The unfolding story in Tuam

Little CuChulainn

Resonator75 wrote: »

Gimme those quote where Ive abused you or anyone else, better still talk to the mods rather than hurl it about in public.

Im blue in the face repeating the same points to you , Im not gonna start that wagon wheel again. To be fair your just repeating yourself to me so niether of us are getting anywhere , are we?

Just so we're clear. It's ok for you to complain about abuse

Resonator75 wrote: »

personal abuse dressed up as an argument.

but if anyone else does it should be kept private and addressed to the mods. I'm glad that's clear now. You're right, I think all that needs to be said has been said.

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Just so we're clear. It's ok for you to complain about abuse



but if anyone else does it should be kept private and addressed to the mods. I'm glad that's clear now. You're right, I think all that needs to be said has been said.

No links to my supposed abuse then? Not even the post numbers? Also, where have I complained about abuse? You cant be just making things up you know.

Imply what you want cause I anit offended anyone here, as shown by the fact you cannot provide a single example.

Thats the thing about straw men, they are blown down all to easily.

Report anything you think Ive done wrong to the mods or hold your council.

Little CuChulainn

Resonator75 wrote: »

No links to my supposed abuse then? Not even the post numbers? Also, where have I complained about abuse? You cant be just making things up you know.

Imply what you want cause I anit offended anyone here, as shown by the fact you cannot provide a single example.

Thats the thing about straw men, they are blown down all to easily.

Report anything you think Ive done wrong to the mods or hold your council.

But it's your strawman. In post 144 you're the one who said people were disguising abuse in arguments whereas you are the one who keeps getting personal with people here. "Pathetic" "Like something out of the 1950s" "Terrifying to think they might be serving members". Do you not consider those to be insults?

I've tried to debate this rationally with you. Yet still, nobody has said what crime may have been committed that warrants a crime scene or the exhumation of bodies. And before you try use another fantastic example, I'll address the ones you raised. If a body is found in your septic tank, you would probably be suspected of murder. If a 50 year old body is found in a graveyard and is accompanied by a death cert then there is not a suspicion of murder. If the skeleton of a man from the stoneage or the viking conquest is found then there would be no investigation. It would be an archaeology find.

The issue here is that you think the Gardaí should be investigating even if it is not a crime and I think someone else should be. I have not once said that this issue shouldn't be investigated at all or that it should be covered up. Quite the contrary. To continue to imply I hold such views is an insult whether you dress it up or not.

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

But it's your strawman. In post 144 you're the one who said people were disguising abuse in arguments whereas you are the one who keeps getting personal with people here. "Pathetic" "Like something out of the 1950s" "Terrifying to think they might be serving members". Do you not consider those to be insults?

I've tried to debate this rationally with you. Yet still, nobody has said what crime may have been committed that warrants a crime scene or the exhumation of bodies. And before you try use another fantastic example, I'll address the ones you raised. If a body is found in your septic tank, you would probably be suspected of murder. If a 50 year old body is found in a graveyard and is accompanied by a death cert then there is not a suspicion of murder. If the skeleton of a man from the stoneage or the viking conquest is found then there would be no investigation. It would be an archaeology find.

The issue here is that you think the Gardaí should be investigating even if it is not a crime and I think someone else should be. I have not once said that this issue shouldn't be investigated at all or that it should be covered up. Quite the contrary. To continue to imply I hold such views is an insult whether you dress it up or not.

Post 144 - I was referring to you accusing me of being to emotional on this issue to be logical, i.e. implying Im stupid and emotional. I stand by that and its clear for anyone that wants to read back.

The Garda's lack of action is pathetic and shameful,. Thats not personal abuse, its my opinion. Am I not allowed to be critical of An Garda?

It is quite scary to me that there are serving members of our police force (you are one I presume) who cannot see why people are upset at the lack of action. That is straight from the 50's. Not abuse. Not insults. My opinion. Whats the matter, you cannot take a bit of criticism without hurling accusations of abuse about ?

These bodies, if they are in this tank, seems to have been dumped illegally, you refuse to countenance the idea of even looking into it. That is very worrying from a serving member of AGS.

Again we go round the runabout, Im not gonna type it all out again and repeat what Ive said to you the last few days.

There is a difference between criticizing actions/ inaction's of groups and individuals and personal abuse. I attack the post not the person.

That my last word to you on this topic, you aint gonna drag me back to the start again.

And stop accusing me of insulting you personally FFS, give it up already and get a thicker skin if your gonna debate here.

Dan_Solo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

whereas you are the one who keeps getting personal with people here. "Pathetic" "Like something out of the 1950s" "Terrifying to think they might be serving members". Do you not consider those to be insults?

Ahem.

You know what...don't answer. Your inability to understand basic English and procedures is too frustrating to deal with. I've met special needs kids that comprehend quicker than you. And yes, that is a personal and direct insult aimed at you...getting banned will be no loss

Funny how you don't consider those to be personal insults, even when the poster said himself they were. Wouldn't want you doing any investigations of the Tuam site TBH with those detective skills...

petronius

Regarding Tuam, all these "mother and child homes" should be investigated thoroughly - and not just Tuam but Bessbrook, Castlepollard, Rathgar(Bethany Home) and others
The information regarding many of these homes was available in the public domain -
The Bethany Home which was protestant run and designated by the Church of Ireland as a place to send "fallen women" with child of the protestant faith sectarianism still persisted when claiming children of unmarried mothers.. inspected by the government and inmates sent there by the legal system
the high death rate around the 2nd world war period didnt attract the outrage which has justly occurred over Tuam.
-
There should be a 3 pronged investigation
1 treatment and deaths at the homes
2 adoptions
3 drug tests

Five Lamps

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I suppose that depends on whether your septic tank was used as a graveyard for 50 years.

Everybody knows what the facts are. Women and children were sent to these workhouses and lived in terrible conditions resulting in a high mortality rate. The bodies of those that died were unceremoniously buried nearby instead of in a church graveyard because all of society deemed them as lesser people.

That's it exactly it. Who are you going to try? Irish society in the first half of the 20th century?

I don't even if think an enquiry is going to shed any more light other than what we know already - though there are many who would like an enquiry to blame church or state. In reality, this is how "we" treated people back then.

Furthermore, in the case of Tuam the presence of this mass grave has been known for decades and the deaths a matter of public record. I would suspect that Ireland is not the only first world country that has similar graves.

These bodies, if they are in this tank, seems to have been dumped illegally, you refuse to countenance the idea of even looking into it. That is very worrying from a serving member of AGS.

There's nothing to suggest that they were buried illegal nor has it been demonstrated that this was a working sceptic tank (I would doubt it was).

Resonator75

Five Lamps wrote: »

That's it exactly it. Who are you going to try? Irish society in the first half of the 20th century?

I don't even if think an enquiry is going to shed any more light other than what we know already - though there are many who would like an enquiry to blame church or state. In reality, this is how "we" treated people back then.

Furthermore, in the case of Tuam the presence of this mass grave has been known for decades and the deaths a matter of public record. I would suspect that Ireland is not the only first world country that has similar graves.



There's nothing to suggest that they were buried illegal nor has it been demonstrated that this was a working sceptic tank (I would doubt it was).

This 'we are all to blame shtick' again...


Im not not to blame, nor are my ancestors. My ancestors were victims of the church and state, they were destroyed by Catholic Ireland.

Church and state relied on fear to run the country for 70/80 years this is the after effect of it.

It needs to be officially acknowledged what happened and explained why, no matter who is found at fault.


Also, the HUNDREDS of missing burial records indicate some seriously dogy happenings.

Why are we bothering with a judicial inquiry so if its all in our heads?

Five Lamps

Resonator75 wrote: »

This 'we are all to blame shtick' again...


Im not not to blame, nor are my ancestors. My ancestors were victims of the church and state, they were destroyed by Catholic Ireland.

Church and state relied on fear to run the country for 70/80 years this is the after effect of it.

It needs to be officially acknowledged what happened and explained why, no matter who is found at fault.


Also, the HUNDREDS of missing burial records indicate some seriously dogy happenings.

Why are we bothering with a judicial inquiry so if its all in our heads?

Well there you go. Firstly, you are applying todays standards to where Ireland was back in the day. It was a different world as was Europe - if you think what was going on in Ireland, look what was happening elsewhere in Europe.

You are also assuming that all this was motivated by or as a result of Catholic morales and/or a harsh state apparatus. Not so, these homes were set up as a response to a problem and run (quite appallingly) by religious orders.

To say women were second class citizens back in those days is an understatement. And if you were a woman with child and out of wedlock meant you were in a dreadful situation. You were facing complete poverty. Out of wedlock wasn't a problem because of Catholic morality - where were you going to get the money to feed yourself and child? This is why they existed.

Like the Launderies, Irish society was quite happy for somebody to take on the problem and really didn't care what the conditions were like once it was behind closed door. Out of sight and out of mind.

AmberSolace

Five Lamps wrote: »

Well there you go. Firstly, you are applying todays standards to where Ireland was back in the day. It was a different world as was Europe - if you think what was going on in Ireland, look what was happening elsewhere in Europe.

You are also assuming that all this was motivated by or as a result of Catholic morales and/or a harsh state apparatus. Not so, these homes were set up as a response to a problem and run (quite appallingly) by religious orders.

To say women were second class citizens back in those days is an understatement. And if you were a woman with child and out of wedlock meant you were in a dreadful situation. You were facing complete poverty. Out of wedlock wasn't a problem because of Catholic morality - where were you going to get the money to feed yourself and child? This is why they existed.

Like the Launderies, Irish society was quite happy for somebody to take on the problem and really didn't care what the conditions were like once it was behind closed door. Out of sight and out of mind.

When this home was in operation and when the institutions covered by Judge Ryan were in operation Ireland had basically the same Constitution as we have today. So it is very fair to judge those days by today's standards.

These same religious organisations also owned hospital and managed other types of schools, secondary and boarding schools but it seems when managing facilities for children from poor backgrounds these organisations resorted to fear and punishment and hunger and disease.

Five Lamps

AmberSolace wrote: »

When this home was in operation and when the institutions covered by Judge Ryan were in operation Ireland had basically the same Constitution as we have today. So it is very fair to judge those days by today's standards.

These same religious organisations also owned hospital and managed other types of schools, secondary and boarding schools but it seems when managing facilities for children from poor backgrounds these organisations resorted to fear and punishment and hunger and disease.

I don't agree. Different times and different standards - you pretty much point it out yourself as to how certain classes looked after themselves. As said look how women were treated in those days and you can see why these places exist.

AmberSolace

Five Lamps wrote: »

I don't agree. Different times and different standards - you pretty much point it out yourself as to how certain classes looked after themselves. As said look how women were treated in those days and you can see why these places exist.

Interesting disagreement. At the very height of Ireland's heralded Catholic piety and faithfulness the real picture was one of hypocrisy. The poor deserved punishment and the well off were allowed to dish that punishment out.

A kind of class war carried out by and behalf of the Catholic Church!

Five Lamps

AmberSolace wrote: »

Interesting disagreement. At the very height of Ireland's heralded Catholic piety and faithfulness the real picture was one of hypocrisy. The poor deserved punishment and the well off were allowed to dish that punishment out.

A kind of class war carried out by and behalf of the Catholic Church!

No, carried out by the people of Ireland upon themselves and outsourced to religious orders. Look at the drivers - women firmly second probably third class citizens. If you were a woman and had a child "out of wedlock" what were you going to do? You were facing complete poverty. If you were wealthy, well that unplanned child could cause some succession difficulties.

It's interesting that there are calls to include admissions to "mental institutions" in the same enquiry. It would seem that they were also used as a handy dumping ground as well - people bing sectioned etc.

I have no doubt that the religious orders ran these places in a harsh manner and the number of fatalities beggar belief - have a look at the "mass grave" in Letterfrack and you are gobsmacked as to why so many could die so young. But let's not kid ourselves that somehow this is all the fault of church and/or state and the general population had no act or part in it.