Where to meet guys if you're not into the scene?

eaglach

I'm in a very awkward position. A few years ago I started to accept that I was gay and wanted to explore this world which I was hiding away from for so long. I started to chat to guys online, and actually met a few of them. But to be honest, I find it all very sleazy. 90% of people on there are looking for "NSA" or "fun" which I am not into at all.

I recently tried to go to a gay bar, but I didn't like it one bit. I would consider myself a very masculine guy and I am not into the campness of the gay scene. It's not a slight against camp guys, but I am just attracted to masculine guys, that's all.

But where can I go from here? I've tried online, I've tried gay bars. Both were not very succesful. Where else is there? If people suggest less sleazy dating websites, like plenty of fish or something, I would like to try them, but unfortunately due to fear of it having implications in my career (I know it shouldn't be the case, but some people are still prejudiced and I can't take that risk) I will never be able to show my face online! So that rules those out.

I'm sure there are other guys out there like me, but how do I meet them, or what has been your experience?

Daith

I think you're too hard of gay bars. They're not full of camp men only. Likewise I'm unsure if the online stuff is 90% sex only.

Other than that perhaps a social group like Wet and Wild or the Emerald Warriors.

Ten of Swords

Eaglach this question gets asked every year and from what I have read each time you are given similar good advice. Have you tried any of it?

You need to step out of your comfort zone. Life is too short. How did you meet your last boyfriend?

Clubs and societies is actually a good environment, there are the forum meetups too.

I understand your reluctance to fully engage because you are worried about work colleagues finding out but you're obviously not happy with your current situation.

What is your ideal scenario?

eaglach

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Eaglach this question gets asked every year and from what I have read each time you are given similar good advice. Have you tried any of it?

You need to step out of your comfort zone. Life is too short. How did you meet your last boyfriend?

Clubs and societies is actually a good environment, there are the forum meetups too.

I understand your reluctance to fully engage because you are worried about work colleagues finding out but you're obviously not happy with your current situation.

What is your ideal scenario?

Looking back on my post history I see! I keep forgetting you can do that!

The advice from previous posts that I have tried is going to the gay bars, which I didn't like. I guess I could try clubs and societies, but to be honest it is all very "fruity", no offence. I mean with a name like "Wet and Wild", seriously?

I met my last boyfriend online through one of those dodgy websites. This was after years being on it and he happened to be one of the minority that just wasn't after NSA. I must have talked to hundreds of guys up until that point! He was in the same position as me as well.

I don't know what my ideal scenario is. I guess I'm just frustrated with my current situation and there is little I can do about it.

Daith

eaglach wrote: »

I guess I could try clubs and societies, but to be honest it is all very "fruity", no offence. I mean with a name like "Wet and Wild", seriously?

I actually just think you're taking the piss now.

"Where do I find some masculine men"
"Try this group which is for gay men and women to do sports activities like kayaking, wind surfing, hiking"
"No, I can't get past the name, woe is me I'll never find anyone".

eaglach wrote: »

I don't know what my ideal scenario is. I guess I'm just frustrated with my current situation and there is little I can do about it.

There appears to be little you actually want to do about it.

J_E

eaglach wrote: »

The advice from previous posts that I have tried is going to the gay bars, which I didn't like. I guess I could try clubs and societies, but to be honest it is all very "fruity", no offence. I mean with a name like "Wet and Wild", seriously?

You're not going to want to hear this but you need to get over yourself if that's the attitude you're going to have. Did it dawn on you that you must be putting off guys talking like that?


If you're going through a period of insecurity with your identity, that's something you have to work at in a personal capacity, because that's what it sounds like.

baby and crumble

I'm going to be brutal.

You ask these types of questions a lot, and you always get great advice. You simply don't seem to want to hear it.

You (and I hate to say this) need to cop on and get over yourself. Your posts actually denigrate a large proportion of posters here. There are lots of gay men who aren't camp, there's lots of gay men who don't go on the scene, there's lots of gay men who want a relationship. But they're willing to try to meet someone- by trying different tactics. Ruling out an entire social group simply because you think the name is weird? Ruling out entire bars because some men choose to express themselves in a non gender conforming manner? Did you ever think you're creating your own problems?

Ten of Swords

eaglach wrote: »

Looking back on my post history I see! I keep forgetting you can do that!

Yep, shamelessly stalking you

OK seriously, I wasn't attacking you with my post and I'm pretty sure none of the other posters are either so don't feel we're having a go at you. I just think that you're spending too much time worrying about meeting gay people and not actually doing anything at all to meet any. You also seem to have some preconceived notions about gay clubs/groups.

Wet and Wild is just a name, it's members are people that like adventure, physical activity and meeting other like minded people - that's all. Seriously, if someone is looking for just sex then it's Grindr or Craigslist or any of the other myriad of apps and websites and you'll be sorted within the hour - people don't join these clubs and societies for hookups, its to make friends which is exactly what you're asking about.

I don't want to go over old ground, I think floggg summed it up very well when he answered one of your threads before here

I can't really add to that.

eaglach wrote: »

I don't know what my ideal scenario is. I guess I'm just frustrated with my current situation and there is little I can do about it.

This is not true.

eaglach

Daith wrote: »

I actually just think you're taking the piss now.

"Where do I find some masculine men"
"Try this group which is for gay men and women to do sports activities like kayaking, wind surfing, hiking"
"No, I can't get past the name, woe is me I'll never find anyone".

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

I see Ten of Swords has referenced an old post by flogg about me "struggling with my identity". That's not it at all. I know exactly who I am and I've no problem with it. The problem I have is finding where I fit in with everyone else! I know there are like minded gay guys out there in the same position as myself. But as I say if they are in the same position as myself, I am unlikely to bump into them!

Maybe I'm not really looking for advice. I do tend to come on here with the same problems and not really resolving anything. I think the reason I post these things is to vent. I guess I don't really have any other outlet for my thoughts and just need to get things off my chest.

Aard

eaglach wrote: »

I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo.

You're complaining that groups organised for people based on their sexual orientation have a name with sexual innuendo? Ok.

lottpaul

eaglach wrote: »

I know there are like minded gay guys out there in the same position as myself. But as I say if they are in the same position as myself, I am unlikely to bump into them!

Maybe I'm not really looking for advice. I do tend to come on here with the same problems and not really resolving anything. I think the reason I post these things is to vent. I guess I don't really have any other outlet for my thoughts and just need to get things off my chest.

It's a shame that you have no other outlet at the moment but I'm glad that you are able to speak your mind here

You are probably voicing the feelings of a large number of people - and you have hit the nail exactly on the head when you say that by not reaching out you're unlikely to meet likeminded people. It's a classic no pain, no gain situation - but I think you know that already.

I think you're entitled to come on here any time you like and vent, get things off your chest etc. Just be upfront about it rather than asking how to meet guys etc.

We all need to have a bit of a rant from time to time and people here are generally very supportive and encouraging. We all have our good and bad days, so let it out!

J_E

eaglach wrote: »

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

This post makes me so mad...I don't think it would be wise for me to reply to it...

endacl

eaglach wrote: »

I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

Straight guy tuppence worth! Feel free to ignore....

A community that you're part of and accepts you is one that you alter by your belonging.

That's all I got.

I'll just get back to my masculine hetero stereotypical stuff now. Sorry for the intrusion.

Now where did I leave that hammer.......

baby and crumble

Op, no-one minds you coming in to vent, at all. I think we get frustrated when someone comes in and constantly asks the same question, seemingly ignoring everything we say. You know?

My honest advice to you? You sound like someone who is still unsure of where they fit in- if at all. When I first came out I felt a lot like you. Why was everything based in bars? Why was so much of the scene geared towards men? You know what I had to do? I had to work to be ok with all aspects of the scene. I may not understand the draw of Bear Feile, as an example, but I say fair play to them. Do you see what I'm saying? You seem to have an awful lot of assumptions about great swathes of people, that are quite unjustified.

I doubt all gay bars are only full of camp guys. (I know they aren't. And even if they are, how do you know you won't make a friend? You don't only have to be going out to find a boyfriend. I'll be honest too, attitudes that denigrate gender non-conformity really bug me, but that's a post for another day...)

I doubt everyone in Wet and Wild is sleazy and only thinking about sex. Have you ever gone to an event?

Your assumptions and fears about stepping outside your comfort zone are holding you back, hugely. For many years I saw the world in black and white only. If you'd told me when I was 16 that one day I'd be sitting in a gay bar chatting about transgenderism with a group of women who only had polyamorous relationships, and who ran underground feminist zines on South America... Well, I would have freaked out. I was a NORMAL GAY. Not a weird one like that.

Oh, youth and niaivetee.

Daith

eaglach wrote: »

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

Right and what about Emerald Warriors which I also mentioned. Gay rugby group. Or is it Emerald...Oz...Dorothy....Camp.

Wet and Wild is also the name of a water theme park in Orlando. https://www.wetnwildorlando.com/

You're looking for issues when there aren't. Take a risk go to a group instead of assuming everything.

floggg

eaglach wrote: »

Looking back on my post history I see! I keep forgetting you can do that!

The advice from previous posts that I have tried is going to the gay bars, which I didn't like. I guess I could try clubs and societies, but to be honest it is all very "fruity", no offence. I mean with a name like "Wet and Wild", seriously?

I met my last boyfriend online through one of those dodgy websites. This was after years being on it and he happened to be one of the minority that just wasn't after NSA. I must have talked to hundreds of guys up until that point! He was in the same position as me as well.

I don't know what my ideal scenario is. I guess I'm just frustrated with my current situation and there is little I can do about it.

Dude? Seriously?

You won't do bars because they are too "camp", won't do clubs and societies because they are too "fruity" and won't do face pics online.

So seeing as you aren't really interested in putting yourself out there, taking a risk or getting over your own hang-ups and misconceptions, there's not much we can do for you.

I can only suggest going away for a few years and growing up.

There's not much point in even telling you that you are wrong on the bars and clubs (there is some camp guys alright, but what harm - You aren't defined by them. There's also plenty of folks just like you if you actually made an effort to look for them) seeing as you are too caught upon what you don't like to ever find somebody new.

Also, the only places you can get fired for being gay are places ran by religious institutions like certain hospitals and schools. And I know teachers who aren't out for fear of losing their job who still manage to put a face pic up.

If they do it, you've no real "career" excuse - other than those of your own making. The rest of us risk unspoken prejudices holding us back too, but it sure is a damn sight easier to deal with than a life time of "woe is me" self sabotage.

See you next year for the similar thread.


PS - for the sake of others reading this, if somebody had career concerns is generally be sympathetic and understanding. The difference here is that the OP seems to be refusing to do anything to step out of his comfort zone, and is still expecting the universe to some how hand him what he wants.

floggg

eaglach wrote: »

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

I see Ten of Swords has referenced an old post by flogg about me "struggling with my identity". That's not it at all. I know exactly who I am and I've no problem with it. The problem I have is finding where I fit in with everyone else! I know there are like minded gay guys out there in the same position as myself. But as I say if they are in the same position as myself, I am unlikely to bump into them!

Honestly, if you aren't struggling with your identity, then maybe you should struggle with it a little bit because your current one isn't a good look.

Why in the world would a community that developed for the purpose of allowing LGBT people to be comfortable and safe in expressing their identity and sexuality have to censor their sexuality out of the picture.

What kind of horrible repressed world would that be.

Straight people don't censor the sex out of society (there's even subtle sexual innuendos in children's cartoons - animaniaca was ripe with them when I was a kid). And yet we have to?

And for whose benefit? Who exactly are we promoting it to and how will that promotion benefit from censuring ourselves?

I presume it's can't be for gay peoples own sake.

If you subscribe to the view that gay people should conform to straight society and tone down their gayness to be accepted by straight people, then you should realise the absurdity of that argument.

If LGBT people are only "accepted" as long as the conform and hide the sexual part of their sexuality, then they aren't accepted at all. They are just tolerated as long as they abide by the majority's terms.

LGBT people will only be accepted for who and what they are when they are free to be who and what they are openly and without fear of being censured or discriminated against.

So the "conform to be accepted" argument is just so ridiculous that it shouldn't even need to be explained.

Scruffy...The Janitor

I remember when I was in the closet and deathly afraid of being found out. I would think things like.

'Can't be seen hanging around with this gay mate of mine too much. Everyone will think I'm gay'

'Can't wear a pink t shirt. It's very camp. Everyone will think I'm gay'

Then for a while after I came out I would worry about things like being very conscious about how I acted, gestured, stood etc. I wanted to be the 'straight acting' gay lad and didn't want to be part of the scene etc. I was still very uptight and unsure of my identity and focussed too much on the negative aspects of being gay.

I think you're at this stage. As has been said before you need to put yourself out. Yeah sure, you can go to a gay bar and there may be a bunch of flaming queens in the corner. So what. Like it or not they're part of the community that you're part of. Don't pay them any attention or associate with them if they're not your thing. There'll also be plenty of lads you wouldn't in a million years have guessed are gay. At the moment you just don't notice them cos you're too busy with the negatives.

Same goes for wet and wild. It's like me with the pink t shirt. You're attaching connotations to something that simply aren't there for anyone else. As was said before, there's a theme park in Orlando called Wet and Wild. How many parents do you think avoid bringing their kids to the park cos of it's innuendo?

For the record tho, the only social/sports group I have any experience of is Wet and Wild. It's great for meeting gay men and women in a social setting. But if you go to any of their events with the sole intention of meeting someone to get with you, won't fit in. I would imagine a lot of the groups are the same.

floggg

Scruffy...The Janitor wrote: »

I remember when I was in the closet and deathly afraid of being found out. I would think things like.

'Can't be seen hanging around with this gay mate of mine too much. Everyone will think I'm gay'

'Can't wear a pink t shirt. It's very camp. Everyone will think I'm gay'

Then for a while after I came out I would worry about things like being very conscious about how I acted, gestured, stood etc. I wanted to be the 'straight acting' gay lad and didn't want to be part of the scene etc. I was still very uptight and unsure of my identity and focussed too much on the negative aspects of being gay.

I think you're at this stage. As has been said before you need to put yourself out. Yeah sure, you can go to a gay bar and there may be a bunch of flaming queens in the corner. So what. Like it or not they're part of the community that you're part of. Don't pay them any attention or associate with them if they're not your thing. There'll also be plenty of lads you wouldn't in a million years have guessed are gay. At the moment you just don't notice them cos you're too busy with the negatives.

Same goes for wet and wild. It's like me with the pink t shirt. You're attaching connotations to something that simply aren't there for anyone else. As was said before, there's a theme park in Orlando called Wet and Wild. How many parents do you think avoid bringing their kids to the park cos of it's innuendo?

For the record tho, the only social/sports group I have any experience of is Wet and Wild. It's great for meeting gay men and women in a social setting. But if you go to any of their events with the sole intention of meeting someone to get with you, won't fit in. I would imagine a lot of the groups are the same.

Good advice generally.

On your last point, I think that point (not to go to these things with the sole intention of meeting somebody) applies to life generally.

The best way of meeting somebody is to stop looking for somebody, and instead just try to be as interesting and open minded to new experiences and people as possible.

The more people you meet, the more you are likely to meet the one. And the more interesting you are, the more likely you are to engage him and keep his interest.

And a positive outlook and attitude is much more attractive than a negative and reluctant one.

feardeas

Hi

Can relate somewhat to how the op feels as I was somewhat similar in the past. However as I'm sure most people would say there are all sorts in the gay bars and clubs camp,masc,tall,small etc. There are all sorts in life in general.

As for wet and wild, look at their fb page, they are a sports activity group that all I could question is their fondness of doning wetsuits and hitting the waters of the Atlantic............ [never been on one of their events but know a few lads that have and its good craic]. Don't know if people meet other halves but if they do fair play sure lord look at all the people who go playing tag rugby during the summer, I'm sure lurking in some of their minds is the idea they might meet someone for whatever.

Takes a while to become comfortable with ourselves, when I did i began to pass little or no notice of whether someone is camp masc or whatever.

Also in my experience men think about sex quite a bit, be they straight, bi or gay.

Finally you have had a bf, you may very well find another one. decent lads of all sorts out there.

Good luck with it all.

Annasopra

eaglach wrote: »

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

You're completely overthinking a tiny minute insignificant detail of the name.

If you can't see beyond the name then you will continue to feel sorry for yourself forever to be honest.

Daith

I'm wondering what this thread would have been like if I didn't mention Wet and Wild.....

Rick_

At least you have tried going to a gay bar. It may not have been for you, but at least you gave it a go, which is a tough prospect for those that have never been. Have you ever considered going back and giving it another try, or even going to a different bar? You will see all types in a gay bar, but I actually think that you went in with such a negative feeling towards it, the camp stereotypes you have a dislike of stood out in your mind more than anything else and you allowed your mind to sour the memory of the night. Obviously not every person there was camp or effeminate so I would urge you to give the bars another go, and don't go in and be a wall flower either! Chat to people you aren't getting a 'camp' vibe from, but even if they are camp, or if a camp guy approaches you, it doesn't make them less of a human being and not worthy of your time. You might make a new friend out of them, someone you can socialise with on or off the scene, or they may even be someone that has a masculine, straight acting gay friend who could introduce the two of you. You won't know until you try.

There are dating sites, POF and OKCupid! being the least sleazy of them (in my experience), Gaydar being one of the most sleazy (in my experience) and the rest in between. But there is no set place for you to find a partner, each one has as much chance as the other, be it a website, gay social group, a local coffee shop, a museum... I myself am currently in a relationship (at long last!) with a wonderful guy and we are very happy together. Where did we meet? It started off as a random chat on Grindr one night. Grindr. A gay cruising app. I never used the app for sex, as like you, I find that whole side of the gay culture to be sleazy and off-putting, but I did chat to guys on it when bored as a distraction, and look what happened. Two people who had a hell of a lot in common about everything in life started randomly chatting and got on so well they met up and have had the time of their lives in the last 3 months. You can find someone in the least likely of places if you open yourself up to the possibility of it. If you harbour negative thoughts about things like bars or gay groups then you'll never get anywhere as statistically these are the places you will be most likely to have success in meeting someone. As another poster has already said, the world isn't going to change to accommodate you. You are the one that has to make the effort. The first place to start is with yourself. Sort out in your head that the scene is gonna be camp in some way, but that's life. So what? Once you accept that then you can visit the scene and enjoy it in a way you haven't been able to before. Hell, at one point I felt the same as you. I didn't want to go anywhere near the scene as all I had ever heard was stories about how camp it was, how effeminate the guys were and how sex obsessed it was. But I realise now this was all coming from jaded people who were sick of the scene either because they had been there so often it didn't offer them anything new, or they were guys who had never been or only been once or twice and instantly formed a negative opinion of it, probably because of what they were told beforehand too! It's a vicious cycle!

Regards showing your face, you will probably find that people online will not accept excuses for not showing face pics. You say it is career orientated, but I've had a gay cop show me his face pics (and other things besides). I am not sure what career would make it wrong for you to show your identity online. I find that a lot of less experienced gay guys have the same thoughts about people finding out who you are and 'exposing you', but in doing so they'd expose themselves so that's not gonna happen. Your parents and family aren't on these gay sites, so who cares if a face pic is shown, all they have is a face and a username. What can they do with that?

To sum up, all of your situation seems to be stemming from your own hang-ups over campness, innuendo laden names and fear of being front page news in your local paper. All of these things are in your control and you yourself have to get over them and realise they do not affect your life in any way but you are choosing to let them. Until you do that you are doomed to repeat the same steps over and over until you look back at your post history on here and your life in general and realise you wasted so much time complaining about your situation and not doing anything about it, and that is time you'll never get back. If you want your life to improve then go and do something about it, and do it now.

Aard

Daith wrote: »

I'm wondering what this thread would have been like if I didn't mention Wet and Wild.....

Likely not incredibly different. OP just looking for excuses not to step outside his comfort zone.

eaglach

Aard wrote: »

Likely not incredibly different. OP just looking for excuses not to step outside his comfort zone.

Not helpful at all.

What I don't get is why I am seen as the one who is wrong here everytime. Is it so hard to believe that someone is not interested in these places or activites?

Look at it this way, imagine a straight person having to go to special clubs or bars to meet potential partners. This is not the case. Of course, they have the option to use dating sites or joining social groups for these purposes, but most people don't have to do this. Straight people can go about their normal day and potentially meet a partner.

Now you might say a gay person can meet someone in their normal day, but for me this is unlikely. I think I have a broken gaydar.

Look, I get that there's no changing this situation and the only way to deal with it is to get out there and interact with the gay community or whatever, but it's just frustrating that we have to do that, to go out of our way to meet potential partners. So yeah, I guess this is a venting session. Sorry.

Oh and on the point of showing my face online, it's not that I don't show my face to people, I just don't advertise it if you get what I mean. As long as I know that the person is not connected with my workplace I don't mind.

baby and crumble

eaglach wrote: »

Look at it this way, imagine a straight person having to go to special clubs or bars to meet potential partners. This is not the case. Of course, they have the option to use dating sites or joining social groups for these purposes, but most people don't have to do this. Straight people can go about their normal day and potentially meet a partner.

Actually, that's basically what straight bars are. And waaaaay more people than you think are on dating sites, trust me. All you have to do is go to PI here to see how difficult people find it to meet people, regardless of sexuality.

eaglach wrote: »

Now you might say a gay person can meet someone in their normal day, but for me this is unlikely. I think I have a broken gaydar.

Look, you're just making excuses now. I'm sorry but you are. I'm terrible with the whole gaydar thing too but if I was single I'd just have to deal with it. I met my gf doing voluntary work in college. One of my friends met her gf in work. Another met his boyfriend through mutual friends.

If you don't ask someone out, if you don't risk rejection, if you don't try new activities or going new places your life is simply not going to change. You'll be back in a year bitching about it. You need to act for change. As trite as that sounds.

Ten of Swords

eaglach wrote: »

Look, I get that there's no changing this situation and the only way to deal with it is to get out there and interact with the gay community or whatever, but it's just frustrating that we have to do that, to go out of our way to meet potential partners. So yeah, I guess this is a venting session. Sorry.

Everyone has to do that, regardless of sexuality. If you don't put yourself out there and take a little risk now and then nothing will happen for you and you will be in the exact same situation next year, and the year after and so on.

You've tried a gay bar and didn't like it, OK, maybe that one wasn't for you - try another one. They're not all the same and can cater for a wide range of clientele.

You don't like the thought of joining a club or society, again OK but don't get hung up on the name for fuсk sake.

You want to meet nice guys on dodgy websites and it does happen, rarely. So you can either continue to roll the dice on these sites and hope it comes good for you again or be pro-active, you don't need a good gaydar to meet nice guys, just some self confidence and common sense. A defeatist attitude is very offputting.

J_E

eaglach wrote: »

Look, I get that there's no changing this situation and the only way to deal with it is to get out there and interact with the gay community or whatever, but it's just frustrating that we have to do that, to go out of our way to meet potential partners. So yeah, I guess this is a venting session. Sorry.

Oh and on the point of showing my face online, it's not that I don't show my face to people, I just don't advertise it if you get what I mean. As long as I know that the person is not connected with my workplace I don't mind.

I would say if anything, it's far easier to hook up being gay with the amount of people on phone apps. If you don't want to show your face, just say you'll send pic in messages after gauging someone or after they send theirs to you, problem solved. Going to have to get a little uncomfortable if you want things to progress.

If you want a middle of the line bar that isn't 'camped up', Front Lounge is a good place to start. Ideally, you might want to adjust your mindset on the whole 'straight-acting' thing though. Being afraid of someone who is camp (and don't get me wrong, not being attracted is not the same as being afraid) is a reflection of insecurity.

floggg

eaglach wrote: »

Not helpful at all.

What I don't get is why I am seen as the one who is wrong here everytime. Is it so hard to believe that someone is not interested in these places or activites?

Look at it this way, imagine a straight person having to go to special clubs or bars to meet potential partners. This is not the case. Of course, they have the option to use dating sites or joining social groups for these purposes, but most people don't have to do this. Straight people can go about their normal day and potentially meet a partner.

Now you might say a gay person can meet someone in their normal day, but for me this is unlikely. I think I have a broken gaydar.

Look, I get that there's no changing this situation and the only way to deal with it is to get out there and interact with the gay community or whatever, but it's just frustrating that we have to do that, to go out of our way to meet potential partners. So yeah, I guess this is a venting session. Sorry.

Oh and on the point of showing my face online, it's not that I don't show my face to people, I just don't advertise it if you get what I mean. As long as I know that the person is not connected with my workplace I don't mind.

The reason you are seen as being in the wrong is because you continually ask for the same advice and continue to ignore the advice then given. Advice that has worked well for each and every one of the rest of us.

That, and the fact that you continue to believe in and repeat the same naive/ignorant mis-characterisations about gay people and the gay community, and refuse to acknowledge the realities of the LGBT community which the rest of us all see and live.

I don't know about the girls here, but a lot of the gay men on this forum have been in a similar headspace to you in terms of wanting to disassociating ourselves with the supposed campiness and feminist of the gay scene and other gay people. We did so out of a fear that this is how we would be seen by others, and maybe worse by ourselves, by association. Giving into the glittery side would mean we'd stop being ourselves and just become another limp wristed poof as far as the world was concerned.

And a lot of us also liked the comfort of the closet and didn't want to leave it.

But we all came to the realisation that we had to get over that **** if we didn't want to end up all alone and miserable for the rest of our life.

So we did something about it. It wasn't necessarily easy but we did it.

You don't seem to be willing to do anything about your situation, yet expect us to provide you with a solution to your problem.

And you refuse to acknowledge that maybe the problem could be with you, and your attitudes and insecurities, rather than being the gay scenes for being too gay, or life for dealing you a bum hand.

When I finally acknowledged I was gay and came out, the first 12 months were hard at times. I too hated the fact that I had to go make a new social circle, go to special clubs just to meet guys, change things in my life when others didn't have to. The first time I went to a gay event I walked him in tears - not because I didn't enjoy it but because I was so pissed off with the fact I had to jump through all these hoops that my straight friends didn't.

But I also knew there was no way around it and I had to do it. Unless I wanted to stay lonely and miserable I had to change my life and get out there. Even if I hated it at the time, I knew that it was necessary and worth it, and that I would be extremely unlikely to regret any of it.

And I don't. I'm so glad that I did it. If was tough but even during the toughest times in my first 12 months I was happier for having decided to finally live my life for me then I ever was living in the apparent comfort of the closet. What's more I grew to love the extra community I now had, even if all aspects of it weren't for me. I love that I can walk into a tiny gay bar anywhere in the world and automatically be a part of a community.

So nobody blames you for feeling the way you do. And we know it can take time to work your way through all those issues.

Your problem is not wanting to work through then. Not recognising it's your **** that you need to get over and that life won't get better until you change something. If you don't want to change and are more comfortable in the closet that's fine, but make peace with what you are CHOOSING to give up for it. And don't expect life to provide happiness for you when you are choosing to turn your back on the opportunities to pursue it.


As for the online profile pics, that's up to you what you do. Just so you know though, if I was on a dating site/app I generally wouldn't give a guy without a pic a second look. Lots of guys would have the same attitude.

Generally, those are the guys that want a proper, healthy, and functional relationship. Probably the type of guys you might look for.

Well grounded guys who want something real and meaningful tend to look for guys who have their **** together. I generally presume a guy who isn't willing to show his face and just interact normally doesn't have his **** together.

So as long as you value your privacy over everything else, that attitude is going going to put off a lot of the better men before you even begin.

baby and crumble

floggg wrote: »

I don't know about the girls here, but a lot of the gay men on this forum have been in a similar headspace to you in terms of wanting to disassociating ourselves with the supposed campiness and feminist of the gay scene and other gay people. We did so out of a fear that this is how we would be seen by others, and maybe worse by ourselves, by association. Giving into the glittery side would mean we'd stop being ourselves and just become another limp wristed poof as far as the world was concerned.

When I first came out I was TERRIFIED of being like the stereotypical butch women I'd see in The George in the early 2000's. Short spiky hair, terrible dress sense, check shirts, whose only flirting tactic seemed to be staring angrily at other women. I was 19/ 20 and convinced that 'those women' were 'giving us a bad name'. Basically, I was being a f*cking little brat. I was also scared that I might be a bit like them. (With better hair though. )

It's not just guys that don't like the extreme gender stuff, trust me. Butch women get just as sh*t as camp guys do. We're the more visible side of things, most of us can't 'pass' for straight to save our lives. And we all know that a lot of the community resents us, for being who we are. I get it- I DID it, but at some stage you have to realise that a community is made up of lots of different types. And we all deserve a space. Even though I understand it, I do get annoyed with people like the OP and my younger self for being so hung up on appearance and mannerisms. You may be missing out on meeting amazing friends, lovers, partners by not wanting to be associated with 'that kind' of gay. You're a 'normal' gay, right? Not one of 'them'.

Sorry. That was probably a bit off topic. I've only had about 3 hours sleep and got shouted at in the street the other day so I'm a bit sensitive.

Rick_

floggg wrote: »

<snip>... Giving into the glittery side... <snip>

Sorry, I had to laugh. I love this!

OP, I was like you when I was in my late teens and early 20's. Seriously, I was. But I did eventually realise that unless I did something then nothing was gonna change and that life wasn't gonna modify itself just for me. So, I put my face pic on my online profiles, I tried talking to anyone and everyone on dating sites, I went to a gay bar, terrified, but I went, I approached guys, I got over the fact that some guys are 'a bit girly' (I think I have mellowed and perhaps at times acted a bit girly myself, usually with drink involved though!)... Essentially I took all that negative shíte I was harbouring and just let it go and do you know something? I am much happier and healthier for it and I'm so glad I did it. If I could go back and shout at my younger self and tell him to do it sooner I would. Life is too short for hang-ups on little things.

Honestly, this advice gets trotted out constantly to every user who posts it, (I myself made threads like yours on here a few times and was told the same thing), and the reason why it is given out is because it is the truth and it works if you follow it. It took me a while before it sank in, I dealt with it and then followed it, but it does work. I hope that soon enough you realise that and do something about it, so that in time to come you yourself are a much happier person for it and you'll be on here one day telling the next guy about what he should be doing and how it changed his life for the better.... just like I'm doing for you now.

eaglach

floggg wrote: »

That, and the fact that you continue to believe in and repeat the same naive/ignorant mis-characterisations about gay people and the gay community, and refuse to acknowledge the realities of the LGBT community which the rest of us all see and live.

How have I mis-characterised gay people?

floggg wrote: »

You don't seem to be willing to do anything about your situation, yet expect us to provide you with a solution to your problem.

Well originally I was asking for advice, but now I realise it was really just me venting my frustration rather than seeking advice.

floggg wrote: »

And you refuse to acknowledge that maybe the problem could be with you, and your attitudes and insecurities, rather than being the gay scenes for being too gay, or life for dealing you a bum hand.

I don't know what insecurities you are talking about. If it's me not showing my face on dating websites, well as I've mentioned before, it's a career thing.

floggg wrote: »

Well grounded guys who want something real and meaningful tend to look for guys who have their **** together. I generally presume a guy who isn't willing to show his face and just interact normally doesn't have his **** together.

Actually, I think quite the opposite. Any of the decent guys I have met from these websites don't have a face pic on their profile. In fact, if I see someone with a face pic I would be much less likely to talk to them! I know I'll be in for a barrage of criticism now.

I've found most of the guys with face pics are quite open with their sexuality, which is why they show their face, but are also pretty camp. I don't know if it was the luck of the draw, or if it is generally like that, but that's how I perceived it.

Meanwhile, guys that don't have a face pic up are mostly masculine, somewhat closeted guys. They are in the same position as me and I can relate to them.

lyinghere

I'm saying this with hind sight but it's really pretty arrogant almost to assume that everyone that goes to gay bars is camp and not masculine like you. I used to think that but I don't anymore, camp people are so obvious they are going to stand out more but behind that there is most likely many non camp men if that is what your are looking for.

I think the pity is that some gay men end up going to gay bars alone because they've no gay friends, I hope you take some steps to change that by taking up advise given here so that you maybe could make a few gay friends you enjoying going out with and maybe the whole gay scene won't seem so awful then. Never know you might even meet someone as well as having a good night out.

It's up to you. Will seem like effort at first. Most people will tell you it's worth it though.

J_E

eaglach wrote: »

How have I mis-characterised gay people?

Actually, I think quite the opposite. Any of the decent guys I have met from these websites don't have a face pic on their profile. In fact, if I see someone with a face pic I would be much less likely to talk to them!

I've found most of the guys with face pics are quite open with their sexuality, which is why they show their face, but are also pretty camp.

The advice from previous posts that I have tried is going to the gay bars, which I didn't like. I guess I could try clubs and societies, but to be honest it is all very "fruity", no offence. I mean with a name like "Wet and Wild", seriously?

I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

Hmm, I wonder how you have... With that attitude, I wouldn't be in any rush to date you, sorry. Just giving you the 'other side' here.

So apparently being out is somehow unattractive, because obviously they must be camp, 'fruity' and undesirable, not anything to do that they've gotten over their hangups. Right. Yeah. Maybe I need to lift boulders or something. That's totally masc, right guys?

I used to talk to someone with a similar sort of attitude and he was insufferable. Complained non stop about nobody being out there and dismissing any opportunity to get to know people and placing most guys he didn't even talk to in boxes depending on how they looked. Why bother if you're refusing to examine yourself? What are the bets you tried one gay bar and left after about 5 minutes and decided they were all like that? This whole thread makes me quite angry. It's one thing having some obstacles in finding your identity. It's another to consistently label other people and dismiss everything you're given.

lyinghere

Also. I just had a look back at some of your previous posts, no idea why you have not tried the meet ups if you have not before. If your not in you can't win. The thought of going to a gay bar used to scare the bejaysus out of me now I don't bat an eyelid going. I don't know where I would be with the coming out process right now without the help of them.

Annasopra

eaglach wrote: »

Well originally I was asking for advice, but now I realise it was really just me venting my frustration

That sounds to me like an easy way for you to opt out of listening to any of the responses.

If you're not willing to listen to any of us, and you are continuously looking for excuses to stay inside your comfort zone, what exactly do you expect?

floggg

eaglach wrote: »

How have I mis-characterised gay people?



Well originally I was asking for advice, but now I realise it was really just me venting my frustration rather than seeking advice.



I don't know what insecurities you are talking about. If it's me not showing my face on dating websites, well as I've mentioned before, it's a career thing.



Actually, I think quite the opposite. Any of the decent guys I have met from these websites don't have a face pic on their profile. In fact, if I see someone with a face pic I would be much less likely to talk to them! I know I'll be in for a barrage of criticism now.

I've found most of the guys with face pics are quite open with their sexuality, which is why they show their face, but are also pretty camp. I don't know if it was the luck of the draw, or if it is generally like that, but that's how I perceived it.

Meanwhile, guys that don't have a face pic up are mostly masculine, somewhat closeted guys. They are in the same position as me and I can relate to them.

You are repeatedly doing mischaracterising the community - whether it be your comments on the supposed campiness of the clientele of gay bars, the fruitiness of clubs and societies, or your views on guys who are open with their sexuality.

I assure I have never once in my life being called camp or fruity, and yet I have formed part of every one of those scenes at various points (gay bars, clubs and societies and a confident and secure gay men who isn't afraid to show his face or identify as such).

We have all experienced the same bars, clubs, societies you have, used the same apps, met the same types of people. We know your experiences aren't true to ours, so either the universe aligned to give you a truly misrepresentative view of each of these things, or else the issue is your perception.

As for your insecurities, your posts all scream insecure gay man who hasn't accepted his sexuality - regardless of what he might tell himself.

You seem to actively dislike "camp" guys (there's a preference and then there's the guys who avoid like the plague), fear or are uncomfortable associating with anything "camp", "fruity" or just openly gay and seem to be uncomfortable with gay guys who are comfortable with their sexuality and aren't afraid who knows it. And you seem to have a crippling fear of being outed or being seen as gay (crippling in that instead of living life you are stuck in the same rut and doing nothing to change it).

All that screams to me somebody who still really isn't comfortable or accepting of their sexuality. As I said most of us went through it, so I know the signs well.

The discomfort with "camp" and "fruitiness" is usually a fear of guilt by association - that when people realise your gay that's how you will be seen and so you push hard against it. It reminds you that you are different and you will always be different no matter how hard you pretend otherwise.

And closeted guys are preferable for guys in that boat because there is less chance of them outing you. They are in the same boat. And they will put just as much energy in as you in denying their gay, masking anything that will give them away to others and remind you of what you both are, and what you're being together really is.

With openly gay guys (regardless of camp or not) there are too many reminders that they are gay, and too many associated risks. And they won't be as willing to hide and sneak around, and so will challenge the closeted bubble you live in and put you in awkward positions.

I use "you" in the general sense above, and not refer to you OP specifically. I have never met you so I can't say the above necessarily applies to you. But certainly from here it seems like it very will could.

The alternative is (and I don't mean this to be insulting or get personal) that you just have a really ****ty and entitled outlook on life. You have extremely specific preferences in terms of friends and relationships and won't even make any effort to interact with people or scenes that don't fit them, you are very self entitled and expect life to be on your terms and don't believe you should have to make any compromises for your wants and needs to become attainable, you are judgmental and superficial and refuse to reconsider your first impressions of people or places and get to really know them, and you are a bit of a prude.

Again, I don't say any of that to be critical, mean or insulting. I mean it as constructive criticism.

Either way, it's something you should take on board - to either work on the insecurities or adjust your attitude to life.

eaglach

lyinghere wrote: »

I'm saying this with hind sight but it's really pretty arrogant almost to assume that everyone that goes to gay bars is camp and not masculine like you.

Well it's pretty ignorant for you to assume that I believe that. I didn't say everyone is camp and not masculine.

lyinghere wrote: »

Also. I just had a look back at some of your previous posts, no idea why you have not tried the meet ups if you have not before.

Well seeing as how I am being received here, I don't think I'd be too welcome!

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

That sounds to me like an easy way for you to opt out of listening to any of the responses.

If you're not willing to listen to any of us, and you are continuously looking for excuses to stay inside your comfort zone, what exactly do you expect?

I have no expectations.

floggg wrote: »

You are repeatedly doing mischaracterising the community - whether it be your comments on the supposed campiness of the clientele of gay bars, the fruitiness of clubs and societies, or your views on guys who are open with their sexuality.

I assure I have never once in my life being called camp or fruity, and yet I have formed part of every one of those scenes at various points (gay bars, clubs and societies and a confident and secure gay men who isn't afraid to show his face or identify as such).

We have all experienced the same bars, clubs, societies you have, used the same apps, met the same types of people. We know your experiences aren't true to ours, so either the universe aligned to give you a truly misrepresentative view of each of these things, or else the issue is your perception.

As for your insecurities, your posts all scream insecure gay man who hasn't accepted his sexuality - regardless of what he might tell himself.

You seem to actively dislike "camp" guys (there's a preference and then there's the guys who avoid like the plague), fear or are uncomfortable associating with anything "camp", "fruity" or just openly gay and seem to be uncomfortable with gay guys who are comfortable with their sexuality and aren't afraid who knows it. And you seem to have a crippling fear of being outed or being seen as gay (crippling in that instead of living life you are stuck in the same rut and doing nothing to change it).

All that screams to me somebody who still really isn't comfortable or accepting of their sexuality. As I said most of us went through it, so I know the signs well.

The discomfort with "camp" and "fruitiness" is usually a fear of guilt by association - that when people realise your gay that's how you will be seen and so you push hard against it. It reminds you that you are different and you will always be different no matter how hard you pretend otherwise.

I will be honest and say I don't like being associated with the campness of the gay community. It's synonymous with gay culture. Look at 99% of references to it in media. It's all limp wristed, pink wearing sex mad men. I know that isn't how it is in reality, but that's the message the public is receiving.

You're even promoting it yourselves with the ridiculous Gay Pride Parade. It's not helping anyone. You're trying to show we're normal like everyone else by (some people) parading around in S&M gear? Can you blame me for not wanting to be associated with it? It's fine if that's what you're into, but it's not me.

You might think this is me being insecure about my sexuality, but that certainly is not the case. I am very accepting of it. I have told most of my friends that I am gay. I even went out on a number of occassions with my friends and my boyfriend in tow.

floggg wrote: »

And closeted guys are preferable for guys in that boat because there is less chance of them outing you. They are in the same boat. And they will put just as much energy in as you in denying their gay, masking anything that will give them away to others and remind you of what you both are, and what you're being together really is.

With openly gay guys (regardless of camp or not) there are too many reminders that they are gay, and too many associated risks. And they won't be as willing to hide and sneak around, and so will challenge the closeted bubble you live in and put you in awkward positions.

Yes, I will say that I would be uncomfortable in going out with a fully out gay guy. Why? As I mentioned before, I don't want it to get back to my workplace, or even my housemates.

In my last relationship it was very difficult for this reason. He was in the same position as me. Out to most of his friends, but not his work or housemates. For this reason we had to stay in the shadows. We couldn't even be "alone" together in case our housemates found out. It was very stressful. But there was no other option.

floggg wrote: »

The alternative is (and I don't mean this to be insulting or get personal) that you just have a really ****ty and entitled outlook on life. You have extremely specific preferences in terms of friends and relationships and won't even make any effort to interact with people or scenes that don't fit them, you are very self entitled and expect life to be on your terms and don't believe you should have to make any compromises for your wants and needs to become attainable, you are judgmental and superficial and refuse to reconsider your first impressions of people or places and get to really know them, and you are a bit of a prude.

Extremely specific preferences? I don't see how. I'm just don't "get on" with camp guys. That's not meant as a negative statement by the way. It's just like how some people don't get on with nerdy types, or really sporty types. Sometimes two types of people just don't click. I don't see that as having an entitled outlook on life. I see it as reality.

baby and crumble

eaglach wrote: »

I will be honest and say I don't like being associated with the campness of the gay community. It's synonymous with gay culture. Look at 99% of references to it in media. It's all limp wristed, pink wearing sex mad men. I know that isn't how it is in reality, but that's the message the public is receiving.

I actually think you're wrong. Perhaps 10 or 20 years ago that was the case, but right now the overwhelming press is about people wanting equal rights.

eaglach wrote: »

You're even promoting it yourselves with the ridiculous Gay Pride Parade. It's not helping anyone. You're trying to show we're normal like everyone else by (some people) parading around in S&M gear? Can you blame me for not wanting to be associated with it? It's fine if that's what you're into, but it's not me.

Again, when was the last time you actually went to Pride? It is now a family event with very strict rules about costumes. It is overwhelmingly just regular Joes and Jane Soap's marching to show they they will not be kept silent about the fact that there are many many rights that we don't have simply because we're gay or trans.

eaglach wrote: »

You might think this is me being insecure about my sexuality, but that certainly is not the case. I am very accepting of it. I have told most of my friends that I am gay. I even went out on a number of occassions with my friends and my boyfriend in tow.

eaglach wrote: »

Yes, I will say that I would be uncomfortable in going out with a fully out gay guy. Why? As I mentioned before, I don't want it to get back to my workplace, or even my housemates.

Dude, what you have written there directs contradicts itself. Seriously, you say you're fine with your sexuality, yet the people you live with every day don't know. You are out to "most" of your friends. That doesn't scream security in your sexuality to me, frankly.

eaglach wrote: »

In my last relationship it was very difficult for this reason. He was in the same position as me. Out to most of his friends, but not his work or housemates. For this reason we had to stay in the shadows. We couldn't even be "alone" together in case our housemates found out. It was very stressful. But there was no other option.

Yes there was. Come out. There's always another option.

eaglach wrote: »

Extremely specific preferences? I don't see how. I'm just don't "get on" with camp guys. That's not meant as a negative statement by the way. It's just like how some people don't get on with nerdy types, or really sporty types. Sometimes two types of people just don't click. I don't see that as having an entitled outlook on life. I see it as reality.

It actually seems like you've still got 'school' mentality. You know, putting people into their social groups. The nerds can't talk to the jocks, or other such rubbish.

eaglach

baby and crumble wrote: »

I actually think you're wrong. Perhaps 10 or 20 years ago that was the case, but right now the overwhelming press is about people wanting equal rights.

I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.

baby and crumble wrote: »

Again, when was the last time you actually went to Pride? It is now a family event with very strict rules about costumes. It is overwhelmingly just regular Joes and Jane Soap's marching to show they they will not be kept silent about the fact that there are many many rights that we don't have simply because we're gay or trans.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_gay_pride_2013_%289172218799%29.jpg

baby and crumble wrote: »

Dude, what you have written there directs contradicts itself. Seriously, you say you're fine with your sexuality, yet the people you live with every day don't know. You are out to "most" of your friends. That doesn't scream security in your sexuality to me, frankly.

Most of my friends, yes. I have told the people that it is actually relevant to. Maybe the first couple of times I did it because I needed to get it off my chest, but now I don't actively go around telling people as I don't see the point in "coming out" to friends for no reason. Now I say it only if it casually comes up in a conversation.

baby and crumble wrote: »

Yes there was. Come out. There's always another option.

I feel you haven't been reading my posts. I can't tell everyone in case it gets back to my workplace.

As for my housemates, one of them is very homophobic and I can't afford to lose the house I'm living in.

baby and crumble wrote: »

It actually seems like you've still got 'school' mentality. You know, putting people into their social groups. The nerds can't talk to the jocks, or other such rubbish.

Friendships are made when you are able to relate closely to another person. Common interests and attitudes are big factors in forming relationships.

lyinghere

eaglach wrote: »

I recently tried to go to a gay bar, but I didn't like it one bit. I would consider myself a very masculine guy and I am not into the campness of the gay scene. It's not a slight against camp guys, but I am just attracted to masculine guys, that's all.

eaglach wrote: »

Well it's pretty ignorant for you to assume that I believe that. I didn't say everyone is camp and not masculine.

Based on your own quote above I dont think i was making a rude assumption that you think all the guys in gay bars are camp. you said it yourself.

eaglach wrote: »

Well seeing as how I am being received here, I don't think I'd be too welcome!

You are just self pitying now. You would be welcome.

baby and crumble

eaglach wrote: »

I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.

Blaine, Karofsky, Santana, Brittany, and others: "Glee".

Thomas: "Downton Abbey"

Many of the characters in Orange is the New Black

Omar "The Wire."

Tara and Willow "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

Both main characters in "Weekend"

Frank, "The Vicar of Dibley"

Very few of the characters of "The L Word" were stereotypical.

Harry, "Mamma Mia!"

Ennis & Jack, "Brokeback Mountain"

Gareth & Matthew, "Four Weddings & A Funeral"

Allen Ginsberg, "Kill your Darlings"

To name a few. Ok, some of the plot points in these tv shows or movies relate to them being gay, but that's just realistic. It's hard to have a long running gay character and not address the fact he or she is gay, same as with a straight character.

eaglach wrote: »

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_gay_pride_2013_%289172218799%29.jpg

That's not S&M. That's basically just guys in short shorts. You see worse (TRUST ME) on beaches throughout the world. They're not overtly sexual- there's no gimp masks, chains, dildo's, or anything else. I don't have a problem with that picture representing A FACET of the community. I think the majority of people can differentiate a couple of exhibitionist from the entire group of people. You don't assume ALL priests are abusers, you don't assume ALL Muslims are terrorists, you don't assume ALL Catholics are republican, etc. Well, at least you shouldn't.

eaglach wrote: »

I feel you haven't been reading my posts. I can't tell everyone in case it gets back to my workplace.

As for my housemates, one of them is very homophobic and I can't afford to lose the house I'm living in.

Then that's a choice YOU make, to live with a homophobic person. If you were really bothered and wanted to be out and comfortable, you'd tell him, or move. I've been in that situation, and I had to make a choice.

As for your work situation, as far as I could read in your other posts you're not working in an environment where you could be fired for being gay- fair enough if you are a teacher or hospital worker. But you are still making the choice to curb your chances of meeting someone for a relationship by not being out. There are many, many men who would not be ok with being closeted so much by their boyfriend. These are the guys who may be most looking for a relationship rather can casual shags, which is what you have complaining about.

eaglach wrote: »

Friendships are made when you are able to relate closely to another person. Common interests and attitudes are big factors in forming relationships.

OK. I agree, to a point. But these "camp" men you talk about how do you know they don't have similar interests? Looking at me, you would probably label me as a butch, stereotypical lesbian. From that initial assessment you'd assume I was into sports, like butch lesbians are meant to be. Into DIY like butch women are meant to be. But I am really interested in fashion, baking, sewing, I am banned from DIY because I'm so bad at it, and I'm sure some people are surprised by all that. But if you just passed me in the street or saw me in a bar, you'd assume I was a stereotypical butch lesbian. Which, whatever, I don't care who thinks I'm what, but I'm just trying to point out that looks and initial appearances can be deceiving, and dismissing a chunk of people because of your assumptions is wrong.

J_E

eaglach wrote: »

I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_gay_pride_2013_%289172218799%29.jpg

Give yourself a pat on the pack for picking out ONE part of pride, again making it out that the whole gay community is like that. Pretty fed up of your antics now, it's obvious you're infallible here, wish you the best of luck with dating because I think with the way you carry on, you might need it.

floggg

baby and crumble wrote: »

Blaine, Karofsky, Santana, Brittany, and others: "Glee".

Thomas: "Downton Abbey"

Many of the characters in Orange is the New Black

Omar "The Wire."

Tara and Willow "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

Both main characters in "Weekend"

Frank, "The Vicar of Dibley"

Very few of the characters of "The L Word" were stereotypical.

Harry, "Mamma Mia!"

Ennis & Jack, "Brokeback Mountain"

Gareth & Matthew, "Four Weddings & A Funeral"

Allen Ginsberg, "Kill your Darlings"

To name a few. Ok, some of the plot points in these tv shows or movies relate to them being gay, but that's just realistic. It's hard to have a long running gay character and not address the fact he or she is gay, same as with a straight character.

Oberyn, Loras - Game of Thrones

Most of the Cast of Looking - an entire show about gay dating, very few stereoptyically camp characters

Nashville - Will (Gay country and western star)

Rosie - Corination Street

Mitch - ParaNorman (children's animated move)

Gobber - How to train your dragon (another kids animated movie)

Syed & Christian - Eastenders

Captain Russell - Brooklyn Nine Nine

Frank Underwood - House of Cards (he's ****ing boss!)


it's harder to name the stereotypical characters these days. You're seeing what you want to see dude.

floggg

eaglach wrote: »

I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.

This has been fairly well picked apart at this point.

eaglach wrote: »

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_gay_pride_2013_%289172218799%29.jpg

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1100-1/photos/1332161425-london-school-of-samba--st-patrick-days-parade-2012_1113751.jpg

I guess the Dublin St Patricks day parade is a sex filled orgy. One picture proves it all, eh?

Endotoxin

Join the front runners! Great way of meeting guys from all walks of life.

Aard

Aren't you just legitimising your housemate's homophobia by tolerating (and dare I say accepting) it OP?

You expect other gay people to blaze the trail and do the hard work for you.

floggg

eaglach wrote: »

Well it's pretty ignorant for you to assume that I believe that. I didn't say everyone is camp and not masculine.

Just going off your own words here.

eaglach wrote: »

Well seeing as how I am being received here, I don't think I'd be too welcome!

Believe it or not, everybody is trying to help you. We are getting frustrated because you don't want to help yourself. But I am sure you would be very welcome, as long as you are there with an open mind.

eaglach wrote: »

I have no expectations.

You should expect more from life. it's out there, and available for the taking. you just have to step out of your comfort zone and actually do something to help yourself obtain it.

eaglach wrote: »

I will be honest and say I don't like being associated with the campness of the gay community. It's synonymous with gay culture. Look at 99% of references to it in media. It's all limp wristed, pink wearing sex mad men. I know that isn't how it is in reality, but that's the message the public is receiving.

You're even promoting it yourselves with the ridiculous Gay Pride Parade. It's not helping anyone. You're trying to show we're normal like everyone else by (some people) parading around in S&M gear? Can you blame me for not wanting to be associated with it? It's fine if that's what you're into, but it's not me.

You might think this is me being insecure about my sexuality, but that certainly is not the case. I am very accepting of it. I have told most of my friends that I am gay. I even went out on a number of occassions with my friends and my boyfriend in tow.

I don't mean to be rude or glib here, but the fact that you think bringing your bf out with your friends is such a big sign kind of says it all. when you are truly comfortable in your self, you should see that as a given!

As for your comments on pride, as i said before:

floggg wrote: »

Why in the world would a community that developed for the purpose of allowing LGBT people to be comfortable and safe in expressing their identity and sexuality have to censor their sexuality out of the picture.

What kind of horrible repressed world would that be.

Straight people don't censor the sex out of society (there's even subtle sexual innuendos in children's cartoons - animaniaca was ripe with them when I was a kid). And yet we have to?

And for whose benefit? Who exactly are we promoting it to and how will that promotion benefit from censuring ourselves?

I presume it's can't be for gay peoples own sake.

If you subscribe to the view that gay people should conform to straight society and tone down their gayness to be accepted by straight people, then you should realise the absurdity of that argument.

If LGBT people are only "accepted" as long as the conform and hide the sexual part of their sexuality, then they aren't accepted at all. They are just tolerated as long as they abide by the majority's terms.

LGBT people will only be accepted for who and what they are when they are free to be who and what they are openly and without fear of being censured or discriminated against.

So the "conform to be accepted" argument is just so ridiculous that it shouldn't even need to be explained.

If it's not for you, fine. The idea that any display of sexuality in Pride (which are really such a very very small minority of participants) is holding is back is just absurd and illogical.

And honestly, I saw as much flesh at the St Patrick's day parade last year as I did at Pride.

eaglach wrote: »

Yes, I will say that I would be uncomfortable in going out with a fully out gay guy. Why? As I mentioned before, I don't want it to get back to my workplace, or even my housemates.

In my last relationship it was very difficult for this reason. He was in the same position as me. Out to most of his friends, but not his work or housemates. For this reason we had to stay in the shadows. We couldn't even be "alone" together in case our housemates found out. It was very stressful. But there was no other option.

Yes, there was another option. Two of them actually - either come out or find a more tolerant place to live. You made a choice - you chose to stay closeted in order to retain your house mates approval and acceptance.

Unless you have very specific and unique living and working circumstances (even if the career that's so important to you pays you buttons, I've been on minimum wage and still managed to pay my rent and stand on my own two), you could have done things differently.

Honestly, you say you accept yourself, yet you chose to hide your relationship in the shadows and live a lie just o you could retain your room mates approval. You weren't showing very much respect for yourself, your bf or your relationship if you chose to put your house mates acceptance over all three.

eaglach wrote: »

Extremely specific preferences? I don't see how. I'm just don't "get on" with camp guys. That's not meant as a negative statement by the way. It's just like how some people don't get on with nerdy types, or really sporty types. Sometimes two types of people just don't click. I don't see that as having an entitled outlook on life. I see it as reality.

The extremely specific preferences was only applicable in the event you wereent actually insecure in your sexuality. I don't mean to offend, but I am firmly of the belief that you are just insecure. The reason you don't want to associate with camp guy seems to have little to actually do with the camp guys, but an awful lot about what you fear it might say about you.

In any event, categorically stating you won't get along with X group just comes across as very narrow minded and a form of bigotry. You are pre-judging people based on one characteristic. Camp is only one aspect of a person's personality and character.

As for the entitled outlook on life, while you have no revised this as a rant, you started this thread to ask how to meet guys, without actually being willing to do anything to help yourself do so. it seems you expected that you could stay in your comfort zone and still have what you wanted out of life.

that's not going to happen.

so your choice is either your career and your house mates approval, or your happiness.

it's up to you which you choose. i really hope you make the right choice. believe me, the former path can lead you in a very dark direction. I'm yet to meet somebody who regretted choosing the latter though.

eaglach

There's a lot to get through here so bear with me.

lyinghere wrote: »

Based on your own quote above I dont think i was making a rude assumption that you think all the guys in gay bars are camp. you said it yourself.

Once again, read what I said. I said the campness of the scene, not that all gay guys are camp. Stop putting words in my mouth.

baby and crumble wrote: »

To name a few. Ok, some of the plot points in these tv shows or movies relate to them being gay, but that's just realistic. It's hard to have a long running gay character and not address the fact he or she is gay, same as with a straight character.

I haven't seen most of them as they are aren't exactly my type of shows. I will have to take your word for it.

baby and crumble wrote: »

That's not S&M. That's basically just guys in short shorts.

Sorry, here you go: http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.1448041.1372521585!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_940/image.jpg

baby and crumble wrote: »

Then that's a choice YOU make, to live with a homophobic person. If you were really bothered and wanted to be out and comfortable, you'd tell him, or move. I've been in that situation, and I had to make a choice.

Yes, I am making this choice. But it's a logical choice. If I tell him it wouldn't make things any better. If I move I'm hardly going to tell the person renting the house I am gay before moving in, so I'll be back to the same position I am in at the moment.

baby and crumble wrote: »

As for your work situation, as far as I could read in your other posts you're not working in an environment where you could be fired for being gay- fair enough if you are a teacher or hospital worker.

No, I would not be fired. But who is to say that certain co workers have a grudge against homosexuals? Maybe my manager is a homophobe? I could easily be passed for promotion on this basis, or even let go under another premise.

Cydoniac wrote: »

Give yourself a pat on the pack for picking out ONE part of pride, again making it out that the whole gay community is like that. Pretty fed up of your antics now, it's obvious you're infallible here, wish you the best of luck with dating because I think with the way you carry on, you might need it.

I am getting tired of people not listening to me. I never said the whole community is like this. How can I get it through to your thick skulls? I know it's only a part of the community, but it's how the community is perceived.

Who remembers the "average" guys in the gay pride parade? No one.
Who remembers the guy in the S&M gear? Everyone!

floggg wrote: »

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1100-1/photos/1332161425-london-school-of-samba--st-patrick-days-parade-2012_1113751.jpg

I guess the Dublin St Patricks day parade is a sex filled orgy. One picture proves it all, eh?

But who is she representing? Look at it this way, if she was representing nurses, or teachers, how does dressing up like that showcase whatever they are trying to showcase. I'm sure she was there purely as "eye candy" as that is what the parade is about. Entertaining the audience.

Is the Gay Pride parade there to allow some people display their sexual fetishes? No. It's there to try and integrate the community, unless I am sorely mistaken.

floggg wrote: »

Just going off your own words here.

Nope. See above.

floggg wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude or glib here, but the fact that you think bringing your bf out with your friends is such a big sign kind of says it all. when you are truly comfortable in your self, you should see that as a given!

You're being very flippant. Look, coming out and being gay may be a cake walk for you, but for others it's not so easy. And for your information, it is a big sign. What's bigger than coming out to your closest friends and for them to accept you?

floggg wrote: »

Yes, there was another option. Two of them actually - either come out or find a more tolerant place to live. You made a choice - you chose to stay closeted in order to retain your house mates approval and acceptance.

Unless you have very specific and unique living and working circumstances (even if the career that's so important to you pays you buttons, I've been on minimum wage and still managed to pay my rent and stand on my own two), you could have done things differently.

Honestly, you say you accept yourself, yet you chose to hide your relationship in the shadows and live a lie just o you could retain your room mates approval. You weren't showing very much respect for yourself, your bf or your relationship if you chose to put your house mates acceptance over all three.

See my comments previously.

floggg wrote: »

The reason you don't want to associate with camp guy seems to have little to actually do with the camp guys, but an awful lot about what you fear it might say about you.

It is partly about what people may think about me, yes.

floggg wrote: »

so your choice is either your career and your house mates approval, or your happiness.

it's up to you which you choose. i really hope you make the right choice. believe me, the former path can lead you in a very dark direction. I'm yet to meet somebody who regretted choosing the latter though.

Seeing as most of my life revolves around my workplace and my home, how can I not choose the former?

baby and crumble

eaglach wrote: »

Is the Gay Pride parade there to allow some people display their sexual fetishes? No. It's there to try and integrate the community, unless I am sorely mistaken.

You are mistaken. It's about creating awareness of the lack of equality for the LGBT community.

It's about a fun day out for anyone who wants to come- a lot of marchers are straight.

It's about celebrating who we are instead of being made feel ashamed.

I can see that you have no intention of listening or hearing what we are saying. From my reading of your posts I have come to the following conclusions:

1) You are happy to stay semi-closeted. Well done, you are more than welcome to do so. But staying in because you MIGHT have a homophobic colleague or boss is, frankly, just an excuse. Unless you are in a particular religion based company, you cannot be fired or passed over because of your sexuality. It's illegal, and 90% of employers have specific inclusionary policies now.

2) You want to find a man who is confident in himself, who is masculine (rather than camp), you want to not engage in one night stands or random sh*gs. Fair enough.

3) You have shot down EVERY SINGLE SUGGESTION the posters have given you. Gay bars are too camp, sports clubs sound "fruity", you don't want to have to join special clubs to meet gay people, even though you say yourself your gaydar sucks. Yet you don't want to take any risks to change your situation. You seem to think the perfect man will fall into your lap or something, and be perfectly happy to stay semi-closeted in your life, not able to hold hands or sleep together in his boyfriends house. That's just a silly situation.

4) You seem to think that straight people don't have to use internet dating sites, or go to particular bars to meet people and score, or join clubs and societies dedicated to their hobbies. THEY DO. Do you think that straight people want their workplace to know they're on the pull on Plenty of Fish? Probably not, but you know what? Most people are grown up about it.

5) You have major issues with the scene, with the perceived sexualisation of the scene, and what people are going to think of YOU because some guy on a parade wears leather. Hey, guess what? The leather scene is a big cultural and historic part of the LGBT community. They have just as much a right to be part of or community as you do. As the Dykes on Bikes do, as the S&M aficionados do, as the teenybopper twinks do. I don't have anything much in common with those groups but I don't bitch about their inclusion in a community that is just as much theirs as it is mine.

With that, I bid farewell. You are not in the frame of mind to take our well intentioned suggestions now, nor have you ever been. Sit, moan, vent, whinge about how left out you feel. See how attractive that makes you to other guys.

floggg

eaglach wrote: »

There's a lot to get through here so bear with me.



Once again, read what I said. I said the campness of the scene, not that all gay guys are camp. Stop putting words in my mouth.



I haven't seen most of them as they are aren't exactly my type of shows. I will have to take your word for it.



Sorry, here you go: http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.1448041.1372521585!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_940/image.jpg



Yes, I am making this choice. But it's a logical choice. If I tell him it wouldn't make things any better. If I move I'm hardly going to tell the person renting the house I am gay before moving in, so I'll be back to the same position I am in at the moment.




No, I would not be fired. But who is to say that certain co workers have a grudge against homosexuals? Maybe my manager is a homophobe? I could easily be passed for promotion on this basis, or even let go under another premise.



I am getting tired of people not listening to me. I never said the whole community is like this. How can I get it through to your thick skulls? I know it's only a part of the community, but it's how the community is perceived.

Who remembers the "average" guys in the gay pride parade? No one.
Who remembers the guy in the S&M gear? Everyone!



But who is she representing? Look at it this way, if she was representing nurses, or teachers, how does dressing up like that showcase whatever they are trying to showcase. I'm sure she was there purely as "eye candy" as that is what the parade is about. Entertaining the audience.

Is the Gay Pride parade there to allow some people display their sexual fetishes? No. It's there to try and integrate the community, unless I am sorely mistaken.



Nope. See above.



You're being very flippant. Look, coming out and being gay may be a cake walk for you, but for others it's not so easy. And for your information, it is a big sign. What's bigger than coming out to your closest friends and for them to accept you?



See my comments previously.



It is partly about what people may think about me, yes.



Seeing as most of my life revolves around my workplace and my home, how can I not choose the former?

I'm not going through it all so here's a couple of bullet points:

* we all face those risks in work. There are frankly fairly slim these days. If anything most employers err on the side of not pissing of the LGBT worker just in case they land themselves with a discrimination action.

But you're circumstances aren't any different to the rest of us.

* on accomodation, if you think it will be an issue when viewing a place or interviewing perspective room mates, you casually mention something like "is there any issue if I was to have a boyfriend over". Better to find out there and then if it will be an issue then had to spend your time sneaking around.

* coming out was hard as hell for me. How about reading some of my posts. I knew at the time it would be worth it, and I knew the alternative was a dark and scary option.

* you might think I was being glib, and it was a milestone for us all to bring a partner out for the first time. But ultimately it shouldn't be a big deal. It's only significant for most of us because it was the first time. It's normal and expected. What type of relationship would you be in where you couldn't. So in that context, the fact that you saw it as such a big sign of your acceptance is reflective that of where your head is at. You don't see it as mundane. It should be.


* pride is about saying we are here, we are proud of who we are, and we don't feel we should have to hide how we are in order or conpromise in order to gain your acceptance. So basing your costume choice on what you think will be most palatable to straight people goes against the whole point of pride.

It was the drag queens, the camp men, the butch dykes and the exhibitionists who started off the whole gay pride and rights movement after all. Look up stonewall and the history of the gay rights movement.

And as I've said before, if you have to play down aspects of who you are as a community in order to be accepted then you aren't accepted.

* given you are unhappy with the consequence of your choice, it doesn't seem all that logical to the rest of us.

*if most of your life revolves around work and housemates who don't even know (and may not accept) the real you, then you should seriously take up a new hobby or interest. Apart from any LGBT club or society. You need an outlet though.

Look at the end of the day it's a choice you are making. If you are happy with it, then fine.

However, having been in your shoes, there is little you can say that would persuade us your making the right or logical choice.

We've been there, we know the reasons against coming out and dealing with your sexuality. And we know the benefits of doing so. If you ask for advice we will always give you the same advice because it's tried and tested, and always proves correct.

Likely it's not really us you are trying to convince anyway - it's yourself.

I doubt you are going to change your mind on this now. You are too entrenched in your views.

Just know that it won't get better if you continue the way you are. It gets harder the longer you continue lying about who you are and sneaking around. Luckily you are somewhat out to friends so have people you can talk to.

Ultimately though there may well come a time when, for your own mental and emotional health, you need to make some changes in your life.

We will be there for you when your ready (and as long as you are open minded and willing to take on board what we say we'll be here in the interim too). Until then, remember that you have options and that friends, housemates or a career aren't worth much to you if you aren't happy with your life outside of work.