What do you think of the justice system?

Hotale.com

This could be really unpopular but...


I really don't see why people are obsessed with giving people longer sentences for everything, in my opinion prisoners should be assessed on their likelihood to reoffend as opposed to trying to give them a "punishment" which might end up teaching them nothing at great expense. I understand for the most heinous of crimes that a 15 year imprisonment should be the minimum, but for something where the likelihood of reoffending is close to nil (an accidental manslaughter for example, where the person had no previous criminal record) I see no point in locking people up, therapy or such would be a better option imo.

Please don't hurt me.

Lucifer MorningStar

The justice system in this country is a bloody joke, it needs to be drastically reformed.

ScumLord

The whole criminal justice system is a corrupt, self service leach on society. Solicitors stand up in court and pretend to do battle on your behalf then disappear into the back room with your opposition to arrange a deal between themselves. That back room annoys me, seeing solicitors, barristers and judges go in there colluding with one another. They then come out, pluck a figure out of thin air for your bill and threaten you with a bigger number if you dare question their advice.

All they are at this stage is a protection racket, they want to stick their oar into every facet of peoples lives and take a cut of whatever money they can get their hands on. I find the whole system utterly corrupting and it should be knocked down and rebuilt from scratch. That's what I think of our so called justice system. *wipes froth from mouth*

A man punched my missus in the face one night when I wasn't out, one of her friends seen this happen and then proceeded to get the better of this asshole and now her friend is gettin prosecuted under section 2 while the other guy is gettin away Scott free for the assault he committed against my girlfriend....I believe it's complete joke.

Turtyturd

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

The justice system in this country is a bloody joke, it needs to be drastically reformed.

I work in the Justice system and agree with this. But it is not a simple fix, social attitudes need to be changed which could take generations. Using the OP's example, how do you explain to the family of a manslaughter victim looking for Justice that the offender will not receive any punishment because he is unlikely to reoffend?

However I would start with the unpaid fines offences...8000 plus commitals last year for fines is a joke.

Hotale.com

Turtyturd wrote: »

Using the OP's example, how do you explain to the family of a manslaughter victim looking for Justice that the offender will not receive any punishment because he is unlikely to reoffend?

The likelihood is that he's already suffering himself, or that is the kind of situation I'm referring to. I'm also thinking about it from a completely non-emotive (is that the term?) point of view, basically I'm saying that the punishment really would only be serving the purpose of giving the families a sense of closure - which I do think they deserve - but not really having any other effect.

I also extremely dislike the attitude in court of the lawyers being forced to defend the indefensible, the aim should be to find out who committed whatever crime and punish them accordingly, as opposed to trying to get the defendant sentenced even if he/she appears to have done nothing wrong.

Vandango

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

The justice system in this country is a bloody joke, it needs to be drastically reformed.

And we both have a better chance of winning the Euro Millions before that happens.

bigroad

The usuall excuse is that their is no room in our prisons.Well why dont they build a super prison where the prisoners work .This would in turn pay for the prison and the running of the prison.

Nemeses

The question is: How does one reform a complete yet fair justice system?

Where do you start? The laws of the state?

Do you have the right to tell someone their punishment? Can you play God?

Quite complex.. but I agree. Certainly needs to be reformed.

Hotale.com

bigroad wrote: »

The usuall excuse is that their is no room in our prisons.Well why dont they build a super prison where the prisoners work .This would in turn pay for the prison and the running of the prison.

Because then we're throwing people in prison to increase productivity instead of to prevent people being a danger to society?

I don't understand why prison seems to be seen as the only solution to every crime.

DrumSteve

Thread needs complimentary pitchforks.

knird evol

The advantage of prison is not that it punishes but that it decirculates career criminals. Takes them out of play.
We have less than 4000 prison spaces and we need over 10000.
They say 'but oh it costs ___ euro per space per year'
It costs far more in homes broken into, cars, insurance industry/premiums, free legal aid, judges, guards, social cost.

The guy that broke into your house last night should have been in jail. Not in an ideal sort of way but quite literally. He will have been convicted in a court room some time in the previous two or three years and firstly the judge gave him to light a sentence. Secondly the prison governor let him out. Bizarely the governor/prison service can just let prisoners out whenever they want. They put fancy names on it like 'early release' and 'temporary release' but they're basically opening the door and out. There isn't the room to hold them.

In this country all the criminals are walking around. Who should be in a cell. Forget punishment and reform. Focus on Decirculation. When they're in cells they won't be in your house.

nibtrix

knird evol wrote: »

The guy that broke into your house last night....

I knew I heard a noise!!!

Luckily all my stuff is too crap to rob. :-(

Little CuChulainn

It's broken. Whether you look at legislation, enforcement, representation, prosecution, the judiciary, the probation service or the penal system, none of it works.

Santa Cruz

Sirsok wrote: »

A man punched my missus in the face one night when I wasn't out, one of her friends seen this happen and then proceeded to get the better of this asshole and now her friend is gettin prosecuted under section 2 while the other guy is gettin away Scott free for the assault he committed against my girlfriend....I believe it's complete joke.

Proper order. Your pal decides to take the law in to his own hands.

Hotale.com

Sirsok wrote: »

A man punched my missus in the face one night when I wasn't out, one of her friends seen this happen and then proceeded to get the better of this asshole and now her friend is gettin prosecuted under section 2 while the other guy is gettin away Scott free for the assault he committed against my girlfriend....I believe it's complete joke.

Should both be in trouble really, your friend probably took it too far.

Riva10

bigroad wrote: »

The usuall excuse is that their is no room in our prisons.Well why dont they build a super prison where the prisoners work .This would in turn pay for the prison and the running of the prison.

If there is no room in the prisons for the real criminals why are people put in prison for not having a TV license?

Riamfada

The courts system impose the law of the state. Law and justice are two very different things.

Ormus

A fair justice system is impossible, because one man's fair is another man's unfair.

The best a justice system can ever hope to be is as fair as possible to as many people as possible.

Even then, extreme injustices will happen, nothing is more certain.

Turtyturd

Riva10 wrote: »

If there is no room in the prisons for the real criminals why are people put in prison for not having a TV license?

Was only discussing this with someone earlier. People who haven't paid their TV licence are 'in prison' not actually in prison. Today there were 14 (I think) people in prison for not paying fines. I doubt any are for TV licences, but the fact that those convicted have to go to the prison on to be given TR is ridiculous.

Hotale.com

Turtyturd wrote: »

Was only discussing this with someone earlier. People who haven't paid their TV licence are 'in prison' not actually in prison. Today there were 14 (I think) people in prison for not paying fines. I doubt any are for TV licences, but the fact that those convicted have to go to the prison on to be given TR is ridiculous.

Apparently if you don't pay your tv licence you're brought to the nearest prison, sign a few pieces of paper and then they pay for your taxi home again. The "imprisonment" is in lieu of payment.

Turtyturd

Hotale.com wrote: »

Apparently if you don't pay your tv licence you're brought to the nearest prison, sign a few pieces of paper and then they pay for your taxi home again. The "imprisonment" is in lieu of payment.

Pretty much, the 'Fines Act' should see them dealt with through Probation/Community Service.

Hotale.com

Turtyturd wrote: »

Pretty much, the 'Fines Act' should see them dealt with through Probation/Community Service.

The "common sense act" should see RTÉ stop playing adverts and cutting exorbitant wages if the TV license was to make any sense but that's for another time...

caustic 1

I can't understand how repeat offenders keep getting off and not locked up. That to me is the joke. Surely there are rare cases where someone lashes out and hits another person resulting in their death, people who have never stepped out of line before. But because of their actions rightly or wrongly someone died and I know if it were my child I would want justice, and if it were them who committed the crime they would have to accept their punishment even though it would break my heart. But every week I hear cases of yobs who have a steady stream of convictions and get off every single time. That is the joke.

Bogan

There is no justice in the justice system. It's just a theatre for the legal profession to perform their theatrics. It boils down to the experience of the people representing you and how much they charge. The sentences are far too lenient as it is.

I think prisoners should get training and learn useful skills when inside. Those who don't need or want to learn new skills should pay for their keep by doing real jobs inside the jail. Those who don't want to do either should get no allowance whatsoever.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

Justice is lost. Justice is raped. Justice is gone.

DildoFaggins

Hotale.com wrote: »

Should both be in trouble really, your friend probably took it too far.

Poor fella he only hit the hit mans missus he didn't deserve it:pac::pac:

gugleguy

caustic 1 wrote: »

I can't understand how repeat offenders keep getting off and not locked up....

COST. Prison officer wages. Cell space ..limited commodity.
Prisoners get injured or even killed by other prisoners. Prisoners have rights too and are regarded as 'customers' in the prison system. So prisoners families may have to be compensated when they have been attacked in unprovoked fashion anther or not they are violent by nature in their own right.

pO1Neil

Ormus wrote: »

A fair justice system is impossible, because one man's fair is another man's unfair.

The best a justice system can ever hope to be is as fair as possible to as many people as possible.

Even then, extreme injustices will happen, nothing is more certain.

So basically a more fair justice system?




With all the injustices going on in this country it's a wonder we haven't risen up & over throwing the state yet.

ScumLord

pO1Neil wrote: »

With all the injustices going on in this country it's a wonder we haven't risen up & over throwing the state yet.

Because the problems we have now are first world problems, over all it's not that bad when compared to a country with a failed government and people rioting on the streets.

No sane person is willing to risk what we have for pandemonium. Things would have to get a hell of a lot worse before the Irish will stir.

pO1Neil

ScumLord wrote: »

Because the problems we have now are first world problems, over all it's not that bad when compared to a country with a failed government and people rioting on the streets.

No sane person is willing to risk what we have for pandemonium. Things would have to get a hell of a lot worse before the Irish will stir.

So what I am suppose to do with all these little red flags I bought?

Lapin

Hotale.com wrote: »

This could be really unpopular but...


I really don't see why people are obsessed with giving people longer sentences for everything, in my opinion prisoners should be assessed on their likelihood to reoffend as opposed to trying to give them a "punishment" which might end up teaching them nothing at great expense. I understand for the most heinous of crimes that a 15 year imprisonment should be the minimum, but for something where the likelihood of reoffending is close to nil (an accidental manslaughter for example, where the person had no previous criminal record) I see no point in locking people up, therapy or such would be a better option imo.

Please don't hurt me.

How would therapy help in the case of accidental manslaughter ?

hfallada

Our justice system is not the issue. Our education system is the issue. Most criminals in Ireland never even finished primary school. They have pretty much a zero chance of getting a 9-5 job, when they leave prison due to no education. Meaning they get involved in crime again and its a constant circle. Even with long sentences criminals, end up committing crimes again. The circle of crime isnt broken.

The irish times interviewed families of crimes. There were plenty of serious criminals with brothers and sisters, who were doctors, solicitors and teachers. Nearly of believed the failure of the education system was to blame for their siblings criminal background. Our prison population is the highest ever. But our crime levels are still rising. What does that tell you? Putting someone away for a few years doesnt solve the issue

2Mad2BeMad

The Justice system in Ireland is brilliant!!!!!.......If your a criminal

dublinman1990

The Justice system is a danger to our society, there is no question about it.

I believe the lack of real punishment from the courts and in legislation from our national parliament is the key in providing that danger.

It should be reformed to a great deal to give us at least some hope. And nothing should change that.

ScumLord

pO1Neil wrote: »

So what I am suppose to do with all these little red flags I bought?

Get some blue and white paint and head down to your local anti abortion rally.

hfallada wrote: »

Our justice system is not the issue. Our education system is the issue. Most criminals in Ireland never even finished primary school. They have pretty much a zero chance of getting a 9-5 job, when they leave prison due to no education.

It's not as simple as that, there are plenty of smart, well educated, children of rich parents that end up dealing drugs and ranking pretty highly up. The grunts that deal on the street are only dealing to get their fix, it doesn't mean there aren't smart people behind the scenes. It's not stupid to get into drug dealing, it's easy money while it lasts and the punishments aren't all that great of a deterrent, especially for well to do families that can get off with a slap on the wrist.

ryan101

Hotale.com wrote: »

This could be really unpopular but...


I really don't see why people are obsessed with giving people longer sentences for everything, in my opinion prisoners should be assessed on their likelihood to reoffend as opposed to trying to give them a "punishment" which might end up teaching them nothing at great expense. I understand for the most heinous of crimes that a 15 year imprisonment should be the minimum, but for something where the likelihood of reoffending is close to nil (an accidental manslaughter for example, where the person had no previous criminal record) I see no point in locking people up, therapy or such would be a better option imo.

Please don't hurt me.

There is no deterrent not to hurt you or a family member.
Will you be advocating short / no sentences for those who will be at some stage in your life, committing a serious crimes against you or your family ?

At present there is no real deterrent to committing crime any more. I know people in our area with 100 plus convictions and a few months prison time, they consider it a health farm / holiday.

Kimbot

Should be like america, 3 strikes and your out.

caustic 1

caustic 1 wrote: »

I can't understand how repeat offenders keep getting off and not locked up. That to me is the joke. Surely there are rare cases where someone lashes out and hits another person resulting in their death, people who have never stepped out of line before. But because of their actions rightly or wrongly someone died and I know if it were my child I would want justice, and if it were them who committed the crime they would have to accept their punishment even though it would break my heart. But every week I hear cases of yobs who have a steady stream of convictions and get off every single time. That is the joke.

Where I live a man tied plastic bottles to his "friend" but him on a pallet and set it on fire, this resulted in the man having to get his leg amputated... Ultimately the victims life spiralled out of control with alcohol and drugs and he passed away. The man who carried out the assault spent 3 years in prison, after he left prison he went drinkin one day and stabbed a young man to death ...

if he hadn't been given such a lenient sentence the first time the young man who was stabbed would still be alive

Adamantium

I don't think much of it at the moment, but I can't wait until the landmark case of Batman Vs Superman in 2016.

I hope that Bruce Wayne outs that cuntin journalist Clark Kent, for who he really is.

Holsten

jonny24ie wrote: »

Should be like america, 3 strikes and your out.

Is this just actual opinion or just some flippant comment? I can never really tell.

If you've done any bit of reading at all you'd be aware of just how messed up the American justice system is. They have the highest rate of incarceration in the world along with some of the highest rates of recidivism. A complete and utter failure.

The primary focus of any justice system should be to reduce crime. Building more prisons to house more people for longer periods will not reduce crime. Harsher sentencing does not reduce crime. Corporal/capital punishments do not reduce crime.

The irish justice system is a mess but could be much worse.

suicide_circus

knird evol wrote: »

The advantage of prison is not that it punishes but that it decirculates career criminals. Takes them out of play.
We have less than 4000 prison spaces and we need over 10000.
They say 'but oh it costs ___ euro per space per year'
It costs far more in homes broken into, cars, insurance industry/premiums, free legal aid, judges, guards, social cost.

The guy that broke into your house last night should have been in jail. Not in an ideal sort of way but quite literally. He will have been convicted in a court room some time in the previous two or three years and firstly the judge gave him to light a sentence. Secondly the prison governor let him out. Bizarely the governor/prison service can just let prisoners out whenever they want. They put fancy names on it like 'early release' and 'temporary release' but they're basically opening the door and out. There isn't the room to hold them.

In this country all the criminals are walking around. Who should be in a cell. Forget punishment and reform. Focus on Decirculation. When they're in cells they won't be in your house.

Have to agree with this.

Prison should seek to reform but also to improve public safety by simply removing those likely to reoffend from normal society. You have proven yourself unable to behave in a reasonable manner? Off to prison with you for a few years and let others continue their peaceful existence without the threat of YOUR shenanigans.

dxhound2005

hfallada wrote: »

Our justice system is not the issue. Our education system is the issue. Most criminals in Ireland never even finished primary school. They have pretty much a zero chance of getting a 9-5 job, when they leave prison due to no education. Meaning they get involved in crime again and its a constant circle. Even with long sentences criminals, end up committing crimes again. The circle of crime isnt broken.

The irish times interviewed families of crimes. There were plenty of serious criminals with brothers and sisters, who were doctors, solicitors and teachers. Nearly of believed the failure of the education system was to blame for their siblings criminal background. Our prison population is the highest ever. But our crime levels are still rising. What does that tell you? Putting someone away for a few years doesnt solve the issue

What is it supposed to tell me? The prison population is hardly going to be lower when the general population of the country is increasing all the time. Over one million extra people in the country now compared to twenty years ago.

Our crime levels are still rising?? Where did you get that information?

Pedro K

Said it before, I'll say it again. Concurrent sentencing is a virus. It incentivises crime. You may as well commit as many as you can before you get put away, considering all your sentences will run side by side.