Helping Opponent Search

Wombatman

Guy at work telling me he played in a match play against a guy who wouldn't help him search for his ball.

Can this be true? Serious breach of etiquette surely?

Macker1

Not very sporting but then again maybe the circumstances involved led to such a situation. I know if I was playing a match I would certainly assist with a quick search for a ball.

That said if my opponent had been less than sporting during the match at an earlier point I would maybe have a different approach.

dan_ep82

More info needed,

How long was he looking for the ball?

Where did the ball go ? (into very tall rough etc)

To be honest, I wouldn't ask anyone to help me look for my ball. I wouldn't be surprised if the other player decided to help but if he didn't, well.. he didn't hit it out of play, I did.

GreeBo

How about looking for his ball when he doesn't want it found...

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

How about looking for his ball when he doesn't want it found...

Oooh now there's a good one. I guess I wouldn't if he didn't want to. Of course he could save himself the bother and just hit his next without calling it provisional.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Oooh now there's a good one. I guess I wouldn't if he didn't want to. Of course he could save himself the bother and just hit his next without calling it provisional.

Not if it's your shot...or the first one might be ok, even if it's not ok, no guarantee the second week be any better before you hit it!

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Not if it's your shot...or the first one might be ok, even if it's not ok, no guarantee the second week be any better before you hit it!

Order of shots is surely irrelevant though for two reasons:
1) You are hardly going to go ahead of him looking for the ball when he is playing another. Recipe for a dangerous situation
2) Even if you find it before he hits his next he can just deem it unplayable and take the same shot he was going to before you found it

Here's a question (not matchplay related)....guy hits first into dodgy area. Hits provisional. We get to place first should be. No sign. Just as we are giving up (guy says he probably doesn't want to find it given the look of the area) one lad sees a ball. Asks player if he wants to find it. Player says no. Guy who spotted ball does not go over to identify it so player hits second ball which is now ball in play. Guy who spotted ball picks up ball - it was his playing partners. Return it to him after hole is finished. Any issue ?

thegolfnut

I have played with golfers in the past that wont help search for my ball so I then do the same when they lose a ball. Simple.

Norfolk Enchants_

thegolfnut wrote: »

I have played with golfers in the past that wont help search for my ball so I then do the same when they lose a ball. Simple.

No not simple, just because they don't know the correct etiquette or are just being dicks, doesn't mean you have to be too.
There's no excuse ever for not helping to search for an opponents ball, even when he is been a complete and utter dick.

thegolfnut

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

No not simple, just because they don't know the correct etiquette or are just being dicks, doesn't mean you have to be too.
There's no excuse ever for not helping to search for an opponents ball, even when he is been a complete and utter dick.

Sorry but I would never help or support a Dick on the course or else he will never know that he is a dick...!!!

Russman

thegolfnut wrote: »

Sorry but I would never help or support a Dick on the course or else he will never know that he is a dick...!!!

But by doing exactly what he is doing, he might think its the norm to not help and be a d1ck, as you say possibly without realising he's a d1ck.
By searching for his ball, you'd be showing him the proper way to behave, no ?

I do find it hard to believe that anyone who doesn't help an opponent search for a ball doesn't realise what they're doing though. If winning a match means that much to them, let them at it, I'm not going to be a d1ck just because they are.

Norfolk Enchants_

thegolfnut wrote: »

Sorry but I would never help or support a Dick on the course or else he will never know that he is a dick...!!!

So you'd prefer to become a dick instead?
Perhaps golf isn't for you then.

charlieIRL

right enough of the dick chat.

In my first ever matchplay event my opponent helped me find every single wayward shot!!!

ib_sanf

It's an interesting question. Especially when you're playing match play in a club event and there's just the two of you. Easier when there are playing partners.

I think the very,very least an opponent should do is spot your ball as you hit it and give you their best opinion on what line it took - where it entered the rough etc.

Then maybe give you a better line as you get closer to the area where the ball is, and maybe have a quick, and genuine search with them in the area.

That's what I'd do, at a minimum, and that's what I think is sporting and good etiquette.

That said - there are plenty of golfers who do well in golf because they are conveniently selfish. Even friendly playing partners can be oblivious and lacking in this part of etiquette.

Really easy for them to say - ohh I didn't see there that went.
It's not the way I'd want to win a match however.

I think it's another question if you have an opponent who is spraying the ball everywhere into deep rough shot after shot then taking close to 5 mins each time to search for the ball.
I'd spot the ball for him and give him a line to it - not your opponents obligation to keep searching for your ball shot after shot in that scenario though IMO.

mike12

I played a match in the European. We found all the balls he hit into the rough but he never managed to find one of mine. I'm pretty sure 2 of my balls i found he had walked pretty much over them and both were sitting up. beat him which i felt was justice in the end but was tempted to not bother looking for his ball on the 17th.

Deep Thought

Was playing in a match play, one up on the 18th.

Opponent put his into the rough on the right...

Did I help him look...one up on 18, afraid not

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Order of shots is surely irrelevant though for two reasons:
1) You are hardly going to go ahead of him looking for the ball when he is playing another. Recipe for a dangerous situation
2) Even if you find it before he hits his next he can just deem it unplayable and take the same shot he was going to before you found it

EEK So much wrong with your 2)!!!
If he hits another then he has to declare it as a provisional or not.
So you don't need to run ahead of him to look for it.
If he finds the first then the provisional is null and void, irregardless of its playability; you cant declare the original unplayable and then continue with the provo, you drop or replay the original shot.
If the second ball wasnt a provisional then there is no point in looking for it.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Here's a question (not matchplay related)....guy hits first into dodgy area. Hits provisional. We get to place first should be. No sign. Just as we are giving up (guy says he probably doesn't want to find it given the look of the area) one lad sees a ball. Asks player if he wants to find it. Player says no. Guy who spotted ball does not go over to identify it so player hits second ball which is now ball in play. Guy who spotted ball picks up ball - it was his playing partners. Return it to him after hole is finished. Any issue ?

No problem with above. The player doesnt have to look for their ball.

Dbu

Have always helped an opponent find his ball
I have never in my lifetime came across someone that didnt help me look for a stray ball
Its just good manners
maybe we are just nice people here in Cork :-)

byronbay2

Deep Thought wrote: »

Was playing in a match play, one up on the 18th.

Opponent put his into the rough on the right...

Did I help him look...one up on 18, afraid not

I admire your honesty but you're not much of a sportsman - golf is supposed to be a game for gentlemen!

SnowDrifts

Deep Thought wrote: »

Was playing in a match play, one up on the 18th.

Opponent put his into the rough on the right...

Did I help him look...one up on 18, afraid not

That is kinda sad. Would you not prefer to win a match by playing good shots rather than hoping and not helping an opponent look for a ball. Very poor etiquette.

Chrispb

byronbay2 wrote: »

I admire your honesty but you're not much of a sportsman - golf is supposed to be a game for gentlemen!

Have to agree , golf is a game of integrity and honesty, it's one of the only self regulated sports . While your not breaking any rules it's at the very least poor etiquette . Would be a hollow win for me if I won by that mentality

But as I said your not breaking any rules so that's an individual choice to make , different strokes for different folks .

slave1

GreeBo wrote: »

...
If he finds the first then the provisional is null and void, irregardless of its playability; you cant declare the original unplayable and then continue with the provo, you drop or replay the original shot...

Bang on, has to be one of the most misunderstood or wrongly applied rule I see

EDIT only drop if in hazard though...

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

EEK So much wrong with your 2)!!!
If he hits another then he has to declare it as a provisional or not.
So you don't need to run ahead of him to look for it.
If he finds the first then the provisional is null and void, irregardless of its playability; you cant declare the original unplayable and then continue with the provo, you drop or replay the original shot.
If the second ball wasnt a provisional then there is no point in looking for it

I was dealing with the case where you said your opponent could look for a ball you don't want found. And I said you could just play a second ball and not call it provisional. And then you said but it might not be your shot. What I was trying to say was I don't understand how order of play is relevant.

Anyway my understanding is exactly as you outline in comments above. I think we got crossed wires.

alxmorgan

slave1 wrote: »

Bang on, has to be one of the most misunderstood or wrongly applied rule I see

EDIT only drop if in hazard though...

You can take a drop even if not in hazard in unplayable case. Directly in line with pin as far back as you like or two club lengths not nearer the hole.

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules/Ball-Unplayable.aspx

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

I was dealing with the case where you said your opponent could look for a ball you don't want found. And I said you could just play a second ball and not call it provisional. And then you said but it might not be your shot. What I was trying to say was I don't understand how order of play is relevant.

Anyway my understanding is exactly as you outline in comments above. I think we got crossed wires.

Order of play is still important, you cannot play out of turn in a match (opponent can force you to replay the shot)
So you can indeed look for your opponents ball, as long as its not their turn to play.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Order of play is still important, you cannot play out of turn in a match (opponent can force you to replay the shot)
So you can indeed look for your opponents ball, as long as its not their turn to play.

Agreed. But again I don't see the relevance. Say you find it how does it change anything ?

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Agreed. But again I don't see the relevance. Say you find it how does it change anything ?

If you find it then he has to play it (or at least abandon the provisional)?

/edit

Say its a par 3,
First ball goes behind trees, position unknown,
Player calls provo,
Hits provo to 1 inch and makes no effort to look for first ball.
You are entitled to go and look for his first ball for 5 minutes.
If your ball was 1/2inch away then the opponent can hole his putt, effectively ending your search. As long as its your turn to play you can spend the full 5 mins.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

If you find it then he has to play it (or at least abandon the provisional)?

Ah ok so the advantage is that if he called a provisional and hit it well then finding his ball in a bad situation makes him either play it or take an unplayable. And if he chooses to replay shot then he might not hit it as well as the provisional even though both would still be 3 off the tee (assuming tee shot).

I was thinking of a scenario where he hits it into wilderness. You hit. Then he hits again without calling provisional. But as you say in that case you are hardly going to be looking for it in between his shots as you would not have walked forward to begin with.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

If you find it then he has to play it (or at least abandon the provisional)?

/edit

Say its a par 3,
First ball goes behind trees, position unknown,
Player calls provo,
Hits provo to 1 inch and makes no effort to look for first ball.
You are entitled to go and look for his first ball for 5 minutes.
If your ball was 1/2inch away then the opponent can hole his putt, effectively ending your search. As long as its your turn to play you can spend the full 5 mins.

Interesting one. Would you though ?

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Ah ok so the advantage is that if he called a provisional and hit it well then finding his ball in a bad situation makes him either play it or take an unplayable. And if he chooses to replay shot then he might not hit it as well as the provisional even though both would still be 3 off the tee (assuming tee shot).

I was thinking of a scenario where he hits it into wilderness. You hit. Then he hits again without calling provisional. But as you say in that case you are hardly going to be looking for it in between his shots as you would not have walked forward to begin with.

If he doesnt declare it a provisional there is no benefit to either of you looking for it (well other than the fact he might get his ball back)

alxmorgan wrote: »

Interesting one. Would you though ?

Probably not, unless the gamesmanship had already started.
It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Probably not, unless the gamesmanship had already started.
It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...

Can't imagine there was a shared cup of tea/pint in the bar afterwards then

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

If he doesnt declare it a provisional there is no benefit to either of you looking for it (well other than the fact he might get his ball back)



Probably not, unless the gamesmanship had already started.
It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...

I'd have been cursing myself walking off the tee....
"why do I ALWAYS hit it out there... twas only last week when I stuck 2 balls in there"

Joking of course.

Russman

PARlance wrote: »

I'd have been cursing myself walking off the tee....
"why do I ALWAYS hit it out there... twas only last week when I stuck 2 balls that I marked exactly the same as today's one in there"

Joking of course.

:D

Dbu

Probably not, unless the gamesmanship had already started.
It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...[/QUOTE]


Declare it unplayable?

Seve OB

What if you were playing in the club championship tournament final and the match was halved at the end of 17 holes. You had the honour and hit your ball a modest 250 yards to the middle of the fairway, leaving a simple six iron to the pin. Your opponent then hits his ball, lofting it deep into the woods to the right of the fairway.

Being the golfing gentleman that you are, you help your opponent look for his ball. Just before the permitted five minute search period ends, your opponent
says: "Go ahead and hit your second shot and if I don't find it in time, I'll concede the match."

You hit your ball, landing it on the green, stopping about 10 feet from the pin. About the time your ball comes to rest, you hear your opponent exclaim from deep in the woods: "I found it!" The second sound you hear is a click, the sound of a club striking a ball and the ball comes sailing out of the woods and lands on the green, stopping no more than six inches from the hole.

Now here is the ethical dilemma:

Do you pull the cheating bastard's ball out of your pocket and confront him with it or do you keep your mouth shut?

slave1

alxmorgan wrote: »

You can take a drop even if not in hazard in unplayable case. Directly in line with pin as far back as you like or two club lengths not nearer the hole.

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules/Ball-Unplayable.aspx

Oh agreed, was linking 'drop' with not finding the first ball and just dropping one and carrying on, brainfart as I read your/greebo's post to quickly and failed to notice you mention first ball found...

whatstherush

GreeBo wrote: »

If he finds the first then the provisional is null and void, irregardless of its playability; you cant declare the original unplayable and then continue with the provo, you drop or replay the original shot.
.

I had case where my first ball landed within a marked water hazard, but it looked like it was in tall grass just on edge, I then played a provo. I then found ball in long grass still within hazard and managed to play it out. Could I have played my provo in this case as it was within hazard even though I found other?

GreeBo

Dbu wrote: »

Probably not, unless the gamesmanship had already started.
It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...

Declare it unplayable?[/QUOTE]

Then you are back to the tee...

Once you find the original the provisional is non existent in the rules of golf.

GreeBo

whatstherush wrote: »

I had case where my first ball landed within a marked water hazard, but it looked like it was in tall grass just on edge, I then played a provo. I then found ball in long grass still within hazard and managed to play it out. Could I have played my provo in this case as it was within hazard even though I found other?

Can't play a Provo for a ball in a hazard, I.e. behind the markers, second ball is now ball in play.

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

Then you are back to the tee...

Once you find the original the provisional is non existent in the rules of golf.

I presume that's exactly what Dbu meant... that instead of having no shot with the found 1st ball - you still could have went back to the tee and played another or, if possible, drop within 2/go back in line with flag.

GreeBo

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I presume that's exactly what Dbu meant... that instead of having no shot with the found 1st ball - you still could have went back to the tee and played another or, if possible, drop within 2/go back in line with flag.

Possibly...but then I don't see the point of the comment...?
Thread is about opponents looking for each other's balls, especially when the provisional is in great position.

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

Possibly...but then I don't see the point of the comment...?
Thread is about opponents looking for each other's balls, especially when the provisional is in great position.

I guess he just read your post below which sort of reads as if it was game over once they found your original when indeed an unplayable lie was an option to take. (which I presume was the option you took)

GreeBo wrote: »

It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...

whatstherush

GreeBo wrote: »

Can't play a Provo for a ball in a hazard, I.e. behind the markers, second ball is now ball in play.

So by playing first, should I have been penalised or even by declaring my second shot a provo? Also in case like this that it's not clear cut that ball is in hazard, the provo is no good as it's either your third shot off tee or hope you find first?

GreeBo

whatstherush wrote: »

So by playing first, should I have been penalised or even by declaring my second shot a provo? Also in case like this that it's not clear cut that ball is in hazard, the provo is no good as it's either your third shot off tee or hope you find first?

You can only play a provo if you think it may be lost outside a hazard.
If its clearly going to be in the hazard or fine (ie not lost outrside the hazard)

It doesnt have to be clearly in the hazard, remember that you dont have to find it in the hazard. But if you dont have any reason to believe it would be lost outside of the hazard, you cant play a provisional.

A provo is only for a ball that may be lost outside of a hazard.

Its a bit of a messy confusing rule tbh.

ForeRight

I played in my club championship matchplay today and actually found my partners ball 3 times when he went way off line.

He was looking in the wrong place, I could tell as I knew where his ball entered the trouble. I went over and found his ball for him.

Id find it a bit sad standing there and not helping him out no matter what way the match was going.

Anatom

I would always help my opponent search for his ball. Can't understand why you wouldn't to be honest...

Tiger Mcilroy

Anatom wrote: »

I would always help my opponent search for his ball. Can't understand why you wouldn't to be honest...

Yep its the decent thing to do.

Was playing the 18th of an all square singles match last year and my opponent hits a second shot through the back the green with OOB not far away..he was in the rough and i found his ball after a minute or two..he gets up and down for par and takes the match.

Sucks but he was looking in the wrong spot and i could have left him at it.

GreeBo

Winning at all costs has a cost imo.

Play the game for what it is, a game.
If a child of mine acted like that in a match I'd clip them around the ear.

Anatom

^^ Exactly.

You have to be able to live with yourself as well, and making excuses about "well, he acted like a prat, so it's OK for me to do the same" just don't wash with me.

Wichita Lineman

I'd always help to look for a lost ball. What goes around comes around.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Winning at all costs has a cost imo.

Play the game for what it is, a game.
If a child of mine acted like that in a match I'd clip them around the ear.

And a two week ban no doubt

I've only encountered one guy that didn't help a search. It was on the first hole and only 10 mins previously, he had asked us could he join us as his partners had let him down....
He stood at his ball 20 yards away as we searched.

I had asked him on the first tee if he had checked with the Pro Shop to be sure that his partners weren't coming. Of course was the response.

By the time we were on the first green the ranger was out to inform him that his partners were at the first tee waiting on him. He hadn't checked at all. The lads were on the putting green for 20 mins previous.

We were kinda counting our blessings on walk to the second tee as he waited behind.