some sporting disciplines, the NGB also sets the sport's rulebook (though many use the international rulebook). In every sporting discipline, the NGB is responsible for tracking national averages, national records, and running national championships.

For the ordinary shooter, it doesn't matter a huge amount unless it all goes pear-shaped. For the sport as a whole, and for the seriously competitive shooter, it matters quite a lot.

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote:

Why is it so important to be the NGB for something unless you want money from ISC?

Any grants/funding from the ISC is the least of the reasons to be an NGB. Even if successful the amounts, i believe, are a pittance. Plus with most lads financing themselves it's somewhat irrelevant. The funding would not be enough to cover the entirety of the people shooting in that sport/discipline.

The main reasons are to be able to represent your country, and have representation to the likes of the DoJ, etc. for the people involved. Up until a few years ago Irish shooters could not compete as Ireland in long range/F-Class because we did not have NGB status. So any comps won could not be rewarded with medals, and each guy had to compete in individual comps as Irish shooters, but not shooting for Ireland.

As i said above most sports are worldwide. As such there is always a worldwide governing body. Much like FIFA for soccer. They lay down the rules for international comps and demand that the team shooting has been recognised by them, and represents their country. I don't know the ins and outs of other organisations, but it's the same with the NTSA.

Dian Cecht wrote:

Sure once people can participate in the discipline does it matter who the "boss" is?

For the majority of people that have no interest in competing at any level, no. It doesn't matter. However for the reasons above, and for those that do want to push themselves it is important.

Omg !! What have I done !

Started a bloody long drawn out thread. :P

Look I've done a deal for a blaser lrs2 . All I want to know is can I join midland , join the development squad and Lear to reload and what caliber would be cheapest/best for reloading

Joining the Midlands/NRAI for the purpose of getting reloading without any interest in long range shooting will not work. IOW if anyone is in it just to be able to reload then forget it. However if you want to shoot long range, and have a genuine interest then you can join, follow the guidelines above for getting onto the squad, and eventually onto the reloading scheme.

We have had lads come in and ask "how do i get reloading". When asked if they shoot long range, etc. they simply say "i've no interest in that, i just want reloading". They are politely told it won't happen. Reloading is still a fragile thing. The NRAI with the Midlands are keeping the practice alive, and will not jeopardise it for anyone.

As for caliber. The three main ones are 6.5x284, 7mm (and derivatives), and .308. There are a couple of others but none that are competitive.

tac foley

I'd like to draw the attention of readers here to the basic tenet of the VCRAI -

'The VCRAI was formed in late 2008 by a group of members from various clubs around the country and has as its aim the promotion and development of the sport of Vintage & Classic target rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland, and to foster associations with like-minded shooters in other countries to the benefit of all of who love old guns. We therefore welcome members from all clubs. The VCRAI regularly holds competitions both in Ireland and abroad, including recent trips to the world famous NRA UK Bisley range. Range days are held throughout the year. One of the appealing elements of this type of target shooting is the simplicity of equipment needed - just one person and one vintage or classic rifle.'

Although small by most standards the VCRAI is nevertheless well-supported on a totally voluntary basis by its members, drawn from all over the island of Ireland to a wind-blown and often wet or foggy range - An Riocht at Castlemaine in Co Kerry - to take part in the competitions out to 300 yards.

It is not an NGB, but is nevertheless not only affiliated to the UKNRA at Bisley, but is, we are led to believe, widely regarded by the DoJ as akin to an NGB, having been introduced by Mr Craven of The Midlands back in 2008, when we were first set up, at that time, actually at the Midlands ranges. The increasing interest in the affordable shooting of older firearms, within the historical context of the three-hundred yard range limit, and in the our classic shooting positions, seems to have renewed the interest of a certain section of the shooting community, if the license applications and resultant sales of suitable firearms and ammunition over the last six years or so is anything to go by. In particular, the increasing popularity of the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin and K31 rifles, with their incredibly accurate GP11 surplus ammunition, is more or less down to the efforts of association members and their keenth to acquire one of finest and most accurate of all former military longarms. Most of those examples we see [including both of mine] have been far longer in private hands back in Switzerland than they were ever in service. I'd like to point out, too, that the VCRAI is, to my knowledge, the only shooting association whose members compete in four positions at different ranges - unlike most others, that stay at 300 yards/meters and shoot whatever it is that they shoot, whatever position they adopt.

I am unaware that the NRAI has made any claim to be the spiritual 'home' of classic rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland. In any event, I have not noticed any marked movement by that organisation into the fostering of such shooting interests, apart from the odd mention of 'classic rifle'. As you yourself pointed out so succinctly, old guns have no interest for you whatsoever - a point of view that I'm sure is shared by the vast majority of shooters who visit the Midlands. It is therefore up to little associations like the VCRAI, made up of enthusiastic and knowledgeable amateurs and their older rifles, to fill that important gap in our shooting interests without having the benefit of the support, in whatever form it might take, of a national organisation that is more intent on garnering recognition for its present-day shooters [rightly so] than living in the past, as those of us in the VCRAI do.

tac

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

Although small by most standards the VCRAI is nevertheless well-supported on a totally voluntary basis by its members, .......

As is most every sport. I'm not making light of it, but no shooting takes place in this country, as in most, without the voluntary work of the members/shooters associated to that sport. From those that pay their range fees to those that donate their time to the sport/range. All done for the love of the sport.

It is not an NGB, but is nevertheless not only affiliated to the UKNRA at Bisley, but is, we are led to believe, widely regarded by the DoJ as akin to an NGB,

That clears up one aspect, but begs another question. Why affiliate to the NRAUK, and not the NRAI?

Also, and without nit picking, "akin" is not an actual NGB. So when it comes down to it you do not enjoy the privileges NGB status may grant.

I am unaware that the NRAI has made any claim to be the spiritual 'home' of classic rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland

To be clear the NRAI have made no such assertion. They, nor any representative from them, have made any such declaration on this forum.

I, on the other hand, made the remark that i believed they were the NGB for such shooting. I also asked for correction on that matter above because as i have said numerous times both here and in other threads i don't know much about old guns. I am lead to believe there is a difference, but honestly Vintage, classic, historical, etc. all mean the same thing to me. Old.

The midlands/NRAI host historical shoots, and facilitate black powder shooting. As an NGB they may represent the country whereas the VCRAI not being an NGB would not have the same recognition. Yes your members can shoot as individuals, and fair play to them, but going on past experiences without NGB status they cannot represent the country as an Irish Team. Also if they are affiliated to the NRAUK would that not cause problems too?


Let me clarify one point here. This thread started out as a simple question which i answered. Dian Cecht then took it in another direction. He also mentioned the VCRAI, and that is the reason why attention has been drawn to the association. I am not on some vendetta against the VCRAI. To be so, i would need a reason, which i don't have. I don't claim to know it all, and in some cases a little information can be a dangerous thing. However i am trying to answer all questions openly an honestly. However i also have questions that i need answering.

What i would like to know is this. Why does the VCRAI not apply for NGB status? If, as you claim, the NRAI are only the "spiritual home" of such shooting (not sure whether to use classic, vintage, etc) then surely they are not represented and a vacancy exists that the VCRAI can fill.

TriggerPL

Forget it il buy a airsoft gun

Sparks

TriggerPL wrote: »

Forget it il buy a airsoft gun

I hate to tell you this, but their politics are worse...

TriggerPL

Sparks wrote: »

I hate to tell you this, but their politics are worse...

Can I join the development squad and learn/reload my own ammo ? And what caliber should I be looking into ?

Cass

Join the range and the NRAI, put your name forward for F-Class, then the reloading and there is no reason you cannot do it.

As for caliber as i said above the three main calibers are 6.5x284, 7mm, and .308. These are the three main calibers used in FTR and F-Open. Macth rifle, benchrest varies, but other calibers include but are not limited to 6mmBR, .223, etc. However the development squad is designed for lads starting off to use the gun and caliber they have. This negates the need to buy a specific caliber and invest a lot of money into a rifle when you are not sure if you want to stay at the sport.

So in short any caliber you want to start with is fine, but the .308 is probably the best all rounder.

TriggerPL

Cheers lad the blaser comes with a 6.5x55 , but interchangeable barrel so I could just buy a .308 .

Cheers for the reply

Cass

6.5x55 with factory ammo would go as far as 800. Anything after, and sometimes up to that, is a waste. The factory stuff is just not good enough. With reloaded the 6.5x55 would easily do 1,000 so no need to go changing barrels just yet.

Go over sometime you get a chance, have a look around, talk with a few people and then work with what you have until you decide which way you want to go. IOW keep the cost low at the start.

tac foley

Cass - You asked why we chose to affiliate to Bisley, actually to the UK NRA, whose home is located there. It was made very plain to us at that time that in order to continue to use the facilities at the Midlands that we would have to drop the 'I' off association title.

We chose not to do that, and were therefore obliged to look elsewhere for range facilities that did not require a name-change. A point here - I did NOT say that the VCRAI is the 'virtual home' of anything, although by inference from its very title, it focuses principally on older-style rifles and carbines, usually ex-military in nature.

IF the VCRAI were ever to go looking for a base that would allow its members to shoot further than 300 yards, then it would have to be one where there were no strings attached that would require us to change any part of it that currently exists.

In any case, VCRAI members who want to compete as individuals in classic vintage arms shoots of the kind that we shoot in the VCRAI competitions are able to do so at Bisley, or anywhere else for that matter. However, Bisley has not only inumerable competitions in which to compete, but literally hundreds of fellow 'old gun shooters' with whom to share the experience at the world-famous home of long-range shooting of all kinds. The VCRAI-style shooter is not a funny anachronism there, with his strange old ióc of a gun, but is just one or two or three of hundreds of other shooters of old guns from all over the Commonwealth and ROW. I have to say that the cachet of being associated, albeit in a very small way, with an organisation and set-up with such international fame and prestige, is very heartening.

As for why the VCRAI does not apply for NGB status, the answer is linked inextricably to the point detailed above. However, at the time the now-defunct SSAI was the body tasked with bestowing NGB status. As they disbanded several years ago, it therefore is of little relevancy to bother now, especially in view of the likely price to our organisation's very name. Having 'Ireland' in the name is very important to us, as you can appreciate.

Anyhow, I've drifted away from your thread long enough. I think that I've answered your questions as much as I'm prepared to do on a public forum, and I suspect that the readers here will make their own minds up about the VCRAI and join us or not. This is categorically not a trawl for membership.

Best to all here, no matter what you shoot.

tac
www.vcrai.com

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

It was made very plain to us at that time that in order to continue to use the facilities at the Midlands that we would have to drop the 'I' off association title.

We chose not to do that, and were therefore obliged to look elsewhere for range facilities that did not require a name-change.

Really!!!!

I must ask tomorrow and confirm that. Having met some of the lads from the VCRAI on the range at the time the VCRAI began to take up residency i thought i would be seeing a lot more of them. Then there was a split of some sort within the association, people stopped turning up, the VCRAI cabin sat in the yard for years, and never once did anyone return.

I digress. Why would they insist on such a thing? Why would they, to put it bluntly, expel the VCRAI from the range over a seemingly trivial matter? Was it a trivial matter or did the "I" hold more importance than simply to finish off the Acronym of the association?

A point here - I did NOT say that the VCRAI is the 'virtual home' of anything, although by inference from its very title, it focuses principally on older-style rifles and carbines, usually ex-military in nature.

I never said you did. You said, and i quote:

tac foley wrote:

I am unaware that the NRAI has made any claim to be the spiritual 'home' of classic rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland

To which i replied:

Cass wrote:

To be clear the NRAI have made no such assertion. They, nor any representative from them, have made any such declaration on this forum.

and:

Cass wrote:

If, as you claim, the NRAI are only the "spiritual home" of such shooting (not sure whether to use classic, vintage, etc) then surely they are not represented and a vacancy exists that the VCRAI can fill

So you see i made no such assertion about the VCRAI, but responded to your claim that the NRAI was only the spiritual home of such shooting.

IF the VCRAI were ever to go looking for a base that would allow its members to shoot further than 300 yards, then it would have to be one where there were no strings attached that would require us to change any part of it that currently exists.

Once again i am stunned that what you claim happened, happened. That there is not more of a back story to it than simply the issue of the letter "I" from your acronym. However as said i will makes inquiries tomorrow and find out exactly what happened. So this:

tac foley wrote:

I think that I've answered your questions as much as I'm prepared to do on a public forum............

To me is a cop out to avoid discussing the entire issue. Instead i am getting cherry picked statements from you that i must now verify instead of being told the whole story. However i will do so as i want the allegations you have made towards the Midlands range, my range, answered. Openly and publicly. Warts and all as they say. If it was the sole cause, as you claim, and the "I" did not represent a "legal" issue among NGBs/governing bodies then i'll be embarrassed that such action was taken. IOW in "malice" of sorts. If there is more to it, and you cherry picked the details you wanted to share then i will continue this.

In any case, VCRAI members who want to compete as individuals in classic vintage arms shoots of the kind that we shoot in the VCRAI competitions are able to do so at Bisley, or anywhere else for that matter.

As individuals. Not as a representative of their country. Might be fine for the majority, but for the few that wish to go further it's not an option.

As for why the VCRAI does not apply for NGB status, the answer is linked inextricably to the point detailed above.

• The allegation that the NRAI insisted you drop the "I"?
• That the NRAI or some other NGB actually holds the NGB status?
• Your affiliation to the NRAUK?

Which one?

However, at the time the now-defunct SSAI was the body tasked with bestowing NGB status.

Really?

The SSAI was an association of NGBs, representatives from the DoJ, ISC, and other interested parties. It was formed so the various shooting bodies would represent the interests of the entire shooting community to the DoJ, An Gardaí, etc.. How would these people/NGBs bestow NGB status on another group? The only group able to bestow NGB status on an association is the governing body. So as i said earlier in the thread that would be ICFRA for NRAUK, NRAI, etc. and ISSF for the NTSA. Once NGB status have been granted then the ISC would welcome input from them. However the SSAI at no time had the authority to bestow or take NGB status from any group.

As they disbanded several years ago, it therefore is of little relevancy to bother now, especially in view of the likely price to our organisation's very name. Having 'Ireland' in the name is very important to us, as you can appreciate.

I've pretty much dealt with that issue above, but while it comes up again i'll add this. If it's so important then please tell me this.

• How happy are the members that they would rather compete among themselves than have a chance to represent their country in an official capacity?
• Would they not rather hang their own flag and be a separate entity? Their own entity?
• Why would they not hammer out a deal with whichever governing body runs vintage rifle shooting?
• Does the NRAI actually hold NGB status over this as i assumed?
• If not then what difference would it make to them if there was an "I" in your title? If they were not the NGB then all you are doing is using the range.
• If so the question is still valid. What difference does the "I" make? As an arm of the NRAI it's covered with the "I" in the NRAI.

Anyhow, I've drifted away from your thread long enough.

And raised more questions than answers. However i can remedy that in the coming days.

This is categorically not a trawl for membership.

It's okay. Posts 10, 23 took care of that. However we are always happy to help our "vintage"" brethren.

Dian Cecht

Gosh! This is getting hard to follow ! (but I working on it)

So this NGB stuff is more about wearing an Ireland jersey? While I can understand that some lads may want this I have to ask is why is it such a big deal?

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

So this NGB stuff is more about wearing an Ireland jersey?

No, it isn't just about that, and you've already read two people telling you all the things it is about.

While I can understand that some lads may want this I have to ask is why is it such a big deal?

As with many things, if you have to ask...

Dian Cecht

Sparks wrote: »

No, it isn't just about that, and you've already read two people telling you all the things it is about....

Well apparently the money is not worth the hassle. So what have I missed?

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Well apparently the money is not worth the hassle. So what have I missed?

Official recognition of your sport, the ability for your clubs to apply for capital grants (where the money very much is worth the hassle), greater local support for those clubs, recognition within the DoJ (which on an official level depends on things like this), autonomy over your sport's rulebook to whatever degree your international body allows, national records and national championships that actually *are* the national records and national championships, and on a personal level, winning a medal for your country in international competition, which even for jaded cynics who think this country has more flaws than virtues by several orders of magnitude, is a pretty nice thing.

So you're missing a lot, really.

Dian Cecht

Thanks for that Sparks. So money is/could actually be a major consideration.

I suppose a medal in an Irish Jersey would be nice alright

TriggerPL

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Thanks for that Sparks. So money is/could actually be a major consideration.

I suppose a medal in an Irish Jersey would be nice alright

Already got 2 Irish jerseys in 2 different sports ! Ya get bored of the politic involved after a while !!

Dian Cecht

TriggerPL wrote: »

Already got 2 Irish jerseys in 2 different sports ! Ya get bored of the politic involved after a while !!

Fair dues to ya

Yep, I'm beginning to realise politics & the need for money is inherent in every sport if you want to get on in it

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Thanks for that Sparks. So money is/could actually be a major consideration.

For the individual clubs and ranges, it can be downright useful (damn near everything other than bullets and targets on a range counts as capital equipment in that grant and ranges like Courtlough have gotten decent levels of funding in the past both from the national grant and local grants. Individual athletes can also go for carding grants, but that's less of a concern for the average plinker you're talking about, who wouldn't be interested in chasing after the Olympics. For the NGB itself, no, the amount of money in the core funding from the ISC isn't worth the effort normally, not until the NGB gets above a certain size (there are auditing costs and effort required that pretty much negates the point of the grant until you get above a set amount - at one point I remember doing the maths on the NTSA's grant and realising that between the audit fees eating half of it and the manhours required to apply for it and maintain the paperwork, we were effectively earning less than minimum wage for those manhours in terms of how much net money was being taken home -- literally, If we'd walked into McDonalds and flipped burgers for as many hours a week as the ISC was costing us, we'd have had more cash to put in the NTSA coffers (well, okay, our taxes would have screwed that up because we had day jobs, but if we hadn't had day jobs, then the math worked out).

I suppose a medal in an Irish Jersey would be nice alright

It has its charms

Nightforce 65X55

Lads , I started looking at a thread about reloading in the Midlands and after a head spinning post by cass have almost lost the will to go on. Politics is killing this sport , have we all forgotton why we are involved in the sport ?

Well I for one enjoy it, but all this bickering amongst ourselves is really making it hard to enjoy.

Mods , this thread has gone way off topic , Can you split it and start another about all the Political B*** S*** past , present and Future so that the real shooters , that enjoy the sport and not the arguments can get on with this forum and can ignore all the BS.

Thanks

Sparks

The problem with all that is that the shooters who want nothing to do with the politics keep reelecting the same eejits every year who cause all the politics. Maybe if the people who are fed up to the back teeth with all the ****e just showed up at an AGM and voted out the people causing the ****e and voted in some people with no interest in ****e, there'd be less ****e around to spoil things for everyone (and I happily count myself amongst "everyone" there).

Just a thought.

Nightforce 65X55

Sparks wrote: »

The problem with all that is that the shooters who want nothing to do with the politics keep reelecting the same eejits every year who cause all the politics. Maybe if the people who are fed up to the back teeth with all the ****e just showed up at an AGM and voted out the people causing the ****e and voted in some people with no interest in ****e, there'd be less ****e around to spoil things for everyone (and I happily count myself amongst "everyone" there).

Just a thought.

Sparks ,

Ive been there and Done that !

Thats why I have moved away completely from the main stream organisations and clubs , I got tired of banging my head against the brick wall of stupidity in the sport. I have now got back to the point where I Enjoy the sport once again.

That is why I ask you or another mod to split this thread

Put the politics BS in a place of its own , then if people want to be involved , its their choice, and the rest of us can get on with actually enjoying our sport the way we want to.

Cass

Nightforce 65X55 wrote:

Mods , this thread has gone way off topic , Can you split it and start another

Nightforce 65X55 wrote: »

That is why I ask you or another mod to split this thread

If it need splitting it'll be done. Stop back seat Modding.

Put the politics BS in a place of its own , then if people want to be involved , its their choice, and the rest of us can get on with actually enjoying our sport the way we want to.

This thread will have no effect on your ability to enjoy your sport. Turn off your computer and it's like it never happened.

From posts, questions, and answers the thread has diverged from it's original topic. It happens them all. However it's other members of this forum that asked the questions so just because you don't want to talk or read about it, does not mean others do not.

Unlike other places we do not hide away from or prohibit the discussion of politics.