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Helping Opponent Search

  • 09-06-2014 10:17PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,349 ✭✭✭


    Guy at work telling me he played in a match play against a guy who wouldn't help him search for his ball.

    Can this be true? Serious breach of etiquette surely?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭Macker1


    Not very sporting but then again maybe the circumstances involved led to such a situation. I know if I was playing a match I would certainly assist with a quick search for a ball.

    That said if my opponent had been less than sporting during the match at an earlier point I would maybe have a different approach.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭dan_ep82


    More info needed,

    How long was he looking for the ball?

    Where did the ball go ? (into very tall rough etc)

    To be honest, I wouldn't ask anyone to help me look for my ball. I wouldn't be surprised if the other player decided to help but if he didn't, well.. he didn't hit it out of play, I did.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    How about looking for his ball when he doesn't want it found...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    How about looking for his ball when he doesn't want it found...

    Oooh now there's a good one. I guess I wouldn't if he didn't want to. Of course he could save himself the bother and just hit his next without calling it provisional.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Oooh now there's a good one. I guess I wouldn't if he didn't want to. Of course he could save himself the bother and just hit his next without calling it provisional.

    Not if it's your shot...or the first one might be ok, even if it's not ok, no guarantee the second week be any better before you hit it!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Not if it's your shot...or the first one might be ok, even if it's not ok, no guarantee the second week be any better before you hit it!

    Order of shots is surely irrelevant though for two reasons:
    1) You are hardly going to go ahead of him looking for the ball when he is playing another. Recipe for a dangerous situation
    2) Even if you find it before he hits his next he can just deem it unplayable and take the same shot he was going to before you found it

    Here's a question (not matchplay related)....guy hits first into dodgy area. Hits provisional. We get to place first should be. No sign. Just as we are giving up (guy says he probably doesn't want to find it given the look of the area) one lad sees a ball. Asks player if he wants to find it. Player says no. Guy who spotted ball does not go over to identify it so player hits second ball which is now ball in play. Guy who spotted ball picks up ball - it was his playing partners. Return it to him after hole is finished. Any issue ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 thegolfnut


    I have played with golfers in the past that wont help search for my ball so I then do the same when they lose a ball. Simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Norfolk Enchants_


    thegolfnut wrote: »
    I have played with golfers in the past that wont help search for my ball so I then do the same when they lose a ball. Simple.
    No not simple, just because they don't know the correct etiquette or are just being dicks, doesn't mean you have to be too.
    There's no excuse ever for not helping to search for an opponents ball, even when he is been a complete and utter dick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 thegolfnut


    No not simple, just because they don't know the correct etiquette or are just being dicks, doesn't mean you have to be too.
    There's no excuse ever for not helping to search for an opponents ball, even when he is been a complete and utter dick.

    Sorry but I would never help or support a Dick on the course or else he will never know that he is a dick...!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    thegolfnut wrote: »
    Sorry but I would never help or support a Dick on the course or else he will never know that he is a dick...!!!

    But by doing exactly what he is doing, he might think its the norm to not help and be a d1ck, as you say possibly without realising he's a d1ck.
    By searching for his ball, you'd be showing him the proper way to behave, no ?

    I do find it hard to believe that anyone who doesn't help an opponent search for a ball doesn't realise what they're doing though. If winning a match means that much to them, let them at it, I'm not going to be a d1ck just because they are.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Norfolk Enchants_


    thegolfnut wrote: »
    Sorry but I would never help or support a Dick on the course or else he will never know that he is a dick...!!!
    So you'd prefer to become a dick instead?
    Perhaps golf isn't for you then.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    right enough of the dick chat.

    In my first ever matchplay event my opponent helped me find every single wayward shot!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭ib_sanf


    It's an interesting question. Especially when you're playing match play in a club event and there's just the two of you. Easier when there are playing partners.

    I think the very,very least an opponent should do is spot your ball as you hit it and give you their best opinion on what line it took - where it entered the rough etc.

    Then maybe give you a better line as you get closer to the area where the ball is, and maybe have a quick, and genuine search with them in the area.

    That's what I'd do, at a minimum, and that's what I think is sporting and good etiquette.

    That said - there are plenty of golfers who do well in golf because they are conveniently selfish. Even friendly playing partners can be oblivious and lacking in this part of etiquette.

    Really easy for them to say - ohh I didn't see there that went.
    It's not the way I'd want to win a match however.

    I think it's another question if you have an opponent who is spraying the ball everywhere into deep rough shot after shot then taking close to 5 mins each time to search for the ball.
    I'd spot the ball for him and give him a line to it - not your opponents obligation to keep searching for your ball shot after shot in that scenario though IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    I played a match in the European. We found all the balls he hit into the rough but he never managed to find one of mine. I'm pretty sure 2 of my balls i found he had walked pretty much over them and both were sitting up. beat him which i felt was justice in the end but was tempted to not bother looking for his ball on the 17th.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭Deep Thought


    Was playing in a match play, one up on the 18th.

    Opponent put his into the rough on the right...

    Did I help him look...one up on 18, afraid not

    The narrower a man’s mind, the broader his statements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Order of shots is surely irrelevant though for two reasons:
    1) You are hardly going to go ahead of him looking for the ball when he is playing another. Recipe for a dangerous situation
    2) Even if you find it before he hits his next he can just deem it unplayable and take the same shot he was going to before you found it

    EEK So much wrong with your 2)!!!
    If he hits another then he has to declare it as a provisional or not.
    So you don't need to run ahead of him to look for it.
    If he finds the first then the provisional is null and void, irregardless of its playability; you cant declare the original unplayable and then continue with the provo, you drop or replay the original shot.
    If the second ball wasnt a provisional then there is no point in looking for it.
    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Here's a question (not matchplay related)....guy hits first into dodgy area. Hits provisional. We get to place first should be. No sign. Just as we are giving up (guy says he probably doesn't want to find it given the look of the area) one lad sees a ball. Asks player if he wants to find it. Player says no. Guy who spotted ball does not go over to identify it so player hits second ball which is now ball in play. Guy who spotted ball picks up ball - it was his playing partners. Return it to him after hole is finished. Any issue ?

    No problem with above. The player doesnt have to look for their ball.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Dbu


    Have always helped an opponent find his ball
    I have never in my lifetime came across someone that didnt help me look for a stray ball
    Its just good manners
    maybe we are just nice people here in Cork :-)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    Was playing in a match play, one up on the 18th.

    Opponent put his into the rough on the right...

    Did I help him look...one up on 18, afraid not

    I admire your honesty but you're not much of a sportsman - golf is supposed to be a game for gentlemen!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    Was playing in a match play, one up on the 18th.

    Opponent put his into the rough on the right...

    Did I help him look...one up on 18, afraid not

    That is kinda sad. Would you not prefer to win a match by playing good shots rather than hoping and not helping an opponent look for a ball. Very poor etiquette.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 Chrispb


    byronbay2 wrote: »
    I admire your honesty but you're not much of a sportsman - golf is supposed to be a game for gentlemen!



    Have to agree , golf is a game of integrity and honesty, it's one of the only self regulated sports . While your not breaking any rules it's at the very least poor etiquette . Would be a hollow win for me if I won by that mentality

    But as I said your not breaking any rules so that's an individual choice to make , different strokes for different folks .


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    GreeBo wrote: »
    ...
    If he finds the first then the provisional is null and void, irregardless of its playability; you cant declare the original unplayable and then continue with the provo, you drop or replay the original shot...

    Bang on, has to be one of the most misunderstood or wrongly applied rule I see

    EDIT only drop if in hazard though...

    My stuff on Adverts, mostly Tesla Pre Highland Model 3

    Public Profile active ads for slave1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    EEK So much wrong with your 2)!!!
    If he hits another then he has to declare it as a provisional or not.
    So you don't need to run ahead of him to look for it.
    If he finds the first then the provisional is null and void, irregardless of its playability; you cant declare the original unplayable and then continue with the provo, you drop or replay the original shot.
    If the second ball wasnt a provisional then there is no point in looking for it

    I was dealing with the case where you said your opponent could look for a ball you don't want found. And I said you could just play a second ball and not call it provisional. And then you said but it might not be your shot. What I was trying to say was I don't understand how order of play is relevant.

    Anyway my understanding is exactly as you outline in comments above. I think we got crossed wires.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    slave1 wrote: »
    Bang on, has to be one of the most misunderstood or wrongly applied rule I see

    EDIT only drop if in hazard though...

    You can take a drop even if not in hazard in unplayable case. Directly in line with pin as far back as you like or two club lengths not nearer the hole.

    http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules/Ball-Unplayable.aspx


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    I was dealing with the case where you said your opponent could look for a ball you don't want found. And I said you could just play a second ball and not call it provisional. And then you said but it might not be your shot. What I was trying to say was I don't understand how order of play is relevant.

    Anyway my understanding is exactly as you outline in comments above. I think we got crossed wires.

    Order of play is still important, you cannot play out of turn in a match (opponent can force you to replay the shot)
    So you can indeed look for your opponents ball, as long as its not their turn to play.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Order of play is still important, you cannot play out of turn in a match (opponent can force you to replay the shot)
    So you can indeed look for your opponents ball, as long as its not their turn to play.

    Agreed. But again I don't see the relevance. Say you find it how does it change anything ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Agreed. But again I don't see the relevance. Say you find it how does it change anything ?

    If you find it then he has to play it (or at least abandon the provisional)?

    /edit

    Say its a par 3,
    First ball goes behind trees, position unknown,
    Player calls provo,
    Hits provo to 1 inch and makes no effort to look for first ball.
    You are entitled to go and look for his first ball for 5 minutes.
    If your ball was 1/2inch away then the opponent can hole his putt, effectively ending your search. As long as its your turn to play you can spend the full 5 mins.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    If you find it then he has to play it (or at least abandon the provisional)?

    Ah ok so the advantage is that if he called a provisional and hit it well then finding his ball in a bad situation makes him either play it or take an unplayable. And if he chooses to replay shot then he might not hit it as well as the provisional even though both would still be 3 off the tee (assuming tee shot).

    I was thinking of a scenario where he hits it into wilderness. You hit. Then he hits again without calling provisional. But as you say in that case you are hardly going to be looking for it in between his shots as you would not have walked forward to begin with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    If you find it then he has to play it (or at least abandon the provisional)?

    /edit

    Say its a par 3,
    First ball goes behind trees, position unknown,
    Player calls provo,
    Hits provo to 1 inch and makes no effort to look for first ball.
    You are entitled to go and look for his first ball for 5 minutes.
    If your ball was 1/2inch away then the opponent can hole his putt, effectively ending your search. As long as its your turn to play you can spend the full 5 mins.

    Interesting one. Would you though ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Ah ok so the advantage is that if he called a provisional and hit it well then finding his ball in a bad situation makes him either play it or take an unplayable. And if he chooses to replay shot then he might not hit it as well as the provisional even though both would still be 3 off the tee (assuming tee shot).

    I was thinking of a scenario where he hits it into wilderness. You hit. Then he hits again without calling provisional. But as you say in that case you are hardly going to be looking for it in between his shots as you would not have walked forward to begin with.
    If he doesnt declare it a provisional there is no benefit to either of you looking for it (well other than the fact he might get his ball back)
    alxmorgan wrote: »
    Interesting one. Would you though ?

    Probably not, unless the gamesmanship had already started.
    It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭alxmorgan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Probably not, unless the gamesmanship had already started.
    It happened in a match I was I before though, our clubmembers who had been watching the match knew our ball was in the hay, our provo was on the green. Opponent and his crew went looking and found our ball buried...

    Can't imagine there was a shared cup of tea/pint in the bar afterwards then


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