Galway to Moycullen Cycle Greenway?

Private Joker

Without funding it won't get built anyway

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

Without funding it won't get built anyway

Perhaps, but it would be a profound mistake to put it out there that all is needed is for someone to come up with funding and the thing will happen.

If somebody in a "position of influence" were to suddenly announce "funding" the likely effect would be to harden opposition among landowners who have already been extremely poorly treated and have no sense of humour left regarding these things.

Trying to use "planning" as a "chancers charter" when you need community buy-in would probably kill the project.

Private Joker

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Perhaps, but it would be a profound mistake to put it out there that all is needed is for someone to come up with funding and the thing will happen.

If somebody in a "position of influence" were to suddenly announce "funding" the likely effect would be to harden opposition among landowners who have already been extremely poorly treated and have no sense of humour left regarding these things.

Trying to use "planning" as a "chancers charter" when you need community buy-in would probably kill the project.

How do you deal with landowners who don't want it in any shape or form through their lands ? Don't get me wrong I have sympathy for those directly affected who are not being offered any form of compensation .
The vast majority of the community want this greenway and it seems the only objections are from the landowners directly affected . CPO is the only way to proceed imo , if your spending millions on infrastructure it should be in public ownership , this needs to be a ministerial decision and I don't see an interim minister making that decision .

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

How do you deal with landowners who don't want it in any shape or form through their lands ? Don't get me wrong I have sympathy for those directly affected who are not being offered any form of compensation .
The vast majority of the community want this greenway and it seems the only objections are from the landowners directly affected . CPO is the only way to proceed imo , if your spending millions on infrastructure it should be in public ownership , this needs to be a ministerial decision and I don't see an interim minister making that decision .

On what basis are you claiming that landowners don't want it through their land in any form? It was the council roads department who insisted on following the old railway regardless of the current suitability. The fact remains that the manner in which the council roads department conducted this project, and other similar projects, has mobilised powerful interests such as the IFA against greenways.

People had been working on this for years, decades, and there were the bones of a consensus route in place. Then the council roads department came in and destroyed it.

Private Joker

galwaycyclist wrote: »

On what basis are you claiming that landowners don't want it through their land in any form? It was the council roads department who insisted on following the old railway regardless of the current suitability. The fact remains that the manner in which the council roads department conducted this project, and other similar projects, has mobilised powerful interests such as the IFA against greenways.

People had been working on this for years, decades, and there were the bones of a consensus route in place. Then the council roads department came in and destroyed it.

It was the national cycle network strategy plan to use toepaths and disused railway lines . The route is mostly in place from Dublin to athlone along canal toepaths and the old mullingar athlone railway line, it's where it deviated off those routes onto farm land that opposition was encountered and rightly so.

Connemara is a patchwork of sac nha and spa , if you read the eis from the clifden to oughterard scheme you will see that the disused railway line is classified as disturbed habitat , making it the only viable route other than following the existing road network .

When you see signs like" greenway, no way " going up along the proposed route it shows that landowners might not be for it . Just an opinion .

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

It was the national cycle network strategy plan to use toepaths and disused railway lines . The route is mostly in place from Dublin to athlone along canal toepaths and the old mullingar athlone railway line, it's where it deviated off those routes onto farm land that opposition was encountered and rightly so.

Connemara is a patchwork of sac nha and spa , if you read the eis from the clifden to oughterard scheme you will see that the disused railway line is classified as disturbed habitat , making it the only viable route other than following the existing road network .

When you see signs like" greenway, no way " going up along the proposed route it shows that landowners might not be for it . Just an opinion .

Sure and that makes sense where they are in public ownership. But the national cycle network strategy was put together by the NRA - this leads to suspicion that it was drafted by roads engineers for roads engineers. The previous Failte Ireland cycling tourism strategy advocated using the network of minor roads and booreens we have around this country. The point being that there are alternative ways of creating viable attractive cycling routes. This is what happens elsewhere much of the Eurovelo network uses public roads that are still open to low levels of motor traffic.

There are other examples of disturbed ground in the SAC (special areas of conservation) that are not railway. There is an abandoned road east of Lough Uraid heading towards Maam Cross. So when the council say they can use the abandoned railway, but can't use abandoned roads, people start to smell a rat. Also not all of the ground in the SACs are protected habitat. It is not all bog. Some of it is wet heath that likely could bear a cycle path without impacting the protected part.

Private Joker

very true and its great to have an informed discussion on this issue . I'm not sure of the thinking around the route selection but i would assume it was to take the shortest route , if you follow the roads and boreens a 27km route could end up at 35km , which would push people out on to the N59, which for the most part is not suitable for cyclists .
While its true that a percentage of the eurovelo routes are along existing roads but those countries dont have the same level of ribbon developments and high levels of local traffic , to add to that sight lines would probably have to opened up on blind bends and roads would need to be widened which would have a greater effect on dwelling houses . all it would take is one road death and the popularity of it would plummet.
The whole community will benefit from this , i would say it will be a lot more popular than the westport greenway but only if its done properly . I cant see anybody choosing cycling on local roads in connemara, something which they can do now over the westport greenway.

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

very true and its great to have an informed discussion on this issue . I'm not sure of the thinking around the route selection but i would assume it was to take the shortest route , if you follow the roads and boreens a 27km route could end up at 35km , which would push people out on to the N59, which for the most part is not suitable for cyclists .
While its true that a percentage of the eurovelo routes are along existing roads but those countries dont have the same level of ribbon developments and high levels of local traffic , to add to that sight lines would probably have to opened up on blind bends and roads would need to be widened which would have a greater effect on dwelling houses . all it would take is one road death and the popularity of it would plummet.
The whole community will benefit from this , i would say it will be a lot more popular than the westport greenway but only if its done properly . I cant see anybody choosing cycling on local roads in connemara, something which they can do now over the westport greenway.

I think the informed view would be to keep it away from the N59 as much as possible. On this note, from memory, for the section after Oughterard, the original council plan was to incorporate the route into the N59 as a sidepath for a block of about 11km. This is one of the things that got changed at the Bord Pleanala hearing - but without the knowledge of the landowners.

One side effect of how the NRA and County Council Roads department have behaved is that they have now created an active lobby group who are going around arguing that these routes should be incorporated directly into the N59, old N6 etc.

This would be a disaster from a tourism product perspective.

It would be all over trip advisor the day it opened and would make Galway a laughing stock.

Do local boreens necessarily have to have high levels of traffic? Is the traffic local? I would say around Moycullen it isn't and that much of the traffic is people trying to rat-run around the village or rat-run past traffic jams on the N59. A few strategic road closures would fix that. Also the speed limit regime in this country of 80kmh on minor roads is bizarre. It would not happen in the Netherlands or Germany. Do the people in ribbon developments really want strangers in cars whizzing past their gates? Would the people in ribbon developments not also like to be able to walk or cycle or let their children walk or cycle?

nuac

Sorry to see little progress on this.

As I mentioned at post 10 at start of this thread I don't thing a contested CPO application would succeed for a Greenway. There are degrees of common good. The land owner could validly suggest other routes etc.

The permissive access method and community involvement are the way to go.

Has worked in Mayo for the Westport-Achill Greeway.

happyoutscan

Private Joker wrote: »

very true and its great to have an informed discussion on this issue . I'm not sure of the thinking around the route selection but i would assume it was to take the shortest route , if you follow the roads and boreens a 27km route could end up at 35km , which would push people out on to the N59, which for the most part is not suitable for cyclists .
While its true that a percentage of the eurovelo routes are along existing roads but those countries dont have the same level of ribbon developments and high levels of local traffic , to add to that sight lines would probably have to opened up on blind bends and roads would need to be widened which would have a greater effect on dwelling houses . all it would take is one road death and the popularity of it would plummet.
The whole community will benefit from this , i would say it will be a lot more popular than the westport greenway but only if its done properly . I cant see anybody choosing cycling on local roads in connemara, something which they can do now over the westport greenway.

Not a chance it will be more popular than the Achill-Westport greenway, not in a million years.

stampydmonkey

happyoutscan wrote: »

Not a chance it will be more popular than the Achill-Westport greenway, not in a million years.

Why not pray tell?

happyoutscan

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Why not pray tell?

The vast majority of users on the Westport-Achill stretch are novice cyclists, pensioners and families. The primary reason for the popularity is - not including the immense draw that Westport has - that there are no great distances between services that can cater to the above:

- Achill Sound to Mulranny is an easy 12km with a few eateries/ shops in both
- Mulranny to Newport is 18km with pit stops at Yvonne's Cottage and Nevin's for food and drinks. Both of these have paths direct from the Greenway to their front door. Newport also has eateries/shops as well.
- Newport to Westport is another 12km albeit not as flat or scenic as the initial 30km from Achill to Newport.

Now if you consider the amount of novice cycling families with young kids on bikes and moms/dads pulling trailers/tag-a-longs you need the short stretches between services. This has been shown over the last few years. Novice cyclists want easy cycling. A good example of this is the lack of popularity among families to cycle the 12km stretch between Newport-Westport due to the few hills that are on this stretch (and they are barely even hills!).

I think the Galway to Clifden line (if it hopefully gets the go ahead) will be popular from Galway-Moycullen-Oughterard because at least the distances between aren't too excessive:
- Galway to Moycullen 12km
- Moycullen to Oughterard 14km
I don't know if there are any pub grub/shops between these towns.

From Oughterard to Maam Cross you have 30km and then a further 34km onto Clifden. Inexperienced cyclists from pensioners to families haven't a notion of cycling these distances without any services in between. Sure you have Recess but is there anything even there, is the pub serving food? Add on mechanical failures, punctures and kids losing interest to the disinterest in this stretch as well. You also need to consider that if cycling from Galway outwards from Oughterard you are heading straight into the usual westerly winds. Suitable for experienced cyclists of course but not for families. As it is in Westport most cyclists try to start in Achill and finish in Westport taking advantage of the wind.

As for bike hire companies is it sustainable to operate along a 77km stretch of Greenway?

Baggy Trousers

I think a greenway from Oughterard to Galway would get a lot of use from commuters. There are a lot of people in west Galway working in UCG and the hospital and would welcome the chance of exercise in the morning/evening.

I did hear that landowners are blocking certain stretches again so it might be a very long wait.

stampydmonkey

happyoutscan

I don't know about bike hire. But I would imagine with the population, tourist, cycling base in Galway and the availability of coke bikes that it would be very very popular. I could see sections of it being a lot more popular than Westport.

As you are saying, the Galway to Moycullen/Oughterard route more so than further north but I would imagine/hope camping/break sites would pop up along the entire route as required.

As for the winds, its the same on the Westport greenway. Depends on which side you start.
Really do hope it gets the go ahead

happyoutscan

stampydmonkey wrote: »

happyoutscan

I don't know about bike hire. But I would imagine with the population, tourist, cycling base in Galway and the availability of coke bikes that it would be very very popular. I could see sections of it being a lot more popular than Westport.

As you are saying, the Galway to Moycullen/Oughterard route more so than further north but I would imagine/hope camping/break sites would pop up along the entire route as required.

As for the winds, its the same on the Westport greenway. Depends on which side you start.
Really do hope it gets the go ahead

From Galway to Oughterard most likely. But who do you ring if you are in between Oughterard and Maam Cross and you get a puncture on a Coke Bike?

As I said it would be great for the West if this got the go ahead, I just don't think it will prove as popular in the long run as Westport-Achill greenway. For local commuters yes but unless a serious Bike Hire operator opens up and follows the Westport companies model then no chance.

galwaycyclist

happyoutscan wrote: »

From Galway to Oughterard most likely. But who do you ring if you are in between Oughterard and Maam Cross and you get a puncture on a Coke Bike?

As I said it would be great for the West if this got the go ahead, I just don't think it will prove as popular in the long run as Westport-Achill greenway. For local commuters yes but unless a serious Bike Hire operator opens up and follows the Westport companies model then no chance.

The Westport model appears to be that cycling is something that is done by people who arrive by car and go home by car.

Perhaps in Galway some of us have a more inclusive vision.

crusier

happyoutscan wrote:

From Galway to Oughterard most likely. But who do you ring if you are in between Oughterard and Maam Cross and you get a puncture on a Coke Bike?

You make it sound like the coastguard would be needed, there is life out there and a faint mobile signal, no one would die of starvation.

happyoutscan

crusier wrote: »

You make it sound like the coastguard would be needed, there is life out there and a faint mobile signal, no one would die of starvation.

Good inclusive contribution that.

happyoutscan

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The Westport model appears to be that cycling is something that is done by people who arrive by car and go home by car.

It's called tourism.

galwaycyclist

happyoutscan wrote: »

It's called tourism.

No elsewhere in Europe that would be called a token cycle route. It is not connected to anything else. It is a "fragment" of a potential cycling tourism product.

happyoutscan

galwaycyclist wrote: »

No elsewhere in Europe that would be called a token cycle route. It is not connected to anything else. It is a "fragment" of a potential cycling tourism product.

Why compare it with anywhere in Europe?

It is a phenomenal success, so much so that the initial cost of €5.7 has pretty much been re-paid purely on tourism revenue.

galwaycyclist

happyoutscan wrote: »

Why compare it with anywhere in Europe?

It is a phenomenal success, so much so that the initial cost of €5.7 has pretty much been re-paid purely on tourism revenue.

I will see your €5.7million and raise it - raise it considerably.

http://www.eurovelo.com/en/news-items/european-cyclist2019s-federation-approves-extension-of-european-cycle-route-in-portugal

Cycling tourism is worth something like €9 Billion to the German economy or around 10% of tourism income. You do not build a tourism product like that based on a model where people are expected to drive around in cars looking for somewhere to hire a bike. You do not build an industry like that based on people cycling up and down on something as pathetically small as the Westport greenway.

what_traffic

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The Westport model appears to be that cycling is something that is done by people who arrive by car and go home by car.

Perhaps in Galway some of us have a more inclusive vision.

Good point. Now if you had a Greenway (could use some local roads here) from Clifden to Westport(via Leenaun) and the Connemara Greenway from Clifden to Galway, then one is building a true Network.

Let's not forget in this debate the benefit to the local Community's of Greenway' routes as a walking and cycling resource.

happyoutscan

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I will see your €5.7million and raise it - raise it considerably.

http://www.eurovelo.com/en/news-items/european-cyclist2019s-federation-approves-extension-of-european-cycle-route-in-portugal

Cycling tourism is worth something like €9 Billion to the German economy or around 10% of tourism income. You do not build a tourism product like that based on a model where people are expected to drive around in cars looking for somewhere to hire a bike. You do not build an industry like that based on people cycling up and down on something as pathetically small as the Westport greenway.

Between Westport, Newport, Mulranny and Achill there are roughly 8 bike hire companies. At least 4 of these operate a shuttle service that collects and drops off people to cycle however much or little people wish to do. It is a system that works considerably well for what it is. There are websites dedicated to it (http://www.greenway.ie/Bike-Rental-01.html) which outline the many features of it. People aren't driving around looking for a place to hire a bike because people aren't stupid, they have their homework done before visiting.

It doesn't matter how 'pathetically small' you may think it is, the Great Western Greenway has been a staggering success for the local economy. You can disagree all you wish and dismiss it but you are wrong. Why be so dismissive about it?

https://www.tripadvisor.ie/Attraction_Review-g186627-d2161996-Reviews-The_Great_Western_Greenway-Westport_County_Mayo_Western_Ireland.html

You can snigger at the €5.7 figure I threw out there, that was from a Failte Ireland report written 5 years ago when the overall popularity of the Greenway was actually miniscule compared to today.

In any event, I hope you get your Greenway up and running, it'll be another great addition to the west.

happyoutscan

The below is taken from the Failte Ireland report from 2011. I like the words 'local economy', which has been my point all along.



The Fitzpatrick’s report commissioned by Fáilte Ireland on the economic impact of the Greenway notes:
“Estimates derived from the study suggest that all direct expenditure associated with the Greenway would contribute to a projected €7.2m in spend in the local economy over a full year in 2011.

This expenditure includes:

• nearly €940,000 in expenditure by local residents, made up of 34,400 “visits” to or “uses” of the Greenway, at an average spend of €27.31 per visit or use
• over €3.5m in expenditure by domestic visitors, made up of 14,800 domestic visitors spending an average of €49.85 per day with an average length of stay of 4.8 days
• nearly €2.8m in expenditure by overseas visitors, made up of 8,000 overseas visitors spending an average of €50.71 per day with an average length of stay of 6.8 days
• contribution to a projected local economic impact of about €6.3m, which consists of nearly €2.8m in spend by overseas visitors and over €3.5m in spend by domestic visitors
• contribution to a projected national economic impact of nearly €2.8m, which consists of the spend by overseas visitors.

This can be found here: http://www.failteireland.ie/Best-Practice-Case-Studies/Category-2/The-Mayo-Greenway.aspx

galwaycyclist

happyoutscan wrote: »

The below is taken from the Failte Ireland report from 2011. I like the words 'local economy', which has been my point all along.



The Fitzpatrick’s report commissioned by Fáilte Ireland on the economic impact of the Greenway notes:
“Estimates derived from the study suggest that all direct expenditure associated with the Greenway would contribute to a projected €7.2m in spend in the local economy over a full year in 2011.

This expenditure includes:

• nearly €940,000 in expenditure by local residents, made up of 34,400 “visits” to or “uses” of the Greenway, at an average spend of €27.31 per visit or use
• over €3.5m in expenditure by domestic visitors, made up of 14,800 domestic visitors spending an average of €49.85 per day with an average length of stay of 4.8 days
• nearly €2.8m in expenditure by overseas visitors, made up of 8,000 overseas visitors spending an average of €50.71 per day with an average length of stay of 6.8 days
• contribution to a projected local economic impact of about €6.3m, which consists of nearly €2.8m in spend by overseas visitors and over €3.5m in spend by domestic visitors
• contribution to a projected national economic impact of nearly €2.8m, which consists of the spend by overseas visitors.

This can be found here: http://www.failteireland.ie/Best-Practice-Case-Studies/Category-2/The-Mayo-Greenway.aspx

This is exactly the point. The potential benefits are huge and if done correctly we could see multiples of this across the country.

However, Mayo did not invent cycling tourism and many would dispute descriptions of the the Westport Greenway as "world class". It is simply the best we have at the moment. Likewise the tourism product associated with the current greenway is very limited.

Mayo got lucky in that when funding came up it went to the Community and Enterprise Department of the County Council rather than the Roads Department.

It could just as easily been a similar cock up to Galway but the gods happened to flip the coin the right way for change.

Green Peter

galwaycyclist wrote:

Mayo got lucky in that when funding came up it went to the Community and Enterprise Department of the County Council rather than the Roads Department.

Mayo got lucky when the elected Michael Ring!!!!

nuac

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The Westport model appears to be that cycling is something that is done by people who arrive by car and go home by car.

Perhaps in Galway some of us have a more inclusive vision.

Obviously many visitors to West Mayo get there by rail, car or in some cases air. They then use the excellent bike hire services.

Local people cycle onto the Greenway

happyoutscan

what_traffic wrote: »

Good point. Now if you had a Greenway (could use some local roads here) from Clifden to Westport(via Leenaun) and the Connemara Greenway from Clifden to Galway, then one is building a true Network.

If this could happen and it was connected through the Inagh Valley (R344) from Recess to the N59 between Letterfrack and Leenaug it would be mind blowing. Some serious scenery and a stunning pristine lake along that stretch and very few houses/buildings if memory serves me correct.

I would guess it would be the only way to route the connection as the N59 from Clifden to Letterfrack is bad enough by road, not to mention cycling it.

It would be sheer lunacy to put cycling visitors on that stretch of road.

nuac

Green Peter wrote: »

Mayo got lucky when the elected Michael Ring!!!!

Yes, Ring has brought a lot of tourism investment to the County. but the Greenway plans predate his time in government

The Westport/Achill Greenway concept was planned and being worked on long before Ml Ring became a Minister. I recall discussion from at least 2007. The first stage was opened in 2010.