Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

Nerdlingr

Why did they all drink to ygritte though? It wasnt like she was any major player or head of a clan. She was a lookout, a foot soldier... I think they over stated her importance to be honest.

Mickeroo

Daith wrote: »

So because someone hasn't mentioned skeletons in the show before then it's impossible? Isn't the whole point of Bran's journey is that he's going further North than most people alive or dead?

Nobody said impossible, it was just unexpected and seemed a bit out of place. Only bad fantasy has no internal consistency when it comes to these kinds of things. Anyway as I said, the scene didn't really bother me.

Beniof and Weiss acually refer to the skeletons as "wights" in this interview so I guess they are just more decomposed than usual wights like I said, makes sense since they're so far north, it was the agility that seemed odd to me.

Nody

Daith wrote: »

Only if it's cool though.

As long as they look like Sandworms from Dune I'm all for it; we can have them eat up part of Danysis army as she's walking around a random desert and tell everyone to not make any vibrations...

Witcher

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why did they all drink to ygritte though? It wasnt like she was any major player or head of a clan. She was a lookout, a foot soldier... I think they over stated her importance to be honest.

She meant something to Jon and she was a Wildling.

Same with the other two: Grenn-Jon, Mag-Mance, it's just highlighting that they have both suffered losses in a futile conflict.

Daith

Mickeroo wrote: »

Beniof and Weiss acually refer to the skeletons as "wights" in this interview so I guess they are just more decomposed than usual wights like I said, makes sense since they're so far north, it was the agility that seemed odd to me.

Ok, I think that's an issue if they're refered to as wights but don't look or act anything like previous wights. That's bad consistency I'll grant you.

But then the whole North North, Children of the Forest is really at odds with almost everything else in the books.

Nody wrote: »

As long as they look like Sandworms from Dune I'm all for it; we can have them eat up part of Danysis army as she's walking around a random desert and tell everyone to not make any vibrations...

Better than have her ****ting herself. Or have we gone past that part?

Mickeroo

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why did they all drink to ygritte though? It wasnt like she was any major player or head of a clan. She was a lookout, a foot soldier... I think they over stated her importance to be honest.

I dont think so, Mance knew her, knew she went over the wall and knew Jon was involved with her. Made sense they would drink to her.

Nody wrote: »

As long as they look like Sandworms from Dune I'm all for it; we can have them eat up part of Danysis army as she's walking around a random desert and tell everyone to not make any vibrations...

Will fit nicely into the Dorne scenes I'm sure :pac:

Nerdlingr

Blay wrote: »

She meant something to Jon and she was a Wildling.

Same with the other two: Grenn-Jon, Mag-Mance, it's just highlighting that they have both suffered losses in a futile conflict.

Sure but it was Mance who toasted her. Granted its to magnify jon's suffering but meh..ygritte..whatever like!

Witcher

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Sure but it was Mance who toasted her. Granted its to magnify jon's suffering but meh..ygritte..whatever like!

I don't think Jon was expecting a round of toasts when he arrived but when Mance said her name he did too.

I don't think the other Wildlings would have done it, but Mance has a bit more of a brain I think. They just added it in to make Mance a bit more 'good' in the eyes of the non readers.

Iwasfrozen

intellectual dosser wrote: »

They also missed a trick of Tyrion chastising Tywin just as he was about to die.

"Ah, so it turns out the great Tywin Lannister doesnt **** gold afterall" <<smirk>>

In fairness Tyrion thought this rather than saying it out loud.

Daith

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In fairness Tyrion thought this rather than saying it out loud.

I think it would be cool if some nameless Kings Landing person makes the same observation in S5 to someone.

Duckworth_Luas

Last nights show has confirmed that Robert Strong = FrankenClegane, not that there was any doubt.

Godge

I didn't like Lady Stoneheart in the books. I thought her appearance was a contrivance and added little if anything to the plot. I had thought that she was being introduced to add to future events. However, Martin is adept at taking us down pointless side-roads that never go anywhere - Quentyn Martell, various Ironborn etc. - and I am sure that the conversation has been had with Martin as to where LS is going in the books. If she doesn't have a huge relevance to future events in the books, she can be dropped by the show without a problem.

The only plot point to date that she is still needed to influence is Brienne's capture of Jaime. Depending on where that is going, there are other ways of dealing with that issue.

It has been difficult enough for the TV series to hold the narrative together without the extra dimension of a zombified Catelyn Stark. Introducing her at this stage could turn off the TV viewers and that would be of most concern to the producers. The quiet dropping of the BWB this season in the TV series would support such a scenario.

This may be an unpopular view but I don't think the TV series has lost anything to date by her non-appearance but we will see.

FunLover18

The trouble with skeletal wights is that the thing that identifies wights as wights is there blue eyes, and skeletons don't have eyes. I wasn't a fan myself, dead people with ice-blue eyes are scarier than a bunch of bones. The effects weren't great either, wights would have been cheaper

TheIrishGrover

Loved that episode.

• Glad they didn't bring back Lady whatshername. Hope she never comes back.
• Loved the Tywin/Tyrion scene. Loved the dialogue between them. Charles Dance is the biggest loss for me. Thought he was AWESOME as Tywin. Hopefully they'll big up Diana Rigg in the next season now that he's gone. Need some gravitas.
• Great to see Ciaran Hinds and Liam Cunningham in a scene together.
• And Liamo looks badass in armour walking through the smoke!
• May be controversial but I'm glad they had Jamie and Tyrion part as they did as opposed to the books.
• Surprised they left some things in: Would have bet any money that they would have had Tyrion find Shae dead and THAT would have been the straw. In the book I always assumed she was into Tyrion for the money but it seemed in the series she had genuine love for him. Last time I trust a whore. Pffffft. Was also surprised they left the Hound as was. Thought they'd have had Arya end him. (But then I don't totally believe he's dead in the books either despite what was said later)
• Surprised how much into the next books they went with Bran's story. Gonna have little enough to do with him next season(s) but I suppose there's so much to do with Tyrion, Stannis, Cercie and all the new characters that some characters are bound to get short-changed.
• Great to see Stannis' LoTR troop movements but looked like they were just charging 5 people.

Looking forward to next season but please please PLEASE no Penny and no Ironborn boll0x though.

Witcher

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Tywin. Hopefully they'll big up Diana Rigg in the next season now that he's gone. Need some gravitas.

She's gone back to Highgarden.

TheIrishGrover

Blay wrote: »

She's gone back to Highgarden.

Ah I know but if they've any sense they'll bring her back and have her behind the scenes stirring - being the one involved with Cercie's storyline. Would be a shame to not use such a popular character. Wouldn't take too much tweaking of the storyline and it would make Cercie's storyline more believable (I was never 100% convinced of her storyline in the last book. But then again, I suppose 75% of the last two books were filler to give the dragons time to grow IMHO)

December2012

I wonder will Kevan feature? I haven't heard any casting news and he did nothing in his s1 appearance

I was really disappointed, the entire Arya going to the Eyrie and then meeting Brienne is really, really dumb. And I really expected the Tyrion scenes to be way better than that, had none of the gravitas of the conversations between him and Shae and Tywin, such a waste after seeing how fantastic Dinklage was in the trial scene.

Whole episode felt rushed and sloppy.

lynski

I was on my feet when stannis arrived at the wildlings camp, just as shocking and lightening fast as i thought it was in the books, and the main actors killed it.

I got a shock when the hand came out of the snow and still jumped, even though i was half expecting it.The wights and re-animated beings make no sense at all so far, we have bodies coming back to life within a few hrs, within a few days, and now after xxx time. Is it that the growing strength of the WW is making the anything dead come back regardless of duration of death?As most of the people north of the wall burn their dead to prevent re-animation anyway there cant be too many bodies lying around, so perhaps there are not too many skeletons or bodies to come back in bad shape?

I think the NW situation with Jon and Sam is set up nicely, you can see the threads, and Mance is awesome looking so forward to seeing him and Stannis on screen together.

The Hound and Arya at the eyrie made sense to me, Lysa was nuts and paranoid, if she got a raven from lannisters, who she blames for killing her husband, she would not tell anyone about it, she would probably not hand over the hound even if she caught him and someone that 'flying' happy would have soldiers who do as they are told.

Delighted with the Brianne and Hound fight, total nod to fandom imho, dont like how it changes the story, dont like that we 'know' about zombie clegane.

Delighted Arya found a boat straight away as westeros is no place for a lone traveller.

I think they needed to show one of the children a few weeks ago they seem to have appeared out of nowhere now.

The tyrion/tywin scene was deadly, i get they way they played out the tyrion story. makes sense on screen, he had plenty if reason to go to his old chamber, he was well versed in sneaking around in the tunnels, not sure about in the show as i dont remember them using the tunnels in the show. His life is over, he wants closure, doesnt matter if he goes or not.

Disappointed no LS but needed the BWB back on show before she comes, also needed warging arya.
looking forward to next year.

Lone Stone

Just finished it there, that was a lot going on. It was rather disappointing that no cold hands made an appearance. But over all a good episode, been a while since i read the books i dont think the hound was killed by Brienne i in the book was he ? i cant remember, anyway that whole scene just felt like it was put in there for some girl power jobber jabber. but it was definitely one hell of a fight scene.

I didnt like the way the whole scene tywin and tyrion went, it seemed more rage fuelled in the book it was oddly calm anyway it was great all around i thought. Just making me want the next book more

Tipsy McSwagger

The one scene I was hoping they wouldn't change was Tywin getting killed while taking a dump and I was delighted they left it in.

bopper

Gbear wrote: »

Yeah, they didn't mention Tysha.
My point is that they certainly had the time to, just like they've been name-dropping the Iron Bank and Golden Company all season so we know what's going on when they appear.

I'm not saying they didn't had time to mention her. They had plenty of time to name drop her but it still would have been confusing for a lot of viewers. Unless they randomly had Tyrion relay the entire Tysha back story again for no reason, which personally I think would have been very odd.

Iwasfrozen

bopper wrote: »

I'm not saying they didn't had time to mention her. They had plenty of time to name drop her but it still would have been confusing for a lot of viewers. Unless they randomly had Tyrion relay the entire Tysha back story again for no reason, which personally I think would have been very odd.

They could have easily talked about Tysha instead of the beetle speech. Non-book readers would have been confused at the time but it would have been clear two episodes later. The problem with dumbing the show down is it looses it's edge.

bopper

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

What use is putting a bounty on somebody if you don't inform people of said bounty. If the Hound was suspected to be in the general area of the Riverlands then the Eyrie would be somewhere that was informed surely? It would probably be one of the few places that would receive a raven personally being one the 7 kingdoms.

The guards have been employed by Lysa for quite a long time and would surely have heard through heresay if nothing else about the Stark downfall and be aware of the name Arya Stark. Littlefinger is Arya's Uncle by marriage, just because Lysa's dead doesn't really mean much.

Considering how little respect Lysa seemed to be shown from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, the fact that it was widely known she wasn't right in the head, and her affiliation with The Starks, I think it's a bit of stretch to presume Tywin would send her a raven, ever.

The guards (who may have only been hired by Lysa for a week for all we know) I doubt could care less that someone who looks like a beggar is claiming to be the niece of the now deceased Lysa. Even if Lysa had been alive, I'm not sure why the guards would stop Arya from walking away if she chose to do so. Unless Lysa specifically sent instructions to the guards to hold anyone claiming to be a child of her dead sister that she hated (doubtful). Obviously neither Arya or The Hound would have any interest in seeing Littlefinger, and I don't see why he would be interested in seeing them either. Surely it's in his better interests for Sansa to continue believing she has no one else left.

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Following the logic of the show that's what you'd expect to happen.

I don't agree at all. I never questioned for a second that for some strange reason they wouldn't be allowed to leave the narrow path.

bopper

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They could have easily talked about Tysha instead of the beetle speech. Non-book readers would have been confused at the time but it would have been clear two episodes later. The problem with dumbing the show down is it looses it's edge.

Well as I said, unless Tyrion relays the entire Tysha back story again, a lot of people aren't going to know who she is. It would seem even odder if he relays the story to Jamie of all people, who already knows it.

Iwasfrozen

bopper wrote: »

Well as I said, unless Tyrion relays the entire Tysha back story again, a lot of people aren't going to know who she is. It would seem even odder if he relays the story to Jamie of all people, who already knows it.

Jaime already knew about the beetles too but no one thought it odd when Tyrion mentioned them.

Liam O

bopper wrote: »

Well as I said, unless Tyrion relays the entire Tysha back story again, a lot of people aren't going to know who she is. It would seem even odder if he relays the story to Jamie of all people, who already knows it.

Tyrion: "Jaime, I can't believe that whore Shae testified against me, father has done this before with Tysha, he goes to such lengths to make my life miserable. Did he really have to go as far as to have all the guardsmen rape her? And me to go last? He is inhuman."

Jaime: "Tysha was unfortunate but she was a whore and you know how father feels about whores, all father cares about is his legacy. He wanted to teach you a lesson and I could hardly stop him. I was a cocky boy who thought the world revolved around him. Father is who he is because of things like this."

Or when Oberyn was in the dungeon and they were exchanging love stories, or in Oberyn's first episode:

Oberyn: "I plan on staying in Kings Landing until I get justice from both the Mountain and your father for the death of Elia."

Tyrion: "Ha, good luck with that, did you hear the story of my first marriage? [insert Tysha story]"

This would have garnered more sympathy from Oberyn too. There was plenty of time to do it and to build up to it. It was just a pointless exclusion.

bopper

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Jaime already knew about the beetles too but no one thought it odd when Tyrion mentioned them.

It was actually Jamie that mentioned them, and Tyrion was telling him a story about a time when he was younger and Jamie wasn't around.

Liam O wrote: »

Tyrion: "Jaime, I can't believe that whore Shae testified against me, father has done this before with Tysha, he goes to such lengths to make my life miserable. Did he really have to go as far as to have all the guardsmen rape her? And me to go last? He is inhuman."

Jaime: "Tysha was unfortunate but she was a whore and you know how father feels about whores, all father cares about is his legacy. He wanted to teach you a lesson and I could hardly stop him. I was a cocky boy who thought the world revolved around him. Father is who he is because of things like this."

And I'm sure half the audience wouldn't have been asking "who the f*ck is Tysha?"

Liam O wrote: »

Or when Oberyn was in the dungeon and they were exchanging love stories, or in Oberyn's first episode:

Oberyn: "I plan on staying in Kings Landing until I get justice from both the Mountain and your father for the death of Elia."

Tyrion: "Ha, good luck with that, did you hear the story of my first marriage? [insert Tysha story]"

If it played out like that we'd be reading posts on here complaining about how incredibly forced and awkward it was that Tyrion brought up Tysha literally out of nowhere.

Liam O

bopper wrote: »

It was actually Jamie that mentioned them, and Tyrion was telling him a story about a time when he was younger and Jamie wasn't around.



And I'm sure half the audience wouldn't have been asking "who the f*ck is Tysha?"



If it played out like that we'd be reading posts on here complaining about how incredibly forced and awkward it was that Tyrion brought up Tysha literally out of nowhere.

1. The showrunners are pandering to people too much if that's the case. They've mentioned her before so planned to use her further, to then just cut it is poor planning or pandering. You wouldn't see the wire doing that but this show goes out of it's way to explain everything too much imo. Let people go back and watch, it's what you had to do, more painstakingly, as a reader if you forgot something.

2. Nothing in the scenes between Oberyn and Tyrion could feel forced, they were absolutely mesmerising and 2 brilliant actors embodying their characters to the fullest. They brought up Oberyn's trip to the Rock so why not Tysha?

bopper

Liam O wrote: »

1. The showrunners are pandering to people too much if that's the case. They've mentioned her before so planned to use her further, to then just cut it is poor planning or pandering. You wouldn't see the wire doing that but this show goes out of it's way to explain everything too much imo. Let people go back and watch, it's what you had to do, more painstakingly, as a reader if you forgot something.

2. Nothing in the scenes between Oberyn and Tyrion could feel forced, they were absolutely mesmerising and 2 brilliant actors embodying their characters to the fullest. They brought up Oberyn's trip to the Rock so why not Tysha?

Honestly, I think when they were filming that one scene that they were simply providing some character development for Tyrion, and not thinking ahead three years to Tywin's death scene. Had the show even been renewed for a second season at that stage? In fact had it even aired at all?

For all we know the writers did try and include the Tysha element and they simply couldn't make it work.

Oberyn told the story of his visit to the rock to let Tyrion know that Oberyn and his sister had met Tyrion before, and that he was aware of how long Cersei has wanted him dead. There was a point to that story. To then jump into Tyrion's story of Tysha, and then to jump back to Oberyn wanting justice for his sister, it wouldn't have flowed well at all.

Look how many people complained how awkward and forced Lysa's confession about Jon Arryn was, and sure enough that's something went over a lot of viewers heads (I had to explain the importance of it to four separate viewers). That whole backstory obviously hasn't concluded yet though so the writers obviously felt they had no choice but to include it.

They didn't have to bring Tysha into it to give Tyrion a reason to murder Tywin, and it's doubtful her character will need to be mentioned again for the rest of the series, so they must have felt they could afford to cut her. It's bound to p*ss a few book readers off, but unfortunately you can't please everyone.