Ultra Discussion Thread

Enduro · 24-03-2016 6:19pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

There are quite a few 100 mile races on the continent, sometimes billed as 160km

Measured precisely to 100 miles with a jones counter, or literally 160km (cause its a big difference, as you know)?

TFBubendorfer · 25-03-2016 7:28am

Enduro wrote: »

Measured precisely to 100 miles with a jones counter, or literally 160km (cause its a big difference, as you know)?

The trail races aren't going to be measured by Jones counter I'm sure, as for the road races I guess it entirely depends on the RD of each race.

You're missing the point here. I wasn't going to argue if the 100 mile races in Europe are all correctly measured. I was merely pointing out that the Italians coming over may well have experience in 100 milers already.

RacoonQueen · 25-03-2016 9:10am

They got a cracking day for it anyway (so far)

DubOnHoliday · 25-03-2016 10:02am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

They got a cracking day for it anyway (so far)

What time does it start at?

RacoonQueen · 25-03-2016 10:10am

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

What time does it start at?

6pm for the 100mile, sometime tomorrow for the 50, I think

DubOnHoliday · 25-03-2016 10:17am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

6pm for the 100mile, sometime tomorrow for the 50, I think

Thanks, local man Liam Vines is doing it, I'll try head up to support! I was up training at the lake last night, the trail is in good condition.

Enduro · 25-03-2016 10:22am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

The trail races aren't going to be measured by Jones counter I'm sure, as for the road races I guess it entirely depends on the RD of each race.

You're missing the point here. I wasn't going to argue if the 100 mile races in Europe are all correctly measured. I was merely pointing out that the Italians coming over may well have experience in 100 milers already.

Ah yeah, as I see what you mean.

I was referring to actual measured 100 mile races, where the course is measured so that a 100 mile time could be taken for record purposes etc.

Agreed there are races that are "in or around" 100 miles (like UTMB), but you wouldn't be able to count those for official 100 mile records.

I'd still be interested if you know of many road/track races (very different to off road) that advertise themselves as 100 miles / 160km. Plenty in the imperial countries of USA and UK, and one or two imperial hold-outs here, but my impression is it just isn't on the radar beyond those. I'm open to correction!

Enduro · 25-03-2016 10:25am

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

Thanks, local man Liam Vines is doing it, I'll try head up to support! I was up training at the lake last night, the trail is in good condition.

Good man Liam! He's down as an entry for the Maurice Mullins Ultra as well. Now that's ambition

TFBubendorfer · 25-03-2016 11:29am

Enduro wrote: »

I'd still be interested if you know of many road/track races (very different to off road) that advertise themselves as 100 miles / 160km.

That Berlin Wall race springs to mind. I've overheard a few German Spartathlon runners talk about it and got the impression they do count it for record purposes. I have no idea if it's certified though, and a quick check of their website didn't reveal the answer either.

http://100meilen.de/en/

DubOnHoliday · 25-03-2016 10:53pm

A lot of wind to contend with tonight, hope it clears up!

RacoonQueen · 25-03-2016 11:59pm

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

A lot of wind to contend with tonight, hope it clears up!

Chilly enough too. Though, they didn't sign up thinking it'd be easy.

UM1 · 26-03-2016 1:42am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Chilly enough too. Though, they didn't sign up thinking it'd be easy.

Fockin freezin..though quite warm beside the fire if u drop out

UM1 · 26-03-2016 1:11pm

Artifunkin just about to take the win

Murph_D · 27-03-2016 7:42pm

Are there results anywhere for the Vartry race?

Ed Mc Groarty · 27-03-2016 11:09pm

Murph_D wrote: »

Are there results anywhere for the Vartry race?

http://www.rawultra.com/

Enduro · 29-03-2016 4:34pm

What a weekend of ultrarunning.

Firstly, a big well done to Artiefufkin. Looks like your 2016 targets are being exceeded at this point! I'm guessing that was your first 100 miler... talk about starting with a bang!

Also great to see some real classy performance in the Maurice Mullins Ultra. A super win from Eoin Lennon, and a slew of new young talent emerging at the top of the field. Great to see. It looks like trail ultras are Ireland's healthiest ultra discipline. It should be an good team heading to the worlds in Portugal later this year.

And even with two big ultra races running at the same time in different parts of Wicklow, the biggest ultra talents in the county at the time were at neither, but were doing recces for the Wicklow round. There's a good possibility of the Wiclow Round record being smashed this year (It's a relatively weak record anyway).

Finally, it looks like we have a new poster here who is apparently going to be the World 24 hour running champion next year. Will he reveal himself...

Djoucer · 29-03-2016 5:28pm

Enduro wrote: »

And even with two big ultra races running at the same time in different parts of Wicklow, the biggest ultra talents in the county at the time were at neither, but were doing recces for the Wicklow round. There's a good possibility of the Wiclow Round record being smashed this year (It's a relatively weak record anyway).

Looks like Scott Jurek and Rickey Gates will be attempting the Round this week. They’ve been recceeing the course all weekend.

https://twitter.com/rickeygates/status/714220467423473665

Although they're down in the Comeragh mountains now.

https://twitter.com/ScottJurek/status/714797119505362945

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDeauGCSlL_/?hl=en
Great weekend. Did the Maurice Mullins ultra. Tricky conditions around Djouce with a cold wind blowing. Seems to have affected a lot of people, noticed far more people struggling compared to last year.

_Tombstone_ · 29-03-2016 5:50pm

Nice scenery in that second pic.

ArtieFufkin · 30-03-2016 2:11pm

They're in Kerry now and have been joined by Dakota Jones.

ArtieFufkin · 30-03-2016 2:16pm

Enduro wrote: »

What a weekend of ultrarunning.

Firstly, a big well done to Artiefufkin. Looks like your 2016 targets are being exceeded at this point! I'm guessing that was your first 100 miler... talk about starting with a bang!

Thanks Enduro! Yes, it was my first but not my last. Believe it not I wasn't targeting even getting top 3. I only wanted to finish. With hindsight I probably went a bit too fast for the first 50 miles. The second 50 were just a case of bringing it on home at a steady pace.

I think I learned more about ultra running in that one race than I have over the last two years (my first ultra was in 2014).

TFBubendorfer · 30-03-2016 4:26pm

ArtieFufkin wrote: »

(my first ultra was in 2014).

I remember

You went out a bit too fast in that one as well and got caught by some old fogie very late.

Congratulations! Massive result!!

Enduro · 30-03-2016 5:24pm

ArtieFufkin wrote: »

Thanks Enduro! Yes, it was my first but not my last. Believe it not I wasn't targeting even getting top 3. I only wanted to finish. With hindsight I probably went a bit too fast for the first 50 miles. The second 50 were just a case of bringing it on home at a steady pace.

I think I learned more about ultra running in that one race than I have over the last two years (my first ultra was in 2014).

Super stuff! That conservative mental approach was certainly the right one for your first go at the distance. Experience is so so valuable in ultrarunning. That's why you should always stick in a race, even when things are going badly, unless you have medical reasons to retire! It's always good to treat the first go at any event as a "rangefinder" to gain the valuable experience that will enable you to have a more aggressive go at the second one.

I hope you've signed up for, or will sign up for, a 24 hour race this year. It looks like 200km would be a very realistic target for you.

Stablemaster · 30-03-2016 5:42pm

24 hr world championships Belfast 2017 wud b a gud place to debut

Enduro · 30-03-2016 5:52pm

Stablemaster wrote: »

24 hr world championships Belfast 2017 wud b a gud place to debut

No it wouldn't. He has done the training, and has the ability. The 24 hours in Belfast this year would be the perfect place to debut if it fits his schedule.

Plus there's always the chance that he could run well enough to qualify to be in the actual world champs rather than the open race come 2017.

Stablemaster · 30-03-2016 6:30pm

If u win the open race and beat all people in championship in 2017 are u world champion?

Enduro · 30-03-2016 6:36pm

Stablemaster wrote: »

If u win the open race and beat all people in championship in 2017 are u world champion?

No

ArtieFufkin · 30-03-2016 11:36pm

I'd love to do the Belfast 24 but my brother inconsiderately booked his wedding that weekend

ArtieFufkin · 30-03-2016 11:38pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I remember You went out a bit too fast in that one as well and got caught by some old fogie very late.

Congratulations! Massive result!!

Thanks! You're not so old. In fact I think there's only a year or two between us.

Enduro · 31-03-2016 9:13am

ArtieFufkin wrote: »

I'd love to do the Belfast 24 but my brother inconsiderately booked his wedding that weekend

How extremely inconsiderate of him

I think there is another one in Kerry later in the year. First time running of that event. And of course loads of them abroad as well!

Enduro · 31-03-2016 9:27am

Stablemaster wrote: »

If u win the open race and beat all people in championship in 2017 are u world champion?

Just expand on my previous answer a little...

Just like you can only be the olympic 100 meters champions if you win the 100 meters final at the olympics, to be the world 24 hour champion you have to win the world championship race. The open race is a seperate race that happens to run on the same day at the same time (I presume it will anyway). The open race is simply a support race which the organisers put on to allow more people to experience the event. No more than that.

More often than not there is no open race run in parallel with the world champs. And there has never been a case of anyone coming within an ass's roar of a podium worthy finish in the open race, never mind beating the champion's distance.

Now if you're good enough to run 270km+ next year to win the world champs then the good news is that it is going to be trivially easy to get into the world champs. All you have to do is turn up to a properly certified 24 hour race and run 220km, which is the standard required to get onto the Irish team (presuming you're male). Obviously for a 270km+ runner this will be no more than a easy training run for you.

If you turn up to this year's Belfast race and run your qualifier there you also get the advantage of running on the championship course in championship conditions (It's the Irish champs). Again, being a 270km+ runner, it should be trivial enough to break the Irish record while you're there to make sure of qualifying ahead of all the current Irish team.

average_runner · 31-03-2016 10:15am

Enduro wrote: »

Just expand on my previous answer a little...

Just like you can only be the olympic 100 meters champions if you win the 100 meters final at the olympics, to be the world 24 hour champion you have to win the world championship race. The open race is a seperate race that happens to run on the same day at the same time (I presume it will anyway). The open race is simply a support race which the organisers put on to allow more people to experience the event. No more than that.

More often than not there is no open race run in parallel with the world champs. And there has never been a case of anyone coming within an ass's roar of a podium worthy finish in the open race, never mind beating the champion's distance.

Now if you're good enough to run 270km+ next year to win the world champs then the good news is that it is going to be trivially easy to get into the world champs. All you have to do is turn up to a properly certified 24 hour race and run 220km, which is the standard required to get onto the Irish team (presuming you're male). Obviously for a 270km+ runner this will be no more than a easy training run for you.

If you turn up to this year's Belfast race and run your qualifier there you also get the advantage of running on the championship course in championship conditions (It's the Irish champs). Again, being a 270km+ runner, it should be trivial enough to break the Irish record while you're there to make sure of qualifying ahead of all the current Irish team.

You make it sound so easy, just 220km:D

Stablemaster · 31-03-2016 11:34am

Enduro wrote: »

Just expand on my previous answer a little...

Just like you can only be the olympic 100 meters champions if you win the 100 meters final at the olympics, to be the world 24 hour champion you have to win the world championship race. The open race is a seperate race that happens to run on the same day at the same time (I presume it will anyway). The open race is simply a support race which the organisers put on to allow more people to experience the event. No more than that.

More often than not there is no open race run in parallel with the world champs. And there has never been a case of anyone coming within an ass's roar of a podium worthy finish in the open race, never mind beating the champion's distance.

Now if you're good enough to run 270km+ next year to win the world champs then the good news is that it is going to be trivially easy to get into the world champs. All you have to do is turn up to a properly certified 24 hour race and run 220km, which is the standard required to get onto the Irish team (presuming you're male). Obviously for a 270km+ runner this will be no more than a easy training run for you.

If you turn up to this year's Belfast race and run your qualifier there you also get the advantage of running on the championship course in championship conditions (It's the Irish champs). Again, being a 270km+ runner, it should be trivial enough to break the Irish record while you're there to make sure of qualifying ahead of all the current Irish team.

If I ran world record time there would it be recognised?

Enduro · 31-03-2016 11:55am

Stablemaster wrote: »

If I ran world record time there would it be recognised?

Yup, it would. 305km is your target there.

Stablemaster · 31-03-2016 12:11pm

Why is the Qualification for the World 24hr so poor in comparison to other events? I've just worked out that the qualifying mark of 220km is 38.6% less than the WR of 305km. If we were to transfer that to other events it would be the equivalent of a 13.3 second 100m or a 2:50 Marathon by my calculations.

Enduro · 31-03-2016 12:41pm

Stablemaster wrote: »

Why is the Qualification for the World 24hr so poor in comparison to other events? I've just worked out that the qualifying mark of 220km is 38.6% less than the WR of 305km. If we were to transfer that to other events it would be the equivalent of a 13.3 second 100m or a 2:50 Marathon by my calculations.

That's the qualification to be considered to be picked for the Irish team, not for the WC itself. It's set by AAI (inherited from Ultrarunning Ireland). It was set at that mark as it's the IAU's B standard for grant funding of athlete participation in championship events (IAU being the international governing body for ultrarunning). National ultrarunning governing bodies are free to set their own criteria for picking teams. The UK standard is 239km AFAIK, for example. They have a much bigger pool to choose from though, lucky them!

To get into the WC you just need to be sent by your NGB.

It would also help if you dug in a bit more to understand why the WR of 305km is such an amazing distance. Yiannis Kouros had the exceptionalism of Bob Beamon and the consistancy of Ed Moses. Look at the gap to the next best distance by someone other than Yiannis. Re-run you're calcs on the sencond best athletes and see how it looks.

RacoonQueen · 31-03-2016 3:38pm

What's the distance for women over 24 hours? Presume it's somewhat less?

Ed Mc Groarty · 31-03-2016 3:46pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

What's the distance for women over 24 hours? Presume it's somewhat less?

200km

Ron Gomall · 31-03-2016 11:12pm

Enduro wrote: »

That's the qualification to be considered to be picked for the Irish team, not for the WC itself. It's set by AAI (inherited from Ultrarunning Ireland). It was set at that mark as it's the IAU's B standard for grant funding of athlete participation in championship events (IAU being the international governing body for ultrarunning). National ultrarunning governing bodies are free to set their own criteria for picking teams. The UK standard is 239km AFAIK, for example. They have a much bigger pool to choose from though, lucky them!

To get into the WC you just need to be sent by your NGB.

It would also help if you dug in a bit more to understand why the WR of 305km is such an amazing distance. Yiannis Kouros had the exceptionalism of Bob Beamon and the consistancy of Ed Moses. Look at the gap to the next best distance by someone other than Yiannis. Re-run you're calcs on the sencond best athletes and see how it looks.

That 305 kms is amazing, roughly 13kph for 23.5hours, am allowing time for answering the call of nature, eating and drinking. So roughly 4.40/km pace for 23.5hours straight , shakes head and tries to consider that. Have any Kenyans or Ethiopians competed at 12 or 24 hour events yet ?

Ed Mc Groarty · 01-04-2016 6:55am

Myself and Yiannis share birthdays.......ok carry on.

Enduro · 01-04-2016 9:50am

Ed Mc Groarty wrote: »

200km

Which is picked for the same reason as the male standard... the IAU's "B" standard for athlete funding.

Enduro · 01-04-2016 10:08am

Ron Gomall wrote: »

That 305 kms is amazing, roughly 13kph for 23.5hours, am allowing time for answering the call of nature, eating and drinking. So roughly 4.40/km pace for 23.5hours straight , shakes head and tries to consider that. Have any Kenyans or Ethiopians competed at 12 or 24 hour events yet ?

It's amazing alright. A look at a (slightly out of date) all time best list of 24 hour performances really puts in in content.

I'm not aware of any Kenyans or Ethiopians that have competed at 12 or 24 hours. Expecting them to be good at 24 hour running because they're good marathoners would be like expecting Jamacans to be good marathoners because they are good sprinters though.

I make a divide between "speed" ultras and "endurance" ultras, where speed ultras are the ones where marathons style training and ability is the key. Once you cross to endurance ultras your in a different world. A bit like the cross-over from sprinting to middle distance. I have read that Yiannis has a similar opinion (He doesn't think that 100kms is a proper ultra apparently!). I reckon the Kenyans and Ethopians you're thinking of would be "speed" ultra types, and wouldn't be well suited to edurance ultras.

A Kenyan team did take part in the commonwealth utra trail running championships in North Wales a few years ago. Makes for interesting viewing. Their performance was predictable enough for someone who understands ultras, but would probably be quite surprising for anyone who thinks Kenyans are inevitably going to win. Just found the coverage... the ultra trail is towards the end

ArtieFufkin · 01-04-2016 3:40pm

Enduro wrote: »

I make a divide between "speed" ultras and "endurance" ultras, where speed ultras are the ones where marathons style training and ability is the key. Once you cross to endurance ultras your in a different world.

Very good point. I was just making the same comparison this morning when thinking about how you train for a 100mile vs a 39mile race.

RacoonQueen · 01-04-2016 3:54pm

Enduro wrote: »

Which is picked for the same reason as the male standard... the IAU's "B" standard for athlete funding.

I've never done 24 hour race but 200km seems very soft. That is 7 min kilometres!!!

TFBubendorfer · 01-04-2016 4:00pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I've never done 24 hour race but 200km seems very soft. That is 7 min kilometres!!!

Then go for it. If you find it easy you'll be a brilliant addition to the Irish team!

Enduro · 01-04-2016 4:01pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I've never done 24 hour race but 200km seems very soft. That is 7 min kilometres!!!

Of course it is! Off you go and show us some real speed

Enduro · 01-04-2016 4:01pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Then go for it. If you find it easy you'll be a brilliant addition to the Irish team!

Snap!

Stablemaster · 01-04-2016 5:07pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I've never done 24 hour race but 200km seems very soft. That is 7 min kilometres!!!

I have not run one either but would be happy to let you have a look at programme I'm following

Enduro · 01-04-2016 5:16pm

Stablemaster wrote: »

I have not run one either but would be happy to let you have a look at programme I'm following

Can we all have a look? (Are you training for Belfast this year?)

BeepBeep67 · 01-04-2016 5:18pm

Enduro wrote: »

It's amazing alright. A look at a (slightly out of date) all time best list of 24 hour performances really puts in in content.

So I know this list is 3 years old and even if you exclude Yiannis as an outlier, it looks like performances have stagnated and there's very few from 2010 onwards making it onto that list, about 6 in the first 3 pages.
I would have thought through a combination of advances in popularity, science, technology and nutrition that performances in general would be improving.
If you look at the all time list for marathons there's only 4 in the top 20 that haven't been achieved this decade: http://www.marathonguide.com/history/records/alltimelist.cfm?Gen=M

Why do you think that is?

Enduro · 01-04-2016 5:38pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

So I know this list is 3 years old and even if you exclude Yiannis as an outlier, it looks like performances have stagnated and there's very few from 2010 onwards making it onto that list, about 6 in the first 3 pages.
I would have thought through a combination of advances in popularity, science, technology and nutrition that performances in general would be improving.
If you look at the all time list for marathons there's only 4 in the top 20 that haven't been achieved this decade: http://www.marathonguide.com/history/records/alltimelist.cfm?Gen=M

Why do you think that is?

You can fill in the Gap using DUV. Have a look here for the most recent best, with a nice graph at the top (which very much backs up your conclusion on trends). Digging in from here lets you discover all sorts of stats.

So if nothing else, excluding Yiannis the best performance ever was 2014, which isn't as bad as the out of date page shows.

The position 100 graph shows roughly a steady upward movement. This to me does reflect what I've seen at the world championships over the last decade or so, which is that the general standard is definitely rising. It's getting much harder to get into the top 20 or top 10 in the WC. That's probably a reflection of increasing participation in general, I would guess. So popularity is having an impact... it just doesn't seem to be pushing up the very top.

IMHO very little of the advances in science and nutrition that would apply to sub-ultra applies to endurance ultras. (Similarly to the way that very little of the advances in science and nutrtion WRT marathons would apply to sprinters... different disciplines, different approaches required). That's one of the things I personally like about endurance ultras. The undiscovered country! The ability to self analyse and learn can be much more rewarding because the science is so thin. Of course it is realtively difficult (and expensive presumably) to conduct good scienetific experiments on ultra running performance, given the timespans involved.

There seems to be a huge variety of training methodolgies in use, even amongst the top lads, so you wouldn't see anything near the uniformity of what you'd get with top marathoners. So there is no real orthodoxy which everyone is building on.

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