The unfolding story in Tuam

My name is URL

I have a few questions about how things are being done.

How come Gardai aren't doing any sort of investigation?

Why in the name of feck, is a potentially huge crime-scene not being secured by Gardai?

If they can't launch an investigation at present then fine, but it is still a potential crime scene, right? What happens if potential evidence is interfered with?

There are reports on RTE that a private firm have been drafted in by the Irish Daily Mail to do a radar examination

A private engineering company has carried out a subsurface radar examination of the site at the former Bons Secours mother-and-baby home in Tuam, Co Galway.

The examination follows reports of an unmarked mass grave at the former Catholic church-run home, where almost 800 children died between 1925 and 1961.


TST Engineering was commissioned to do the work by the Irish Mail on Sunday.

The world's media are in Tuam and there's not a Garda to be seen around the site. It's bizarre. Surely they could at least secure the area until a decision is made on whether or not an investigation is launched?

bravestar

Are you just venting ? Or do you actually expect that the average Garda, or any garda, on here has the answer to your question.

My name is URL

bravestar wrote: »

Are you just venting ? Or do you actually expect that the average Garda, or any garda, on here has the answer to your question.

A little bit of both tbh.

I'm genuinely bemused by the fact that there is no Garda presence at the scene. A tabloid newspaper has conducted a forensic survey before our own police force has even showed up... and in view of world media.

I mean, it's not good is it?

rotun

bravestar wrote: »

do you actually expect that the average Garda, or any garda, on here has the answer to your question.

it would be an insight to get an opinion of someone who has experience of these situations.

There's no answers in after hours, only venting.
If I personally knew any Gardaí, I'd ask them, but I don't..

bravestar

My name is URL wrote: »

A little bit of both tbh.

I'm genuinely bemused by the fact that there is no Garda presence at the scene. A tabloid newspaper has conducted a forensic survey before our own police force has even showed up... and in view of world media.

I mean, it's not good is it?

I get what your saying.

rotun wrote: »

it would be an insight to get an opinion of someone who has experience of these situations.

There's no answers in after hours, only venting.
If I personally knew any Gardaí, I'd ask them, but I don't..

The only Gardai who could give you any sort of an informed opinion are ones in the very top echelons. Yes, the mules are the ones who preserve scenes, but they are not the ones who make decisions about such things. That is my opinion, as someone who has experience of these situations.

NordieSteve

They are barely capable of solving a crossword puzzle.

Little CuChulainn

The Gardaí investigate crime with a view to prosecutions. There is no possibility of prosecutions in this case. That's the long and the short of it. I'm curious as to what evidence you think could be obtained from digging up all those bodies? Do you think there will be forensics after half a century in a septic tank? Even if you went by the standards set in shows like CSI and Bones you'd be stretching it. I'm also curious as to what crimes people think could be investigated. Was there even a law against child neglect back then?

Bongalongherb

In all fairness, the scene should be protected. In protected, I mean by the Gardai, as to the preservation of this crime scene regardless of age. It should be monitored at all times by a branch of the Gardai at least.

Phoebas

NordieSteve wrote: »

They are barely capable of solving a cross ward puzzle.

Because their spelling is so poor?

Interpol at this stage I think.

My name is URL

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The Gardaí investigate crime with a view to prosecutions. There is no possibility of prosecutions in this case. That's the long and the short of it. I'm curious as to what evidence you think could be obtained from digging up all those bodies? Do you think there will be forensics after half a century in a septic tank? Even if you went by the standards set in shows like CSI and Bones you'd be stretching it. I'm also curious as to what crimes people think could be investigated. Was there even a law against child neglect back then?

I don't even know where to start with that reply.. so I won't

mikom

NordieSteve wrote: »

They are barely capable of solving a cross ward puzzle.

Phoebas wrote: »

Because their spelling is so poor?

Cross Ward............ a lot of Cross wards in Tuam.

Try not to think so linear, Phoebas.

Shady Tady

mikom wrote: »

Cross Ward............ a lot of Cross wards in Tuam.

Try not to think so linear, Phoebas.

A few back wards as well!

NordieSteve

roadsmart

AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.

Mycroft H

roadsmart wrote: »

AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.

I'm pretty sure some acts even then would have been defined as criminal on the statute books.

roadsmart

Mycroft H wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some acts even then would have been defined as criminal on the statute books.

What acts though? There's been no allegations of a criminal nature made so far as far as I can see.

My name is URL

roadsmart wrote: »

What acts though? There's been no allegations of a criminal nature made so far as far as I can see.

The death of at least one child was reported to Gardai

The repeated we-know-nothing stance by the gardaí is especially strange given that the original article in the Irish Mail on Sunday reported that the family of one of the children who died at the home had already reported it to the gardaí.

I can't find the original Mail article but the above quote comes from The Journal

http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-tuam-babies-1502773-Jun2014/

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The Gardaí investigate crime with a view to prosecutions. There is no possibility of prosecutions in this case. That's the long and the short of it. I'm curious as to what evidence you think could be obtained from digging up all those bodies? Do you think there will be forensics after half a century in a septic tank? Even if you went by the standards set in shows like CSI and Bones you'd be stretching it. I'm also curious as to what crimes people think could be investigated. Was there even a law against child neglect back then?

What a ridiculous , deflecting post.

How can you be the judge of if a prosecution is possible?

Based on what knowledge?

Some of these people invlioved may well be alive. Thats why we need some action from out police force.

Resonator75

roadsmart wrote: »

AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.

Well '"I dont think" does not cut it.

If a mass grave was found in my back garden you can be damn sure it would be declared a crime scene until the facts are established.

This needs to be done in Tuam even if to prove in the end that there is actually nothing to see here.

Garda, theists and the government want to skip to the move along now phase without lifting a finger.

Shameful. Yet another stain on the Garda (top brass, not popping at the folks on the ground).

Little CuChulainn

My name is URL wrote: »

The death of at least one child was reported to Gardai



I can't find the original Mail article but the above quote comes from The Journal

http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-tuam-babies-1502773-Jun2014/

Death isn't a crime. People, even children, die all the time. For a criminal investigation there has to be a suspicion of an actual crime. A crime that was in existence at the time.

Resonator75 wrote: »

What a ridiculous , deflecting post.

How can you be the judge of if a prosecution is possible?

Based on what knowledge?

Some of these people invlioved may well be alive. Thats why we need some action from out police force.

It's pretty easy to judge if a prosecution would be possible. You're talking about prosecuting people in their eighties with no evidence other than a death cert. You can stamp your feet and look for someones head to roll if you want. It won't change anything. Nobody will face a criminal court for what happened to those children. Too much time has passed. You have to accept that fact.

The only thing we can hope for is the truth. A criminal trial is not the place for getting that in this kind of situation. Criminal courts are restricted by the laws of evidence and the media can only report what is allowed, which is not a lot when it comes to child victims. A public enquiry is the only way we might learn the truth. And any survivors can then use what is discovered in a civil case against the church.

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Death isn't a crime. People, even children, die all the time. For a criminal investigation there has to be a suspicion of an actual crime. A crime that was in existence at the time.



It's pretty easy to judge if a prosecution would be possible. You're talking about prosecuting people in their eighties with no evidence other than a death cert. You can stamp your feet and look for someones head to roll if you want. It won't change anything. Nobody will face a criminal court for what happened to those children. Too much time has passed. You have to accept that fact.

The only thing we can hope for is the truth. A criminal trial is not the place for getting that in this kind of situation. Criminal courts are restricted by the laws of evidence and the media can only report what is allowed, which is not a lot when it comes to child victims. A public enquiry is the only way we might learn the truth. And any survivors can then use what is discovered in a civil case against the church.

Well maybe it should be looked into before the outcome is decided as you have done. Im not asking for a criminal trial, if that was an outcome, so be it.

I am asking for the basic standard investigation to establish EXACTLY what happened. Like what would happen in most first world countries if a police force got wind of this.
.
You seem to know exactly what the fact are already.

Tell me, what would happen if a load of skeletons were found in my septic tank please?

Little CuChulainn

Resonator75 wrote: »

Well maybe it should be looked into before the outcome is decided as you have done. Im not asking for a criminal trial, I am asking for the basis of an investigation to establish EXACTLY what happened.

You seem to know exactly what the fact are already.

Tell me, what would happen if a load of skeletons were found in my septic tank please?

I suppose that depends on whether your septic tank was used as a graveyard for 50 years.

Everybody knows what the facts are. Women and children were sent to these workhouses and lived in terrible conditions resulting in a high mortality rate. The bodies of those that died were unceremoniously buried nearby instead of in a church graveyard because all of society deemed them as lesser people.

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I suppose that depends on whether your septic tank was used as a graveyard for 50 years.

Everybody knows what the facts are. Women and children were sent to these workhouses and lived in terrible conditions resulting in a high mortality rate. The bodies of those that died were unceremoniously buried nearby instead of in a church graveyard because all of society deemed them as lesser people.

Complete Nonsense, I hope you are not a Garda.

We do not know what the facts are. Thats the whole point. We have allegations and assumptions.

How many bodies are in there?

Who signed off on this?

Where are the records?

What time period did this occur between?

I've heard what happened could have been right up until the 1970's. I was alive in the 70's.

This COULD BE is recent stuff. We are still hunting Nazi's FFS, and rightly so.

This is why we need an investigation. Can you not see this?

This go back to sleep Ireland, nothing to see, attitude makes me sick. Scary stuff altogether.

Now, answer me , what would happen if a Charnel pit were found in my back garden?

My name is URL

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I suppose that depends on whether your septic tank was used as a graveyard for 50 years.

Do you not at least think that Gardai should be present at the site? There are scores of reporters there from all over the world and it looks terrible that our police force don't appear to be bothered enough to show up.

Whatever about any future investigation, is it not still a potential crime scene? The fact that a tabloid has hired a company to do radar searches before Gardai have even examined the area is quite simply shameful.

carpejugulum

roadsmart wrote: »

AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.

mass murder by the church = bad treatment

mikom

Resonator75 wrote: »

This go back to sleep Ireland, nothing to see, attitude makes me sick. Scary stuff altogether.

Now, answer me , what would happen if a Charnel pit were found in my back garden?

Forget the Charnel pit.
What if you had a bog in your back garden and you began to cut it......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gju6KnSeI8

Resonator75

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you not at least think that Gardai should be present at the site? There are scores of reporters there from all over the world and it looks terrible that our police force don't appear to be bothered enough to show up.

Whatever about any future investigation, is it not still a potential crime scene? The fact that a tabloid has hired a company to do radar searches before Gardai have even examined the area is quite simply shameful.

It is beyond shame. Our authorities are treating the victims and the public with total contempt.

An Garda Siochana :Hand in glove with the church when this was happening.

That's why nothing is being done.

Resonator75

mikom wrote: »

Forget the Charnel pit.
What if you had a bog in your back garden and you began to cut it......

Yeah, lots of rinky-dink pot busts to be carried out this weekend in Tuam.

Good to see they got their priorities in order.

Little CuChulainn

Resonator75 wrote: »

This go back to sleep Ireland, nothing to see, attitude makes me sick. Scary stuff altogether.

I understand that this is a very emotive issue so I'll ignore the insults. At no point did I suggest going to sleep. I specifically stated a public enquiry should be held so that the most amount of information could be obtained. Do you really want to know what happened there or do you just want something to direct your anger at, because that's all a criminal trial would accomplish.

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I understand that this is a very emotive issue so I'll ignore the insults. At no point did I suggest going to sleep. I specifically stated a public enquiry should be held so that the most amount of information could be obtained. Do you really want to know what happened there or do you just want something to direct your anger at, because that's all a criminal trial would accomplish.

I did not insult anyone. Yeah,by all means lets have an inquiry. But maybe secure the bloody scene first so we can have a well founded inquiry??

The Garda are deeply complicit in this.

We want some simple basic police work carried out here.

Thats what they are there for.

If you fail to see this then its yet another reason that I have no confidence in our national police force.

Its black and white. What would happen in the exact same situation in the UK?

and by the way, Id be slammed in the clink if a load of bodies were found in my garden until it was established what had happened.

Why is this different?

Little CuChulainn

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you not at least think that Gardai should be present at the site? There are scores of reporters there from all over the world and it looks terrible that our police force don't appear to be bothered enough to show up.

Whatever about any future investigation, is it not still a potential crime scene? The fact that a tabloid has hired a company to do radar searches before Gardai have even examined the area is quite simply shameful.

What potential crime though? A crime scene.

Resonator75 wrote: »

I did not insult anyone. Yeah,by all means lets have an inquiry. But maybe secure the bloody scene first so we can have a well founded inquiry??

The Garda are deeply complicit in this.

We want some simple basic police work carried out here.

Thats what they are there for.

If you fail to see this then its yet another reason that I have no confidence in our national police force.

Its black and white. What would happen in the exact same situation in the UK?

and by the way, Id be slammed in the clink if a load of bodies were found in my garden until it was established what had happened.

Why is this different?

It's different because it was never hidden. Death certs were issued and the bodies were buried in this makeshift graveyard. While it may have been callous, it was not illegal.

Let me ask you this. What evidence do you think would be recovered at the site? Do you think the bodies should all be dug up?

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What potential crime though? A crime scene.



It's different because it was never hidden. Death certs were issued and the bodies were buried in this makeshift graveyard. While it may have been callous, it was not illegal.

Let me ask you this. What evidence do you think would be recovered at the site? Do you think the bodies should all be dug up?

We need to establish exactly what happened here, and YES absolutely they should be dug up , accounted for and given a popper burial.
Their memory deserves that from the state at the very least.

would you like your kin to be dumped in a $hit tank?

Little CuChulainn

Resonator75 wrote: »

We need to establish exactly what happened here, and YES absolutely they should be dug up , accounted for and given a popper burial.
Their memory deserves that from the state at the very least.

would you like your kin to be dumped in a $hit tank?

My kin? Who do you think sent them to those places in the first place?

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

My kin? Who do you think sent them to those places in the first place?

You know what I mean. You don't address my points and keep trying to deflect.

Ive made my points clearly. I think decency is on my side.

drumswan

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's different because it was never hidden. Death certs were issued and the bodies were buried in this makeshift graveyard. While it may have been callous, it was not illegal.

You cant just bury dead bodies wherever you like in this country. If bodies were found in my garden would the Gardai just ignore it?

Little CuChulainn

Resonator75 wrote: »

You know what I mean. You don't address my points and keep trying to deflect.

Ive made my points clearly. I think decency is on my side.

Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene. I've not denied it needs to be investigated, I'm merely saying it shouldn't be a criminal investigation.

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene. I've not denied it needs to be investigated, I'm merely saying it shouldn't be a criminal investigation.

Dont condescend me.

My posts are emotive because our police force is determined to do nothing at a majorly dodgy , possibly criminal , scene while the world looks on.

Damn right Im emotional, you will just defend anything and every thing to protect the status quo.

Ill make it clear, for the SECOND time-

1. Investigate the scene

2. If evidence of wrong doing is found , proceed with a criminal investigation, based of facts gathered.

3. Hold an independat public inquiry.

The Garda want to avoid steps 1 & 2 because of possible blowback from their inaction/enabling at the time.



This is policing 101.


What would happen in the UK in this situation? You have not answered.

Ill answer you, they are professional modern force, they woyd investigate the scene before pre-ordaining the outcome as you are determined to do.


Pathetic.

drumswan

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene.

Can you explain how dead bodies, some less than 50 years old, in an unsanctioned, unmarked location, do not warrant investigation?

mufflets2

this is a disgrace
There is obviously some reason why the Garda have not secured a potential crime scene for proper investigation and the reason cannot be a good one,

I thought that the guards would have learned some lessons from recent episodes

I feel sorry for genuine and hard working gardai whom I am sure are as puzzled as I am at what appears to be an attempt to brush this under the mat.

Dan_Solo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene. I've not denied it needs to be investigated, I'm merely saying it shouldn't be a criminal investigation.

Are you claiming it's Garda policy not to investigate human remains in unmarked graves? I must remember that one for later.
Have the Gardai established the age of these remains?

Little CuChulainn

Resonator75 wrote: »

Dont condescend me.

My posts are emotive because our police force is determined to do nothing at a majorly dodgy , possibly criminal , scene while the world looks on.

Damn right Im emotional, you will just defend anything and every thing to protect the status quo.

Like I said, you are not thinking things through logically because you are letting the emotional impact of the situation overwhelm you. I'm not exactly sure what status quo you think I'm defending.

Resonator75 wrote: »

Ill make it clear, for the SECOND time-

1. Investigate the scene

2. If evidence of wrong doing is found , proceed with a criminal investigation, based of facts gathered.

3. Hold an independat public inquiry.

The Garda want to avoid steps 1 & 2 because of possible blowback from their inaction/enabling at the time.

This is policing 101.

Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened? There is no blowback to worry about.

Resonator75 wrote: »

Pathetic.

And again with the insults.

Resonator75

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Like I said, you are not thinking things through logically because you are letting the emotional impact of the situation overwhelm you. I'm not exactly sure what status quo you think I'm defending.



Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened? There is no blowback to worry about.




And again with the insults.

Well your a might condescending. I am being logical, you are the illogical one here.

I am saying the Garda inaction is pathetic, lets not act precious here and imply im calling you personally pathetic. I know how to remain unbanned.

Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened? There is no blowback to worry about.

Not the point , the state protects itself at all costs, laundries, illegal vaccinations, abuse by the church, Alan Shatter, on and on and on..



Care to address post #39 and post #41 before you have another pop at me?

drumswan

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Like I said, you are not thinking things through logically because you are letting the emotional impact of the situation overwhelm you. I'm not exactly sure what status quo you think I'm defending.

Boucher-hayes has reported to the Gardai that there are childrens bodies illegally dumped in a location in Tuam. They first confused the site with another famine era site and now are saying nothing. Someone must be instructing Tuam Gardai not to investigate, no?

Dan_Solo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened?

Nobody asked if there was because it is irrelevant.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no blowback to worry about.

If it turns out that Gardai were ignoring abuse of 100s of children 50 years ago, do you think this will have no effect whatsoever on the public perception of the Gardai?

Jimmy Garlic

Resonator75 wrote: »

Yeah, lots of rinky-dink pot busts to be carried out this weekend in Tuam.

Good to see they got their priorities in order.

Pot is the new poteen. I remember seeing fat guards on TV back in the 80s breaking up mash barrels. They are enforcers and revenue collectors for the state, not protectors of the people.

Little CuChulainn

drumswan wrote: »

Can you explain how dead bodies, some less than 50 years old, in an unsanctioned, unmarked location, do not warrant investigation?

Never said they didn't require investigation. I've said a number of times that a public enquiry should be held. I don;t believe the Gardaí should investigate it because I don't think it's a criminal matter.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are you claiming it's Garda policy not to investigate human remains in unmarked graves? I must remember that one for later.
Have the Gardai established the age of these remains?

I'm saying it's not worth digging up a graveyard without cause to think there is a crime to investigate.

Resonator75 wrote: »

Well your a might condescending. I am being logical, you are the illogical one here.

You're logic is influenced by your emotional reaction. You want the bodies dug up to be identified and reburied. Do you actually think any evidence would be gleaned from them?

Resonator75 wrote: »

I am saying the Garda inaction is pathetic, lets not act precious here and imply im calling you personally pathetic. I know how to remain unbanned.

I know what you meant.

Resonator75 wrote: »

Not the point , the state protects itself at all costs, laundries, illegal vaccinations, abuse by the church, Alan Shatter, on and on and on

The State is run by people in the present. I don't think the current government has shown any indication of protecting the church.

drumswan wrote: »

Boucher-hayes has reported to the Gardai that there are childrens bodies illegally dumped in a location in Tuam. They first confused the site with another famine era site and now are saying nothing. Someone must be instructing Tuam Gardai not to investigate, no?

Has anyone denied they are there? What particular aspect do you think requires Garda investigation? What evidential value could there be in sealing off the area and digging up the bodies?

Little CuChulainn

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nobody asked if there was because it is irrelevant.
If it turns out that Gardai were ignoring abuse of 100s of children 50 years ago, do you think this will have no effect whatsoever on the public perception of the Gardai?

Everyone was ignoring the abuses. Why would the Gardaí be singled out?

Dan_Solo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Everyone was ignoring the abuses. Why would the Gardaí be singles out?

Why did you assume the Gardai would be singled out?
Are you claiming they should be for some reason? I never claimed that.

Little CuChulainn

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why did you assume the Gardai would be singled out?

Because you specifically stated

Dan_Solo wrote: »

public perception of the Gardai?

If you want to play word games I suggest you try After Hours.

Dan_Solo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You're logic is influenced by your emotional reaction. You want the bodies dug up to be identified and reburied. Do you actually think any evidence would be gleaned from them?

Do the Gardai ever need to actually investigate anything or do they all just decide immediately whether there's evidence of criminal activity or not like you are demanding here?