Homeless "spikes" being put down at London establishments

Kermit.de.frog

I think the owners of this property have denied this but it seems fairly blatant all the same.

In London "The Destitute Are Now Considered Vermin"

First, the world's oligarchs slowly but surely took over London real estate, where as we reported last week, home prices in May soared by the most in 12 years, and now, according to the Telegraph, in order to make London into an even more exclusive enclave where only the uber-wealthy can rub shoulders, assorted luxury buildings are installing metal spikes on the ground outside to fully deter homeless people from sleeping (and hence living) there. In other words, in London homeless people have been relegated to pigeon status, as the same technique has been long used to prevent rats with wings from landing, and defecating, at select locations.

...

The narrative of the rich having bought London and now forcing out "the (much poorer) natives" has resonances with the past in many places too but maybe that is another argument. To treat people who have lost everything or have nothing in this way seems really bad to me.


Any thoughts on this?

*fixed link

urabell

Anyone against this should allow the winos in question to sleep and piss in their doorways.

UCDVet

Meh - it's easy to say, 'Oh that's awful! Those poor people have no place to go...'

But would you want to leave your home each day and see homeless people sleeping against your building? Would you want to rent an apartment with homeless people outside of it? For most people, the answer is 'no'.

I wouldn't.

I'm happy to pay taxes that support social programs that benefit the poor/homeless. But being homeless doesn't (in my opinion) give people a free-pass to sleep wherever they want.

Alf. A. Male

I agree, it's a poor reflection on society that the instinct of so many is to treat people as a problem rather than treating people's problems.

OneEightSeven

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

To treat people who have lost everything or have nothing in this way seems really bad to me.

Why don't you let them sleep on your doorstep then?

Mr_Red

Person -> Fall -> Injury -> Sue -> Removal -> End of story

BeerWolf

Spikes... how welcoming to see them while visiting - or they inside the ground, to which they're activated to impale aforementioned homeless people ?!

o1s1n

Are they not just asking for trouble by using spike shapes? Imagine someone tripped and smacked their head off one of them.

Would make more sense to use ball type shapes (you know the ones you see along railings/steps etc to deter skateboarders)

urabell

Mr_Red wrote: »

Person - Fall - Injury - Sue - Removal - End of story

You can say that about steps, about bicycle racks, about just about anything.

Didn't they copy that from china or something

Kermit.de.frog

urabell wrote: »

Anyone against this should allow the winos in question to sleep and piss in their doorways.

I hope you never have to sleep in a doorway due to any misfortune. You might change your tune pretty quick.

Fair enough many addict and low life homeless out there, I agree. Equally many who have just fallen on hard times and that will get worse now when banks come looking for properties.

Mr_Red

urabell wrote: »

You can say that about steps, about bicycle racks, about just about anything.

Spikes in the ground do not benefit the public

My name is URL

They could just lay a bit of plywood down over it. Then they'd have a nice raised platform to keep them dry and a bit warmer!

urabell

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I hope you never have to sleep in a doorway due to any misfortune. You might change your tune pretty quick.

Fair enough many addict and low life homeless out there, I agree. Equally many who have just fallen on hard times and that will get worse now when banks come looking for properties.

"… if hunger were once allowed to be an excuse for stealing, it would open a door through which all kinds of lawlessness and disorder would pass... . If homelessness were once admitted as a defence to trespass, no one's house could be safe. Necessity would open a door which no man could shut. It would not only be those in extreme need who would enter. There would be others who would imagine that they were in need, or would invent a need, so as to gain entry."

per Lord Denning in Southwark LBC v Williams [1971]

I do my bit for the homeless but there's a line

Mr_Red wrote: »

Spike is the ground do not benefit the public

Yes they do

And that isn't the standard used for things that might cause you to trip and fall

Deise Packers

Blast em with piss?

Murt10

It's also going to effect ODC'c (ordinary decent criminals) going about their work.

Wonder what happens if a dog gets impaled. The Brits would see this as a much bigger problem.

o1s1n

urabell wrote: »

Yes they do

How so?

SEPT 23 1989

A nice raised bed of flowers would be more visually appealing than Mega-City 1 style spikes

Mr_Red

urabell wrote: »

Yes they do

Oh please do explain exactly how spikes in the ground benefit the public in every day life?

I'm intrigued

e_e

It's like something George Orwell would write.

urabell

o1s1n wrote: »

How so?

Benefit the public doesn't mean benefit young idealists who are happy for the homeless to encroach on the property of large city establishments because they feel sorry for them.

It also doesn't mean benefit the public as a whole.
It does benefit the customers and staff of such establishments who don't have to deal with drunk, loud, homeless people. Like it or not those sleeping on the streets are those on the streets are usually those with far reaching mental and social problems who don't mix well with others.

Like I said ( and really don't like saying Matthew 6:1-4) but it seems relevant here is that I do help the homeless but allowing them to sleep in the doorway of a business isn't helping anyone.

My name is URL

e_e wrote: »

It's like something George Orwell would write.

Or Sonic the Hedgehog developers

anncoates

I remember seeing pictures of public benches in LA in the 1990s that were tubular to stop homeless people sleeping on them.

As for the spikes, I can just see a kid stepping on them and getting a big claim.

BizzyC

Interesting take on the spikes:
http://imsorrythatimlikethis.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/the-spikes/

Kermit.de.frog

urabell wrote: »

far reaching mental problems who don't mix well with others.

And your answer to their "mental problems" is to make life even worse and have them isolated even more?

Kermit.de.frog

urabell wrote: »

far reaching mental problems who don't mix well with others.

double post

o1s1n

urabell wrote: »

Benefit the public doesn't mean benefit young idealists who are happy for the homeless to encroach on the property of large city establishments because they feel sorry for them.

How patronizing.

urabell wrote: »

It also doesn't mean benefit the public as a whole.
It does benefit the customers and staff of such establishments who don't have to deal with drunk, loud, homeless people. Like it or not those sleeping on the streets are those on the streets are usually those with far reaching mental and social problems who don't mix well with others.

Now we're down to the meat of it. It benefits the public as it means we don't have to deal with those smelly undesirables. Out of sight, out of mind.

urabell wrote: »

Like I said ( and really don't like saying Matthew 6:1-4) but it seems relevant here is that I do help the homeless but allowing them to sleep in the doorway of a business isn't helping anyone.

Do you really think a homeless person is giddy going around all day, really looking forward to the joyful experience of sleeping in a doorway? really?

They do so out of necessity.

When I used to walk up Grafton street every morning to work at about 7:30am, the Gardai would go along each shop and wake them up. They'd be gone before any business owners or customers had to deal with them.

cletus van damme

urabell wrote: »

I do my bit for the homeless but there's a line

Can you describe what do you do for the homeless?

The King of Moo

It's possible to not want to have homeless people sleeping in your doorway, and at the same time think that putting spikes in the ground is pretty nasty.
It's not like it's the only possible way to deal with the situation. How about these people living in these posh areas offer them a few pounds to move down the road a little bit.

lolosaur

I think this is a very good idea.

The faux outrage on people is rediculous.

If you are so dead set against them, why did you let such a problem arise in the first place.

these should be along the hapenny bridge and all around temple bar.
Talbot street should also just be covered in them from one end to another.


Imagine buying a flat to see some homeless lad has pi*sed and sh1t himself in the doorway. how awful. cider cans, rubbish, filth littering your pavement. being in fear of going out incase you were robbed by the beggar outside. always worrying about your place because there is a hobo living right outside. Even worse, he could get in when you are asleep and rape you.

My god, the more i think about this, the more i feel the homeless should be rounded up at night and brought to community halls to wait out the night.

jesus, what if you stood on a junkie needle and it went through your foot. you could et aids or anything.

I really dont see how anyone wouldnt want this. great if you live in a suburb where homeless peoplr woth thread, this wouldnt be an issue to you.

benefit, some lad is dry for the night. there are plenty of places to do that though.
Drawbacks however are 10 fold.

urabell

cletus van damme wrote: »

Can you describe what do you do for the homeless?

Matthew 6:1-4 still applies but since you asked, I have given a few hours of my week to the simon community since I began to drive.

o1s1n wrote: »

How patronizing.

No it's ok, “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

o1s1n wrote: »

Now we're down to the meat of it. It benefits the public as it means we don't have to deal with those smelly undesirables. Out of sight, out of mind.

Smelly is your word. Mentally ill often violent. I worked in a coffee shop in town before. Often one of the young girls would open it up. I would prefer she didn't have to move off a sleeping homeless man to do so.

o1s1n wrote: »

Do you really think a homeless person is giddy going around all day, really looking forward to the joyful experience of sleeping in a doorway? really?

No, never suggested it either, excellent reading between the lines though.

o1s1n wrote: »

They do so out of necessity.

Will quote this again since your cherry-picking what posts you want to reply to.

"… if hunger were once allowed to be an excuse for stealing, it would open a door through which all kinds of lawlessness and disorder would pass... . If homelessness were once admitted as a defence to trespass, no one's house could be safe. Necessity would open a door which no man could shut. It would not only be those in extreme need who would enter. There would be others who would imagine that they were in need, or would invent a need, so as to gain entry."

per Lord Denning in Southwark LBC v Williams [1971]

o1s1n wrote: »

When I used to walk up Grafton street every morning to work at about 7:30am, the Gardai would go along each shop and wake them up. They'd be gone before any business owners or customers had to deal with them.

Grand so you're in support of the homeless sleeping in doorways as long as it's within the hours you've arbitrarily deemed ok to do so, you're part of the homeless shouldn't have lie ins brigade. I guess I am too.

Legs.Eleven

The homeless don't sleep in doorways of businesses to be a pain in the arse, they do it because they're sheltered. Provide accommodation in the form of homeless shelters (instead of closing them all down as has been done since Thatcher got into power) and this might reduce the problem. Sticking spikes down and treating human beings like feckin' pigeons won't solve anything. More looking away and pretending it's not happening bollocks from the horrible arseholes in power in Britain.

lolosaur

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

The homeless don't sleep in doorways of businesses to be a pain in the arse, they do it because they're sheltered. Provide accommodation in the form of homeless shelters (instead of closing them all down as has been done since Thatcher got into power) and this might reduce the problem. Sticking spikes down and treating human beings like feckin' pigeons won't solve anything. More looking away and pretending it's not happening bollocks from the horrible arseholes in power in Britain.

Why help people that dont want to be helped?

They dont arrive at being homeless overnight.


The ones that seek help will find it for the most part.

The ones thatdont look for the help and assistance are habitual, they are there, as someone said, in a cycle, they have been offered help but chose the path that led them to where they are.

OldNotWIse

lolosaur wrote: »

Why help people that dont want to be helped?

They dont arrive at being homeless overnight.


The ones that seek help will find it for the most part.

The ones thatdont look for the help and assistance are habitual, they are there, as someone said, in a cycle, they have been offered help but chose the path that led them to where they are.

Possibly the most smug, self-righteous post I've seen for a long time. Is the view nice up there on your pedestal?

Legs.Eleven

lolosaur wrote: »

Why help people that dont want to be helped?

They dont arrive at being homeless overnight.


The ones that seek help will find it for the most part.

The ones thatdont look for the help and assistance are habitual, they are there, as someone said, in a cycle, they have been offered help but chose the path that led them to where they are.

Thatcher shut down a load of homeless shelters in the 80s and they were so busy, there wasn't room for everyone. People were turned away every night. I'm not talking about rehabilitating the homeless or housing them, I'm talking about providing them with a roof over their head to sleep.

If they're going to mess around spending money why don't they set up another hostel or something
Spikes! feckin spikes!
how is that any use to anyone

keith16

Imagine your strolling along and fail to notice these.

I imagine a Lara Croft falling on spikes type death.

lolosaur

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Possibly the most smug, self-righteous post I've seen for a long time. Is the view nice up there on your pedestal?

I dunno, i cant see through the cloud of your moral pontificating.

If you had your way, this pedestal would be surrounded by cider cans and stink of **** and piss.

Dont drag the rest of us into the gutter we tried so hard to climb out of.

Its easier to give up then to try.

Legs.Eleven

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Thatcher shut down a load of homeless shelters in the 80s and they were so busy, there wasn't room for everyone..

Hm

is this it?
Changes in government policy designed to improve the accommodation standards for hostel dwellers closed an estimated 5,000 places in London hostels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_Sleepers_Initiative

I can see that happening here also with people calling for bedsits to be taken off the market for poor standards. The problem is that then there is no affordable alternative for people who would willingly rent them

weldoninhio

If I had a business I'd do the exact same. And as for giving them money to move on, how long before every degenerate in the city is on your doorstep looking for a handout.

end of the road

urabell wrote: »

Benefit the public doesn't mean benefit young idealists who are happy for the homeless to encroach on the property of large city establishments because they feel sorry for them.

It also doesn't mean benefit the public as a whole.
It does benefit the customers and staff of such establishments who don't have to deal with drunk, loud, homeless people. Like it or not those sleeping on the streets are those on the streets are usually those with far reaching mental and social problems who don't mix well with others.

Like I said ( and really don't like saying Matthew 6:1-4) but it seems relevant here is that I do help the homeless but allowing them to sleep in the doorway of a business isn't helping anyone.

the customers will have to deal with them, the problem isn't going away no matter what the gerry-manderers do

The King of Moo

lolosaur wrote: »

I think this is a very good idea.

The faux outrage on people is rediculous.

If you are so dead set against them, why did you let such a problem arise in the first place.

these should be along the hapenny bridge and all around temple bar.
Talbot street should also just be covered in them from one end to another.


Imagine buying a flat to see some homeless lad has pi*sed and sh1t himself in the doorway. how awful. cider cans, rubbish, filth littering your pavement. being in fear of going out incase you were robbed by the beggar outside. always worrying about your place because there is a hobo living right outside. Even worse, he could get in when you are asleep and rape you.

My god, the more i think about this, the more i feel the homeless should be rounded up at night and brought to community halls to wait out the night.

jesus, what if you stood on a junkie needle and it went through your foot. you could et aids or anything.

I really dont see how anyone wouldnt want this. great if you live in a suburb where homeless peoplr woth thread, this wouldnt be an issue to you.

benefit, some lad is dry for the night. there are plenty of places to do that though.
Drawbacks however are 10 fold.

No lolling with you at all .

end of the road

lolosaur wrote: »

I think this is a very good idea.

The faux outrage on people is rediculous.

If you are so dead set against them, why did you let such a problem arise in the first place.

these should be along the hapenny bridge and all around temple bar.
Talbot street should also just be covered in them from one end to another.


Imagine buying a flat to see some homeless lad has pi*sed and sh1t himself in the doorway. how awful. cider cans, rubbish, filth littering your pavement. being in fear of going out incase you were robbed by the beggar outside. always worrying about your place because there is a hobo living right outside. Even worse, he could get in when you are asleep and rape you.

My god, the more i think about this, the more i feel the homeless should be rounded up at night and brought to community halls to wait out the night.

jesus, what if you stood on a junkie needle and it went through your foot. you could et aids or anything.

I really dont see how anyone wouldnt want this. great if you live in a suburb where homeless peoplr woth thread, this wouldnt be an issue to you.

benefit, some lad is dry for the night. there are plenty of places to do that though.
Drawbacks however are 10 fold.

this post sounds like something on joe duffy

end of the road

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

closing them all down as has been done since Thatcher got into power

that was good old maggie for you, take from the most vunerible in society and the lick arses will vote her in again

lolosaur

The King of Moo wrote: »

No lolling with you at all .

My Lols became extinct when i saw how backwards boards was. fun isnt allowed.

circadian

Deise Packers wrote: »

Blast em with piss?

A very R Kelly approach to the problem.

end of the road

lolosaur wrote: »

Why help people that dont want to be helped?

They dont arrive at being homeless overnight.


The ones that seek help will find it for the most part.

The ones thatdont look for the help and assistance are habitual, they are there, as someone said, in a cycle, they have been offered help but chose the path that led them to where they are.

you don't want them to be helped, then put up shut up and get over the fact they will be there, shoving them out of sight out of mind is a failed policy

Tiddlypeeps

I have no problem with people doing this type of thing to their own private property. Nobody should be obliged to accommodate another person on their property if they do not want to.

I don't agree with the state introducing this type of measure. I think it's the states responsibility to provide a safety net to stop people falling below a certain level, homelessness is well below that level so if people get there it means the state has failed. The state introducing a measure like this doesn't make any sense anyway, because the homeless will just find somewhere else to sleep that is likely less comfortable but still just as much a nuisance to the public. It costs money and it solves nothing.

Was the case in the OP initiated by the state or by private property owners?

StinkyMunkey

If anyone has a problem with the spikes, why not advertise for the homeless to sleep on their property or door step - problem solved.

Its not a tenants, home owners or buisness owners job to provide a sleeping area for the homeless. That why i pay taxes to the government, people should be bashing the government for not doing more about the homeless, not the people who dont want violent, puking, smelly, mentally unfit etc living on their doorstep. Im all for my taxes being spent on housing the often mentally ill homeless. Im not all for having them living on my doorstep.

If people are so morally outraged by these spikes, go out and provide shelter for their local homeless and stop whinging about the people who have no interest in providing space/shelter for the homeless.

end of the road

there seems to be a movement of gerrymanderers who want to eradicate the poor from london whether it be homeless or moving londoners to other councils outside london for housing so the houses can be sold to the rich/wealthy upperclass types which london wants to be the only people to live work or to be attracted to it, london the city of the rich, cheep and tacky, feel sorry for real londoners who are having their city stolen from them

The King of Moo

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

If people are so morally outraged by these spikes, go out and provide shelter for their local homeless and stop whinging about the people who have no interest in providing space/shelter for the homeless.

YES, YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS!!