Protest in Dublin June 19th

Conmaicne Mara

Farmers will be protesting in Kildare Street, Dublin at 11am on Thursday June 19th. It's to be focused mainly on two issues, the discriminatory % agreement entry criteria for commonage farmers in GLAS, and the isolation and maltreatment of some hill farmers in the Twelve Bens/Maumturks in Connemara and the Owenduff/Neiphin in Mayo.

In my area there are free busses leaving Clifden at 6am that morning picking up along the way at Recess, Maam Cross, Oughterard and Moycullen, dinner will be provided on the way home.

I believe there are similar arrangements being made in Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Kerry, Cork, Waterford, and Louth. All are welcome, if anyone wishes to go and doesn't know who to contact, fire me a PM and I'll try to find info for your area.

The main issue on GLAS will be the discriminatory % agreement entry criteria for commonages, increased payment rates so small acreage farmers have access to a meaningful scheme.

The Twelve Bens etc. issue is one where the Dept cannot be allowed to get away with, where they have forcibly taken both stock and payments away from a small group of farmers. It sets a very dangerous precedent allowing the Dept to target any other group of farmers for similar treatment in the future.

GLAS in particular is being submitted to the EU at the end of this month, there's no going back after that, now is the time to have your say.

We have worn a path to local politicans in these areas, while they have done their best, they have met a brick wall. IFA hierarchy tell us they have also met a brick wall. I have been rightly critical of IFA in the past, however, they are supportive of this protest and that needs to be recognised.

We will be protesting the Minister for Agriculture Simon Coveney, and also the Minister for Arts, Heritage, and the Gaeltacht Jimmy Deenihan.

All public representatives of all levels from the areas concerned have been invited to stand with us on the day.

These issues are being held up by the politicans, now it's up to the farmers to put arses on bus seats and make your voice heard.

No use in complaining in the mart or pubs.

Capercaille

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

.The Twelve Bens etc. issue is one where the Dept cannot be allowed to get away with, where they have forcibly taken both stock and payments away from a small group of farmers. It sets a very dangerous precedent allowing the Dept to target any other group of farmers for similar treatment in the future.

What did that farmers do?

Conmaicne Mara

Capercaille wrote: »

What did that farmers do?

The financially incentivesed unregulated headage system lead to over grazing in places. Prior to compulsory destocking Governments of various shades had a number of years to sort out the issue. They sat on their hands, the EU forced the issue, compulsory destocking of 30% was forced on a huge number of hill farmers - even myself, when I had just 55 ewes on 90 hectares. Remember this was compulsory across the board, it was a crude unintelligent blunt instrument wielded clumsily.

Nothing was based on the fractional share of the commonage a farmer owned, once you had quota you could put that many sheep - who were inspected and counted every year by the Department remember - on the hill. This was all state sponsored.

After that, farmers firstly in Neiphin Owenduff then in Twelve Bens/Maumturks had two further levels of destocking imposed upon them. Some commonages were destocked 100%.

The issue here is that these farmers were forced into a scheme in which was promised to them an organised clear exit at the end of it. That exit was to be known two years before the end of the programme in November 2013.

Would you go to a bank, secure a loan to the value of four or five hundred sheep and go buy then, with the real possibility of the Department coming back at you six months or a year down the line to destock again?

This is what these farmers are facing, the Dept are telling them to go up in numbers. At the Hill Farming Forum in Tuam in 2013, Liam Fahey from the Department admitted the Departments own min/max numbers could be wrong.

If, as promised, the CFP was in place, and they knew 100% for definite what their numbers should be going forward, then there wouldn't be an issue.

As of now, seeing as they don't know those numbers they are stuck. It would be financially reckless to borrow money to buy stock that may be sold together in a glut in six months or a year again.

They are out of the compensation scheme, so no funding for loss of income. They have little stock to make a few euro on as they were taken from them. They have no clear plan for the future as promised to them by this State.

It's not unreasonable to ask for a one year rollover for these farmers in lieu of loss of income, imposed upon them by the State. As far as I am concerned there has been a breach of contract between the State and the farmers. It cannot be let go.

Conmaicne Mara

Nuacht 7pm on TG4 should have a piece on it tonight.

Reggie.

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Nuacht 7pm on TG4 should have a piece on it tonight.

Damn missed it

Conmaicne Mara

Reggie. wrote: »

Damn missed it

So did I, and I was watching it, no subtitles Ah well.

Reggie.

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

So did I, and I was watching it, no subtitles Ah well.

If I could slap ya I would

rangler1

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Farmers will be protesting in Dublin on Thursday June 19th. It's to be focused mainly on two issues, the discriminatory % agreement entry criteria for commonage farmers in GLAS, and the isolation and maltreatment of some hill farmers in the Twelve Bens/Maumturks in Connemara and the Owenduff/Neiphin in Mayo.

In my area there are free busses leaving Clifden at 6am that morning picking up along the way at Recess, Maam Cross, Oughterard and Moycullen, dinner will be provided on the way home.

I believe there are similar arrangements being made in Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Kerry, Cork, Waterford, and Louth. All are welcome, if anyone wishes to go and doesn't know who to contact, fire me a PM and I'll try to find info for your area.

The main issue on GLAS will be the discriminatory % agreement entry criteria for commonages, increased payment rates so small acreage farmers have access to a meaningful scheme.

The Twelve Bens etc. issue is one where the Dept cannot be allowed to get away with, where they have forcibly taken both stock and payments away from a small group of farmers. It sets a very dangerous precedent allowing the Dept to target any other group of farmers for similar treatment in the future.

GLAS in particular is being submitted to the EU at the end of this month, there's no going back after that, now is the time to have your say.

We have worn a path to local politicans in these areas, while they have done their best, they have met a brick wall. IFA hierarchy tell us they have also met a brick wall. I have been rightly critical of IFA in the past, however, they are supportive of this protest and that needs to be recognised.

We will be protesting the Minister for Agriculture Simon Coveney, and also the Minister for Arts, Heritage, and the Gaeltacht Jimmy Deenihan.

All public representatives of all levels from the areas concerned have been invited to stand with us on the day.

These issues are being held up by the politicans, now it's up to the farmers to put arses on bus seats and make your voice heard.

No use in complaining in the mart or pubs.

More than hill farmers should support this, there's too many bodies have powers they shouldn't have and they are using them unreasonably, it's time farmers got properly compensated if their land is designated or farming is restricted in any way.
It's no secret that I have a bad impression of the public service, but its because of ''competent'' bodies that don't behave reasonably and god knows self employed have enough to set up with, without people behaving unreasonable.
People have no reason not to go

Birdnuts

What time does this kick off in the big smoke?? Might be able to make it if I can get some hours free from the day job

Conmaicne Mara

Birdnuts wrote: »

What time does this kick off in the big smoke?? Might be able to make it if I can get some hours free from the day job

11am I believe, I'll get location later on.

Kildare Street is the location.

Damo810

Would this be related to ye?

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/failure-to-engage-on-glas-leads-to-vote-of-no-confidence-in-agriculture-minister-159040/

Conmaicne Mara

Damo810 wrote: »

Would this be related to ye?

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/failure-to-engage-on-glas-leads-to-vote-of-no-confidence-in-agriculture-minister-159040/

It absolutely would.

Conmaicne Mara

http://www.agriland.ie/news/glas-scheme-discriminates-commonage-farmers/

RoscommonTom

Will there be the free sandwiches, these things are pure rubbish normally, fellas use it for a day out in dublin

Conmaicne Mara

RoscommonTom wrote: »

Will there be the free sandwiches, these things are pure rubbish normally, fellas use it for a day out in dublin

'the **** do I want to be in Dublin for, I hate the place. I'm going because my income will be affected if I don't.

Conmaicne Mara

Damo810 wrote: »

Would this be related to ye?

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/failure-to-engage-on-glas-leads-to-vote-of-no-confidence-in-agriculture-minister-159040/

Strange thing but I don't see any mention of it on the IFA website, I've emailed them inquiring as to why. Hopefully it will be up on it shortly. For the main farming lobby to declare no confidence in the Minister for Agriculture is big news I would have thought.

J.O. Farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

'the **** do I want to be in Dublin for, I hate the place. I'm going because my income will be affected if I don't.

I see you share a similar opinion to me on Dublin.
I always think of the Father Ted line about never ever going to the mainland unless it's completely unavoidable.

Conmaicne Mara

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I see you share a similar opinion to me on Dublin.
I always think of the Father Ted line about never ever going to the mainland unless it's completely unavoidable.

Yeah I don't like being in cities in general, not enough wide open space for me Am a pure country boy home bird me!

rangler1

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Yeah I don't like being in cities in general, not enough wide open space for me Am a pure country boy home bird me!

Was going to drive up on Thursday, had two phone calls today telling me to get a bus......some hope, we only had about a dozen at the last beef protest.
I wonder did the cmms get to handle all the calf registrations that came that day

Conmaicne Mara

rangler1 wrote: »

Was going to drive up on Thursday, had two phone calls today telling me to get a bus......some hope, we only had about a dozen at the last beef protest.
I wonder did the cmms get to handle all the calf registrations that came that day

Sure the more the merrier! I can very safely say there'll be way more than a dozen on Thursday. Spent part of yesterday compiling a list of people I hadn't seen at the mart and this afternoon driving around walking onto land, into houses and sheds bothering them.

None of them will be able say they didn't know about it.

rangler1

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Sure the more the merrier! I can very safely say there'll be way more than a dozen on Thursday. Spent part of yesterday compiling a list of people I hadn't seen at the mart and this afternoon driving around walking onto land, into houses and sheds bothering them.

None of them will be able say they didn't know about it.

This protest might get farmers going, the beef ones were never going to change the European markets, this one is more local, directed at the government and various departments, a lot of apathy out there in govt though.

Conmaicne Mara

rangler1 wrote: »

This protest might get farmers going, the beef ones were never going to change the European markets, this one is more local, directed at the government and various departments, a lot of apathy out there in govt though.

I only wish it was apathy. There's deliberate policies against low income farmers from this Government. The farmers I mentioned above 12 Bens etc. Coveney & Deenihan wouldn't even do them the decency of giving a meeting with their representatives. The 80%&50% rules are miserly and discriminatory, one rule of many to save money by denying entry to "some" farmers. €150 h/a was reduced to €75 in GLAS on a restricted H/A capped limit by Coveney, that punishes low hectare designated land farmers. The 140kg HA organic N rule absolutely rules out very low income, low acreage, non commonage cattle farmers here.

Coveney is very effectively eradicating the FG vote in many of these areas.

Worst possible result from my POV is that he's not reshuffled and left where he is.

rangler1

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I only wish it was apathy. There's deliberate policies against low income farmers from this Government. The farmers I mentioned above 12 Bens etc. Coveney & Deenihan wouldn't even do them the decency of giving a meeting with their representatives. The 80%&50% rules are miserly and discriminatory, one rule of many to save money by denying entry to "some" farmers. €150 h/a was reduced to €75 in GLAS on a restricted H/A capped limit by Coveney, that punishes low hectare designated land farmers. The 140kg HA organic N rule absolutely rules out very low income, low acreage, non commonage cattle farmers here.

Coveney is very effectively eradicating the FG vote in many of these areas.

Worst possible result from my POV is that he's not reshuffled and left where he is.

The 140kg minimum will disqualify a lot of farmers from GLAS if it's enforced......isn't that a minimum stocking rate of 2cows/ha

Conmaicne Mara

rangler1 wrote: »

The 140kg minimum will disqualify a lot of farmers from GLAS if it's enforced......isn't that a minimum stocking rate of 2cows/ha

3 I heard but I wouldn't be well up on that side of things, either way, probably more than farmers on land in this area would be stocked due to the nature of it and weather.

rangler1

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

3 I heard but I wouldn't be well up on that side of things, either way, probably more than farmers on land in this area would be stocked due to the nature of it and weather.

Just looked it up. a suckler cow is 65kg N so 2/ha wouldn't be enough. I'd have to have 80 additional ewes to comply

Capercaille

Grants for the Corncrake grant scheme have been cut:mad:.

Qualitymark

What's happened with these Connemara hill farmers?

Dub here, so may I ask a question? Are there two classes in Irish farming: big farmers with ranches, as they used to call them in the 1900s, and small farmers supporting a family? And are the ministers for agriculture normally drawn from the first class?

RobertKK

Qualitymark wrote: »

What's happened with these Connemara hill farmers?

Dub here, so may I ask a question? Are there two classes in Irish farming: big farmers with ranches, as they used to call them in the 1900s, and small farmers supporting a family? And are the ministers for agriculture normally drawn from the first class?

Simon Coveney says he got a good deal with the CAP - it protects those on higher payments, so those on smaller payments can stay on smaller payments - which is what the top people in the IFA who have high payments wanted.
So you can make up your mind from that.

IFA don't really care about the farmers who farm in harsher conditions from maybe poorer land, higher land that gives a disadvantage, the main thing for them was the most productive as they called them were on higher payments and needed the money - which implied they were the most inefficient farmers...the irony...I believe this led to the low turnout for the IFA presidential elections.

Qualitymark

RobertKK wrote: »

Simon Coveney says he got a good deal with the CAP - it protects those on higher payments, so those on smaller payments can stay on smaller payments - which is what the top people in the IFA who have high payments wanted.
So you can make up your mind from that.

IFA don't really care about the farmers who farm in harsher conditions from maybe poorer land, higher land that gives a disadvantage, the main thing for them was the most productive as they called them were on higher payments and needed the money - which implied they were the most inefficient farmers...the irony...I believe this led to the low turnout for the IFA presidential elections.

Perhaps these farmers need to form a different union, one that would represent their interests, if the IFA won't?

RobertKK

Qualitymark wrote: »

Perhaps these farmers need to form a different union, one that would represent their interests, if the IFA won't?

It will be interesting to see how this protest goes, if the IFA will get the numbers out in force.
The IFA are in trouble if they continue the route they have been on.

Conmaicne Mara

Qualitymark wrote: »

What's happened with these Connemara hill farmers?

It's a very complicated long answer which requires some historical background to appreciate todays problem fully, I'm not the best person explaining it as while I live and farm in Connemara I'm not directly affected as I don't farm in the Twelve Bens or Maumturks. However I'll have a stab at it.

Most hills, mountains, bogs etc are "commonages" where a number of people can graze their animals. There would be fractional shares like 1/5th or 1/23rd depending on how many share holders are on the commonage.

Before my time in farming a payment per head of sheep was brought in, "headage" as it's generally referred to. The problem was, there was no regulation of this scheme. The more sheep you had, the more you got paid. The Department of Agriculture used to send out inspectors each year for the "count", to make sure you had the number of sheep you said you had.

The Department of Agriculture, Teagasc - the farming advisory body, the EU and other relevant shareholders in farming fully knew about this scheme, so it was all official and had the blessing of the State.

Some farmers quite simply had too many sheep, they were incentivised to do so. They were told more sheep was a good thing, as it brought more money into an otherwise relatively poor area.

Naturally any piece of land, be that a football pitch or a mountain range can only support so many grazing animals. Some areas became "over grazed" and by the late 90's - after a period of complete inaction by various governments - this lead to "destocking".

There was a lazy 30% destocking all across the board, meaning everyone had to get rid of 30% of their flock. Regardless of whether you had 30 sheep or 3,000. This neither took account of your commonage share, nor which farmer was doing the damage and which one wasn't. We all got kicked with the same boot.

Now, further to that, some farmers in the Twelve Bens and Maumturks mountains in Connemara and Owenduff and Neiphin in Mayo were further destocked on two other occasions. Some being destocked 100%. This wasn't voluntary, it was forced.

Those farmers were put into a programme of compensation for "loss of income" which ran until November 2013. By 2011 the State had promised these farmers they would have a clear exit plan from this programme. A Commonage Framework Plan which would tell them their correct sheep numbers going forward.

That never happened.

Some farmers had to, in an NPWS programme, bring their remaining sheep down off the hills for five months over Winter. A time traditionally the sheep would be on the hills and give the fenced land a rest for lambing time in Spring. At the tail end of that programme, the Department of Arts, Heritage, and the Gaeltacht walked away from the agreement leaving farmers having fed sheep for 5 months and being owed approx €1,700 each. We've worked for the best part of the last two years and the solution to that is only being put in place before the election.

A meeting had been promised between the Ministers for Agriculture Simon Coveney and the Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Jimmy Deenihan in January on the above issue. They hadn't the decency to meet representatives of the farmers concerned. They passed the buck from one to the other continuously denying responsibility or budget.

So today, the farmers are without stock to make a living from, they are without their loss if income compensation (we all hate that word) programme, and they do not know what their correct flock numbers are supposed to be going forward so they are stuck.

To put the tin hat on all of that, the Department of Agriculture are telling these farmers, as a solution to the problem, to go back up in numbers again - 4-5-600 sheep each.

All alright with that you might think? No, not quite.

To do that, most of the farmers I know would have to secure a bank loan for that amount of ewes. Not to mention the impossibility of settling "stranger" ewes on unfenced commonages - they scatter to the four winds as they don't know they're supposed to stay in a particular area not being born into it.

The real problem is that the new Commonage Framework Plan negotiations are supposedly to start this year. The result of those negotiations could well tell the farmer who has bought sheep to destock again! As with any commodity sold in a glut together, it's not hard to imagine what those sheep would be worth then, SFA, with a loan still to pay off.

Now, why am I bothering with these guys? I'm not affected by the above after all (besides the 30% first destocking).

One very good reason. If this is let stand, it will set a precedent for future Governments to isolate, maltreat, and financially ruin any group of farmers anywhere in this state. For all farmers sake that cannot be allowed to happen.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Dub here, so may I ask a question? Are there two classes in Irish farming: big farmers with ranches, as they used to call them in the 1900s, and small farmers supporting a family? And are the ministers for agriculture normally drawn from the first class?

Mr Coveney is only interested in what he and Mr Kenny call the "productive" farmer. Those that feed the agri-food industry with raw materials. Despite claims to the contrary neither of those two guys give a flying fcuk about any farmer, once they keep producing and feed the factories. They don't care a damn whether that guy is making money or starving. Totally unrelated to Mr Coveneys brother being a substantial name in the agri-food industry I'm sure.

The big farmer small farmer issue is a landmine I refuse to step on. I'll describe it another way.

I farm 90 hectares of land in Connemara. That land is mostly commonage based on hills and bogland. Apart from my seven hectares of fenced land, the other 83 hectares are all restricted as they are SAC's and NHA's. If you click on the following link for blanket bogs you will see what shareholders on designated commonages aren't allowed to do http://www.npws.ie/farmerslandowners/notifiableactions/notifiableactionsforlistedhabitatsandspecies/

Basically we're not allowed to improve it in any way whatsoever, we're only allowed to graze it at the level the State says we can. In my case the State is completely wrong, as they say I can graze a maximum of 40 blackface ewes on my combined 90 hectares. However I have been pursuing them on this matter and no one will take responsibility for assigning me a correct number. My belief is my correct number is closer to 180 sheep. Just to clarify, headage isn't paid any longer so I am looking to make money from the progeny of these ewes not through a scheme.

So, I am not allowed to improve 83 of the 90 hectares of my land, I am not allowed to expand my flock beyond 40 hill ewes. Due to the nature of my land I have only two agricultural sectors open to me, hill sheep, or suckler cattle. Neither are in a good place.

Take another farmer, who farms good land, with no restrictions. They have the option in many cases to try intensive lowland sheep, dairying, beef finishing, suckling, tillage, veg. That's the nature of their land, it gives them options, and fair play to them. They can also improve their land without the same restrictions I have.

Now, where I have a problem is here. The EU recognises that the designated 83 hectares of land I own as commonage is worth a €150 per hectare payment. Why? Because from that land is produced "public goods". Clean water, habitats, a pristine environment, etc. Basically managing the land.

How much do I receive on those 83 hectares per hectare? €0. I have no objection to being an "Environmental Farmer", who is managing the land for environmental benefit, but I won't have my land effectively taken off me and told I must do so for €0 per hectare. I have rent and bills to pay like the rest of the people on here.

The Department of Agriculture have told us there is nothing stopping them paying that €150 per hectare to farmers like me. That it is a political decision not to.

So, there are many, many types of farmers. Big, small, rich, poor, working a second job or not, on the pension or not, big SFP or small SFP, different sectors and different land types and weather conditions.

In short, it's bloody complicated.

Currently we have a Minister for Agriculture who doesn't regard me as a farmer at all. I am someone to be wiped out.

I intend to disagree with him on that a little.