Opting out of School Prayer

brianon

Hi All,

Just looking for an opinion on this. My daughter is in 1st class (she is 7) in the local parish school. She is not baptised and will not be making her first communion next year.

My question is relating to the morning (and home time) prayer they all stand and say each day at school. I am going to see if it is ok if she no longer has to stand and say these prayers. I am not crazy asking for this am I ?

Cabaal

Your request is perfectly reasonable and legal...especially as the school accepted her into the school knowingly she had no faith so they have no excuse to deny your request

They can't force her to take part in parts of a faith she's not part of. As a parent you have a say in what she's involved in so if you don't want her taking part in prayer or religion class the must respect this....though depending on the school they may fight you and make excuses for why she can't opt ou etc.

eviltwin

brianon wrote: »

Hi All,

Just looking for an opinion on this. My daughter is in 1st class (she is 7) in the local parish school. She is not baptised and will not be making her first communion next year.

My question is relating to the morning (and home time) prayer they all stand and say each day at school. I am going to see if it is ok if she no longer has to stand and say these prayers. I am not crazy asking for this am I ?

I don't think so, she's not a Catholic after all. Its not too much hassle for the teacher either as you're not asking for her to leave the class. I think if you explain then the school should respect your position.

LostinKildare

Not crazy at all. She's not Catholic, why should she pretend to be? Sitting quietly and respectfully seems perfectly reasonable. That's what adult non-Catholics do in churches at weddings, funerals, etc.

Nick Park

Your child has a Constitutional right (Article 44.4) to attend a school that receives public funding without attending religious instruction. It would be reasonable to argue that participation in prayer falls under the heading of 'religious instruction.'

brianon

Thanks all for the replies. Very much appreciated. Going to go ahead and ask.

The Diddakoi

Never really gave it much thought before, but i'm not Catholic, and during church services that I have attrended I tend to sit/stand when others do, and just leave out the whole praying bit I'd tend to back whatever your daughter feels most comfortable with

Cabaal

brianon wrote: »

Thanks all for the replies. Very much appreciated. Going to go ahead and ask.

Be interested to know what their response is to you, keep us updated if you can

kylith

brianon wrote: »

Thanks all for the replies. Very much appreciated. Going to go ahead and ask.

Don't ask - tell. Tell them that your daughter will not be praying and is not to be expected to, as she is not Catholic.

One of this countries' problems is our tendency to ask for permission to avail of our rights.

alf66 wrote: »

Never really gave it much thought before, but i'm not Catholic, and during church services that I have attrended I tend to sit/stand when others do, and just leave out the whole praying bit I'd tend to back whatever your daughter feels most comfortable with

I'll stand and sit, but I won't kneel. I'll never bend my knee to those bastards.

Cabaal

kylith wrote: »

I'll stand and sit, but I won't kneel. I'll never bend my knee to those bastards.

I'd be the same,

Some people say its disrespectful, but they forget that respect is earned, not simply given for no reason.

kylith

Cabaal wrote: »

I'd be the same,

Some people say its disrespectful, but they forget that respect is earned, not simply given for no reason.

Very true. Personally I see standing as respectful. Kneeling is, imo, a show of subservience.

shruikan2553

kylith wrote: »

Very true. Personally I see standing as respectful. Kneeling is, imo, a show of subservience.

If a hobbit doesnt have to kneel to a king the I have to kneel to no one. Does anyone know the reason for kneeling?

endacl

alf66 wrote: »

Never really gave it much thought before, but i'm not Catholic, and during church services that I have attrended I tend to sit/stand when others do, and just leave out the whole praying bit /QUOTE]

No harm in a bit of exercise. The aul' 'catholic callisthenics'!

:pac:

PopePalpatine

kylith wrote: »

Don't ask - tell. Tell them that your daughter will not be praying and is not to be expected to, as she is not Catholic.

One of this countries' problems is our tendency to ask for permission to avail of our rights.

I'll stand and sit, but I won't kneel. I'll never bend my knee to those bastards.

Now I'm remembering that scene from Game of Thrones were Joffrey demands that Tyrion kneels before him.

Sulla Felix

kylith wrote: »

I'll stand and sit, but I won't kneel. I'll never bend my knee to those bastards.

I'm a bit more pragmatic than that. With a sore head from the night before the wedding/funeral revelry, it's usually less painful to park knees on cushion, arse on seat and rest head on hands than it is to sit upright on those torture contraptions.

kylith

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Now I'm remembering that scene from Game of Thrones were Joffrey demands that Tyrion kneels before him.

I was feeling a bit more Baylon Greyjoy than that.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I'm a bit more pragmatic than that. With a sore head from the night before the wedding/funeral revelry, it's usually less painful to park knees on cushion, arse on seat and rest head on hands than it is to sit upright on those torture contraptions.

Hmmm, that's a fair plan. They keep the seats well polished, but it's possible to wedge your feet under the knee rest in such a way that you can snooze while sitting and not slide off.

robindch

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Does anyone know the reason for kneeling?

It's a gesture of submission. Same as the hands-together gesture used when praying which I believe derives from having one's wrists bound together.

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

I'll stand and sit, but I won't kneel. I'll never bend my knee to those bastards.

Yeah, it's an act of submission and adoration.

But who do you think people are kneeling before kylith? Who are "those bastards"?

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah, it's an act of submission and adoration.

But who do you think people are kneeling before kylith? Who are "those bastards"?

The priesthood, the Catholic hierarchy, the holy fecking trinity. Bastards the whole bally lot of them.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah, it's an act of submission and adoration.

But who do you think people are kneeling before kylith? Who are "those bastards"?

I'd imagine those bastards are the Catholic Church, incase you've been missing for the last few decades the church carried out numerous crimes and then covered them up, they continue to stone wall current investigation into their crimes/cover ups.

So understandably not every one can be bothered with the organisation and it's representing. Never mind kneeling to them.

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

The priesthood, the Catholic hierarchy, the holy fecking trinity. Bastards the whole bally lot of them.

At mass one is only kneeling in reverence to God...not people.

You're dead right not to kneel if you either a) don't beleive in God or b) don't deem Him worthy of reverence.

robindch

kylith wrote: »

The priesthood, the Catholic hierarchy, the holy fecking trinity. Bastards the whole bally lot of them.

*cough*

a little chill, please

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

At mass one is only kneeling in reverence to God...not people. You're dead right not to kneel if you either a) don't beleive in God or b) don't deem Him worthy of reverence.

What about wearing a hat?

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

I'd imagine those bastards are the Catholic Church, incase you've been missing for the last few decades the church carried out numerous crimes and then covered them up, they continue to stone wall current investigation into their crimes/cover ups.

So understandably not every one can be bothered with the organisation and it's representing. Never mind kneeling to them.

Yeah, I know people don't like the RCC. But the point is, people at mass kneel in reverence and adoration to God, not the RCC or any humans.

I Heart Internet

robindch wrote: »

What about wearing a hat?

I've had debates on boards about this before.

Uncovering one's head in a sacred space is for lay men in the western, christian tradition an act of reverence and respect for God.

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

At mass one is only kneeling in reverence to God...not people.

You're dead right not to kneel if you either a) don't beleive in God or b) don't deem Him worthy of reverence.

He isn't worthy of the least bit of reverence. A being who claims to have boundless mercy and compassion who would rather help footballers score goals than help children dying of malaria isn't worth a moment of my, or anyone else's time.

robindch wrote: »

*cough*

a little chill, please

Apologies.

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

He isn't worthy of the least bit of reverence. A being who claims to have boundless mercy and compassion who would rather help footballers score goals than help children dying of malaria isn't worth a moment of my, or anyone else's time.

Like I said, you're right not to kneel so, if that's what you think of Him.

Wait.....can you deliberatly choose not to show revernce to something you believe doesn't exist? Isn't that acknowledging it's existance?

Delirium

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Like I said, you're right not to kneel so, if that's what you think of Him.

Wait.....can you deliberatly choose not to show revernce to something you believe doesn't exist? Isn't that acknowledging it's existance?

damned if you do, damned if you don't

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Like I said, you're right not to kneel so, if that's what you think of Him.

Wait.....can you deliberatly choose not to show revernce to something you believe doesn't exist? Isn't that acknowledging it's existance?

It is more than possible to show irreverence to an idea.

I Heart Internet

SW wrote: »

damned if you do, damned if you don't

Not quite....;)

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

It is more than possible to show irreverence to an idea.

But you spoke of him above as a "being" not an idea.

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

But you spoke of him above as a "being" not an idea.

The idea of a being.

Neither of which is worth any respect, imo.

I occasionally call Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister a bastard too. Does that mean I think he exists?

eviltwin

The few times I have been in church I have never knelt, never had a problem with it from anyone either. Once people know your not religious they are mostly understanding.

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Uncovering one's head in a sacred space is for lay men in the western, christian tradition an act of reverence and respect for God.

So bishops wearing their hats in church aren't acting reverently?

I Heart Internet

robindch wrote: »

So bishops wearing their hats in church aren't acting reverently?

No

Edit: To clarrify....they are acting reverently by wearing their headgear. They are not not acting reverently.

gctest50

I Heart Internet wrote: »

But you spoke of him above as a "being" not an idea.

Same as Santa ?

daveohdave

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

endacl

kylith wrote: »

I occasionally call Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister a bastard too. Does that mean I think he exists?

I hope not. GOT SPOILER!

He died.

:pac:

kylith

endacl wrote: »

I hope not.

Boy, did he ever!

Nick Park

endacl wrote: »

I hope not.
:pac:

Flipping heck, thanks for the spoiler!

I've been recording series 4 so I can sit and watch it all at once.

Cabaal

daveohdave wrote: »

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

So parents should consult their kids before baptising them and entering them into a faith also? Great, I support this fully

magicbastarder

daveohdave wrote: »

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

should she also be consulted about whether she wants to believe in santa?

daveohdave

The thread is about school prayer. She should be consulted about how she will feel about being "different" in class, or at least advised how to deal with it. She's a person. How did you like being told to do things without consultation or discussion when you were a child?

thehairyone

alf66 wrote: »

Never really gave it much thought before, but i'm not Catholic, and during church services that I have attrended I tend to sit/stand when others do, and just leave out the whole praying bit I'd tend to back whatever your daughter feels most comfortable with

Most sensible post here. let your daughter make up her own mind whether she wants to pray or not.

Zubeneschamali

daveohdave wrote: »

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

It might, that's why you need to talk to the school.

If she just announces that she's not going to join in the prayers because Jesus is dead and God, like Santa, doesn't exist, she could get some negative reactions.

If the teacher is aware that she's going to sit out any prayers and treats that as normal, there's less risk the other kids will react.

Pherekydes

daveohdave wrote: »

How did you like being told to do things without consultation or discussion when you were a child?

Hated being indoctrinated and brainwashed into the "one true" religion.

Though, at least none of us were different. Couldn't have that, now could we?

Cabaal

daveohdave wrote: »

The thread is about school prayer. She should be consulted about how she will feel about being "different" in class, or at least advised how to deal with it. She's a person. How did you like being told to do things without consultation or discussion when you were a child?

The child was never baptised, won't be doing communion etc because of this. No prayer is the logical extention of this.

I think the vast majority of Catholic parents are very guilty of telling their kids what they'll be doing, you will go to mass, you will do communion etc.

How you are trying to demonise the op is laughable

daveohdave

How am I demonising them exactly? I asked a simple question: Has she been consulted about it? If she has and she's happy, well and good; if she hasn't, she should. Is that too complicated for you to understand, or do you simply deem 7 year olds too stupid or unimportant to consult on things that affect their lives?

Stereomaniac

I believe that the child should be asked what she wants to do, before anything else is done regarding the matter. However, I am in no way passing judgment on the original poster in this.

kylith

daveohdave wrote: »

How am I demonising them exactly? I asked a simple question: Has she been consulted about it? If she has and she's happy, well and good; if she hasn't, she should. Is that too complicated for you to understand, or do you simply deem 7 year olds too stupid or unimportant to consult on things that affect their lives?

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I believe that the child should be asked what she wants to do, before anything else is done regarding the matter. However, I am in no way passing judgment on the original poster in this.

Would you both be of the opinion that all the other children in the class should be similarly polled about whether or not they wish to partake in prayers and religion classes?

daveohdave

The other children in the class aren't part of the equation. Why would you even bring them up?

It's a simple question of a parent consulting their child. I can't understand why people find this so difficult to understand, or why they need to be so aggressive about the whole thing. Is it because you think I'm a catholic trying to defend church prayer?