Battlefield Hardline - Closed Beta - General Discussion

Sparks

All the DLCs for BF4 gave us new weapons and skins, and mods like Naval Assault gave us new game modes. They're not TCs. Take an urban map in BF4, give everyone's character a cop or robber skin, seriously restrict the choice of weapons and gadgets available and reskin the selection interface (and add that stupid qualifying system, which isn't an in-game bit of logic anyway), and you get Hardline. The changes really are minor compared to say, the differences between Quake 2 and Half-life (remember, Half-life rewrote something like 70% of the Quake engine source code, there's a damn good reason it wasn't thought of as a mod).

MajesticDonkey

Sparks wrote: »

My bottom. Wolfenstein 3D didn't, Doom didn't, Quake didn't, Quake 2 didn't, none of the FPSs had this "qualifying" nonsense until recently. (Yes, I'm going way back. I do that, I'm old :P )

I was talking about games I've played :P

Sparks wrote: »

And even BF4 doesn't have this system, because in BF4 it was a case of "get this many kills with this gun, unlock this scope and use it". In Hardline it's "earn in-game money but you aren't allowed spend it on that scope until you also get this many kills with this gun". Not enough to earn the credits, you have to qualify in order to spend them as well. That's a pure pay-to-win bull**** tactic right there, just look at Ghost Recon which uses exactly the same system so you'll pay more real-world money to level up. (And it's been called out as nonsense there as well because unless you drop as much real-world money in-game as you did to buy BF4, you can't compete once you get past the beginner fenced-in levels, no matter how much you practice).

Well I didn't know that, so my bad. BF4's system was fine, IMO, but now they seem to be requiring you to pass two landmarks to unlock something? (I haven't played it, and have no intention of playing it for the foreseeable future)

fl4pj4ck

Quake2 source code has nothing to do with HalfLife, don't know where are you taking this from. Two completely different games by two completely different companies/studios.

Sparks

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

I was talking about games I've played :P

So was I young whippersnapper... :P

BF4's system was fine, IMO, but now they seem to be requiring you to pass two landmarks to unlock something? (I haven't played it, and have no intention of playing it for the foreseeable future)

Yup. You earn money in-game for various things, and you spend it on weapons and upgrades (like Counterstrike) but you have to first qualify to spend it. So you can't save up a few grand and go buy a 4x ACOG for your M16, you have to first get two combat stars with it first. And the number of stars you need varies according to the thing you're trying to buy (some require as many as ten).

Meanwhile, you're fighting against people who've gotten the higher power-ups and it's just all one long uphill slog.

MajesticDonkey

Well OK then, that is overkill in fairness. I agree with forcing players to have to work at something to unlock it, but with Hardline you obviously have to work to earn money, and then work again to unlock the weapon before you can buy it. One would be enough.

Sparks

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

Quake2 source code has nothing to do with HalfLife, don't know where are you taking this from. Two completely different games by two completely different companies/studios.

Halflife was originally written using a licenced version of the quake 2 engine (if I remember right, in the end they went with the quake engine heavily rewritten and with chunks of quake 2 folded into it). So were several other games. That's how TCs used to work, back in the dim, distant past before we paid people full-time salaries to work on jounce and jiggle physics for the female character's breasts (instead of, you know, network code, hit detection, gameplay and other boring stuff which BF4 showed us are really all solved issues at this point).

That's why that youtube lad is saying Hardline's a mod, not a TLC. The sheer amount of work that went into a TLC meant you often couldn't recognise the original game's engine when you saw the TLC running, but you almost always could with a mod.

fl4pj4ck

Sparks wrote: »

Halflife was originally written using a licenced version of the quake 2 engine (if I remember right, in the end they went with the quake engine heavily rewritten and with chunks of quake 2 folded into it). So were several other games. That's how TLCs used to work, back in the dim, distant past before we paid people full-time salaries to work on jounce and jiggle physics for the female character's breasts (instead of, you know, network code, hit detection, gameplay and other boring stuff which BF4 showed us are really all solved issues at this point).

That's why that youtube lad is saying Hardline's a mod, not a TLC. The sheer amount of work that went into a TLC meant you often couldn't recognise the original game's engine when you saw the TLC running, but you almost always could with a mod.

nope. HL was based on GoldSrc (which later evolved into Source), which was loosely based on Q engine, that was published as GPL in 1999. so while it was using some of the Q engine concepts I don't think you can say it's using the same engine

here are the games based on Q engine and derivatives, you can see it's not exactly straight forward

Sparks

And what do you think goldsrc is but a heavily modified (70% rewritten) version of the quake engine with chunks of the quake 2 engine added in?

fl4pj4ck

ah, following that thinking we can say all the games are based on Q engine. 70% original content doesn't qualify it as "modification"

edit:
so "Natural Selection" for HL was a mod or total conversion?

Sparks

From what I remember from the first time through this, the original news about HalfLife was that they were going to develop for it on the quake 2 engine, but that wasn't going to be ready in time so they ported over their work to quake 1's engine and then they found they had to modify that a lot. That chart is handy to remember where everything ended up, but we didn't exactly see it at the time, if you follow me.

Never played natural selection, don't know.

BlitzKrieg

Just to clarify

there are three levels on this issue:

1. Same engine:

titles use the same engine but use their own assets, game design and mechanics: So the countless Unreal engine titles etc. This is the base level for commercially sold titles.

You cannot accuse a title like Bioshock being a TC of Gears of War because they use the same engine.

2. Total Conversion

This is where a game (not the engine) is used as a base for a new title, so a portion of the games core mechanics are kept but there a whole new models, textures and design features

this would be games like the original counter strike which kept half lifes online code, its movement programming (you can spot a half life/source title a mile away simply by going up to a ladder) its gun and explosion mechanics

but there were whole new models and the game design was completely shifted in a new multiplayer focus on a pseudo realism

3. Mod

this is where a game is mostly kept intact but some mechanics are shifted around or a new model/mechanic is introduced

Wasteland on Arma 2 is a great example of this, almost all of its elements are featured in standard Arma but they've been reorganised to fit the wasteland game mode. No new models.


I could see the complaint of Battlefield hardline being a bit of a total conversion, because as I stressed total conversion took a lot of work and for the most part they failed to finish, the list of incomplete tcs that were in some early stage of development for half life vs the finished list is a very clear example of this. It's not a simple task doing a TC, it's pretty much making a new game, but using the original game as a base, you can argue all sequels do that.

You might even argue that they are called total conversions and given out for free simply based on legal grounds, you couldnt take a title that at its core contains another persons work and sell it as your own. Unless of course the original developers approve and support you (Counter strike, gunman chronicles, left for dead)

battlefield hardline total conversion? yeah I'd believe that, but I accept total conversions take a lot of work, much more then the impression the video above gave, and if it guaranteed a final product (remember high failure rate) then the question of it having a monetary worth is valued and should be considered.

the issue though is looking at the full package (the above multiplayer "total conversion" plus a full single player campaign) then it's reasonable to pay full title price if you want that. Problem is even if it sucks (which in most cases it does) you still need to pay for the single player content and that pushes the price up.

there very well could be a version of battlefield hardline that is much cheaper and is multiplayer only, but for some reason EA seem to think we want our single player bull. And we gots to pay for that.

Sparks

After the BF4 single player campaign, I think we all have a fairly strong reason to think paying for a Hardline single player campaign would be a poor waste of money...

DeWinterZero

6 hours played, all attachments for 2 weapons unlocked (UMP-45 & Uzi). I don't have to unlock each individually like in BF3/4. You just unlock the grip/sight/etc section and then buy whatever you want. Its fairly easy to get the cash by dropping ammo/repairing or playing the objectives. The game is fun but I'm glad I'm not on console since I plan on buying it at a discounted price from a key site.

I like having to unlock weapons & attachments. Mind you I do have a lot of spare time. I'd get bored fairly quickly of a quake 3 setup these days. Besides, Sparks wouldn't have the time (and maybe the reflexes ) to learn all the maps & quirks thats required for a twitch em up. He'd just be complaining about that instead.

The whole Mod/TC thing is now very 1990's. By the 1990s definition most modern games would be at best TCs. These days there's only a few game engines, Frostbite, CryEngine, Unreal and maybe 1 or two more. Its just too expensive to write a brand new engine every few years.

MajesticDonkey is just pissed that he hasn't got a key for BF Hardline yet

MajesticDonkey

DeWinterZero wrote: »

MajesticDonkey is just pissed that he hasn't got a key for BF Hardline yet

Strangely enough I do have one but just have zero interest (and a lack of time at the moment) in actually playing it.

Sparks

I'm definitely not into twitch-em-ups allright DWZ, it's why I moved from CoD to BF in the first place. Why bother with tactics or strategy or outthinking an opponent when some 14-year-old on meth just does that thing where they jump, rotate through 720 degrees mid-air then headshot you from across the map using a 40x scope? :P

MajesticDonkey

Sparks wrote: »

I'm definitely not into twitch-em-ups allright DWZ, it's why I moved from CoD to BF in the first place. Why bother with tactics or strategy or outthinking an opponent when some 14-year-old on meth just does that thing where they jump, rotate through 720 degrees mid-air then headshot you from across the map using a 40x scope? :P

Well BF3 was as much of a twitch-em-up as BF4 was/is, and BF is going and will be going more like COD as time goes on. Whoever shoots first wins, 95% of the time.

Sparks

BF3 was definitely worse than BFBC2 but it wasn't as bad as BF4. It's definitely on a slippery slope

And you know where it's headed, don't you? A computer networked version of this:



First 12-year-old to click the mouse button wins!

jonski

Sparks wrote: »

I'm definitely not into twitch-em-ups allright DWZ, it's why I moved from CoD to BF in the first place. Why bother with tactics or strategy or outthinking an opponent when some 14-year-old on meth just does that thing where they jump, rotate through 720 degrees mid-air then headshot you from across the map using a 40x scope? :P

This is 100% a description of me ........ the first part obviously , not the second . And I really like the term twitch-em-up , it perfectly describes what I don't want to play and also what i am too old to do

TireeTerror

Nvidia beta drivers out today which have SLI profile for BF Hardline. Marked improvement for me.

dreamers75

No chance im paying 70 for this, when its in the 20-30 range on g2play I get it.

Dont understand people wanting a game that can jump in and out of because they have a life. Most people want a game with some depth.

fl4pj4ck

dreamers75 wrote: »

No chance im paying 70 for this, when its in the 20-30 range on g2play I get it.

Dont understand people wanting a game that can jump in and out of because they have a life. Most people want a game with some depth.

it was e35 on g2play the other day, e39 at the moment

mozattack

Sparks wrote: »

My gaming time is whatever I can steal from my sleep time. The time that used to be my gaming time is now used to wrestle a naked poop-covered toddler in the shower so I can get him cleaned up and back into a nappy; so when I don't like facing exactly the same task when I fire up a game to unwind (instead of the more sensible opening-a-beer option). It's dumb, it's stupid, and I do not play computer games so that I can do repetitive tasks over and over again to get to the good stuff (FFS, I write scripts in work to do that kind of stuff for me, why would I go back to the dull stuff on my own time?).

I am in the same boat, limited time but I seriously dont understand the problem in having to use iron sights to get to 10 kills and from then on in you have the beloved RDS.

Also it makes the guns actually different in that you unlock various sights faster depending on where the gun is from.

mozattack

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

huh? completely new maps, completely new game modes - if this is not "massive" then I'm lost here
of course, the game is based on the same gfx engine so it kinda "feels" the same. the scenery however changed, what is this if not a total conversion?

Agree 100%... people moan that it is a reskined model of BF and then others complain that they have changed too much.

Seriously DICE cant win.

I think the idea is good although I am not sure if it will be worth playing... seems a little childish and in a game like destruction should have been ramped up and that is the biggest issue which no-one seems too concerned about

Sparks

dreamers75 wrote: »

Dont understand people wanting a game that can jump in and out of because they have a life. Most people want a game with some depth.

It's a multiplayer FPS.
Oddly, being nearly 40, I've done the learning curve on those before. Now I just want to play the game instead of doing the tutorial or the unlock dance. I know what an RDS looks like, I've played BFBC2, BF3 and BF4, EA deciding to drag things out is not adding to my enjoyment of the RDS when I finally see it with some sort of anticipation! The fun in the game for me is not the well-rendered animations or the shiny toys, it's the fact that there are other people in the game. They're where the fun comes from, not getting the reticle on the PSO-1 absolutely authentic...

(BTW moz, DICE didn't do hardline, Visceral did...)

fl4pj4ck

If you don't want to commit to a new game just stay with the old one, keep your weapons/attachments and just have fun, there's nothing stopping you from doing that.
BF4 gave me close to 200hours of play, and I play only 2-3 hours a week. Even at e70 pricepoint that means I pay close to nothing per /h.

Sparks

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

If you don't want to commit to a new game just stay with the old one

Sounds good to me! Oh, wait...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-05-12-50-ea-games-will-have-their-servers-shut-down

fl4pj4ck

It looks to me like you like whining. Don't get me wrong, but BF2 came out in 2005, that means it's been played for 9 years already.

Sparks

Ah, so I should stay with the old one, but not the one that's *too* old...
And it's not called whining, it's called complaining. I have a toddler, believe me when I say I know what whining is...

fl4pj4ck

I've 2 kids - can I call you names now?
there's been two more BF games after BF2. and yes, it's called whining. whats stopping you playing BF4, or BF3 for that matter?

Sparks

Nothing, and I have and do.
But go ahead and tell me again how if I have a complaint about bad design in a new game, the right thing to do is shut up and keep playing the old one. Go on, please, I enjoyed that so much...