Galway to Moycullen Cycle Greenway?

Birroc

Is it true that the Galway to Moycullen cycle greenway has been approved for funding etc? I know the Oughterard-Clifden greenway got the go ahead but I haven't seen any media reports on Galway to Moycullen.

jkforde

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89987400&postcount=639

Newtogalway

Subject to negotiation with landowners due to privacy issues

BeardySi

Newtogalway wrote: »

Subject to negotiation with landowners due to privacy money issues

Fixed that for you...

spurscormac

Why shouldn't property owners negotiate a fair compensation for invasion of privacy?
If I owned a property along the route(which I don't, nor do I know anyone who does), and it was passing within a few metres of my house, I would be well within my rights to come to a reasonable arrangement regarding the route or protection of privacy, whether that's building a fence, planting trees etc.

I'm fully in favour of this greenway, the one in Mayo is excellent & I'll be returning for the 3rd time in 2 years next month.
However, in some locations it goes very close to people's houses, which personally, I would find invasive due to the sheer success of the greenway & numbers using it. I would assume the Moycullen-Galway route goes close too in some instances.
The success of the route would be best achieved through negotiated agreement with land/home owners.
That doesn't include some people holding the scheme to ransom, which is wrong, but a fair settlement where applicable is not unreasonable.

Micilin Muc

Any sign of construction of this yet?

monument

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Any sign of construction of this yet?

Don't think it has even gone to planning yet?

Iwannahurl

spurscormac wrote: »

Why shouldn't property owners negotiate a fair compensation for invasion of privacy?

If I owned a property along the route(which I don't, nor do I know anyone who does), and it was passing within a few metres of my house, I would be well within my rights to come to a reasonable arrangement regarding the route or protection of privacy, whether that's building a fence, planting trees etc.

The private versus public sphere is always an interesting, complex and probably vexed issue in this country.

For example, it would be interesting to know how public land (the route being a former railway line) was originally acquired by private interests. What compensation did the State get?

In Ireland major road schemes and other infrastructural projects are progressed through the use of Compulsory Purchase Orders.

Not so in the case of greenways. Instead the mechanism used is "permissive access".

http://www.irishtrails.ie/National_Trails_Office/Publications/Trail_Development/Guide_to_Planning_and_Developing_Recreational_Trails_in_Ireland.pdf

Permissive access works where landowners cooperate. Problems arise when landowners don't want to allow access, and afaik the only solution to such refusals is to divert the route. I recall one such diversion on the Newport-Achill Greenway where cyclists, including children, were shunted out onto a 100 km/h road.

The CPO approach is not being used for greenways because it's a complex legal business and costs money. CPOs are only used for Important Projects, and greenways -- despite their undoubted benefits -- are not classed as Important.

Also, my guess if that if a CPO was used to deal with recalcitrant landowners, the ones that had previously signed up under a permissive access arrangement might, on hearing money being mentioned, suddenly become less permissive.

Micilin Muc

monument wrote: »

Don't think it has even gone to planning yet?

Ah, I thought someone told me construction had already started but I hadn't seen any myself. I should have just Googled it.

According to Galway Bay FM:
* landowners will be consulted from September 2014
* Co. Council to prepare an Environmental Impact Study
* Planning application to An Bord Pleanála
* Project to go to public tender
* Construction which will take 6-8 months, not likely to start for over a year.

We're probably looking at it being opened in summer/autumn of 2016.

Newtogalway

It will be fantastic. I've been involved in 'not in my backyard' campaigns before but sometimes the greater good just has to prevail

Iwannahurl

Newtogalway wrote: »

It will be fantastic. I've been involved in 'not in my backyard' campaigns before but sometimes the greater good just has to prevail

As the term itself suggests, the Greater Good ought to prevail all the time.

Micilin Muc

Yes ... the Greater Good ...

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As the term itself suggests, the Greater Good ought to prevail all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpbOliTHJY

On a serious note, it can only be good for Moycullen tourism. It's currently not accessible by bike for typical greenway users, ie occasional cyclists and family spins etc.

Iwannahurl

The greenway from Moycullen to Galway will also be an ideal cycle route for commuters.

Foe example, there are more than a few NUI Galway employees (and probably students) living in the village.

When the greenway opens they can make legitimate use of their Bike to Work purchases...

happyoutscan

Where is the proposed start of the Greenway in Galway going to be does anyone know yet?

Iwannahurl

My guess is that it will link up with the greenway in the grounds of NUI Galway: http://galwayindependent.com/20140423/news/2-million-for-galway-greenway-S36646.html

In theory it could also link up with the river-side route and the small fragment of cycle path in South Park.

The powers that be are going to have to work a lot harder at connectivity, though. Currently they seem much too self-satisfied with bits and pieces of cycle paths here and there, though there are no connections between them.

As an example, just try crossing the Salmon Weir Bridge from the canal path to the NUI Galway greenway, with kids in tow.

nuac

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The private versus public sphere is always an interesting, complex and probably vexed issue in this country.

For example, it would be interesting to know how public land (the route being a former railway line) was originally acquired by private interests. What compensation did the State get?

In Ireland major road schemes and other infrastructural projects are progressed through the use of Compulsory Purchase Orders.

Not so in the case of greenways. Instead the mechanism used is "permissive access".

http://www.irishtrails.ie/National_Trails_Office/Publications/Trail_Development/Guide_to_Planning_and_Developing_Recreational_Trails_in_Ireland.pdf

Permissive access works where landowners cooperate. Problems arise when landowners don't want to allow access, and afaik the only solution to such refusals is to divert the route. I recall one such diversion on the Newport-Achill Greenway where cyclists, including children, were shunted out onto a 100 km/h road.

The CPO approach is not being used for greenways because it's a complex legal business and costs money. CPOs are only used for Important Projects, and greenways -- despite their undoubted benefits -- are not classed as Important.

Also, my guess if that if a CPO was used to deal with recalcitrant landowners, the ones that had previously signed up under a permissive access arrangement might, on hearing money being mentioned, suddenly become less permissive.

When the railways were being built the railway companies had power to acquire land by CPO provisions. For large tracts the land was still owned by local landlords who usually willingly provided the land to open up their estates. In the remote West many of these built about 1880/90s

When rail services were discontinued railway crossing cottages were sold off, and disused track sold to adjoining land owners. By that stage, approx 1940s in Mayo and Galway the landlords estates had been vested in the former tenants. Uusally the railway company sold stretches of old line to the adjoining farmers. Price may not have been very high, but there were also covenants to keep the fencing and drainage in order. The fencing and drainage covenants have come into play in some cases later.

In Mayo the County Council officials negotiated the permissive accesses with adjoining landowners. Local community groups, Leader etc were also involved.

It has been a very successful project. Brings lots of tourists to the area, and sustains employment there

Councils do have CPO powers, basically for the common good and where there is not alternative. Usually for housing, roads, industrial sites etc. Owner has right of appeal to ABP. Haven't so far heard of a CPO application for a Greenway. I imagine if the owner can offer or suggest a reasonable detour that the CPO would not succeed

Iwannahurl

Now that you mention it, I think I saw a mention recently of CPOs being used for a new greenway. Dublin-Galway perhaps?

nuac

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The private versus public sphere is always an interesting, complex and probably vexed issue in this country.

For example, it would be interesting to know how public land (the route being a former railway line) was originally acquired by private interests. What compensation did the State get?

In Ireland major road schemes and other infrastructural projects are progressed through the use of Compulsory Purchase Orders.

Not so in the case of greenways. Instead the mechanism used is "permissive access".

http://www.irishtrails.ie/National_Trails_Office/Publications/Trail_Development/Guide_to_Planning_and_Developing_Recreational_Trails_in_Ireland.pdf

Permissive access works where landowners cooperate. Problems arise when landowners don't want to allow access, and afaik the only solution to such refusals is to divert the route. I recall one such diversion on the Newport-Achill Greenway where cyclists, including children, were shunted out onto a 100 km/h road.

The CPO approach is not being used for greenways because it's a complex legal business and costs money. CPOs are only used for Important Projects, and greenways -- despite their undoubted benefits -- are not classed as Important.

Also, my guess if that if a CPO was used to deal with recalcitrant landowners, the ones that had previously signed up under a permissive access arrangement might, on hearing money being mentioned, suddenly become less permissive.

Sorry double post

pat25c

Has work even started yet?

Flyingsolo

Just on planning, construction not starting until February 2016 according to dttas

Baggy Trousers

Flyingsolo wrote: »

Just on planning, construction not starting until February 2016 according to dttas

When is completion date?

Flyingsolo

Looks like December 2016 according to the report
Planning & Eis started 2014-2015
Construction February -December 2016
I will share the link when I get a chance

pat25c

Just wondering if there is any update on the greenway besides landowner opposition?

Worn Out

Any news here?
Galway is missing out on this opportunity.
Today we drove 1.5 hours to Newport and spent a fun family day cycling the Mayo green way.
If only we could have cycled though Connemara or east towards Dublin instead.
Newport looks a pretty and lively place regenerated off the back of all the new tourism.
Imagine the benefits financially, socially and for health if this was up and running in Galway.

nuac

Yes the Greenway Westport/Castlebar/Newport/Achill has been a great success. Lots cycle it even in off season.

Perhaps Galway Co Co should employ the Mayo Co Co Greenway project team as consultants:)

Green Peter

I think the plan is to continue to run down the N59 until it becomes impassable for cars and hey presto you have your Greenway, it shouldn't be long! A ferry will operate from galway to maam bridge with a stop off in oughterard. a cable car system will operate across the mountains from Clifden to maam bridge to connect with the ferry. The national parks and wildlife are not objecting to the ferry or cable car system unless birds nest in them, if that happens a tunnel will be built under the twelve pins in 2099. Natives will be exiled in Syria in the meantime.

galwaycyclist

nuac wrote: »

Yes the Greenway Westport/Castlebar/Newport/Achill has been a great success. Lots cycle it even in off season.

Perhaps Galway Co Co should employ the Mayo Co Co Greenway project team as consultants:)

A variation on this theme has already been suggested. There would be a view that the Mayo project was a success because the lead agency was the Community and Enterprise Department of Mayo County Council.

There would also be a view that the Galway projects, Galway - Dublin, Galway - Oughterard, Oughterard - Clifden have gone nowhere or have been a disaster because the lead agency was the Roads Department of Galway County Council.

There may be a lesson in that.

Baggy Trousers

We should email Kyne and CuivO to see where the greenway is at.
I somehow think it will never happen.

Private Joker

Plans of the proposed route are available to view on the county councils website http://www.galway.ie/en/services/roads/connemaragreenway/

The EIS is in the process of being prepared and should be nearly completed. it was supposed to go for planning early this year but there has been a lot of opposition by landowners to the scheme http://www.galwayindependent.com/news/topics/articles/2015/12/10/4111090-greenway-will-take-our-livelihoods-claim-connemara-landowners--/

Initially it was supposed to be worked on a permissive access arrangement with the landowners like the westport greenway but with the level of opposition this looks like it wont happen . therefore it would require a political decision from government to purchase the lands , either through CPO or by agreement .

So in other words, this wont be happening anytime soon.

Private Joker

galwaycyclist wrote: »

There would also be a view that the Galway projects, Galway - Dublin, Galway - Oughterard, Oughterard - Clifden have gone nowhere or have been a disaster because the lead agency was the Roads Department of Galway County Council.

There may be a lesson in that.

Galway to dublin is the TII/NRA, oughterard to clifden already has planning but no funding.

the westport greenway has its share of problems too , some of the landowners have effectively closed the route because of a disagreement with the council over other issues.

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

oughterard to clifden already has planning but no funding.

Uh "technically" yes. "Actually" the route that came out of the planning process (and was endorsed by An Bord Pleanala) was modified during that planning process without the knowledge of some of the landowners.

So it went through "planning" yes but the route is not "agreed".

Private Joker

Without funding it won't get built anyway

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

Without funding it won't get built anyway

Perhaps, but it would be a profound mistake to put it out there that all is needed is for someone to come up with funding and the thing will happen.

If somebody in a "position of influence" were to suddenly announce "funding" the likely effect would be to harden opposition among landowners who have already been extremely poorly treated and have no sense of humour left regarding these things.

Trying to use "planning" as a "chancers charter" when you need community buy-in would probably kill the project.

Private Joker

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Perhaps, but it would be a profound mistake to put it out there that all is needed is for someone to come up with funding and the thing will happen.

If somebody in a "position of influence" were to suddenly announce "funding" the likely effect would be to harden opposition among landowners who have already been extremely poorly treated and have no sense of humour left regarding these things.

Trying to use "planning" as a "chancers charter" when you need community buy-in would probably kill the project.

How do you deal with landowners who don't want it in any shape or form through their lands ? Don't get me wrong I have sympathy for those directly affected who are not being offered any form of compensation .
The vast majority of the community want this greenway and it seems the only objections are from the landowners directly affected . CPO is the only way to proceed imo , if your spending millions on infrastructure it should be in public ownership , this needs to be a ministerial decision and I don't see an interim minister making that decision .

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

How do you deal with landowners who don't want it in any shape or form through their lands ? Don't get me wrong I have sympathy for those directly affected who are not being offered any form of compensation .
The vast majority of the community want this greenway and it seems the only objections are from the landowners directly affected . CPO is the only way to proceed imo , if your spending millions on infrastructure it should be in public ownership , this needs to be a ministerial decision and I don't see an interim minister making that decision .

On what basis are you claiming that landowners don't want it through their land in any form? It was the council roads department who insisted on following the old railway regardless of the current suitability. The fact remains that the manner in which the council roads department conducted this project, and other similar projects, has mobilised powerful interests such as the IFA against greenways.

People had been working on this for years, decades, and there were the bones of a consensus route in place. Then the council roads department came in and destroyed it.

Private Joker

galwaycyclist wrote: »

On what basis are you claiming that landowners don't want it through their land in any form? It was the council roads department who insisted on following the old railway regardless of the current suitability. The fact remains that the manner in which the council roads department conducted this project, and other similar projects, has mobilised powerful interests such as the IFA against greenways.

People had been working on this for years, decades, and there were the bones of a consensus route in place. Then the council roads department came in and destroyed it.

It was the national cycle network strategy plan to use toepaths and disused railway lines . The route is mostly in place from Dublin to athlone along canal toepaths and the old mullingar athlone railway line, it's where it deviated off those routes onto farm land that opposition was encountered and rightly so.

Connemara is a patchwork of sac nha and spa , if you read the eis from the clifden to oughterard scheme you will see that the disused railway line is classified as disturbed habitat , making it the only viable route other than following the existing road network .

When you see signs like" greenway, no way " going up along the proposed route it shows that landowners might not be for it . Just an opinion .

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

It was the national cycle network strategy plan to use toepaths and disused railway lines . The route is mostly in place from Dublin to athlone along canal toepaths and the old mullingar athlone railway line, it's where it deviated off those routes onto farm land that opposition was encountered and rightly so.

Connemara is a patchwork of sac nha and spa , if you read the eis from the clifden to oughterard scheme you will see that the disused railway line is classified as disturbed habitat , making it the only viable route other than following the existing road network .

When you see signs like" greenway, no way " going up along the proposed route it shows that landowners might not be for it . Just an opinion .

Sure and that makes sense where they are in public ownership. But the national cycle network strategy was put together by the NRA - this leads to suspicion that it was drafted by roads engineers for roads engineers. The previous Failte Ireland cycling tourism strategy advocated using the network of minor roads and booreens we have around this country. The point being that there are alternative ways of creating viable attractive cycling routes. This is what happens elsewhere much of the Eurovelo network uses public roads that are still open to low levels of motor traffic.

There are other examples of disturbed ground in the SAC (special areas of conservation) that are not railway. There is an abandoned road east of Lough Uraid heading towards Maam Cross. So when the council say they can use the abandoned railway, but can't use abandoned roads, people start to smell a rat. Also not all of the ground in the SACs are protected habitat. It is not all bog. Some of it is wet heath that likely could bear a cycle path without impacting the protected part.

Private Joker

very true and its great to have an informed discussion on this issue . I'm not sure of the thinking around the route selection but i would assume it was to take the shortest route , if you follow the roads and boreens a 27km route could end up at 35km , which would push people out on to the N59, which for the most part is not suitable for cyclists .
While its true that a percentage of the eurovelo routes are along existing roads but those countries dont have the same level of ribbon developments and high levels of local traffic , to add to that sight lines would probably have to opened up on blind bends and roads would need to be widened which would have a greater effect on dwelling houses . all it would take is one road death and the popularity of it would plummet.
The whole community will benefit from this , i would say it will be a lot more popular than the westport greenway but only if its done properly . I cant see anybody choosing cycling on local roads in connemara, something which they can do now over the westport greenway.

galwaycyclist

Private Joker wrote: »

very true and its great to have an informed discussion on this issue . I'm not sure of the thinking around the route selection but i would assume it was to take the shortest route , if you follow the roads and boreens a 27km route could end up at 35km , which would push people out on to the N59, which for the most part is not suitable for cyclists .
While its true that a percentage of the eurovelo routes are along existing roads but those countries dont have the same level of ribbon developments and high levels of local traffic , to add to that sight lines would probably have to opened up on blind bends and roads would need to be widened which would have a greater effect on dwelling houses . all it would take is one road death and the popularity of it would plummet.
The whole community will benefit from this , i would say it will be a lot more popular than the westport greenway but only if its done properly . I cant see anybody choosing cycling on local roads in connemara, something which they can do now over the westport greenway.

I think the informed view would be to keep it away from the N59 as much as possible. On this note, from memory, for the section after Oughterard, the original council plan was to incorporate the route into the N59 as a sidepath for a block of about 11km. This is one of the things that got changed at the Bord Pleanala hearing - but without the knowledge of the landowners.

One side effect of how the NRA and County Council Roads department have behaved is that they have now created an active lobby group who are going around arguing that these routes should be incorporated directly into the N59, old N6 etc.

This would be a disaster from a tourism product perspective.

It would be all over trip advisor the day it opened and would make Galway a laughing stock.

Do local boreens necessarily have to have high levels of traffic? Is the traffic local? I would say around Moycullen it isn't and that much of the traffic is people trying to rat-run around the village or rat-run past traffic jams on the N59. A few strategic road closures would fix that. Also the speed limit regime in this country of 80kmh on minor roads is bizarre. It would not happen in the Netherlands or Germany. Do the people in ribbon developments really want strangers in cars whizzing past their gates? Would the people in ribbon developments not also like to be able to walk or cycle or let their children walk or cycle?

nuac

Sorry to see little progress on this.

As I mentioned at post 10 at start of this thread I don't thing a contested CPO application would succeed for a Greenway. There are degrees of common good. The land owner could validly suggest other routes etc.

The permissive access method and community involvement are the way to go.

Has worked in Mayo for the Westport-Achill Greeway.

happyoutscan

Private Joker wrote: »

very true and its great to have an informed discussion on this issue . I'm not sure of the thinking around the route selection but i would assume it was to take the shortest route , if you follow the roads and boreens a 27km route could end up at 35km , which would push people out on to the N59, which for the most part is not suitable for cyclists .
While its true that a percentage of the eurovelo routes are along existing roads but those countries dont have the same level of ribbon developments and high levels of local traffic , to add to that sight lines would probably have to opened up on blind bends and roads would need to be widened which would have a greater effect on dwelling houses . all it would take is one road death and the popularity of it would plummet.
The whole community will benefit from this , i would say it will be a lot more popular than the westport greenway but only if its done properly . I cant see anybody choosing cycling on local roads in connemara, something which they can do now over the westport greenway.

Not a chance it will be more popular than the Achill-Westport greenway, not in a million years.

stampydmonkey

happyoutscan wrote: »

Not a chance it will be more popular than the Achill-Westport greenway, not in a million years.

Why not pray tell?

happyoutscan

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Why not pray tell?

The vast majority of users on the Westport-Achill stretch are novice cyclists, pensioners and families. The primary reason for the popularity is - not including the immense draw that Westport has - that there are no great distances between services that can cater to the above:

- Achill Sound to Mulranny is an easy 12km with a few eateries/ shops in both
- Mulranny to Newport is 18km with pit stops at Yvonne's Cottage and Nevin's for food and drinks. Both of these have paths direct from the Greenway to their front door. Newport also has eateries/shops as well.
- Newport to Westport is another 12km albeit not as flat or scenic as the initial 30km from Achill to Newport.

Now if you consider the amount of novice cycling families with young kids on bikes and moms/dads pulling trailers/tag-a-longs you need the short stretches between services. This has been shown over the last few years. Novice cyclists want easy cycling. A good example of this is the lack of popularity among families to cycle the 12km stretch between Newport-Westport due to the few hills that are on this stretch (and they are barely even hills!).

I think the Galway to Clifden line (if it hopefully gets the go ahead) will be popular from Galway-Moycullen-Oughterard because at least the distances between aren't too excessive:
- Galway to Moycullen 12km
- Moycullen to Oughterard 14km
I don't know if there are any pub grub/shops between these towns.

From Oughterard to Maam Cross you have 30km and then a further 34km onto Clifden. Inexperienced cyclists from pensioners to families haven't a notion of cycling these distances without any services in between. Sure you have Recess but is there anything even there, is the pub serving food? Add on mechanical failures, punctures and kids losing interest to the disinterest in this stretch as well. You also need to consider that if cycling from Galway outwards from Oughterard you are heading straight into the usual westerly winds. Suitable for experienced cyclists of course but not for families. As it is in Westport most cyclists try to start in Achill and finish in Westport taking advantage of the wind.

As for bike hire companies is it sustainable to operate along a 77km stretch of Greenway?

Baggy Trousers

I think a greenway from Oughterard to Galway would get a lot of use from commuters. There are a lot of people in west Galway working in UCG and the hospital and would welcome the chance of exercise in the morning/evening.

I did hear that landowners are blocking certain stretches again so it might be a very long wait.

stampydmonkey

happyoutscan

I don't know about bike hire. But I would imagine with the population, tourist, cycling base in Galway and the availability of coke bikes that it would be very very popular. I could see sections of it being a lot more popular than Westport.

As you are saying, the Galway to Moycullen/Oughterard route more so than further north but I would imagine/hope camping/break sites would pop up along the entire route as required.

As for the winds, its the same on the Westport greenway. Depends on which side you start.
Really do hope it gets the go ahead

happyoutscan

stampydmonkey wrote: »

happyoutscan

I don't know about bike hire. But I would imagine with the population, tourist, cycling base in Galway and the availability of coke bikes that it would be very very popular. I could see sections of it being a lot more popular than Westport.

As you are saying, the Galway to Moycullen/Oughterard route more so than further north but I would imagine/hope camping/break sites would pop up along the entire route as required.

As for the winds, its the same on the Westport greenway. Depends on which side you start.
Really do hope it gets the go ahead

From Galway to Oughterard most likely. But who do you ring if you are in between Oughterard and Maam Cross and you get a puncture on a Coke Bike?

As I said it would be great for the West if this got the go ahead, I just don't think it will prove as popular in the long run as Westport-Achill greenway. For local commuters yes but unless a serious Bike Hire operator opens up and follows the Westport companies model then no chance.

galwaycyclist

happyoutscan wrote: »

From Galway to Oughterard most likely. But who do you ring if you are in between Oughterard and Maam Cross and you get a puncture on a Coke Bike?

As I said it would be great for the West if this got the go ahead, I just don't think it will prove as popular in the long run as Westport-Achill greenway. For local commuters yes but unless a serious Bike Hire operator opens up and follows the Westport companies model then no chance.

The Westport model appears to be that cycling is something that is done by people who arrive by car and go home by car.

Perhaps in Galway some of us have a more inclusive vision.

crusier

happyoutscan wrote:

From Galway to Oughterard most likely. But who do you ring if you are in between Oughterard and Maam Cross and you get a puncture on a Coke Bike?

You make it sound like the coastguard would be needed, there is life out there and a faint mobile signal, no one would die of starvation.

happyoutscan

crusier wrote: »

You make it sound like the coastguard would be needed, there is life out there and a faint mobile signal, no one would die of starvation.

Good inclusive contribution that.

happyoutscan

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The Westport model appears to be that cycling is something that is done by people who arrive by car and go home by car.

It's called tourism.

galwaycyclist

happyoutscan wrote: »

It's called tourism.

No elsewhere in Europe that would be called a token cycle route. It is not connected to anything else. It is a "fragment" of a potential cycling tourism product.