Electrical plugs (Split from National Postcodes to be introduced)

Victor

Posts split from this thread: National Postcodes to be introduced

This thread for electrical plugs only.

Moderator

Impetus

Impetus wrote: »

*Except in the obsolete 50 year old legacy system used by Royal Mail.

I don't understand why some people believe that the UK postcode system is obsolete as it is in constant use and does what it was intended to do!

Yes, it's a legacy system just like 230v 50hz is the legacy voltage in houses, but it does the job it was intended to do even if there are better* ways to do it now.

*depends of your definition of better.

Impetus

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand why some people believe that the UK postcode system is obsolete as it is in constant use and does what it was intended to do!

The British postcode system is obsolete because it was designed when computing power was expensive and in typical British fashion is totally at odds with the system used in the rest of Europe. Despite its complex structure its resolution is limited to pointing to about 25 buildings. Mail sorting and most forms of address usage are international quantities.

Postal sorting equipment sold over the past 10 years or more do not sort by postcode - because it is inaccurate in terms of recognition accuracy and typos. If you enter AB23 4GU into a website or computer application based on the British system you will still have to enter the building number or house name, and sometimes even select the street. The British address structure is long and very often does not fit in the address space used in most computer systems used in the rest of Europe or the US.

For every postal address one only needs

Building number STREET NAME
POSTCODE TOWN/CITY NAME

In a properly organised system that is enough to find an address. Anything more is gilding the lily.

The British has a similar non-standard problem with phone numbers way back. The area code was not published in the phone book - because each number's area code varied depending on where you were calling from. There was no national area code. In Ireland, area codes have always been standard and regionally grouped - eg 021 Cork City 022 Mallow 023 Bandon 024 Youghal 025 Fermoy etc. One of the English area codes for an area was usually based on the alpha numeric dial - eg Newcastle was 0NE2 (0632). This all had to be dumped.

It seems to me that the powers that be in Ireland and Britain are mentally deficient when it comes to organising things simply and effectively!
You will experience the same typos with the eircode system, because they constitute a meaningless complex jumble of alpha and numeric characters.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, it's a legacy system just like 230v 50hz is the legacy voltage in houses, but it does the job it was intended to do even if there are better* ways to do it now.

The British use 230 VAC 50Hz as a result of an EU directive. However they use 3 pin flat plugs that are totally different from those used in the rest of Europe. Result - the Brits have heavy clumpy mobile phone chargers to pack, and they need an adapter to charge their PC when travelling outside the country. A situation copied by another mal-administered colony next door!

Impetus

Impetus wrote: »

I searched my mind before posting along those lines to point out something British that is good (in the interests of balance) in terms of infrastructure or systems. I am still waiting for inspiration. Perhaps it will occur in a dream tonight? :-)

How about the national (electricity) grid?

Impetus

Deleted User wrote: »

How about the national (electricity) grid?

I don't know much about the GB.grid, aside from the fact that it is the least interconnected grid of any big country in Europe. Being an island is no excuse for that because the ideal location for HVDC cables is under water. No complaints about EMF or cities to bypass. Someone I know phoned me last month to announce that they were in a multi-day blackout they were experiencing in a city the size of Cork in GB. Luckily they had backup generators. Their ISP's national backbone was out the other day. Just as the company was updating their software from Windows Server 2003 and clients from XP to Win 7. (I did suggest to them to get a second ISP for their business some time ago....) No phones were working either.

Swissgrid.ch very often keeps Italy from blackout - selling them 2 or 3 GW. As I write this they are sending about 2GW to Germany as well as some power to Austria and Italy. See the real time map of Swissgrid at http://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/en/home.html

MBSnr

Impetus wrote: »

The British use 230 VAC 50Hz as a result of an EU directive. However they use 3 pin flat plugs that are totally different from those used in the rest of Europe. Result - the Brits have heavy clumpy mobile phone chargers to pack, and they need an adapter to charge their PC when travelling outside the country. A situation copied by another mal-administered colony next door!

Heading off topic but.... I read that is more to do with electrical ring mains being 32A and not 16A as per the rest of mainland Europe. Therefore to protect the device's cable if a fault arised, a 13A fuse was required in the plug - hence it's bulky design. Ireland tends to adhere to the BS standards and you end up with the plug we have.

I understand the ring main wiring was done that way as there was a shortage of suitable copper wire after WW2.

MBSnr

MBSnr wrote: »

Heading off topic but.... I read that is more to do with electrical ring mains being 32A and not 16A as per the rest of mainland Europe. Therefore to protect the device's cable if a fault arised, a 13A fuse was required in the plug - hence it's bulky design. Ireland tends to adhere to the BS standards and you end up with the plug we have.

I understand the ring main wiring was done that way as there was a shortage of suitable copper wire after WW2.

Correct, and the only part that applied to an EU directive was the harmonisation of the voltage at 230v UK/IRL were 240v and mainland EU was 220v.

Impetus

MBSnr wrote: »

Heading off topic but.... I read that is more to do with electrical ring mains being 32A and not 16A as per the rest of mainland Europe. Therefore to protect the device's cable if a fault arised, a 13A fuse was required in the plug - hence it's bulky design. Ireland tends to adhere to the BS standards and you end up with the plug we have.

I understand the ring main wiring was done that way as there was a shortage of suitable copper wire after WW2.

The trip switch / RCD is far faster and more sensitive than a fuse. The idea of having a fuse in a plug is obsolete. It is far safer to run a line from a trip switch to a device or group of sockets etc (than running a high amp cable all over the place).

Yet another case of Ireland (and GB) re-inventing the wheel, and getting it wrong in terms of best practice.

MBSnr

Impetus wrote: »

The trip switch / RCD is far faster and more sensitive than a fuse. The idea of having a fuse in a plug is obsolete. It is far safer to run a line from a trip switch to a device or group of sockets etc (than running a high amp cable all over the place).

Yet another case of Ireland (and GB) re-inventing the wheel, and getting it wrong in terms of best practice.

The need for a fused plug predates most domestic RCD installations..... The design of the plug had already been standardised. Did you expect them to bring out another design after RCD common usage? What about the thousands of houses without RCDs? Should they continue to use a different plug? Your argument about re-inventing the wheel is not valid here.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct, and the only part that applied to an EU directive was the harmonisation of the voltage at 230v UK/IRL were 240v and mainland EU was 220v.

No. Ireland had 230V while using the 13A plug.

In fact Ireland used the German (Siemans) system since the foundation of the ESB in 1927 when Siemens built Ardnacrusha, (as no-one else would). The German screw in main fuses and 15A plugs were installed - one fuse, one plug. Of course, houses only had about 2 or 3 plugs.

In the 1960s, grey imports of UK electrical stuff started getting installed in houses and British standards were installed as an option. [Mainly driven by availability and cost]. And so we had German fuse boards, and UK ring mains and plugs which gave rise to problems as the German fuses did not come in 30 amp, and so 25 amp fuses were used. Eventually the UK standards were adopted, but never the 240V.

Typical botch, just like trhe proposed postcode system. [Phew, back on topic!]:)

Sam Russell

MBSnr wrote: »

The need for a fused plug predates most domestic RCD installations..... The design of the plug had already been standardised. Did you expect them to bring out another design after RCD common usage? What about the thousands of houses without RCDs? Should they continue to use a different plug? Your argument about re-inventing the wheel is not valid here.

In fact the ring main was designed after WW II originally using a design of plug which was a variation on the 5A plug (still used for switched lamps). The live pin was replaced by a pin that screwed in to replace the live pin with a 13A fuse. Quite a neat design as the fuse could be replaced without opening the plug, but heavy cords were too much for it, so it was redisigned to the current design.

Edit: Just remembered the name D&S. Dorman & Smith plugs and sockets


http://www.fam-oud.nl/~plugsocket/DormanSmith1.html


Continental practice varies (as does plug design) but the fused plug is seen as dangerous almost everywhere, as the fuse causes heating in the plug and can cause a fire, even when operating below its limit. [I have seen a plug in my house catch fire like this - probably a poor fuse connection at 13A].

So not re-inventing, but poor design. Again, just like the proposed postcode system.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

In fact the ring main was designed after WW II originally using a design of plug which was a variation on the 5A plug (still used for switched lamps). The live pin was replaced by a pin that screwed in to replace the live pin with a 13A fuse. Quite a neat design as the fuse could be replaced without opening the plug, but heavy cords were too much for it, so it was redisigned to the current design.

And if used with a possibly vibrating device the fuse could work itself out of the socket and stay stuck in the live socket.

Sam Russell

MYOB wrote: »

And if used with a possibly vibrating device the fuse could work itself out of the socket and stay stuck in the live socket.

This is relation to the D&S 13A plug. Sorry for the off topic.

Yes, probably. Also, another design flaw, when the fuse blows on the iron (13A), you take the one from the radio (5A) and blow that one too. It has hopeless flaws and that is why it is no longer used. It was patented in 1943 and sold to local authorities for council houses, the sockets being a loss leader (very cheap). The tennants had to buy the overpriced plugs and fuses.

The current design (MK) was introduced in 1947, and was developed since. However, it still suffers from heating in the plug under heavy loads. It should be limited to 10A.

Carawaystick

Impetus wrote: »

However they use 3 pin flat plugs that are totally different from those used in the rest of Europe. Result - the Brits have heavy clumpy mobile phone chargers to pack, and they need an adapter to charge their PC when travelling outside the country.

I've a phone charger that's actually smaller than an ordinary 3-pin plug, so i'ts not a heavy clumpy phone charger.
I also have a blackberry 2 pin charger, from the continent, which is about twice as heavy and 4-5 times the size of the charger I use here.

Most laptops need an adaptor to charge, and it's usually much bigger than the plug.
Certain laptops have the adaptor built into the plug and the pin arrangement can be changed depending on which part of the world you visit.

Sam Russell

Apple are the masters of design. They have managed to get good design into what is a poor, clunky, (and chunky) MK design covered by BS1363.

My wife has a Nokia phone with a micro USB cable connector. The unit has a folding earth 'pin' (its plastic) that slides away. Very neat, but not as nice as Apple produce.

Europlug produce quite a nice adapter that can change a French style two-pin into a 13A plug.

murphaph

3 pin plugs hurt like f**k when you stand on an upturned one in your bare feet as well.

Impetus

MBSnr wrote: »

The need for a fused plug predates most domestic RCD installations..... The design of the plug had already been standardised. Did you expect them to bring out another design after RCD common usage? What about the thousands of houses without RCDs? Should they continue to use a different plug? Your argument about re-inventing the wheel is not valid here.

Ireland should have remained with the CEE 7/4 (5) plug, as used in most other European countries - including: Albania, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Chile, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Iran, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Romania, Russia,[37] Serbia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, and Uruguay. My parents' house in Ireland was wired with them when I was a child. Then the BS1363 device arrived, compliments of the British dictatorship. These plugs overheat even with 13A 230VAC loads - I suspect because the socket is badly designed (flush), which required them to put insulation on the plug prongs after children started getting electrocuted from playing with the 3 pin flat plug. The current carrying capacity is just borderline in terms of amp carrying capacity as a result.

It was cheapo thinking, typical British save money, poor engineering to come up with this "system", just as trip switches were starting to spread. They ran a single 32A cable around the place instead of low amp wiring relevant to each socket or device. Trip switches were originally patented in 1879.

As a result, victims of BS1363 plugs have to carry around massive mobile phone chargers and PC power supplies when travelling, together with adapters. The BS1363 sockets look clumpy and ugly in a house or office - not unlike the plugs that go into them. It increases the cost of producing electrical goods for the Irish market (in the same way as producing right hand drive cars) because they all have to be fitted with a non-standard power connector. Ditto for facotry made furniture such as bathroom cabinets and kitchen cabinets made in Germany or France, which often incorporate 2 pin sockets - useless for most Irish sold appliances.

If there is a really dumb, non-standard, re-invent the wheel way of doing things, you can be sure the British will invent it, and the Irish will copy it like zombies.

Ireland continues to use this dangerous standard which involves sending high amp current around the average house, needlessly. There is no shortage of copper. Irish electricians are so brainwashed by the mafia behind the British system, that many are unwilling to wire a house to European standards. Which forces one to bring an electrician from Germany or France, together with the kit to be installed, if one wants the job to be done properly in one's property.

salmocab

Ireland continues to use this dangerous standard which involves sending high amp current around the average house, needlessly. There is no shortage of copper. Irish electricians are so brainwashed by the mafia behind the British system, that many are unwilling to wire a house to European standards. Which forces one to bring an electrician from Germany or France, together with the kit to be installed, if one wants the job to be done properly in one's property.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain the this bit? Not being smart, genuinely wondering how you think Irish electricians should be wiring a house and what you mean by using european standards

Impetus

salmocab wrote: »

Can you explain the this bit? Not being smart, genuinely wondering how you think Irish electricians should be wiring a house and what you mean by using european standards

The typical continental model is to send a power feed, with as low amps as are required being fed at the other end, controlled by a circuit breaker/trip switch/RCD near the meter. Every socket or pair of sockets tends to have its own line back to the meter area in the rest of Europe.

In networking terms it might be called a star configuration. The British ring-main system copied in Ireland tends to use a high amp cable like a network wiring structure going from socket to socket. The fuse is far slower than a circuit breaker to turn the power off. With a working circuit breaker/RCD the fuse is wasted and time wasting.

It is not just in Europe. I recently bought some Daikin air conditioners made in Japan, and the wiring instructions was for each unit to be wired back to the trip switch - even they only consume about 700w.

Impetus

Impetus wrote: »

Ireland should have remained with the CEE 7/4 (5) plug, as used in most other European countries - including: Albania, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Chile, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Iran, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Romania, Russia,[37] Serbia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, and Uruguay. My parents' house in Ireland was wired with them when I was a child. Then the BS1363 device arrived, compliments of the British dictatorship. These plugs overheat even with 13A 230VAC loads - I suspect because the socket is badly designed (flush), which required them to put insulation on the plug prongs after children started getting electrocuted from playing with the 3 pin flat plug. The current carrying capacity is just borderline in terms of amp carrying capacity as a result.

It was cheapo thinking, typical British save money, poor engineering to come up with this "system", just as trip switches were starting to spread. They ran a single 32A cable around the place instead of low amp wiring relevant to each socket or device. Trip switches were originally patented in 1879.

As a result, victims of BS1363 plugs have to carry around massive mobile phone chargers and PC power supplies when travelling, together with adapters. The BS1363 sockets look clumpy and ugly in a house or office - not unlike the plugs that go into them. It increases the cost of producing electrical goods for the Irish market (in the same way as producing right hand drive cars) because they all have to be fitted with a non-standard power connector. Ditto for facotry made furniture such as bathroom cabinets and kitchen cabinets made in Germany or France, which often incorporate 2 pin sockets - useless for most Irish sold appliances.

If there is a really dumb, non-standard, re-invent the wheel way of doing things, you can be sure the British will invent it, and the Irish will copy it like zombies.

Ireland continues to use this dangerous standard which involves sending high amp current around the average house, needlessly. There is no shortage of copper. Irish electricians are so brainwashed by the mafia behind the British system, that many are unwilling to wire a house to European standards. Which forces one to bring an electrician from Germany or France, together with the kit to be installed, if one wants the job to be done properly in one's property.

Sounds like another anti British rant, just like the one in the post codes thread. The overheating of the plugs is more down to wear or loose terminal screws (something that can affect all rewire-able plugs. Electricians are free to choose whether to use a ring or star type topology, but the BS sockets are the national standard and should be adhered to to avoid the hassle of fitting adaptors (increase risk of fire) changing plugs or sourcing electrical equipment abroad.

Sam Russell

You are not allowed to wire your house as you see fit. You must stick to Irish standards (which are the same as the British ones - more or less) and failure to do so is likely to have ESB networks refuse to connect you (or disconnect you if they find out). You must now use a certified electrician (Irish) to do the work as the result of recent legislation.

In Switzerland, they tend to have a power socket incorporated in light switches (even in bathrooms). Quite a good idea since you have power there anyway.

So no two pin plugs allowed.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

No. Ireland had 230V while using the 13A plug.

Ireland was 220V up until the mid 90s. The UK was 240V.

I remember reading a booklet from the the ESB (I recall that it had a yellow cover) which stated that devices designed for 240V may not work on a 220V supply and that you should get written confirmation from the reseller or manufacturer that the device would work on 220V.

All irrelevant now anyway!

Impetus

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are not allowed to wire your house as you see fit. You must stick to Irish standards (which are the same as the British ones - more or less) and failure to do so is likely to have ESB networks refuse to connect you (or disconnect you if they find out). You must now use a certified electrician (Irish) to do the work as the result of recent legislation.

.......

So no two pin plugs allowed.

IRL = The brain dead three pin fuse in every plug dictatorship?

I am paying for it and it will be done to the best European standards. No dictatorship will stop me from applying the best standards. Why waste money wiring a house to obsolete standards which do not take account of the relative efficiency of a circuit breaker and RCD compared with a fuse? It is little different to Ireland requiring lead gasoline and 1950s style smog factory engines in modern vehicles.

I divide my time between various countries and have no intention of adapting interconnections, just because Ireland accidentally fell into a non-standard plug interface that is now obsolete.

L1011

Good luck getting the house connected to the network, you'll need it...

Impetus

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like another anti British rant, just like the one in the post codes thread.

We are big into anti-British rant claims in this territory. I did say in the other thread that I was trying to think of an area where the British excel. It came to me the other day - "appearances". Royal family pageantry and similar. They do it like no other country.

The only problem is that these appearances can be used to pull the wool over peoples' eyes. Just because one can put on a world class display involving some royals accompanied with their army trooping down some boulevard does not mean that you are a good engineer. Unfortunately in Britain most intelligent engineers are working in financial jobs in London - instead of less lucrative jobs like electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. GB has paid a big price as a result, and Ireland is paying the price whenever it copies second rate solutions devised by second class minds who have been programmed to do everything possible to be different (which often means anti-European) for the sake of it.

And a big price will be paid for the second rate Eircode system being foisted on the country because it comes with all the defects of Britain's refusal to adhere to European/international standards combined with some really stupid Irish "icing" (in the form of the randomisation of the premises code) [moving back to the real root of this topic for a second]

Impetus

MYOB wrote: »

Good luck getting the house connected to the network, you'll need it...

Perhaps I should take this as a threat?

Anyway it already has an electricity supply, and I would have no problem generating my own power if it came to it.

Sam Russell

I grew up believing the Roy of the Rovers line that the Spitfire was a better aircraft than the Mesherschmit 109. The Spitfire was undergunned and carried only 90 seconds (iirc) worth of machine gun fire while the M109 carried cannon aswell as machine guns. On a negative G dive, the carbarettas in the Spit cut the engine and caused a serious lack of power, while the M109 injection system continued in all circumstances.

However, the Spit excelled over the M109 in that they built 10 times as many of them, and out bred them. No matter how many Spits were lost during during the Battle of Britain, they were restocked overnight. They ran out of pilots, but not aircraft.

One thing the British are good at is propaganda.

murphaph

In fairness to the three pin plug, at least when it's in the wall socket it is a good tight fit. Compare this to the sh!te ones they use in North America (and elsewhere) that hang out of the socket half the bloody time. That's really poor design. Their whole system is even worse than ours...120VAC 3-wire single phase. Messy setup.

I have to say, I do find the system here in Germany pretty good. I used to think the safety shutter on UK type sockets was an advantage but you can now get sockets here with a similar shutter design, negating that single advantage.

Impetus

Sam Russell wrote: »

I grew up believing the Roy of the Rovers line that the Spitfire was a better aircraft than the Mesherschmit 109. The Spitfire was undergunned and carried only 90 seconds (iirc) worth of machine gun fire while the M109 carried cannon aswell as machine guns. On a negative G dive, the carbarettas in the Spit cut the engine and caused a serious lack of power, while the M109 injection system continued in all circumstances.

However, the Spit excelled over the M109 in that they built 10 times as many of them, and out bred them. No matter how many Spits were lost during during the Battle of Britain, they were restocked overnight. They ran out of pilots, but not aircraft.

One thing the British are good at is propaganda.

Propaganda is part of "appearances" in my books. Propaganda is generally composed of sound, video and pictures. Appearances includes these, as well as "the superior look of the place".

I have worked with numerous companies all over Europe, including Irish ones. I have come across a general ledger account entitled "Appearances" (as in an expense account devoted to spending on appearances) - except for one or two British companies. Presumably companies in other countries are more focused on specific expenditure like cleaning, painting and decorating, and similar....

Sam Russell

Impetus wrote: »

Perhaps I should take this as a threat?

Anyway it already has an electricity supply, and I would have no problem generating my own power if it came to it.

@Impetus

You might find this a starting point.

http://www.etci.ie/docs/certguide112009.pdf

Standards are not just for you, but those that follow you. You could wire according to French or some other standards, but electricians coming to repair, extend, or service the installation at a later date may be put in danger if they do not recognise or understand the installation. It may be possible to use a version of the Irish code that matches the French system. For example use only spurs, not ring-mains, with a single circuit-breaker per plug. There could be requirements that cannot be matched.

However, you are now required to use certified electricians, as you are required to use certified gas installers for gas.

Impetus

murphaph wrote: »

In fairness to the three pin plug, at least when it's in the wall socket it is a good tight fit. Compare this to the sh!te ones they use in North America (and elsewhere) that hang out of the socket half the bloody time. That's really poor design. Their whole system is even worse than ours...120VAC 3-wire single phase. Messy setup.

I have to say, I do find the system here in Germany pretty good. I used to think the safety shutter on UK type sockets was an advantage but you can now get sockets here with a similar shutter design, negating that single advantage.

I agree North American plugs are rubbish too. I don't know why they don't standardise on the European plug over there. You don't need a shutter in a socket where the hole is relatively small, and you have an RCD device at the other end to turn the power off in the event of a leak to ground in a few milliseconds.

Impetus

Sam Russell wrote: »

@Impetus

You might find this a starting point.

http://www.etci.ie/docs/certguide112009.pdf

Standards are not just for you, but those that follow you. You could wire according to French or some other standards, but electricians coming to repair, extend, or service the installation at a later date may be put in danger if they do not recognise or understand the installation. It may be possible to use a version of the Irish code that matches the French system. For example use only spurs, not ring-mains, with a single circuit-breaker per plug. There could be requirements that cannot be matched.

However, you are now required to use certified electricians, as you are required to use certified gas installers for gas.

In my view that is just bad bureaucracy. Corrupt. See you in court time, and see if you can defend your crappy standards?

Albania, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Chile, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Iran, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, and Uruguay can't be all wrong.

Or perhaps they are all out of step except for my Seány? (and Nigel!)

Impetus

If nothing else Ireland's 3 pin sockets are a restraint of trade - forcing appliance makers to create a separate product for the British Isles lot. It increases cost, reduces choice and makes one less mobile - without the crutch of an adapter or two.

Sam Russell

I am not defending the UK plug system. Nor am I involved in the electrical supply nor am I an electrician.

However, standards exist for a reason other than burocracy. Most of the countries you list plus most of the others in the world drive on the right hand side of the road. I suggest that you do not do so here just because you think that they cannot all be wrong!

Plug design was partly restrictions on trade and partly because they were develped independantly of each other. The same happened with the developement of chocolate, and each country makes a different version of chocolate. The exact way a chocolate bar was produced from cocoa was a secret closely guarded and each manufacturer had to work it out for themselves. Unfortunately for us, the Belgians and the Swiss produced a better product than we have ended up with.

The American's choice of 60Hz give them more efficient transformers and motors. Their choice of 110V was unfortunate if you want to boil water in a kettle. By the way Europeans do not tend to use electric kettles, but then they do not drink tea.

The Europeans consider the fused plug as dangerous (and I agree with them). The UK consider the absence of a fuse in the plug as dangerous.

You cannot win.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

The UK consider the absence of a fuse in the plug as dangerous.

Pointless perhaps but not dangerous if the building wiring is of a modern standard.

To be honest a fused plug is a hangover from when there was probably only one socket in the room and a trailing cable to the appliance or extension lead with half a dozen adaptors with a load of kit hanging off of it (more common than you think back in the 1960s).



That cable would often be squashed under furniture or trodden on as well, the risk of a short circuit were real.
The fuse was really needed to prevent the cable from burning out before the main fuse went after it shorted out.

Carawaystick

Impetus wrote: »

,Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Estonia, Germany, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Moldova, Russia, Serbia, Slovenia, Ukraine,

None of these countries existed when I was growing up in the 80s, so they're hardly a sign that our system is wrong.
Even in France there are 2 types of plug, close fitting earthed ones and loose 2 pin ones.
Also in France, many old homes are wired with circuit breakers, not rcbo,

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Pointless perhaps but not dangerous if the building wiring is of a modern standard.

To be honest a fused plug is a hangover from when there was probably only one socket in the room and a trailing cable to the appliance or extension lead with half a dozen adaptors with a load of kit hanging off of it (more common than you think back in the 1960s).



That cable would often be squashed under furniture or trodden on as well, the risk of a short circuit were real.
The fuse was really needed to prevent the cable from burning out before the main fuse went after it shorted out.

The reason for the fuse in the plug is nothing to do with the scene shown above.

The fused plug arises because of the 'inovation'of the ring main. It was designed that a 32 amp feed would loop araound a part of a premises, say a floor, where all sockets would be fed fron the loop which would return to the main fuse. Thus any plug would draw current from both directions of the loop. Instead of having one 15A fuse per feed, a 32 A fuse fed the ring main and each outlet carried the appropriate fuse for the appliance - 13A, 10A, 5A, 3A. The old system required each plug to be fed by a single line and fused with a 15A or 5A fuse. The plugs were different for each type. (The 5A is still used for switched light circuits).

It all sounded fine, but the use of circuit-breakers allowed the old system to be improved but the fused plug could not fit a CB. Fuses by their nature heat up as they approach the design limit (because that is how they work). 13A is enough to cause a fire in a faulty plug. The intoduction of Earth Leakage and the like improved safety, but the fuse remains. Fuses are there to protect the wiring and prevent electrical fires.

The fuse could be incorporated in the device, but overloading is still a problem.

L1011

Impetus wrote: »

If nothing else Ireland's 3 pin sockets are a restraint of trade - forcing appliance makers to create a separate product for the British Isles lot. It increases cost, reduces choice and makes one less mobile - without the crutch of an adapter or two.

You are aware surely that the vast majority of appliances have had separate leads for decades at this stage? Meaning zero change in the appliance, only one cheap lead.

Its fairly standard for the same SKU of a computing product to come with three or more power cables (BS, Schuko and US) and maybe a sack of phone leads if it has any telephony functions.

As it stands the need for different keyboards for every country in Europe more or less is a far bigger issue for computer vendors than plugs ever could be.

murphaph

Impetus wrote: »

I agree North American plugs are rubbish too. I don't know why they don't standardise on the European plug over there.

$$$. Same reason everywhere. Switching such legacy systems over involve hassle and expense, so these systems remain.

Impetus wrote: »

You don't need a shutter in a socket where the hole is relatively small

Lol, tell that to my inquisitive son who likes poking things into other things. In our flat (in Berlin, rewired about 20 years ago) the sockets don't appear to be on the RCD, just on MCBs. How do I know? I managed to conduct across my fingers when I "found" an old socket that had no cover (some idiot wallpapered over it). Nothing tripped. If my son stuck something metallic into the old sockets (no shutter) it could kill him. That was a design advantage of the 3 pin socket, but as I say, new sockets here can be found with the shutter, though they aren't mandatory (probably because RCDs are now).

I agree with your broad point that the ring mains and its fused plug is a poorer system over star designs with lightweight plugs/cords and suitable MCBs on each spur...you can probably wire your place in a star configuration but you will not be able to put Schuko sockets in it and to be honest I think you'd be mad to. Every single device you buy in Ireland will need to have its plug changed and visitors to your house won't be able to use anything they've brought with them without an adapter...it's just weird.

Sam Russell

murphaph wrote: »

I agree with your broad point that the ring mains and its fused plug is a poorer system over star designs with lightweight plugs/cords and suitable MCBs on each spur...you can probably wire your place in a star configuration but you will not be able to put Schuko sockets in it and to be honest I think you'd be mad to. Every single device you buy in Ireland will need to have its plug changed and visitors to your house won't be able to use anything they've brought with them without an adapter...it's just weird.

Each system was designed to overcome different problems and should be used in total.

In my Kitchen, I have a worksurface that has 3 double sockets and one single socket on the floor, all of which is served within a single ring-main fused (CB) to 32 amp. On that circuit is a kettle (13A), a toaster (5A), a coffee m/c (5A) and occasional use of a few other appliances, with the floor socket feeding a fridge/freezer (3A). If all are on load together, that makes 26A. If a hair dryer (10A) was also on, the consumption could be 36A. Now the ring main design allows diversity - that is it allows an assumption of occasional use to allow the overall load to be exceeded. In the spur design, this is not allowed. Because each socket in the UK can draw 13A, it is upto the plug to limit the draw to 5A, 10A or 13A. It would make sense if the plugs were shaped or coloured to display the internal fuse value, and perhaps made so a different fuse could not be used.

Once you go with a system, yoy need to use all of it.

The French system relies on ''double insulation''' which means that there are two systems of insulation on the neutral and live, minimising the danger of shock, obviating the need for an earth connection.

The German system plugs and fuses were used in Ireland up to the 60s as we used the whole German system from the founding of the ESB.

Impetus

murphaph wrote: »

$$$. Same reason everywhere. Switching such legacy systems over involve hassle and expense, so these systems remain.

You don't have to get everybody to re-wire their house overnight. New houses and commercial buildings could be fitted with Schuko sockets, and have them gradually introduced as premises are re-wired.

Sweden moved from driving on the left to driving on the right hand side in the 1960s. They started off with very low speed limits in the first week or so while people got used to it, and succeeded in the change-over without any problems.

murphaph wrote: »

Lol, tell that to my inquisitive son who likes poking things into other things. In our flat (in Berlin, rewired about 20 years ago) the sockets don't appear to be on the RCD, just on MCBs. How do I know? I managed to conduct across my fingers when I "found" an old socket that had no cover (some idiot wallpapered over it). Nothing tripped. If my son stuck something metallic into the old sockets (no shutter) it could kill him. That was a design advantage of the 3 pin socket, but as I say, new sockets here can be found with the shutter, though they aren't mandatory (probably because RCDs are now).

Older British plugs didn't have insulation on the backs of the pins, and people suffered electrocution as a result of part of their hand touching a pin while it was being inserted in the socket. You can't do that with the continental system because the socket entry is not flush - you plug into the socket.

BT invented its own incompatible (non RJ11) phone socket, which had a big hole for little fingers to get electrocuted if an incoming call arrived at the time causing the ringing current to be sent down the line.

murphaph

French sockets provide an earth. They don't rely solely on double insulation. The french earth is a prong in the socket. The German earth is built into the top and bottom of the socket. An earthed german plug can't be inserted into a French socket. That's one of the reasons the Europlug was invented for non earthed devices.

Impetus

murphaph wrote: »

French sockets provide an earth. They don't rely solely on double insulation. The french earth is a prong in the socket. The German earth is built into the top and bottom of the socket. An earthed german plug can't be inserted into a French socket. That's one of the reasons the Europlug was invented for non earthed devices.

My French plugs have both a hole for the earth prong in the French socket and side earth contacts to earth the appliances in German sockets. Universal. I have German purchased appliances too and they have an earth connector for the French earth prong.

MBSnr

Impetus wrote: »

We are big into anti-British rant claims in this territory. I did say in the other thread that I was trying to think of an area where the British excel. It came to me the other day - "appearances". Royal family pageantry and similar. They do it like no other country.

The only problem is that these appearances can be used to pull the wool over peoples' eyes.
Just because one can put on a world class display involving some royals accompanied with their army trooping down some boulevard does not mean that you are a good engineer. Unfortunately in Britain most intelligent engineers are working in financial jobs in London - instead of less lucrative jobs like electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. GB has paid a big price as a result, and Ireland is paying the price whenever it copies second rate solutions devised by second class minds who have been programmed to do everything possible to be different (which often means anti-European) for the sake of it.
.
.

So you have anti-British rant predisposition and then find an area they excel in, which you then ironically turn it back into just another of your anti-British posts... Good work.

So most UK intelligent engineers work in financial jobs in London? Is that a published fact then? The UK leads the way in many high tech engineering fields including Formula 1.

Fancy having a go at the French (for once )? They have ordered these trains that are too wide for the stations and the cost is reported to be €50m to fix... Or perhaps all their intelligent engineers work in the London financial sector as well?

Sam Russell

Maybe we should have a go at the lamp design. ES (Edisson Screw) or baynet? Not to mention GU10, G9, etc.

Oh dear, when God designed standards, he designed plenty of them.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Maybe we should have a go at the lamp design. ES (Edisson Screw) or baynet? Not to mention GU10, G9, etc.

Oh dear, when God designed standards, he designed plenty of them.

What, to bring forward the day of reckoning you mean.

SpaceTime

Ireland used Schuko (German style earthed plugs) at one stage along side the older round-pin UK ones.

The bigger issue for us at the moment is that if we changed to continental plugs, because most distributors see us as an adjunct to the UK market, we would end up with appliances with plugs that don't fit our sockets.

Note how many telephones, modems etc come with BT plugs even though the Irish RJ11 plug is the most common and standardised connector in the world. The distributors just don't give a damn and see us as Western Manachester or something.

The modern continental plug system is called CEE 7.
It's used everywhere except Italy, Switzerland and Denmark and is now used right across the former USSR and in many other countries including South Korea. It's probably the most commonly used system in the world.

Basically you've three plugs :

CEE 7/7 - 16 amp earthed.
CEE 7/17 - 16 amp unearthed (for stuff like vacuum cleaners, hairdryers etc)
CEE 7/16 - 2.5amp unearned flat plug (small appliances only)

All of these plugs are designed to fit two types of sockets : CEE 7/4 (German style with grounding clips) and CEE 7/5 (French style with grounding pin).

Both sockets are recessed so you cannot touch the pins of the plugs when you're inserting/removing them and many countries (particularly France) also have shuttered sockets as mandatory.

The sockets are usually on 16amp radial circuits (although sometimes 20amp too).

All in all, it's a very safe system - the only issues you'll find is where older non-earthed sockets are still in use.

You've a few odd-ball systems then too which use the same 2 round pin system, but have their own way of earthing things.
Italy, Switzerland and Denmark.

UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta all use the same system which is deliberately designed to be incompatible due to ring circuits needing fused plugs.

SpaceTime

Sam Russell wrote: »

@Impetus

You might find this a starting point.

http://www.etci.ie/docs/certguide112009.pdf

Standards are not just for you, but those that follow you. You could wire according to French or some other standards, but electricians coming to repair, extend, or service the installation at a later date may be put in danger if they do not recognise or understand the installation. It may be possible to use a version of the Irish code that matches the French system. For example use only spurs, not ring-mains, with a single circuit-breaker per plug. There could be requirements that cannot be matched.

However, you are now required to use certified electricians, as you are required to use certified gas installers for gas.

It doesn't mean a single circuit breaker per plug either. Ireland normally uses radial circuits too (very commonly). You can have quite a few sockets per circuit.


That's your typical modern French setup : http://leniddecastors.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Tableau-electrique.jpg

Split panel with multiple RCDs and they'll allow up to 8 sockets per radial.

Incidentally, the European Commission and CENELEC worked on a proposed 16amp, recessed, very neat plug (largely based on the Swiss system but with higher load and safer). However, the UK vetoed its use and it was abandoned.

It's now IEC 60906-1 and is used by Brazil and also being adopted by South Africa.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60906-1

Would have been a far neater job than any existing European system.

The CEE 7 system was considered too well established and a de facto pan-EU standard anyway so, that was also another big deciding factor. Changing it would be extremely expensive as there are hundreds of million sod appliances and sockets.

The primary concern seems to be to ensure that people are using MODERN versions of CEE 7, not old pre WWII unearthed sockets.

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

Maybe we should have a go at the lamp design. ES (Edisson Screw) or baynet? Not to mention GU10, G9, etc.

Oh dear, when God designed standards, he designed plenty of them.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

Exactly.

The differing opinions with plugs boils down to:

UK: We need a fuse in the plug to protect the wires.
EU: Fuses are a fire hazard in the plug.

UK: We need square pins for better contact and cheaper production cost.
Eu: We need round pins for better contact and higher quality production.

UK: We need a socket with a low profile.
EU: We need a socket that protects the live from fingers.

UK: We need a side entry cord so it cannot be pulled out of the socket.
EU: We need an end entry cord so it pulls out of the socket.

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I like the Swiss system, and therefore I like the proposed design, IEC 60906-1, which appears to be well thought out.

To use the continental design, the CB at the fuse box just needs to be downgraded to 16A from 32A and high demand items like electric heaters and the like be retired. This would work for most installations. Obviously plugs and sockets would need to be changed.

SpaceTime

Sam Russell wrote: »

To use the continental design, the CB at the fuse box just needs to be downgraded to 16A from 32A and high demand items like electric heaters and the like be retired. This would work for most installations. Obviously plugs and sockets would need to be changed.

Most Irish installations actually use 16A and 20A radials anyway. I've never encountered rings in any property I've lived in here (although they are used).
So, a very large % of Irish homes basically use continental style wiring with British style sockets anyway.

Have a look at your own fusebox sometime. You'll be unlikely to find many 32Amp circuits other than the cooker or shower circuits and probably have a large number of 20A or 16A circuits instead.

There would be no reason to retire heaters either. Continental outlets can safely deliver over 3600W where as our fused plugs can only carry 2990W safely.

The usual setup in continental Europe is a 20A circuit serving 8 sockets and it seems to work 100% fine. Cords don't burst into flames!

The way the European sockets are recessed to prevent your fingers touching the pins makes more sense than the way the UK ones do it. British plugs originally had no sleeves on the pins. So, to minimise the risk of touching the pin, the plug only makes contact at the very tip of the pin when it's almost fully inserted. This means that the plug doesn't really have that much surface area in contact with the socket. The result of that is that if the plug is overloaded or if the springs are a little loose on the socket, the pins get very hot. The continental ones don't have sleeved pins on 16A plugs as the design doesn't need them to protect your fingers and the socket makes contact with much more of the pin.

You also have a risk of the fuse not being quite in position in the plug. The holders are often pretty flimsy arrangements. If the fuse is loose and the plug is carrying its maximum load (e.g. a heater) there's a serious risk it will run very hot.

The Swiss system is OK, to a point. The old sockets weren't recessed and were pretty dangerous as it was almost difficult to avoid touching the pins! The new ones are very safe though.
Also, it was 10 amps instead of 16amps, which is a bit silly as it limits your appliances to very low wattages.

The UK 13amp system is also way out of line with the continental 16amp approach. So, you end up with special versions of appliances for UK/IRL e.g. tumble dryers, microwaves etc that have to be limited to about 2880W
Sometimes, they just use the lowest common denominator and limit the entire European production to 2880W to suit the UK so they don't have to make a 2nd version.

In a lot of cases these days it's done with software, so a UK version of a dryer for example will just never switch on the full load of heaters. Where as if it's programmed for EU mode it will.

...

That being said, both the UK and continental systems are reasonably safe when used correctly and when you're talking about modern installations.

...

If you were going to change to the IEC pan-European standard smaller, neater plug. You'd end up with 30+ years of adaptors! People aren't going to just replace their sockets until they have to rewire their house / redecorate and then how would they use their old appliances? You'd have a mess of adaptors for years like the way we used have in the 60s!