Apprenticeships

The Diabolical Monocle

Is 4 years really necessary to qualify as a tradesperson.

Granted its a skill, it has to be learned. Surely 2 years would be enough, 1 in the school, maybe even 2, then on to a year (or 6 months if 2 years training in school option taken) as a trainee in a company, under the watchful eye of an experienced worker.

Carpenter

I think it should be 5 and not a day less

The Diabolical Monocle

Carpenter wrote: »

I think it should be 5 and not a day less

Carpenters always want an unreasonable number.

jellyboy

Bondage gimp takes a year ..

6months on the crash course..



p.s not a lot of sitting down afterwards though

kneemos

Anybody I've ever seen on an apprenticeship was doing everything except apprenticeship work.

AndyBoBandy

If anyone had 'learned' their trade in only 2 years, I certainly wouldn't let them near anything I was involved with.

SEPT 23 1989

Apprenticeships seemed to be looked down upon in certain quarters in this country unlike Germany where they are valued greatly

AnonoBoy

I think 4 years is about right.

I don't want some dude messing around with the plumbing in my gaff unless he's been trained properly!

Riddle101

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Apprenticeships seemed to be looked down upon in certain quarters in this country unlike Germany where they are valued greatly

Australia as well.

salmocab

4 years is just about enough but it takes another 6 before you are really proficient. Even then you never stop learning.

Santa Cruz

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Apprenticeships seemed to be looked down upon in certain quarters in this country unlike Germany where they are valued greatly

Get a nice permanent pensionable job on €25,000 a year. Then pay a €50 call out charge for the local plumber when the jacks is blocked

ryan101

4 should be the min. for any trade, but it should be quality training not just time served lip service to some cowboy.

dodderangler

Bad enough there's lads out there with 10 years ruins who still can't do a fcukin thing right.
Cowboys ted. Flipping cowboys

crockholm

Over the years the amount of time spent on apprentichships has been reduced,way back when,it used to be 7 years-then up to about 2-3 generations ago it Went to 5 years and now it ranges between 3.5-4.5 years.

First you learn how to do things,then you learn how to do things fast enough(at the accecptable standard) to be profitable. In between there is problem solving solutions that need to be memorised and adapted for later Life.

I Think that I once read that there are only about 30 recognized trades in Ireland whereas in Germany there are over 200.

I would recommend to any newly-qualified tradesmen to take a journeyman period for about 2 years if possible.

kneemos

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Get a nice permanent pensionable job on €25,000 a year. Then pay a €50 call out charge for the local plumber when the jacks is blocked

What exactly is the call out charge for or how did it come about?

ryan101

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Get a nice permanent pensionable job on €25,000 a year. Then pay a €50 call out charge for the local plumber when the jacks is blocked

You really don't know anything about plumbing do you ?

Santa Cruz

kneemos wrote: »

What exactly is the call out charge for or how did it come about?

I don't know how it started but its a minimum payment to cover the tradesman from timewasters. It's charged on top of any labour costs

Santa Cruz

ryan101 wrote: »

You really don't know anything about plumbing do you ?

More than you obviously

ryan101

Santa Cruz wrote: »

More than you obviously

Explain.

Years ago I knew an Apprentice Bricklayer who use to give our yard at being made learn fancy brick arches and so on which he reckoned he would never use in real life, yet he was never more proud when he build a fabulous fire place for a family member. Most apprentices are highly skilled it take years to be expert.

There are tones of Bricklaying apprentice's in London look at the Indeed website, they would be so sought after here yet in London there not very rated.

salmocab

Call out covers traveling to the job,plus usually a fixed amount of time say first half hour up to 2 hours, then if it turns out that its a non job as some times happens. A tradesman needs to get payed for his time as well as his knowledge and skills, also companies need to cover costs of specialist equipment and vans diesel insurance etc.

Santa Cruz

ryan101 wrote: »

Explain.

Why should I. You're the one that questioned my knowledge of plumbers? On what grounds.

ryan101

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why should I. You're the one that questioned my knowledge of plumbers? On what grounds.

Thought as much

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Apprenticeships seemed to be looked down upon in certain quarters in this country unlike Germany where they are valued greatly

Very old fashioned idea.

That's not true if you advertised for an apprentice on fas or what ever you would be over whelmed by the response especially if it was something that had potential good earning and you could emigrate with it.

The only problem with the trades is that they are like the 7 years of feast followed by 7 years of famine.

Santa Cruz

ryan101 wrote: »

Thought as much

Just proves my point thank you.

Call Me Jimmy

Plumb-off! Only way to settle it lads

Santa Cruz

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Plumb-off! Only way to settle it lads

Ball cocks at 50 (metric or imperial, challenger's choice)

Outkast_IRE

It took me over 5 years to get through my plumbing apprenticeship due to the backlog waiting for spots for phase 2, 4 and 6 with fas and colleges.

It was only towards the 5 year mark that i would call anyone competent and there is still plenty more to learn after that. Its a job where if you are not continuously learning then you are doing it wrong.

lintdrummer

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Is 4 years really necessary to qualify as a tradesperson.

Granted its a skill, it has to be learned. Surely 2 years would be enough, 1 in the school, maybe even 2, then on to a year (or 6 months if 2 years training in school option taken) as a trainee in a company, under the watchful eye of an experienced worker.

I'm currently in an aircraft maintenance apprenticeship and I can assure you that after 4 years I will absolutely not have learned everything there is to know about aircraft maintenance. There's a huge amount of learning involved, from aerodynamics, physics, materials and hardware to legislation, engines and electronics. That's probably half of the course work topics. And we need to know it to the highest European standards. 75% pass mark in our exams and rightly so.
Then factor in learning the actual physical skills of the trade.
4 years is barely enough.

The Diabolical Monocle

lintdrummer wrote: »

I'm currently in an aircraft maintenance apprenticeship and I can assure you that after 4 years I will absolutely not have learned everything there is to know about aircraft maintenance. There's a huge amount of learning involved, from aerodynamics, physics, materials and hardware to legislation, engines and electronics. That's probably half of the course work topics. And we need to know it to the highest European standards. 75% pass mark in our exams and rightly so.
Then factor in learning the actual physical skills of the trade.
4 years is barely enough.

Aircraft maintenance might be a bit more involved/advanced.
Than say pluming or bricklaying.

HoggyRS

I think apprenticeships are being less looked down on now that they are less easy to get. I'm serving my time with a large contractor and most of the apprentices have spent time at 3rd level before starting out and a few of us actually have degrees. Schools will tell everyone to fill out the CAO and go to college no matter what, keep their own stats high but they should try help some young people to be getting apprenticeships rather than wasting their time with college courses which offer little realistic chance of decent employment.

lintdrummer wrote: »

I'm currently in an aircraft maintenance apprenticeship and I can assure you that after 4 years I will absolutely not have learned everything there is to know about aircraft maintenance. There's a huge amount of learning involved, from aerodynamics, physics, materials and hardware to legislation, engines and electronics. That's probably half of the course work topics. And we need to know it to the highest European standards. 75% pass mark in our exams and rightly so.
Then factor in learning the actual physical skills of the trade.
4 years is barely enough.

75% (or is it 70?) pass mark in all trades.

lintdrummer

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Aircraft maintenance might be a bit more involved/advanced.
Than say pluming or bricklaying.

Every skill takes years to perfect. People who start apprenticeships are generally complete novices in the field. In this country we train or skilled tradesmen and women to a very high standard, an internationally recognised fact. Look up world skills competition results and see for yourself.
While there may be more book learning in aircraft maintenance, there is much more practical skill required to be a good plumber / carpenter / block layer. There is an art involved in performing these jobs properly.
People like to think they could do these things themselves and be wonderful at it, but the truth is there are so many little tricks and bits of knowledge that you learn over the years as an apprentice that are invaluable in carrying out the job properly.

crockholm

lintdrummer wrote: »

Every skill takes years to perfect. People who start apprenticeships are generally complete novices in the field. In this country we train or skilled tradesmen and women to a very high standard, an internationally recognised fact. Look up world skills competition results and see for yourself.
While there may be more book learning in aircraft maintenance, there is much more practical skill required to be a good plumber / carpenter / block layer. There is an art involved in performing these jobs properly.
People like to think they could do these things themselves and be wonderful at it, but the truth is there are so many little tricks and bits of knowledge that you learn over the years as an apprentice that are invaluable in carrying out the job properly.

Well said !!
And may I just Point out to people that Ireland has a magnificent record in lintdrummers own trade ( Gold medal in London?).
Keep up the great work!

Wompa1

Most college courses don't need to be 4 years either..it's all money

salmocab

Wompa1 wrote: »

Most college courses don't need to be 4 years either..it's all money

Either? not sure many here think 4 years for an apprenticeship is too long.

Shakespeare's Sister

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Is 4 years really necessary to qualify as a tradesperson.

Granted its a skill, it has to be learned. Surely 2 years would be enough

It seems no, two years is not enough.

Wompa1

salmocab wrote: »

Either? not sure many here think 4 years for an apprenticeship is too long.

You're right. Sorry, went on the phone as I hit send.

Should have said, Many college courses shouldn't be 4 years long. Apprencticeships at is practical learning of a skill. You go to college, learn what they think it important even though they don't work in the Industry and then you need to get re-trained upon leaving

The Diabolical Monocle

Magaggie wrote: »

It seems no, two years is not enough.

It seemed 4 was not enough at one time. Thats why we question.

Granted bricklaying is a skill, I think 3 years should be enough given the nature of the work. Thats not to say its easy.
I also think 4 years should be enough for a business degree, and if it took 8 Id ask why too.

HoggyRS

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

It seemed 4 was not enough at one time. Thats why we question.

Granted bricklaying is a skill, I think 3 years should be enough given the nature of the work. Thats not to say its easy.
I also think 4 years should be enough for a business degree, and if it took 8 Id ask why too.

It would be fair to say it takes longer to become competent in some trades than others. I mean its probably harder to become a competent instrument tech or aircraft mechanic than a painter or lagger

kierancos

Sorry to bring up an old-ish thread, but I'm doing the leaving at the moment, have an electrical apprenticeship sorted out with a very big company. I'm afraid that when I start the apprenticeship, that I won't be able to do a lot of stuff, and will end up 'making the tae for a year'. Should i try get experience over the Summer, so I'll have some idea when I start the apprenticeship? Thanks

HoggyRS

kierancos wrote: »

Sorry to bring up an old-ish thread, but I'm doing the leaving at the moment, have an electrical apprenticeship sorted out with a very big company. I'm afraid that when I start the apprenticeship, that I won't be able to do a lot of stuff, and will end up 'making the tae for a year'. Should i try get experience over the Summer, so I'll have some idea when I start the apprenticeship? Thanks

If you're serving your time with a big company, then as a first year you can expect to spend alot of doing **** work e.g cleaning, pulling and tying cables, general donkey work. However if you pay attention, work hard and show interest any half sound foreman or chargehand or spark your working under will you give you the opportunity to try your hand at more interesting or challenging work as your time progresses.

Theres no need to get previous experience before you start your time, youre not expected to know anything so you'll be grand going in with an open mind.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Well they are learning a trade for life I suppose. Some could say a person on grant assistance doing a bullsh1t 4 year Arts Degree is a complete waste of time and resources. (Coming from a person who did HPSS in UL without the grant)

Most people in my class including myself went on to study further in fields that would provide employment.

salmocab

don't worry about experience thats what the apprenticeship is for, first year will have lots of cleaning up fetching and carrying but it will also have bits and pieces of real electrical work mainly helping your sparks. Just take it all in and don't be found standing around, if your finished what your doing and there is nobody to say whats next find something, clean up or tidy around foremen or charge hands usually hate seeing apprentices standing around.

kierancos

Thanks for all the quick replies! I don't want to go to college, as I don't want to spend four years studying and the possibility of having to drop out is too high IMO. Also, one more question, does the FAS rates apply all the time? I read somewhere that the rates can depend on the company? Obviously you have to get played at least 240€ a week for electrical, but for bigger companies, might they pay you more? Thanks

crockholm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

It seemed 4 was not enough at one time. Thats why we question.

Granted bricklaying is a skill, I think 3 years should be enough given the nature of the work. Thats not to say its easy.
I also think 4 years should be enough for a business degree, and if it took 8 Id ask why too.

Given that you mentioned bricklaying,I will impart what I Little I know of it.In order to do most of what you would be expected in house building today,3 years could probably suffice.In the 4th year cycle you do many types of work not generally used in building today-axed camber arch-semi-elliptical arch and 3 types of gothic arches.
It is having the knowledge how to do them is certainly an advantage.

And also bearing in mind that many other aspects of the trade are not touched upon, eg vaults,niches,tuck-pointing and Florentine arches to name a few.

To the Young man worrying about making the tea-etc. etc.as part of his electricians apprenticeship, use the time to Watch what they do and don't be afraid to ask them why they are doing what they do.That first year will go quickly and you will have a hellava lot more knowledge than just making the tea.

Sir Osis of Liver.

kierancos wrote: »

Sorry to bring up an old-ish thread, but I'm doing the leaving at the moment, have an electrical apprenticeship sorted out with a very big company. I'm afraid that when I start the apprenticeship, that I won't be able to do a lot of stuff, and will end up 'making the tae for a year'. Should i try get experience over the Summer, so I'll have some idea when I start the apprenticeship? Thanks

I served my time as an electrician with a large company and never had to 'make tae'.Four years of an apprenticeship is about right,but its after that you really start to learn.Enjoy your summer off,you have the apprenticeship sorted,you'll probably never have a chance of 3 months holidays again.

2011

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Is 4 years really necessary to qualify as a tradesperson.

That depends on very much the trade.

Most electricians will tell you that they learn most of what they know about the trade in the first 4 or 5 years after they have completed their apprenticeship.
This is recognised by employers which is why it takes 5 years post apprenticeship experience to reach "full proficiency" as an electrician.
So in other words it takes 9 years to reach to the top pay grade as an electrician (based on TEEU rates).
It is one of those trades where it is impossible to come close to "knowing it all" and no matter how much you learn it keeps changing as new technologies develop.

As electricity has the potential to kill and destroy property I think that you would find that most people would not be comfortable with someone qualifying to be an electrician in anything less than 4 years.

IMHO some electricians that could do with serving their time again as I would not trust them to change a light bulb

Surely 2 years would be enough, 1 in the school, maybe even 2, then on to a year (or 6 months if 2 years training in school option taken) as a trainee in a company, under the watchful eye of an experienced worker.

I worked in the Netherlands and Germany on large projects as an electrician.
In the Netherlands they have a similar attitude to yours (short apprenticeship) which is why many of the large projects are run by project managers, supervisors and foremen by people with a trades background from countries where the duration of apprenticeship is four years.
Needless to say many of them are Irish.

Would you also think that a degree should be 2 years instead of 4?

I assume that you do not have a trades background?

Sir Osis of Liver.

2011 wrote: »

IMHO some electricians that could do with serving their time again as I would not trust them to change a light bulb

Couldn't agree with you more.We seemed to churn out a lot of half-baked electricians in the good times.Ive worked with lads over the years I wouldn't trust to wire a Sacred Heart lamp.

pappyodaniel

I was mad keen into my apprenticeship when I was a lad until I got to phase 4 (college).

Phase 4 and phase 6 is where I honed my talents for drinking and womanizing. The most challenging part of these block releases was getting up in the morning after drinking and riding until the sun came up. When I look back now I don't know how I done it.

Sir Osis of Liver.

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I was mad keen into my apprenticeship when I was a lad until I got to phase 4 (college).

Phase 4 and phase 6 is where I honed my talents for drinking and womanizing. The most challenging part of these block releases was getting up in the morning after drinking and riding until the sun came up. When I look back now I don't know how I done it.

Drinking and riding is an integral part of the training.

A Greedy Algorithm

FAS is/was a god send to young men around the country for many years. Instead of lumping blocks around a site all day for 200 euro a week, they got to spend the days trying to chat up the apprentice hair dressers and get a free hair cut whilst also honing their 'drink all night and get up for work the next day' skill.