Proof of no convictions in Ireland

kosomoko

Hello everyone,

I moved to the UK from Ireland about a year ago and have been offered a job that requires a level of security clearance. To get this, I need proof that I have no convictions in Ireland. All I need is some official looking document from the Gardaí that says who I am and states that I have no convictions - should be simple, right?

Apparently it's not... I wrote to the Superintendent at the Garda station near where I used to live to ask for a Police Certificate, he returned my documents and informed me that they only issue these for visa purposes and won't give me one in this case. He also directed me to the Garda Vetting Unit in Tipperary.

I contacted them, they told me to send them a Data Protection form along with €6.35. I did this; the letter they sent back to me is pathetically vague, and it begins with "This document should not be construed as Proof of No Convictions...", so obviously it is worthless.

Garda Vetting does not apply here since I am not in Ireland, so how do people deal with this situation?

I have looked around the internet and found a lot of people getting very angry with the same problem, but no good solutions. This seems like a pretty simple thing and I'm sure it comes up a lot, so what can I do?

Thanks for any help.

Little CuChulainn

I'd imagine the Garda Vetting is the one you need. I believe the disclaimer is in case you have used false information. It's basically saying that the person holding the form and the person described in the form may not be the same person.

kosomoko

As I mentioned, Garda Vetting is not applicable as I am in the UK, not Ireland. Also, if I am not mistaken, how that works is that one's employer applies for it, rather than the individual employee, so this is not what I need.

I think you're right about the reason for the disclaimer, and that is precisely the reason why it is of no use.

Little CuChulainn

You could submit a data protection request for all convictions under your name with your previous addresses as listed.

kosomoko

That's exactly what I did, I gave them every address where I've ever lived.

However, I'm sure this letter is just a standard thing that they send to everyone. I can't just ask them to not put that disclaimer on there.

Little CuChulainn

kosomoko wrote: »

That's exactly what I did, I gave them every address where I've ever lived.

However, I'm sure this letter is just a standard thing that they send to everyone. I can't just ask them to not put that disclaimer on there.

I mean this one

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Data%20Protection%20F20%20-%20Nov%2012.pdf

kosomoko

Yes, that's the one I sent them.

average_runner

Just hire a company to do it for u. Give them all ur addresses over last five years

kosomoko

What use would that be? My prospective employer needs confirmation from the Gardaí that I don't have a record. How would a private company even be able to access that information anyway?

Little CuChulainn

kosomoko wrote: »

Yes, that's the one I sent them.

Sorry, I completely misread your OP. According to the Garda site the police cert is also issued for establishing business in other EU states so I would think it should be covered.

http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?Page=1548

kosomoko

Sorry, I completely misread your OP. According to the Garda site the police cert is also issued for establishing business in other EU states so I would think it should be covered.

That page says starting a business, not taking up employment. I have already asked for a police certificate and explained my precise circumstances, and the superintendent was pretty clear in his response that they do not issue police certificates for this purpose.

Grab All Association

Slight problem with the Data Protection Access Request route

Please Note:
1. Request in writing should be made and signed by the applicant in person.
2. A disclosure of personal data under the Data Protection Act 1988/2003 should not be
construed as Garda Vetting, Police Certificate, Garda Reference or Security Clearance.
3. Within the terms of the Data Protection Act 1988/2003, An Garda Siochana will respond
to your request for personal data within 40 days.
4. Requests should be submitted to: Data Protection Processing Unit, Garda Criminal
Records Office, Racecourse Road, Thurles, Co. Tipperary.


Police Certificate should be sufficient

Euthro

I was in a similar position for an employer in the us, I said I needed it for visa purposes and had my friend pick it at the local station and email it on to me. All the form said was no criminal record on Gardai headed paper and a gardai stamp. Did the job for me.

kosomoko

Yes... I don't think the data protection route is going anywhere.

I agree that a police certificate would be perfect, but as we have discussed... they won't give me one.

Here is an extract from the response I got:

Reference to your application for a Police Certificate. We regret to inform you that we do not issue police certificates of character to people who reside within the European Union. We issue certificates if they are required for a visa for a country outside of the European Union. We would also inform you that we do not issue Garda Clearance Certificates for Employment purposes and would refer you to the Garda Vetting Office, Racecourse Road, Thurles, Co. Tipperary.

kosomoko

I was in a similar position for an employer in the us, I said I needed it for visa purposes and had my friend pick it at the local station and email it on to me. All the form said was no criminal record on Gardai headed paper and a gardai stamp. Did the job for me.

I would like to avoid lying to them, come on... I should not have to lie to get such a basic thing done, there must be a better way.

macscoob

Simple tell them you want it for a visa???????? No

Little CuChulainn

I'd call the district office and ask them what you are supposed to do and point them towards the Garda website link I showed you. Tell them Garda vetting is not appropriate as you are not an employer and your emplyment is outside the state. You might need to try a few times until you get speaking to someone with intelligence.

kosomoko

I'll make a few calls tomorrow. I also thought of calling the Irish embassy to see if they have anything useful to say.

If I find out anything worthwhile, I'll post it here.

PS - I was going to post a redacted version of the letter they sent me as a result of my data protection request, but the site apparently doesn't trust me with attachments because I am a new user.

Inconspicuous

kosomoko wrote: »

I'll make a few calls tomorrow. I also thought of calling the Irish embassy to see if they have anything useful to say.

If I find out anything worthwhile, I'll post it here.

PS - I was going to post a redacted version of the letter they sent me as a result of my data protection request, but the site apparently doesn't trust me with attachments because I am a new user.

I've generally found AGS as an organisation unwilling to help in situations like these as they don't seem to understand that in practically all other countries there is officially recognised and standarised security clearance levels used by government departments and that private organisations carrying out work for government depts. must have their staff vetted to a particular security level. As this situation does not happen here (or in very rare circumstances), they are unwilling to recognise the need for this type of vetting service.

One route you could try that may be acceptable to your employer is submitting a data protection request to the Irish Courts Service. They have a record of all cases from District to Supreme court level and should be able to conduct a search to see if there are any convictions registered against you.

Apparantly I'm too new of a user to post links, but a quick google will turn up their data protection policy which will show you the data they keep and how you can access it.

Failing that, your best option may just be to say it's for a visa application as has been suggested earlier.

kosomoko

Thank you for the suggestion about the courts service. However, I think it's unlikely that their response will be any more useful than the one from the Garda vetting office.

I spoke to the person who handles Police certificates at my former local Garda station yesterday. She informed me that she would discuss it with her superior and get back to me. After a few days when she inevitably doesn't get back to me, I will call again.

I'm also waiting for advice on the situation from my prospective employer.

I did not expect any of this to be a speedy process.

What worries me about the option of lying and saying I need it for a visa (aside from the act of lying) is the fact that at some stage, somebody will probably get in touch with whoever signed off on the certificate to ensure that it is legitimate. It could then potentially emerge that I had lied and I would prefer for that situation not to arise.

---

For completeness, when I called the Garda vetting office again, they were laughably unhelpful. The Irish embassy understood the issue, but were unable to do anything other than tell me that as far as they know, the Garda vetting office is meant to take care of this.

flazio

kosomoko wrote: »

For completeness, when I called the Garda vetting office again, they were laughably unhelpful. The Irish embassy understood the issue, but were unable to do anything other than tell me that as far as they know, the Garda vetting office is meant to take care of this.

Hmm, I wonder if it's time to get the Ombudsman involved.

kosomoko

I think that would be a bit severe. I'm not aiming to take up some campaign against them, I just want to get this finished.

It's not that they were insulting. It was that their attitude was "Sorry, I realise this is bad, but we can't do anything."

iceage

If your prospective new Employer requires it, they will request it directly.

kosomoko

Request it directly from whom? The Gardaí? They have not, they asked me.

I was also required to get a certificate from an organisation called Disclosure Scotland as proof that I do not have any UK convictions. Again, they asked me to get it. This appears to be how things are done in the UK (in the particular industry with which I am involved, at least; I have seen the same from other companies), I suppose they anticipated that a similar system would operate in Ireland and made the very reasonable assumption that it would not be difficult for me to obtain a document from the Gardaí that simply states that I have never been convicted of a crime.

kosomoko

I have finally managed to reach an understanding with the staff at my former local Garda station; they have agreed to issue a Police Certificate and I did not need to make some phony visa application.

So to summarise this for anyone else in the same situation who comes across this thread in the future, here is what you need to do...

Contact your local Garda station by post or by email. You will need to give them the following:

1 - Your name and date of birth.
2 - A list of every address where you have ever lived and the dates when you lived there.
3 - A copy of your passport and birth certificate. They will accept scans sent via email, but they must be certified copies i.e. they must be stamped at a police station (this can be a foreign police station) to verify that the copy is accurate.
4 - The reason why you require the Police Certificate.

They may be reluctant to cooperate and will probably try to send you to the Garda vetting office. The letter that the Garda vetting office will send you is of no use, make sure that you explain this very carefully. Tell them that the letter the Garda vetting office sends starts off with the words "This document should not be construed as Proof of No Convictionsm a Police Certificate, a Garda Reference or Garda Vetting." and that it is therefore of no use to you as proof of no convictions is exactly what you require.

In my case, this was sufficient for them to agree to issue a Police Certificate.

Thank you everyone for your replies.

Potential-Monke

Just want to add my bit there kosomoko. What was done for you will not be done for everyone. You were lucky to find someone willing to do that for you, but i will guarantee 100% that this will not be done for all. What you were looking for, proof of no convictions, can be done. But, the process is different in Ireland. Your prospective employer makes the request on your behalf. That is the only way it will be done. Every day people come in looking for Police Certificates, or Proof of No Convictions, and every day i tell them the same thing:

- Local Stations issue Police Certificates for Visa Applications only
- Central Vetting Unit complete Data Protection Requests for individuals
- Central Vetting Unit complete Police Certificates for employers

If your prospective employer is not willing to make the request on your behalf, then the Data Protection Request has to do them, as there should have been/is no other way to get it. You were lucky.

circular flexing

The equivalent certificate from France can be got in under 3 days and is done online. Submit the request, provide a photocopy of your passport and it's in Ireland within 3 days.

Pity the Irish system can't be the same.

discus

Its such a nuisance. I had to get one of these a while ago. I've met s few irish lads who were in limbo in the uk waiting for jobs, all because they couldnt get a certificate of character from ireland. Jesus wept, its such a simple thing to do.

glacon

Hi Kosomoko,
Did you solve your problem? I'm exactly in the same situation. I need a proof of no conviction, I got the same response from the Gadrai and got the useless certificate from the Data Protection Processing Unit. Would be grateful for help.

civdef

Is it for an official government security clearance? - I went through the process a couple of times for jobs in the UK and it was handled through the UK, I just gave all my previous addresses etc and was last I had to do, they contacted AGS etc.

easygoing1982

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Just want to add my bit there kosomoko. What was done for you will not be done for everyone. You were lucky to find someone willing to do that for you, but i will guarantee 100% that this will not be done for all. What you were looking for, proof of no convictions, can be done. But, the process is different in Ireland. Your prospective employer makes the request on your behalf. That is the only way it will be done. Every day people come in looking for Police Certificates, or Proof of No Convictions, and every day i tell them the same thing:

- Local Stations issue Police Certificates for Visa Applications only
- Central Vetting Unit complete Data Protection Requests for individuals
- Central Vetting Unit complete Police Certificates for employers

If your prospective employer is not willing to make the request on your behalf, then the Data Protection Request has to do them, as there should have been/is no other way to get it. You were lucky.

Is this just be unhelpful. How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal. Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone.

Little CuChulainn

easygoing1982 wrote: »

Is this just be unhelpful. How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal. Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone.

Yes.

easygoing1982

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Yes.

A blanket answer of yes doesn't help im afraid when ive asked:


Is this just being unhelpful?

How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal?

Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone?

Little CuChulainn

easygoing1982 wrote: »

A blanket answer of yes doesn't help im afraid when ive asked:


Is this just being unhelpful?

How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal?

Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone?

Yes you can be sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone. This is the real world effect of eroding the power of discretion and proactively disciplining the most minor of code breaches.

Potential-Monke

easygoing1982 wrote: »

Is this just be unhelpful. How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal. Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone.

It's not being unhelpful, it's giving the facts. If someone else managed to get one through some other means, then fair play, but what I posted is the truth. Stations do not do Police Certificates for just anyone.

And we're likely to get sacked/disciplined even by posting anonymously on the internet.

Yamanoto

I'm in a similar position to the OP & have found the process thus far to be both frustrating & unnecessarily convoluted.

I'm self-employed, based in Ireland & will be undertaking work for a German firm who require a police certificate / proof of no criminal record to satisfy their own internal procedures. I initially applied in writing to my local Superintendent, but was contacted to say Police Certs are only issued for visa applications and suchlike. I was directed to the Garda vetting unit & explained to them what I required & was advised to submit form F20 (Request for personal Data under Section 4 Data Protection Act 1988 & 2003). I was told to specify on the form that I request a copy of personal data that may be in existence within AGS specifically in respect of any prior convictions.

Three weeks on, correspondence arrives from AGS vetting unit advising that "This search failed to reveal any personal data in relation to you and accoprdingly there is no attachment containing data as required under Section 4 of the Data protection Act 1988/2003".

This is unfortunately preceded by the following in bold:

This document should not be construed as Proof of No Convictions, a Police certificate, a Garda Reference or Garda Vetting

I'm naturally reticent to forward that form on to the firm I'll be doing business with, though having spoken again with AGS vetting, they're telling me it's not possible to receive confirmation of no previous criminal convictions. That frankly seems odd to me & am wondering how best to proceed (quickly) from here.

Any thoughts or ideas much appreciated.

CB19Kevo

Yamanoto wrote: »

I'm in a similar position to the OP & have found the process thus far to be both frustrating & unnecessarily convoluted.

I'm self-employed, based in Ireland & will be undertaking work for a German firm who require a police certificate / proof of no criminal record to satisfy their own internal procedures. I initially applied in writing to my local Superintendent, but was contacted to say Police Certs are only issued for visa applications and suchlike. I was directed to the Garda vetting unit & explained to them what I required & was advised to submit form F20 (Request for personal Data under Section 4 Data Protection Act 1988 & 2003). I was told to specify on the form that I request a copy of personal data that may be in existence within AGS specifically in respect of any prior convictions.

Three weeks on, correspondence arrives from AGS vetting unit advising that "This search failed to reveal any personal data in relation to you and accoprdingly there is no attachment containing data as required under Section 4 of the Data protection Act 1988/2003".

This is unfortunately preceded by the following in bold:



I'm naturally reticent to forward that form on to the firm I'll be doing business with, though having spoken again with AGS vetting, they're telling me it's not possible to receive confirmation of no previous criminal convictions. That frankly seems odd to me & am wondering how best to proceed (quickly) from here.

Any thoughts or ideas much appreciated.

i have used that document as a vetting form before,It states there is no records relating to you,That should be good enough for most employers,If any issue,make them aware that you cannot obtain a standard garda vetting in Ireland and provide evidence of this.

Silly really that no proper system is in place such as the UK CRB/DBS

Little CuChulainn

Yamanoto wrote: »

I'm in a similar position to the OP & have found the process thus far to be both frustrating & unnecessarily convoluted.

I'm self-employed, based in Ireland & will be undertaking work for a German firm who require a police certificate / proof of no criminal record to satisfy their own internal procedures. I initially applied in writing to my local Superintendent, but was contacted to say Police Certs are only issued for visa applications and suchlike. I was directed to the Garda vetting unit & explained to them what I required & was advised to submit form F20 (Request for personal Data under Section 4 Data Protection Act 1988 & 2003). I was told to specify on the form that I request a copy of personal data that may be in existence within AGS specifically in respect of any prior convictions.

Three weeks on, correspondence arrives from AGS vetting unit advising that "This search failed to reveal any personal data in relation to you and accoprdingly there is no attachment containing data as required under Section 4 of the Data protection Act 1988/2003".

This is unfortunately preceded by the following in bold:



I'm naturally reticent to forward that form on to the firm I'll be doing business with, though having spoken again with AGS vetting, they're telling me it's not possible to receive confirmation of no previous criminal convictions. That frankly seems odd to me & am wondering how best to proceed (quickly) from here.

Any thoughts or ideas much appreciated.

It just means it cannot guarantee that you have not lied about your identity in the present or past. The document relates to info help on the person whose details were submitted, and this may not be you.

Yamanoto

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It just means it cannot guarantee that you have not lied about your identity in the present or past. The document relates to info help on the person whose details were submitted, and this may not be you.

Still leaves me in a position where I'm unable to attain a document that's fit for purpose & that should be readily available to anyone capable of establishing their bona fides to an agreed standard.

Just seems like a common sense blind spot in the current system.

discus

glacon wrote: »

Hi Kosomoko,
Did you solve your problem? I'm exactly in the same situation. I need a proof of no conviction, I got the same response from the Gadrai and got the useless certificate from the Data Protection Processing Unit. Would be grateful for help.

I had to call in a favour off a high ranking Garda.

circular flexing

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Silly really that no proper system is in place such as the UK CRB/DBS

Maybe I'm not reading it right but a DBS check is employer requested.

Only employers and licensing bodies can request a DBS check. Job applicants can’t do a criminal records check on themselves.

https://www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check/overview

which I think is similar to Garda vetting?

I would have thought the potential employers themselves should be the ones doing the background check.

fisherman_joe

I wish I had seen this before waiting 5 weeks for a document that is essentially useless.

The process here is laughably easy in comparison for getting proof of no criminal convictions.
I filled out a form, paid it in the afternoon, and had the certificate in my postbox the next morning.

I'm honestly not sure what I should do now.

Mycroft H

I think the DBS in the UK contact AGS on your behalf. That's what I'm lead to belive as I've to fill in one soon enough.

Bad_alibi

I've done this before and it's fairly straight forward I can't see the confusion. If you require Garda vetting you fill out the form with all your details and addresses. Enter your new employers details and return the form to YUOR employer/HR section. They then forward the form to the Garda vetting unit on your behalf and the vetting unit return clearance to your employer.

My partner used this before when they worked in the UK

kosomoko

Hello,

The OP returns.  I would like to offer some further information and some commentary on the discussion that took place after I left.

Several people have said that either one's employer in the UK or DBS (or UKSV, as it seems to be now) will do the usual Garda vetting process as if they were an Irish company.  I don't know if this is ever true when one needs a UK government security clearance, but it was certainly not true in my case - obtaining SC clearance to work in the nuclear industry.  In such a case, if you are asked for a "Police Certificate", then I don't believe that you have any recourse but to somehow extract one from the Gardaí - attempting to reason with a nuclear industry company or any security/defence oriented company on this matter is almost certainly futile as their rules are even more inflexible and unreasonable than the rules surrounding Garda Police Certificates.

Secondly, I would like to address the comments saying that the member who did it for me could have been disciplined/sacked.  I eventually got the police certificate only after a lengthy correspondance with the Superintendent at the Garda station near my old house, whom I had never met before this.  It is clear that he bent the rule slightly to help me.  However, considering his rank, I'm sure he understood the rules very clearly and would not have put himself at any actual risk.  I also sent him emails between me and my employer which showed that I had done everything possible to try to convince them that a Police Certificate was not the appropriate document.
-edit-
I should also make clear that this happened almost three years ago, so the situation may or may not have changed.  If anybody has more up to date information (that you are certain is actually true), I would be very interested in how you fared and your experiences might be very helpful to anybody who comes across this thread - there is hardly any useful information available about these matters.

Potential-Monke

As circular flexing said above, potential employers should be doing the vetting. What's to stop me saying i'll get my own vetting and create a document that looks official and use that, i could have anything on, or removed from, it. By making the employer get it, the document goes straight from the Gardaí to the employer, no middleman and way less potential for fraudulent documents to be produced by the applicant.

Also, the employer has to be registered with AGS to get the vetting, as not just any company can do it for similar reasons. It's all about data protection and fraud avoidance.

kosomoko

Do you know if the Gardaí actually have any system in place to allow a foreign employer to request that information?  As far as I am aware, they do not.
Garda vetting is clearly not applicable - not only was I not working in Ireland, but I was not even doing "Relevant work", as it is defined with respect to Garda vetting.
I think that it would place a disproportionate administrative burden on an employer in a foreign country to ask that they register with the Gardaí (if this is even possible, which I doubt) and also that they find out how to do the equivalent process with every police force in the entire world.  In the UK, it is not difficult to obtain a document saying that you have no criminal record - it is perfectly natural for a UK employer to suppose that the same is true in Ireland.

I can see why prevening fraud might be the motivation for having the employer ask for the information directly, but I don't agree that there is actually a major risk in having the employee get it themselves.  The employer could simply call the issuing authority to find out if the document is real if they have any concerns.  This is certainly preferable to having no system whatsoever in place!

Potential-Monke

You're forgetting this is AGS. If there's an awkward and hoop-jumping way of doing things, that's probably the way it's done...

mel.b

Does anyone have any updates on this, or the best way to go about it. I have just been offered a job in Australia and will need proof of no convictions etc. I rang the e-vetting unit as I thought my employer in Australia could request to register as a relevant organisation (will be working with children in Australia, so relevant), however I was advised to complete the Data Protection Access Request form. How have people got on who have submitted this to their employer - did they accept it in the end?

mikemac2

Went through this recently looking for a list of convictions (if any) for an employer abroad

The Garda on the Blanchardstown public desk got me to complete a form and include a photocopy of my passport. It would then go to the district office. Well that was completely the wrong procedure. The email I got from district office told me the below:

You have to complete form F20 and sent €6.35
https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/Online-Services/Garda-Vetting-unit/F20-Data-Protection-Access-Request-Form-2018.pdf

It goes to Enniscorthy. They have 40 days to reply

jasonhptan

Hi guys,

I wonder if there are any further updates regarding this. I recently have been offered a job and require the police certificate. I have submitted a request to the local superintendent and was returned with a reply that they do not give out these certificates for UK or EU and referred to complete the F20 form. Any latest updates regarding this? Thanks