Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

beno619

Fair enough lads, I wouldn't be out celebrating us spending £30M on Khedira anyway.

He's average IMO but we all see the game differently I guess.

Backstreet Moyes

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Carrick has a lot of faults, I don't rate him, but his biggest fault is his inability to receive the ball, turn and bring it forward, he's uncomfortable when put under any pressure and that's why he passes sideways and backwards.

I'll be delighted when he's gone to be honest.

Amazing we signed him because of his performances for playing higher up the field. He is well able to pass the ball forward. Fergie turned him into a player who shields the back four and keeps it simple. He was poor last season but he could do a job sitting in a three man midfield beside Herrera and Kagawa imo.

rockal

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Carrick has a lot of faults, I don't rate him, but his biggest fault is his inability to receive the ball, turn and bring it forward, he's uncomfortable when put under any pressure and that's why he passes sideways and backwards.

I'll be delighted when he's gone to be honest.

I'm in total agreement. Never understood pundits high ravings about him.

TheDoc

beno619 wrote: »

Fair enough lads, I wouldn't be out celebrating us spending £30M on Khedira anyway.

He's average IMO but we all see the game differently I guess.

Redeem yourself with a Jennifer Lawrence pic

Vic Vinegar

Marcotti saying Vidal could be happening.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/video/espn-fc-tv/86/video/1936163/the-summer-transfer-window-heats-uphttp://

Spazdarn

Nuts102 wrote: »

Amazing we signed him because of his performances for playing higher up the field. He is well able to pass the ball forward. Fergie turned him into a player who shields the back four and keeps it simple. He was poor last season but he could do a job sitting in a three man midfield beside Herrera and Kagawa imo.

He could do a job that's true, but I just feel we should be looking for players who can offer more than that...

HaveASnickers

Pro. F wrote: »

Khedira is another one of these CMs who does lots of good things but is weak at the basic possession stuff that goes unnoticed. He needs to be in a three man CM and then he does a reasonable, but much over-hyped, job. There are a lot of better CMs who could be bought and probably for less money.

The days of traditional 2 man midfields are gone.

I don't think Kroos is a player we NEED. We need someone who goes box to box, and who can tackle and match up to the toures/Matic's of this world.

Kroos is someone who would help us win games, but I don't think he'd win us games if you get me.

duffman13

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I don't really see the Evra to Juve thing having any affect on getting Vidal..

Was just about to post this. A 33 yr old left back for 2 million is hardly going to be the difference maker in getting Vidal. It may build a little relationship and both teams will already have a bit of dialogue but it's the money that's going to talk!

Billy86

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Carrick has a lot of faults, I don't rate him, but his biggest fault is his inability to receive the ball, turn and bring it forward, he's uncomfortable when put under any pressure and that's why he passes sideways and backwards.

I'll be delighted when he's gone to be honest.

Actually he just plays it safe and simple under pressure or not, and yes he is too safe a good bit of the time, dont think anyone is denying that. I dont agree about him struggling under pressure, most of the time he has had the ball for several years now it has been after breaking up counter attacks from the opposition, and he does what you should do there more often than not, which is to slow it down, allow your team regain shape and composure, and make sure not to lose the ball again as are are often outnumbered or close to it (with Evra/Rafael both going forward a lot, and not always being the best tracking back this is a bigger issue again).

It is not his job to run everywhere and single handedly control games for us, his job is to do the boring work consistently to allow the others in CM to stand out and take more chances, which Cleverley/Fellaini/etc have simply not been doing for a long while now. Though yes he could play it forward more than he does, trying to play the ball forward constantly like some seem to want, in the role he has typically had the last several seasons would be suicidal, as would launching himself all over the place trying to "get stuck in" or what have you.

Again, there is a good reason why he was the best midfielder in the league in 2012/13, right before Moyes came in and decided he would see what Carricks impression of Vidal looked like.

HaveASnickers

rockal wrote: »

I'm in total agreement. Never understood pundits high ravings about him.

Last season was a shocker for him, just like many others. He was asked to play a different role. We seen him high up the pitch putting pressure on players.

Carrick is someone to sit back and keep us ticking over.

12/13 he was incredible, like Scholes tbh. I've always been a fan of Carrick. But if I was judging him on last season alone I'd think he should be shipped out.

Spazdarn

HaveASnickers wrote: »

Last season was a shocker for him, just like many others. He was asked to play a different role. We seen him high up the pitch putting pressure on players.

Carrick is someone to sit back and keep us ticking over.

12/13 he was incredible, like Scholes tbh. I've always been a fan of Carrick. But if I was judging him on last season alone I'd think he should be shipped out.

I don't think it's coincidental that the last few years in a period where our midfield was been woeful... that one of the constants in that midfield was Carrick.

HaveASnickers

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I don't think it's coincidental that the last few years in a period where our midfield was been woeful... that one of the constants in that midfield was Carrick.

Yeah...nothing to do with the fact we had a 40 year old, a crock and a mid table standard midfielder to aid him no?

Spazdarn

HaveASnickers wrote: »

Yeah...nothing to do with the fact we had a 40 year old, a crock and a mid table standard midfielder to aid him no?

Almost all of the aforementioned played better than him... says enough I'd say

NoviGlitzko

I for one, always thought Carrick was the most overrated player at United for years. ToiletFusion summed it up perfectly saying he is useless under any sort of pressure. He panics, and passes backwards.

We could bring in a far superior player than him and it could change the way we play completely.

KombuchaMshroom

ToiletFusion wrote: »

He could do a job that's true, but I just feel we should be looking for players who can offer more than that...

This exactly. Carrick is grand, he can do certain things to a decent standard, and he is probably the best of a bad bunch in what we have had for the past few years, but he doesn't do enough for me and I think he is really holding us back at times.

In an attacking sense, he plays with absolutely no urgency, slows the play down far too much. His passing range is pretty limited, you'd never really see him playing a difficult through ball, the odd long ball over the top is successful but not often enough for how often he tries them. He never passes and moves either, any time he ever makes a forward pass that is it, he stands admiring it and never looks for the return.

Defensively he doesn't do a great deal either. Has a great positional sense for blocking off avenues and slowing opposition down at times, but that is the full extent of what he does there. Rarely makes any possession winning tackles and isn't reliable for tracking runners at all.

He offers no where near enough to be considered a defensive midfielder, he provides very little in terms of an attacking/creative force, and is good but unspectacular at the little things in the middle, and for me that is not enough for a Man United midfielder.

Probably an unpopular opinion but I for one hope Herrara is the beginning of the end for Carrick!

Danye

bangkok wrote: »

what positions might they be? he is actually the perfect player for Utd

I'd much rather see a top quality centre half and a combative midfielder being bought first.

Billy86

Nuts102 wrote: »

He can run with the ball, he can pass it forward, he can assist and he can score.

To be fair, since 2010 Khedira at club level as 9 goals and 10 assists in 144 games (.0625 and .0694 per game), while Cleverley as 7 goals and 6 assists in 99 games (.0707 and 0606 per game). Keep in mind also that playing at Madrid in La Liga offers a big advantage for Khedira here as opposed to playing at Man Utd/Wigan in the Premiership for Cleverley.

Not saying Cleverley is particularly good here, but I get the feeling some people are attributing abilities to Khedira that he doesnt really have. He is a hard working player who can cover round well and fill a role for teams who need that (much like pre illness Fletcher, who I liked a lot), but he is not some dynamic attacking midfield treat or really anything like that.

Pro. F

HaveASnickers wrote: »

The days of traditional 2 man midfields are gone.

Football doesn't work like that. There's always something that is supposed to be a thing of the past until fans happen to see a high profile team using it and then it's back to being a thing of the present.

A few years ago you would have been telling me that the days of 3 centre-backs were gone. Now they're back to being an accepted formation, just because more high profile teams have been using them.

All of the standard formations work in any given season, once you have suitable players. And there are always suitable players.

lordgoat

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I don't think it's coincidental that the last few years in a period where our midfield was been woeful... that one of the constants in that midfield was Carrick.

Go back a few years before that when we won a three league titles and got to how many CL finals who was in CM then?

People are wither very quick to forget or just don't understand the game.

Of all the midfielders we have right now, Carrick should be the last one to be replaced (barring new signings). The reason? He's better than them all. So when we have better players than him at the club i'll be ok about him leaving but will recognise just what a great purchase he was.

Billy86

Pro. F wrote: »

Khedira is another one of these CMs who does lots of good things but is weak at the basic possession stuff that goes unnoticed. He needs to be in a three man CM and then he does a reasonable, but much over-hyped, job. There are a lot of better CMs who could be bought and probably for less money.

Bingo, he is a Flamini or Fletcher, nothing more and nothing less. That is not a bad thing, but is also not what we should be looking for at this time.

MagicIRL

keane2097 wrote: »

That almost never happens!

Me talking out my hoop or admiting I'm wrong? One happens a lot more than the other! :pac:

HaveASnickers

Pro. F wrote: »

Football doesn't work like that. There's always something that is supposed to be a thing of the past until fans happen to see a high profile team using it and then it's back to being a thing of the present.

A few years ago you would have been telling me that the days of 3 centre-backs were gone. Now they're back to being an accepted formation, just because more high profile teams have been using them.

All of the standard formations work in any given season, once you have suitable players. And there are always suitable players.

Holland are using this as a back up plan, Juventus are switching and Italy will be switching now too as it doesn't work long term.

Spazdarn

lordgoat wrote: »

Go back a few years before that when we won a three league titles and got to how many CL finals who was in CM then?

People are wither very quick to forget or just don't understand the game.

Of all the midfielders we have right now, Carrick should be the last one to be replaced (barring new signings). The reason? He's better than them all. So when we have better players than him at the club i'll be ok about him leaving but will recognise just what a great purchase he was.

We had Scholes then

Pro. F

HaveASnickers wrote: »

Holland are using this as a back up plan, Juventus are switching and Italy will be switching now too as it doesn't work long term.

There are a lot more teams than Holland, Juventus and Italy who have been using 3 CBs. Edit: Also, there's no guarantee that Juve and and Italy will switch and the idea that a WC semi-finalist would have used 3 CBs (whether back-up plan or not) would have been dismissed out of hand by the majority on this forum two seasons ago.

UnitedIrishman

HaveASnickers wrote: »

Holland are using this as a back up plan, Juventus are switching and Italy will be switching now too as it doesn't work long term.

Don't think you can say it doesn't work long term, I mean they've played it all tournament without a team finding a weakness in it.

As with all formations, they're merely adaptable and transformative depending on where the ball is these days. If anything the days of rigid formations are gone.

Billy86

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Almost all of the aforementioned played better than him... says enough I'd say

OK, you have stopped making sense now.

KombuchaMshroom wrote: »

Defensively he doesn't do a great deal either. Has a great positional sense for blocking off avenues and slowing opposition down at times, but that is the full extent of what he does there. Rarely makes any possession winning tackles and isn't reliable for tracking runners at all.

Actually he tends to track runners quite well for the most part, and "possession winning tackles" are one of the most overrated attributes in the modern game for the most part. Ferdinand rarely made those tackles either, especially for a CB, yet he is possibly the best defender to ever play for Man Utd. Especially in the modern game with a lot of diving and fouls being called much easier, in dangerous positions it is usually a better idea to slow opposition attacks down, stifle them and force errors than to try and play physically and slide around the place, lunging in all over the sop.

As for people looking for someone to play the ball forward from very deep positions (which Carrick tended to take up under Ferguson, allowing Evra/Rafael to move forward more often), David Luiz is quite handy at that...

Someone mentioned it earlier, tat Carrick was good bringing the ball forward for Spurs. Thin is, we have asked him to play a much different and more conservative role for most of is time here.

Pro. F

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

I've posted this formation before but I've updated now to see how I'd fit in Di Maria. Seems the best option to fit everyone in (and Rooney in his preferred position) if the dream happened and Vidal and Di Maria were signed.

The problem with this formation for me is the lack of pace up front. I think all of the successful teams using a diamond have had at least one pacey player in the front three.

MagicIRL

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is LvG not just playing a back three because Strootman is out injured? With Strootman wasn't he a 4-3-3 man?

Spazdarn

Billy86 wrote: »

OK, you have stopped making sense now.


Actually he tends to track runners quite well for the most part, and "possession winning tackles" are one of the most overrated attributes in the modern game for the most part. Ferdinand rarely made those tackles either, especially for a CB, yet he is possibly the best defender to ever play for Man Utd. Especially in the modern game with a lot of diving and fouls being called much easier, in dangerous positions it is usually a better idea to slow opposition attacks down, stifle them and force errors than to try and play physically and slide around the place, lunging in all over the sop.

As for people looking for someone to play the ball forward from very deep positions (which Carrick tended to take up under Ferguson, allowing Evra/Rafael to move forward more often), David Luiz is quite handy at that...

Someone mentioned it earlier, tat Carrick was good bringing the ball forward for Spurs. Thin is, we have asked him to play a much different and more conservative role for most of is time here.

Your point was that Carrick was poor because the quality of the players around him.

But the 40 year old Giggs played better than him, an ill Fletcher offered more than him also. Cleverly fair enough but Carrick had one unreal season, but the others he was average.

I personally don't think a club like United should be settling for average

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Football doesn't work like that. There's always something that is supposed to be a thing of the past until fans happen to see a high profile team using it and then it's back to being a thing of the present.

A few years ago you would have been telling me that the days of 3 centre-backs were gone. Now they're back to being an accepted formation, just because more high profile teams have been using them.

All of the standard formations work in any given season, once you have suitable players. And there are always suitable players.

This is so true

Querioz convinced Fergie to move to a 3-5-2 formation so we could dominate even more games and score MORE goals. Ended up getting obliterated in the two games it was tried and ended up reverting back to 4-4-2.

4-4-2 has been simply put our identity for so long at United. Ferguson brought in a 4-5-1 then for away games in Europe, or tough domestic games that was around the time when the trend was being more compact and conceeding less, rather then score more.

A change from 4-4-2 would be a welcomed sight in a sense, just to witness something new.

I still think 4-2-3-1 has a great place in the game, and Moyes tried it a few times and it never paid off for him, but showed signs. However he stuck WAY too long with 4-4-2 with inept wingers and slow CM's that couldn't hack it.

"Most" teams are operating a three man midfield in terms of high level European competition. But that is not to say you HAVE to match them in the middle. With a three man midfield you tend to sacrifice width, and space in the fullback areas, and that can be exploited. But you do need two pretty fit and stamina heavy CM's to pull it off.

But Pro.F is spot on and we should all be wise to this now, there is always a new Flavour of the month, it was Tika Taka was dead, then it was grand, then it was dead again here in the Euros with Spain. There is more then one way to skin a cat, and if everyone played the same it would be rubbish.

I'm thankful that the horrible promoted team mantra has subsided, where teams like Stoke etc came up and played 4-5-1 and just stiffled games hoping to nick a goal, that has changed with teams coming up being more adventurous and realising you need to score goals to succeed.

I must admit though the German style really sits well with me. At its pomp its like a vintage United team viscerating through teams at pace and speed. I am not majorly a fan of the passing the ball to death across the opposition box, find it a bit boring, ala Barcalona in their pomp. While I appreciated what they were doing, it really turned me off watching La Liga in general, as they would just go through this monotonous passing feast and you'd be praying for a little spark.

If anything has been note worthy from LVG is how he can relay a new tactic to his players and have them understand it relatively quickly and succesfully. They were prodominantly 4-3-3 via qualifiers, but it looks like this 3-4-3 ( 3-5-1?) they have deployed has been tailored for the climate and environment they find themselves in and working well.

Be nice to have a manager who has a couple of options in terms of formation and can rock them out at will.