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Where to meet guys if you're not into the scene?
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That, and the fact that you continue to believe in and repeat the same naive/ignorant mis-characterisations about gay people and the gay community, and refuse to acknowledge the realities of the LGBT community which the rest of us all see and live.
How have I mis-characterised gay people?You don't seem to be willing to do anything about your situation, yet expect us to provide you with a solution to your problem.
Well originally I was asking for advice, but now I realise it was really just me venting my frustration rather than seeking advice.And you refuse to acknowledge that maybe the problem could be with you, and your attitudes and insecurities, rather than being the gay scenes for being too gay, or life for dealing you a bum hand.
I don't know what insecurities you are talking about. If it's me not showing my face on dating websites, well as I've mentioned before, it's a career thing.Well grounded guys who want something real and meaningful tend to look for guys who have their **** together. I generally presume a guy who isn't willing to show his face and just interact normally doesn't have his **** together.
Actually, I think quite the opposite. Any of the decent guys I have met from these websites don't have a face pic on their profile. In fact, if I see someone with a face pic I would be much less likely to talk to them! I know I'll be in for a barrage of criticism now.
I've found most of the guys with face pics are quite open with their sexuality, which is why they show their face, but are also pretty camp. I don't know if it was the luck of the draw, or if it is generally like that, but that's how I perceived it.
Meanwhile, guys that don't have a face pic up are mostly masculine, somewhat closeted guys. They are in the same position as me and I can relate to them.0 -
I'm saying this with hind sight but it's really pretty arrogant almost to assume that everyone that goes to gay bars is camp and not masculine like you. I used to think that but I don't anymore, camp people are so obvious they are going to stand out more but behind that there is most likely many non camp men if that is what your are looking for.
I think the pity is that some gay men end up going to gay bars alone because they've no gay friends, I hope you take some steps to change that by taking up advise given here so that you maybe could make a few gay friends you enjoying going out with and maybe the whole gay scene won't seem so awful then. Never know you might even meet someone as well as having a good night out.
It's up to you. Will seem like effort at first. Most people will tell you it's worth it though.0 -
How have I mis-characterised gay people?Actually, I think quite the opposite. Any of the decent guys I have met from these websites don't have a face pic on their profile. In fact, if I see someone with a face pic I would be much less likely to talk to them!I've found most of the guys with face pics are quite open with their sexuality, which is why they show their face, but are also pretty camp.The advice from previous posts that I have tried is going to the gay bars, which I didn't like. I guess I could try clubs and societies, but to be honest it is all very "fruity", no offence. I mean with a name like "Wet and Wild", seriously?I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.
Hmm, I wonder how you have... With that attitude, I wouldn't be in any rush to date you, sorry. Just giving you the 'other side' here.
So apparently being out is somehow unattractive, because obviously they must be camp, 'fruity' and undesirable, not anything to do that they've gotten over their hangups. Right. Yeah. Maybe I need to lift boulders or something. That's totally masc, right guys?
I used to talk to someone with a similar sort of attitude and he was insufferable. Complained non stop about nobody being out there and dismissing any opportunity to get to know people and placing most guys he didn't even talk to in boxes depending on how they looked. Why bother if you're refusing to examine yourself? What are the bets you tried one gay bar and left after about 5 minutes and decided they were all like that? This whole thread makes me quite angry. It's one thing having some obstacles in finding your identity. It's another to consistently label other people and dismiss everything you're given.0 -
Also. I just had a look back at some of your previous posts, no idea why you have not tried the meet ups if you have not before. If your not in you can't win. The thought of going to a gay bar used to scare the bejaysus out of me now I don't bat an eyelid going. I don't know where I would be with the coming out process right now without the help of them.0
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Well originally I was asking for advice, but now I realise it was really just me venting my frustration
That sounds to me like an easy way for you to opt out of listening to any of the responses.
If you're not willing to listen to any of us, and you are continuously looking for excuses to stay inside your comfort zone, what exactly do you expect?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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How have I mis-characterised gay people?
Well originally I was asking for advice, but now I realise it was really just me venting my frustration rather than seeking advice.
I don't know what insecurities you are talking about. If it's me not showing my face on dating websites, well as I've mentioned before, it's a career thing.
Actually, I think quite the opposite. Any of the decent guys I have met from these websites don't have a face pic on their profile. In fact, if I see someone with a face pic I would be much less likely to talk to them! I know I'll be in for a barrage of criticism now.
I've found most of the guys with face pics are quite open with their sexuality, which is why they show their face, but are also pretty camp. I don't know if it was the luck of the draw, or if it is generally like that, but that's how I perceived it.
Meanwhile, guys that don't have a face pic up are mostly masculine, somewhat closeted guys. They are in the same position as me and I can relate to them.
You are repeatedly doing mischaracterising the community - whether it be your comments on the supposed campiness of the clientele of gay bars, the fruitiness of clubs and societies, or your views on guys who are open with their sexuality.
I assure I have never once in my life being called camp or fruity, and yet I have formed part of every one of those scenes at various points (gay bars, clubs and societies and a confident and secure gay men who isn't afraid to show his face or identify as such).
We have all experienced the same bars, clubs, societies you have, used the same apps, met the same types of people. We know your experiences aren't true to ours, so either the universe aligned to give you a truly misrepresentative view of each of these things, or else the issue is your perception.
As for your insecurities, your posts all scream insecure gay man who hasn't accepted his sexuality - regardless of what he might tell himself.
You seem to actively dislike "camp" guys (there's a preference and then there's the guys who avoid like the plague), fear or are uncomfortable associating with anything "camp", "fruity" or just openly gay and seem to be uncomfortable with gay guys who are comfortable with their sexuality and aren't afraid who knows it. And you seem to have a crippling fear of being outed or being seen as gay (crippling in that instead of living life you are stuck in the same rut and doing nothing to change it).
All that screams to me somebody who still really isn't comfortable or accepting of their sexuality. As I said most of us went through it, so I know the signs well.
The discomfort with "camp" and "fruitiness" is usually a fear of guilt by association - that when people realise your gay that's how you will be seen and so you push hard against it. It reminds you that you are different and you will always be different no matter how hard you pretend otherwise.
And closeted guys are preferable for guys in that boat because there is less chance of them outing you. They are in the same boat. And they will put just as much energy in as you in denying their gay, masking anything that will give them away to others and remind you of what you both are, and what you're being together really is.
With openly gay guys (regardless of camp or not) there are too many reminders that they are gay, and too many associated risks. And they won't be as willing to hide and sneak around, and so will challenge the closeted bubble you live in and put you in awkward positions.
I use "you" in the general sense above, and not refer to you OP specifically. I have never met you so I can't say the above necessarily applies to you. But certainly from here it seems like it very will could.
The alternative is (and I don't mean this to be insulting or get personal) that you just have a really ****ty and entitled outlook on life. You have extremely specific preferences in terms of friends and relationships and won't even make any effort to interact with people or scenes that don't fit them, you are very self entitled and expect life to be on your terms and don't believe you should have to make any compromises for your wants and needs to become attainable, you are judgmental and superficial and refuse to reconsider your first impressions of people or places and get to really know them, and you are a bit of a prude.
Again, I don't say any of that to be critical, mean or insulting. I mean it as constructive criticism.
Either way, it's something you should take on board - to either work on the insecurities or adjust your attitude to life.0 -
I'm saying this with hind sight but it's really pretty arrogant almost to assume that everyone that goes to gay bars is camp and not masculine like you.
Well it's pretty ignorant for you to assume that I believe that. I didn't say everyone is camp and not masculine.Also. I just had a look back at some of your previous posts, no idea why you have not tried the meet ups if you have not before.
Well seeing as how I am being received here, I don't think I'd be too welcome!Joeytheparrot wrote: »That sounds to me like an easy way for you to opt out of listening to any of the responses.
If you're not willing to listen to any of us, and you are continuously looking for excuses to stay inside your comfort zone, what exactly do you expect?
I have no expectations.You are repeatedly doing mischaracterising the community - whether it be your comments on the supposed campiness of the clientele of gay bars, the fruitiness of clubs and societies, or your views on guys who are open with their sexuality.
I assure I have never once in my life being called camp or fruity, and yet I have formed part of every one of those scenes at various points (gay bars, clubs and societies and a confident and secure gay men who isn't afraid to show his face or identify as such).
We have all experienced the same bars, clubs, societies you have, used the same apps, met the same types of people. We know your experiences aren't true to ours, so either the universe aligned to give you a truly misrepresentative view of each of these things, or else the issue is your perception.
As for your insecurities, your posts all scream insecure gay man who hasn't accepted his sexuality - regardless of what he might tell himself.
You seem to actively dislike "camp" guys (there's a preference and then there's the guys who avoid like the plague), fear or are uncomfortable associating with anything "camp", "fruity" or just openly gay and seem to be uncomfortable with gay guys who are comfortable with their sexuality and aren't afraid who knows it. And you seem to have a crippling fear of being outed or being seen as gay (crippling in that instead of living life you are stuck in the same rut and doing nothing to change it).
All that screams to me somebody who still really isn't comfortable or accepting of their sexuality. As I said most of us went through it, so I know the signs well.
The discomfort with "camp" and "fruitiness" is usually a fear of guilt by association - that when people realise your gay that's how you will be seen and so you push hard against it. It reminds you that you are different and you will always be different no matter how hard you pretend otherwise.
I will be honest and say I don't like being associated with the campness of the gay community. It's synonymous with gay culture. Look at 99% of references to it in media. It's all limp wristed, pink wearing sex mad men. I know that isn't how it is in reality, but that's the message the public is receiving.
You're even promoting it yourselves with the ridiculous Gay Pride Parade. It's not helping anyone. You're trying to show we're normal like everyone else by (some people) parading around in S&M gear? Can you blame me for not wanting to be associated with it? It's fine if that's what you're into, but it's not me.
You might think this is me being insecure about my sexuality, but that certainly is not the case. I am very accepting of it. I have told most of my friends that I am gay. I even went out on a number of occassions with my friends and my boyfriend in tow.And closeted guys are preferable for guys in that boat because there is less chance of them outing you. They are in the same boat. And they will put just as much energy in as you in denying their gay, masking anything that will give them away to others and remind you of what you both are, and what you're being together really is.
With openly gay guys (regardless of camp or not) there are too many reminders that they are gay, and too many associated risks. And they won't be as willing to hide and sneak around, and so will challenge the closeted bubble you live in and put you in awkward positions.
Yes, I will say that I would be uncomfortable in going out with a fully out gay guy. Why? As I mentioned before, I don't want it to get back to my workplace, or even my housemates.
In my last relationship it was very difficult for this reason. He was in the same position as me. Out to most of his friends, but not his work or housemates. For this reason we had to stay in the shadows. We couldn't even be "alone" together in case our housemates found out. It was very stressful. But there was no other option.The alternative is (and I don't mean this to be insulting or get personal) that you just have a really ****ty and entitled outlook on life. You have extremely specific preferences in terms of friends and relationships and won't even make any effort to interact with people or scenes that don't fit them, you are very self entitled and expect life to be on your terms and don't believe you should have to make any compromises for your wants and needs to become attainable, you are judgmental and superficial and refuse to reconsider your first impressions of people or places and get to really know them, and you are a bit of a prude.
Extremely specific preferences? I don't see how. I'm just don't "get on" with camp guys. That's not meant as a negative statement by the way. It's just like how some people don't get on with nerdy types, or really sporty types. Sometimes two types of people just don't click. I don't see that as having an entitled outlook on life. I see it as reality.0 -
I will be honest and say I don't like being associated with the campness of the gay community. It's synonymous with gay culture. Look at 99% of references to it in media. It's all limp wristed, pink wearing sex mad men. I know that isn't how it is in reality, but that's the message the public is receiving.
I actually think you're wrong. Perhaps 10 or 20 years ago that was the case, but right now the overwhelming press is about people wanting equal rights.You're even promoting it yourselves with the ridiculous Gay Pride Parade. It's not helping anyone. You're trying to show we're normal like everyone else by (some people) parading around in S&M gear? Can you blame me for not wanting to be associated with it? It's fine if that's what you're into, but it's not me.
Again, when was the last time you actually went to Pride? It is now a family event with very strict rules about costumes. It is overwhelmingly just regular Joes and Jane Soap's marching to show they they will not be kept silent about the fact that there are many many rights that we don't have simply because we're gay or trans.You might think this is me being insecure about my sexuality, but that certainly is not the case. I am very accepting of it. I have told most of my friends that I am gay. I even went out on a number of occassions with my friends and my boyfriend in tow.Yes, I will say that I would be uncomfortable in going out with a fully out gay guy. Why? As I mentioned before, I don't want it to get back to my workplace, or even my housemates.
Dude, what you have written there directs contradicts itself. Seriously, you say you're fine with your sexuality, yet the people you live with every day don't know. You are out to "most" of your friends. That doesn't scream security in your sexuality to me, frankly.
In my last relationship it was very difficult for this reason. He was in the same position as me. Out to most of his friends, but not his work or housemates. For this reason we had to stay in the shadows. We couldn't even be "alone" together in case our housemates found out. It was very stressful. But there was no other option.
Yes there was. Come out. There's always another option.Extremely specific preferences? I don't see how. I'm just don't "get on" with camp guys. That's not meant as a negative statement by the way. It's just like how some people don't get on with nerdy types, or really sporty types. Sometimes two types of people just don't click. I don't see that as having an entitled outlook on life. I see it as reality.
It actually seems like you've still got 'school' mentality. You know, putting people into their social groups. The nerds can't talk to the jocks, or other such rubbish.0 -
baby and crumble wrote: »I actually think you're wrong. Perhaps 10 or 20 years ago that was the case, but right now the overwhelming press is about people wanting equal rights.
I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.baby and crumble wrote: »Again, when was the last time you actually went to Pride? It is now a family event with very strict rules about costumes. It is overwhelmingly just regular Joes and Jane Soap's marching to show they they will not be kept silent about the fact that there are many many rights that we don't have simply because we're gay or trans.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_gay_pride_2013_%289172218799%29.jpgbaby and crumble wrote: »Dude, what you have written there directs contradicts itself. Seriously, you say you're fine with your sexuality, yet the people you live with every day don't know. You are out to "most" of your friends. That doesn't scream security in your sexuality to me, frankly.
Most of my friends, yes. I have told the people that it is actually relevant to. Maybe the first couple of times I did it because I needed to get it off my chest, but now I don't actively go around telling people as I don't see the point in "coming out" to friends for no reason. Now I say it only if it casually comes up in a conversation.baby and crumble wrote: »Yes there was. Come out. There's always another option.
I feel you haven't been reading my posts. I can't tell everyone in case it gets back to my workplace.
As for my housemates, one of them is very homophobic and I can't afford to lose the house I'm living in.baby and crumble wrote: »It actually seems like you've still got 'school' mentality. You know, putting people into their social groups. The nerds can't talk to the jocks, or other such rubbish.
Friendships are made when you are able to relate closely to another person. Common interests and attitudes are big factors in forming relationships.0 -
I recently tried to go to a gay bar, but I didn't like it one bit. I would consider myself a very masculine guy and I am not into the campness of the gay scene. It's not a slight against camp guys, but I am just attracted to masculine guys, that's all.Well it's pretty ignorant for you to assume that I believe that. I didn't say everyone is camp and not masculine.
Based on your own quote above I dont think i was making a rude assumption that you think all the guys in gay bars are camp. you said it yourself.Well seeing as how I am being received here, I don't think I'd be too welcome!
You are just self pitying now. You would be welcome.0 -
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I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.
Blaine, Karofsky, Santana, Brittany, and others: "Glee".
Thomas: "Downton Abbey"
Many of the characters in Orange is the New Black
Omar "The Wire."
Tara and Willow "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
Both main characters in "Weekend"
Frank, "The Vicar of Dibley"
Very few of the characters of "The L Word" were stereotypical.
Harry, "Mamma Mia!"
Ennis & Jack, "Brokeback Mountain"
Gareth & Matthew, "Four Weddings & A Funeral"
Allen Ginsberg, "Kill your Darlings"
To name a few. Ok, some of the plot points in these tv shows or movies relate to them being gay, but that's just realistic. It's hard to have a long running gay character and not address the fact he or she is gay, same as with a straight character.
That's not S&M. That's basically just guys in short shorts. You see worse (TRUST ME) on beaches throughout the world. They're not overtly sexual- there's no gimp masks, chains, dildo's, or anything else. I don't have a problem with that picture representing A FACET of the community. I think the majority of people can differentiate a couple of exhibitionist from the entire group of people. You don't assume ALL priests are abusers, you don't assume ALL Muslims are terrorists, you don't assume ALL Catholics are republican, etc. Well, at least you shouldn't.I feel you haven't been reading my posts. I can't tell everyone in case it gets back to my workplace.
As for my housemates, one of them is very homophobic and I can't afford to lose the house I'm living in.
Then that's a choice YOU make, to live with a homophobic person. If you were really bothered and wanted to be out and comfortable, you'd tell him, or move. I've been in that situation, and I had to make a choice.
As for your work situation, as far as I could read in your other posts you're not working in an environment where you could be fired for being gay- fair enough if you are a teacher or hospital worker. But you are still making the choice to curb your chances of meeting someone for a relationship by not being out. There are many, many men who would not be ok with being closeted so much by their boyfriend. These are the guys who may be most looking for a relationship rather can casual shags, which is what you have complaining about.Friendships are made when you are able to relate closely to another person. Common interests and attitudes are big factors in forming relationships.
OK. I agree, to a point. But these "camp" men you talk about how do you know they don't have similar interests? Looking at me, you would probably label me as a butch, stereotypical lesbian. From that initial assessment you'd assume I was into sports, like butch lesbians are meant to be. Into DIY like butch women are meant to be. But I am really interested in fashion, baking, sewing, I am banned from DIY because I'm so bad at it, and I'm sure some people are surprised by all that. But if you just passed me in the street or saw me in a bar, you'd assume I was a stereotypical butch lesbian. Which, whatever, I don't care who thinks I'm what, but I'm just trying to point out that looks and initial appearances can be deceiving, and dismissing a chunk of people because of your assumptions is wrong.0 -
Give yourself a pat on the pack for picking out ONE part of pride, again making it out that the whole gay community is like that. Pretty fed up of your antics now, it's obvious you're infallible here, wish you the best of luck with dating because I think with the way you carry on, you might need it.I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_gay_pride_2013_%289172218799%29.jpg0 -
baby and crumble wrote: »Blaine, Karofsky, Santana, Brittany, and others: "Glee".
Thomas: "Downton Abbey"
Many of the characters in Orange is the New Black
Omar "The Wire."
Tara and Willow "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
Both main characters in "Weekend"
Frank, "The Vicar of Dibley"
Very few of the characters of "The L Word" were stereotypical.
Harry, "Mamma Mia!"
Ennis & Jack, "Brokeback Mountain"
Gareth & Matthew, "Four Weddings & A Funeral"
Allen Ginsberg, "Kill your Darlings"
To name a few. Ok, some of the plot points in these tv shows or movies relate to them being gay, but that's just realistic. It's hard to have a long running gay character and not address the fact he or she is gay, same as with a straight character.
Oberyn, Loras - Game of Thrones
Most of the Cast of Looking - an entire show about gay dating, very few stereoptyically camp characters
Nashville - Will (Gay country and western star)
Rosie - Corination Street
Mitch - ParaNorman (children's animated move)
Gobber - How to train your dragon (another kids animated movie)
Syed & Christian - Eastenders
Captain Russell - Brooklyn Nine Nine
Frank Underwood - House of Cards (he's ****ing boss!)
it's harder to name the stereotypical characters these days. You're seeing what you want to see dude.0 -
I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.
This has been fairly well picked apart at this point.
http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1100-1/photos/1332161425-london-school-of-samba--st-patrick-days-parade-2012_1113751.jpg
I guess the Dublin St Patricks day parade is a sex filled orgy. One picture proves it all, eh?0 -
Join the front runners! Great way of meeting guys from all walks of life.0
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Aren't you just legitimising your housemate's homophobia by tolerating (and dare I say accepting) it OP?
You expect other gay people to blaze the trail and do the hard work for you.0 -
Well it's pretty ignorant for you to assume that I believe that. I didn't say everyone is camp and not masculine.
Just going off your own words here.Well seeing as how I am being received here, I don't think I'd be too welcome!
Believe it or not, everybody is trying to help you. We are getting frustrated because you don't want to help yourself. But I am sure you would be very welcome, as long as you are there with an open mind.
I have no expectations.
You should expect more from life. it's out there, and available for the taking. you just have to step out of your comfort zone and actually do something to help yourself obtain it.
I will be honest and say I don't like being associated with the campness of the gay community. It's synonymous with gay culture. Look at 99% of references to it in media. It's all limp wristed, pink wearing sex mad men. I know that isn't how it is in reality, but that's the message the public is receiving.
You're even promoting it yourselves with the ridiculous Gay Pride Parade. It's not helping anyone. You're trying to show we're normal like everyone else by (some people) parading around in S&M gear? Can you blame me for not wanting to be associated with it? It's fine if that's what you're into, but it's not me.
You might think this is me being insecure about my sexuality, but that certainly is not the case. I am very accepting of it. I have told most of my friends that I am gay. I even went out on a number of occassions with my friends and my boyfriend in tow.
I don't mean to be rude or glib here, but the fact that you think bringing your bf out with your friends is such a big sign kind of says it all. when you are truly comfortable in your self, you should see that as a given!
As for your comments on pride, as i said before:Why in the world would a community that developed for the purpose of allowing LGBT people to be comfortable and safe in expressing their identity and sexuality have to censor their sexuality out of the picture.
What kind of horrible repressed world would that be.
Straight people don't censor the sex out of society (there's even subtle sexual innuendos in children's cartoons - animaniaca was ripe with them when I was a kid). And yet we have to?
And for whose benefit? Who exactly are we promoting it to and how will that promotion benefit from censuring ourselves?
I presume it's can't be for gay peoples own sake.
If you subscribe to the view that gay people should conform to straight society and tone down their gayness to be accepted by straight people, then you should realise the absurdity of that argument.
If LGBT people are only "accepted" as long as the conform and hide the sexual part of their sexuality, then they aren't accepted at all. They are just tolerated as long as they abide by the majority's terms.
LGBT people will only be accepted for who and what they are when they are free to be who and what they are openly and without fear of being censured or discriminated against.
So the "conform to be accepted" argument is just so ridiculous that it shouldn't even need to be explained.
If it's not for you, fine. The idea that any display of sexuality in Pride (which are really such a very very small minority of participants) is holding is back is just absurd and illogical.
And honestly, I saw as much flesh at the St Patrick's day parade last year as I did at Pride.Yes, I will say that I would be uncomfortable in going out with a fully out gay guy. Why? As I mentioned before, I don't want it to get back to my workplace, or even my housemates.
In my last relationship it was very difficult for this reason. He was in the same position as me. Out to most of his friends, but not his work or housemates. For this reason we had to stay in the shadows. We couldn't even be "alone" together in case our housemates found out. It was very stressful. But there was no other option.
Yes, there was another option. Two of them actually - either come out or find a more tolerant place to live. You made a choice - you chose to stay closeted in order to retain your house mates approval and acceptance.
Unless you have very specific and unique living and working circumstances (even if the career that's so important to you pays you buttons, I've been on minimum wage and still managed to pay my rent and stand on my own two), you could have done things differently.
Honestly, you say you accept yourself, yet you chose to hide your relationship in the shadows and live a lie just o you could retain your room mates approval. You weren't showing very much respect for yourself, your bf or your relationship if you chose to put your house mates acceptance over all three.Extremely specific preferences? I don't see how. I'm just don't "get on" with camp guys. That's not meant as a negative statement by the way. It's just like how some people don't get on with nerdy types, or really sporty types. Sometimes two types of people just don't click. I don't see that as having an entitled outlook on life. I see it as reality.
The extremely specific preferences was only applicable in the event you wereent actually insecure in your sexuality. I don't mean to offend, but I am firmly of the belief that you are just insecure. The reason you don't want to associate with camp guy seems to have little to actually do with the camp guys, but an awful lot about what you fear it might say about you.
In any event, categorically stating you won't get along with X group just comes across as very narrow minded and a form of bigotry. You are pre-judging people based on one characteristic. Camp is only one aspect of a person's personality and character.
As for the entitled outlook on life, while you have no revised this as a rant, you started this thread to ask how to meet guys, without actually being willing to do anything to help yourself do so. it seems you expected that you could stay in your comfort zone and still have what you wanted out of life.
that's not going to happen.
so your choice is either your career and your house mates approval, or your happiness.
it's up to you which you choose. i really hope you make the right choice. believe me, the former path can lead you in a very dark direction. I'm yet to meet somebody who regretted choosing the latter though.0 -
There's a lot to get through here so bear with me.Based on your own quote above I dont think i was making a rude assumption that you think all the guys in gay bars are camp. you said it yourself.
Once again, read what I said. I said the campness of the scene, not that all gay guys are camp. Stop putting words in my mouth.baby and crumble wrote: »To name a few. Ok, some of the plot points in these tv shows or movies relate to them being gay, but that's just realistic. It's hard to have a long running gay character and not address the fact he or she is gay, same as with a straight character.
I haven't seen most of them as they are aren't exactly my type of shows. I will have to take your word for it.baby and crumble wrote: »That's not S&M. That's basically just guys in short shorts.
Sorry, here you go: http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.1448041.1372521585!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_940/image.jpgbaby and crumble wrote: »Then that's a choice YOU make, to live with a homophobic person. If you were really bothered and wanted to be out and comfortable, you'd tell him, or move. I've been in that situation, and I had to make a choice.
Yes, I am making this choice. But it's a logical choice. If I tell him it wouldn't make things any better. If I move I'm hardly going to tell the person renting the house I am gay before moving in, so I'll be back to the same position I am in at the moment.baby and crumble wrote: »As for your work situation, as far as I could read in your other posts you're not working in an environment where you could be fired for being gay- fair enough if you are a teacher or hospital worker.
No, I would not be fired. But who is to say that certain co workers have a grudge against homosexuals? Maybe my manager is a homophobe? I could easily be passed for promotion on this basis, or even let go under another premise.Give yourself a pat on the pack for picking out ONE part of pride, again making it out that the whole gay community is like that. Pretty fed up of your antics now, it's obvious you're infallible here, wish you the best of luck with dating because I think with the way you carry on, you might need it.
I am getting tired of people not listening to me. I never said the whole community is like this. How can I get it through to your thick skulls? I know it's only a part of the community, but it's how the community is perceived.
Who remembers the "average" guys in the gay pride parade? No one.
Who remembers the guy in the S&M gear? Everyone!http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1100-1/photos/1332161425-london-school-of-samba--st-patrick-days-parade-2012_1113751.jpg
I guess the Dublin St Patricks day parade is a sex filled orgy. One picture proves it all, eh?
But who is she representing? Look at it this way, if she was representing nurses, or teachers, how does dressing up like that showcase whatever they are trying to showcase. I'm sure she was there purely as "eye candy" as that is what the parade is about. Entertaining the audience.
Is the Gay Pride parade there to allow some people display their sexual fetishes? No. It's there to try and integrate the community, unless I am sorely mistaken.Just going off your own words here.
Nope. See above.I don't mean to be rude or glib here, but the fact that you think bringing your bf out with your friends is such a big sign kind of says it all. when you are truly comfortable in your self, you should see that as a given!
You're being very flippant. Look, coming out and being gay may be a cake walk for you, but for others it's not so easy. And for your information, it is a big sign. What's bigger than coming out to your closest friends and for them to accept you?Yes, there was another option. Two of them actually - either come out or find a more tolerant place to live. You made a choice - you chose to stay closeted in order to retain your house mates approval and acceptance.
Unless you have very specific and unique living and working circumstances (even if the career that's so important to you pays you buttons, I've been on minimum wage and still managed to pay my rent and stand on my own two), you could have done things differently.
Honestly, you say you accept yourself, yet you chose to hide your relationship in the shadows and live a lie just o you could retain your room mates approval. You weren't showing very much respect for yourself, your bf or your relationship if you chose to put your house mates acceptance over all three.
See my comments previously.The reason you don't want to associate with camp guy seems to have little to actually do with the camp guys, but an awful lot about what you fear it might say about you.
It is partly about what people may think about me, yes.so your choice is either your career and your house mates approval, or your happiness.
it's up to you which you choose. i really hope you make the right choice. believe me, the former path can lead you in a very dark direction. I'm yet to meet somebody who regretted choosing the latter though.
Seeing as most of my life revolves around my workplace and my home, how can I not choose the former?0 -
Is the Gay Pride parade there to allow some people display their sexual fetishes? No. It's there to try and integrate the community, unless I am sorely mistaken.
You are mistaken. It's about creating awareness of the lack of equality for the LGBT community.
It's about a fun day out for anyone who wants to come- a lot of marchers are straight.
It's about celebrating who we are instead of being made feel ashamed.
I can see that you have no intention of listening or hearing what we are saying. From my reading of your posts I have come to the following conclusions:
1) You are happy to stay semi-closeted. Well done, you are more than welcome to do so. But staying in because you MIGHT have a homophobic colleague or boss is, frankly, just an excuse. Unless you are in a particular religion based company, you cannot be fired or passed over because of your sexuality. It's illegal, and 90% of employers have specific inclusionary policies now.
2) You want to find a man who is confident in himself, who is masculine (rather than camp), you want to not engage in one night stands or random sh*gs. Fair enough.
3) You have shot down EVERY SINGLE SUGGESTION the posters have given you. Gay bars are too camp, sports clubs sound "fruity", you don't want to have to join special clubs to meet gay people, even though you say yourself your gaydar sucks. Yet you don't want to take any risks to change your situation. You seem to think the perfect man will fall into your lap or something, and be perfectly happy to stay semi-closeted in your life, not able to hold hands or sleep together in his boyfriends house. That's just a silly situation.
4) You seem to think that straight people don't have to use internet dating sites, or go to particular bars to meet people and score, or join clubs and societies dedicated to their hobbies. THEY DO. Do you think that straight people want their workplace to know they're on the pull on Plenty of Fish? Probably not, but you know what? Most people are grown up about it.
5) You have major issues with the scene, with the perceived sexualisation of the scene, and what people are going to think of YOU because some guy on a parade wears leather. Hey, guess what? The leather scene is a big cultural and historic part of the LGBT community. They have just as much a right to be part of or community as you do. As the Dykes on Bikes do, as the S&M aficionados do, as the teenybopper twinks do. I don't have anything much in common with those groups but I don't bitch about their inclusion in a community that is just as much theirs as it is mine.
With that, I bid farewell. You are not in the frame of mind to take our well intentioned suggestions now, nor have you ever been. Sit, moan, vent, whinge about how left out you feel. See how attractive that makes you to other guys.0 -
There's a lot to get through here so bear with me.
Once again, read what I said. I said the campness of the scene, not that all gay guys are camp. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I haven't seen most of them as they are aren't exactly my type of shows. I will have to take your word for it.
Sorry, here you go: http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.1448041.1372521585!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_940/image.jpg
Yes, I am making this choice. But it's a logical choice. If I tell him it wouldn't make things any better. If I move I'm hardly going to tell the person renting the house I am gay before moving in, so I'll be back to the same position I am in at the moment.
No, I would not be fired. But who is to say that certain co workers have a grudge against homosexuals? Maybe my manager is a homophobe? I could easily be passed for promotion on this basis, or even let go under another premise.
I am getting tired of people not listening to me. I never said the whole community is like this. How can I get it through to your thick skulls? I know it's only a part of the community, but it's how the community is perceived.
Who remembers the "average" guys in the gay pride parade? No one.
Who remembers the guy in the S&M gear? Everyone!
But who is she representing? Look at it this way, if she was representing nurses, or teachers, how does dressing up like that showcase whatever they are trying to showcase. I'm sure she was there purely as "eye candy" as that is what the parade is about. Entertaining the audience.
Is the Gay Pride parade there to allow some people display their sexual fetishes? No. It's there to try and integrate the community, unless I am sorely mistaken.
Nope. See above.
You're being very flippant. Look, coming out and being gay may be a cake walk for you, but for others it's not so easy. And for your information, it is a big sign. What's bigger than coming out to your closest friends and for them to accept you?
See my comments previously.
It is partly about what people may think about me, yes.
Seeing as most of my life revolves around my workplace and my home, how can I not choose the former?
I'm not going through it all so here's a couple of bullet points:
* we all face those risks in work. There are frankly fairly slim these days. If anything most employers err on the side of not pissing of the LGBT worker just in case they land themselves with a discrimination action.
But you're circumstances aren't any different to the rest of us.
* on accomodation, if you think it will be an issue when viewing a place or interviewing perspective room mates, you casually mention something like "is there any issue if I was to have a boyfriend over". Better to find out there and then if it will be an issue then had to spend your time sneaking around.
* coming out was hard as hell for me. How about reading some of my posts. I knew at the time it would be worth it, and I knew the alternative was a dark and scary option.
* you might think I was being glib, and it was a milestone for us all to bring a partner out for the first time. But ultimately it shouldn't be a big deal. It's only significant for most of us because it was the first time. It's normal and expected. What type of relationship would you be in where you couldn't. So in that context, the fact that you saw it as such a big sign of your acceptance is reflective that of where your head is at. You don't see it as mundane. It should be.
* pride is about saying we are here, we are proud of who we are, and we don't feel we should have to hide how we are in order or conpromise in order to gain your acceptance. So basing your costume choice on what you think will be most palatable to straight people goes against the whole point of pride.
It was the drag queens, the camp men, the butch dykes and the exhibitionists who started off the whole gay pride and rights movement after all. Look up stonewall and the history of the gay rights movement.
And as I've said before, if you have to play down aspects of who you are as a community in order to be accepted then you aren't accepted.
* given you are unhappy with the consequence of your choice, it doesn't seem all that logical to the rest of us.
*if most of your life revolves around work and housemates who don't even know (and may not accept) the real you, then you should seriously take up a new hobby or interest. Apart from any LGBT club or society. You need an outlet though.
Look at the end of the day it's a choice you are making. If you are happy with it, then fine.
However, having been in your shoes, there is little you can say that would persuade us your making the right or logical choice.
We've been there, we know the reasons against coming out and dealing with your sexuality. And we know the benefits of doing so. If you ask for advice we will always give you the same advice because it's tried and tested, and always proves correct.
Likely it's not really us you are trying to convince anyway - it's yourself.
I doubt you are going to change your mind on this now. You are too entrenched in your views.
Just know that it won't get better if you continue the way you are. It gets harder the longer you continue lying about who you are and sneaking around. Luckily you are somewhat out to friends so have people you can talk to.
Ultimately though there may well come a time when, for your own mental and emotional health, you need to make some changes in your life.
We will be there for you when your ready (and as long as you are open minded and willing to take on board what we say we'll be here in the interim too). Until then, remember that you have options and that friends, housemates or a career aren't worth much to you if you aren't happy with your life outside of work.0 -
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baby and crumble wrote: »You are mistaken. It's about creating awareness of the lack of equality for the LGBT community.
Oh come one, that's just semantics. You know that I meant equality when I said integration.baby and crumble wrote: »1) You are happy to stay semi-closeted. Well done, you are more than welcome to do so. But staying in because you MIGHT have a homophobic colleague or boss is, frankly, just an excuse. Unless you are in a particular religion based company, you cannot be fired or passed over because of your sexuality. It's illegal, and 90% of employers have specific inclusionary policies now.
I don't know if I would say happy, but the alternatives are not much better for me right now. And as I said about my job, no one is going to say you're passed up for promotion or fired because you're gay. Other spurious reasons could be given.baby and crumble wrote: »2) You want to find a man who is confident in himself, who is masculine (rather than camp), you want to not engage in one night stands or random sh*gs. Fair enough.
Don't think I mentioned anything about confidence before, but okay.baby and crumble wrote: »3) You have shot down EVERY SINGLE SUGGESTION the posters have given you. Gay bars are too camp, sports clubs sound "fruity", you don't want to have to join special clubs to meet gay people, even though you say yourself your gaydar sucks. Yet you don't want to take any risks to change your situation. You seem to think the perfect man will fall into your lap or something, and be perfectly happy to stay semi-closeted in your life, not able to hold hands or sleep together in his boyfriends house. That's just a silly situation.
Oh I don't believe the perfect man will fall into my lap or that I will be perfectly happy in my semi-closeted life. Yes it is a silly situation.baby and crumble wrote: »4) You seem to think that straight people don't have to use internet dating sites, or go to particular bars to meet people and score, or join clubs and societies dedicated to their hobbies. THEY DO. Do you think that straight people want their workplace to know they're on the pull on Plenty of Fish? Probably not, but you know what? Most people are grown up about it.
It may be more common place now with smart phones and that, but a couple of years ago hardly anyone, my age at least, would use dating websites. And any girlfriends my friends have had were through "normal" avenues. Through other friends, at work, college etc.baby and crumble wrote: »5) You have major issues with the scene, with the perceived sexualisation of the scene, and what people are going to think of YOU because some guy on a parade wears leather. Hey, guess what? The leather scene is a big cultural and historic part of the LGBT community. They have just as much a right to be part of or community as you do. As the Dykes on Bikes do, as the S&M aficionados do, as the teenybopper twinks do. I don't have anything much in common with those groups but I don't bitch about their inclusion in a community that is just as much theirs as it is mine.
But what does all that have to do with being in the LGBT community? What is the correlation of S&M (for example) with being gay? Maybe I am missing something.0 -
Sorry, I don't have time to comment on all your points either.* on accomodation, if you think it will be an issue when viewing a place or interviewing perspective room mates, you casually mention something like "is there any issue if I was to have a boyfriend over". Better to find out there and then if it will be an issue then had to spend your time sneaking around.
You're being a bit naive here. As accepting as most people are, a bunch of lads are more likely to choose a straight housemate over a gay one given the option.pride is about saying we are here, we are proud of who we are, and we don't feel we should have to hide how we are in order or conpromise in order to gain your acceptance. So basing your costume choice on what you think will be most palatable to straight people goes against the whole point of pride.
But there are plenty of straight people who have certain fetishes, but does everyone need to know about them?0 -
Sorry, I don't have time to comment on all your points either.
You're being a bit naive here. As accepting as most people are, a bunch of lads are more likely to choose a straight housemate over a gay one given the option.
But there are plenty of straight people who have certain fetishes, but does everyone need to know about them?
Tell me, how do all the rest of the LGBT people in the country manage?
You're the one whose being naive if you think that there aren't plenty of other gay men and women who have been in exactly the same position as you, and can still live your life openly.
Your choosing your life which is fine. That's your decision to make. Stop trying to pretend though that there is any compelling reasons specific to you for doing so.
Everything you have put forward as a reason to stay semi closeted applies equally to all the other young men and women in the country, but lots of us haven't let it stop us living our lives.
It's your choice to live that way but you have no excuse other than your own insecurity and fear.0 -
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If that's S&M, I've obviously been doing something majorly wrong the past few years, oh lord... :P (the sailor on the right is cute though)
Sad and disappointing commentary, not to mention unrepresentative of pride. You really just don't get it, do you? Life your life the way you want to, stop pretending it's anyone elses fault but your own if you are unhappy though. At least admit you're a closet case. Being 'out' on the outside doesn't being being out on the inside.But there are plenty of straight people who have certain fetishes, but does everyone need to know about them?
But you know why this isn't as accessible, don't you? Even then, it is not difficult to meet someone at a bar, it just so happens with a gay bar you know who's who. What's the point mentioning 'normal' avenues like work when you refuse to let yourself be known there, of course people won't be introducing you to a gay mate or meeting a gay coworker. Seriously...stop pontificating and just go out there, life is so short to be doing this. Pantibar or Front Lounge are great spots for meeting people, along with joining a group like Front Runners. You're your own worst enemy right now, and that is more depressing than anything else.It may be more common place now with smart phones and that, but a couple of years ago hardly anyone, my age at least, would use dating websites. And any girlfriends my friends have had were through "normal" avenues. Through other friends, at work, college etc.
God Eaglach, if you knew how much easier life can become by just being yourself rather than panicking about everyone else's potential reaction, you could save yourself the emotional agony you put yourself through. You know yourself that you can't 'straighten up'. Ireland has a really good attitude towards gay men at this stage. When you build up a situation in your head for years without giving yourself a shot in real life, problems seem so much bigger than they are in real life. Have you thought about contacting Outhouse or Gay Switchboard to see if they have a private group you could discuss your feelings? Maybe you need to talk to someone in a similar boat to you to give you more courage. You need to stop this silly notion that gay=camped out. There are as many flamboyant/attention seeking straight guys out there, as there are gay, you just don't see that because they happen to like girls and you have a complex going on. The majority of gay men you probably don't even notice walking right by you because you're so preoccupied with trying to find the stereotype within them when most of us are completely ordinary individuals with our own interests and attitudes. No, we don't listen to Madonna and we don't love girly things.There is so much more to masculinity than having a gruff voice, playing footballs, and drinking cans. I'm coming across sharply in my posts but only because it's incredibly frustrating to see someone lock themselves up and cause so much self inflicted mental stress over a fact of life. It gets better by being true to yourself, and that is a damn fact.
You've been given the same advice in every thread you've posted, what's going on here really? That's what you need to ask yourself.0 -
Once again, read what I said. I said the campness of the scene, not that all gay guys are camp. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Yeah and all I said was to give it another chance that there's probably a lot of masculine a hidden behind all that campness, that I used to have the same misgivings as you but I have got over it rather than spending any more time feeling sorry for myself.
If you think you know better I don't know why you came here seeking advise. There is absolutely no need to be so aggressive with everyone who is providing advise that you asked for.0 -
Eaglach I dont meean this to sound harsh but honest.
I think people here are listening to you and providing counter arguments against the points you make.
The way I see it is this.
1 You are deeply unhappy in life
2 You are deeply frustrated at being unhappy
3 You view everything in life negatively
4 You can't accept that in order to change your happiness you might need to change the way you do things or the way you see things.
5 Life always has risks you just refuse to take them
6 I think your view that people here are not listening to you is deeply ironic. In my view its the other way around. You are not listening to everyone else.
7 You are continuously making excuses about why you cannot change anything in your life.
8 You want something different from life but you are too scared to change anything in your life to get there.
I suppose you need to ask some questions - what do you want from life? What is holding you back?
You could take a simple step forward. Goto the meetup tonight.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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OP, speaking as a straight female, the general view of the gay community (from what I, my family and my friends think) isn't that they're all camp sado masochists.
It's that they're people who love the same gender. No big deal. Even my staunchly Catholic mum doesn't think 'camp' when she thinks of gay people.
One of my friends is the absolute stereotypical gay man. He's camp and attention seeking. He wears skirts and make up and s+m gear to straight bars purely for the reaction he knows he'll get. Conversely, every other gay person I'm friends with is nothing like the stereotypes.
You're assuming you know how gay people are perceived by society. Yes, there are plenty of bigots out there who WILL perceive gay people in a negative way, but the vast majority aren't that stupid.
What you're describing is a common trend for straight people in PI. Want to meet someone but won't go to meet up groups, won't show their face on dating sites, won't attempt to meet someone in a bar. In short, they stay miserable while waiting for mr/ms right to knock on their door and sweep them off their feet. It doesn't happen. The only difference here between your situation and a similar one with a straight person involved is that you won't come out, not fully.
Your excuses about not coming out at work are ridiculous. If snide comments are made about your sexuality, you report them. Same with being passed over for promotion because of your gender. Sexuality is something that it is illegal toddiscriminate over.
Ultimately, you want to meet someone, but aren't taking ANY steps to do so. And honestly, you'd be hard pressed to find a man who's willing to stay 'in the closet' for you, not spend time alone with you in case people guess that you're dating and deal with never being able to have a real relationship.
You're the one holding yourself back here.0 -
Joeytheparrot wrote: »1 You are deeply unhappy in life
Entirely untrue. I am very happy with my career, my finances, my friends, my family. Only one facet of my life could improve and that is finding a partner.Joeytheparrot wrote: »2 You are deeply frustrated at being unhappy
I am frustrated about the last point above, yes.Joeytheparrot wrote: »3 You view everything in life negatively
That is a very wild statement! You know nothing about me. I am quite the opposite.Joeytheparrot wrote: »4 You can't accept that in order to change your happiness you might need to change the way you do things or the way you see things.
I'm torn about this statement. Changing the way I do things may improve some parts of my life but could also potentially damage other parts.Joeytheparrot wrote: »5 Life always has risks you just refuse to take them
I do take risks. Telling people you are gay is a risk.Joeytheparrot wrote: »6 I think your view that people here are not listening to you is deeply ironic. In my view its the other way around. You are not listening to everyone else.
You are wrong on this. People are literally misreading what I have said. I have listened what you all have had to say, taken it on board, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to follow your advice.Joeytheparrot wrote: »7 You are continuously making excuses about why you cannot change anything in your life.
8 You want something different from life but you are too scared to change anything in your life to get there.
Oh I can change things, but the options presented aren't exactly the best for me right now. I know it works for some people, but making any of these changes right now might negatively impact my life elsewhere.0 -
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Your answer to point number 3 is interesting.
When I look at your answers to 4,6,7 and 8 it reinforces my point. In my view you view almost everything negatively.
Answer 4 - you can't improve one facet of your life because of other potential negative impacts - this is a negative viewpoint
Answer 6 - you take on board what we say but for some reason - everything we suggest is wrong for you - despite our continued reassurances - again more negative viewpoints - I mean seriously - judging wet and wild on its name is deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply silly and stupid - any wet and wild events I've attended are full of masculine "non camp" men but you in your wisdom use your negative viewpoint to prejudge and hold yourself back
Answer 7/8 - Again more negative viewpoints. Your entire focus is - "I can't do it because this bad thing might not happen" - You are focused on a possible negative outcome without considering the bigger picture.
It was suggested you possibly attend the meet up tonight but because of your negative frame of mind you ruled this out.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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