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Proof of no convictions in Ireland

  • 15-05-2014 5:18pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15


    Hello everyone,

    I moved to the UK from Ireland about a year ago and have been offered a job that requires a level of security clearance. To get this, I need proof that I have no convictions in Ireland. All I need is some official looking document from the Gardaí that says who I am and states that I have no convictions - should be simple, right?

    Apparently it's not... I wrote to the Superintendent at the Garda station near where I used to live to ask for a Police Certificate, he returned my documents and informed me that they only issue these for visa purposes and won't give me one in this case. He also directed me to the Garda Vetting Unit in Tipperary.

    I contacted them, they told me to send them a Data Protection form along with €6.35. I did this; the letter they sent back to me is pathetically vague, and it begins with "This document should not be construed as Proof of No Convictions...", so obviously it is worthless.

    Garda Vetting does not apply here since I am not in Ireland, so how do people deal with this situation?

    I have looked around the internet and found a lot of people getting very angry with the same problem, but no good solutions. This seems like a pretty simple thing and I'm sure it comes up a lot, so what can I do?

    Thanks for any help.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    I'd imagine the Garda Vetting is the one you need. I believe the disclaimer is in case you have used false information. It's basically saying that the person holding the form and the person described in the form may not be the same person.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    As I mentioned, Garda Vetting is not applicable as I am in the UK, not Ireland. Also, if I am not mistaken, how that works is that one's employer applies for it, rather than the individual employee, so this is not what I need.

    I think you're right about the reason for the disclaimer, and that is precisely the reason why it is of no use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    You could submit a data protection request for all convictions under your name with your previous addresses as listed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    That's exactly what I did, I gave them every address where I've ever lived.

    However, I'm sure this letter is just a standard thing that they send to everyone. I can't just ask them to not put that disclaimer on there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    kosomoko wrote: »
    That's exactly what I did, I gave them every address where I've ever lived.

    However, I'm sure this letter is just a standard thing that they send to everyone. I can't just ask them to not put that disclaimer on there.

    I mean this one

    http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Data%20Protection%20F20%20-%20Nov%2012.pdf


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    Yes, that's the one I sent them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,839 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Just hire a company to do it for u. Give them all ur addresses over last five years


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    What use would that be? My prospective employer needs confirmation from the Gardaí that I don't have a record. How would a private company even be able to access that information anyway?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    kosomoko wrote: »
    Yes, that's the one I sent them.

    Sorry, I completely misread your OP. According to the Garda site the police cert is also issued for establishing business in other EU states so I would think it should be covered.

    http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?Page=1548


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    Sorry, I completely misread your OP. According to the Garda site the police cert is also issued for establishing business in other EU states so I would think it should be covered.

    That page says starting a business, not taking up employment. I have already asked for a police certificate and explained my precise circumstances, and the superintendent was pretty clear in his response that they do not issue police certificates for this purpose.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,916 ✭✭✭Grab All Association


    Slight problem with the Data Protection Access Request route

    Please Note:
    1. Request in writing should be made and signed by the applicant in person.
    2. A disclosure of personal data under the Data Protection Act 1988/2003 should not be
    construed as Garda Vetting, Police Certificate, Garda Reference or Security Clearance.

    3. Within the terms of the Data Protection Act 1988/2003, An Garda Siochana will respond
    to your request for personal data within 40 days.
    4. Requests should be submitted to: Data Protection Processing Unit, Garda Criminal
    Records Office, Racecourse Road, Thurles, Co. Tipperary.


    Police Certificate should be sufficient


  • Registered Users Posts: 13 Euthro


    I was in a similar position for an employer in the us, I said I needed it for visa purposes and had my friend pick it at the local station and email it on to me. All the form said was no criminal record on Gardai headed paper and a gardai stamp. Did the job for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    Yes... I don't think the data protection route is going anywhere.

    I agree that a police certificate would be perfect, but as we have discussed... they won't give me one.

    Here is an extract from the response I got:

    Reference to your application for a Police Certificate. We regret to inform you that we do not issue police certificates of character to people who reside within the European Union. We issue certificates if they are required for a visa for a country outside of the European Union. We would also inform you that we do not issue Garda Clearance Certificates for Employment purposes and would refer you to the Garda Vetting Office, Racecourse Road, Thurles, Co. Tipperary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    I was in a similar position for an employer in the us, I said I needed it for visa purposes and had my friend pick it at the local station and email it on to me. All the form said was no criminal record on Gardai headed paper and a gardai stamp. Did the job for me.

    I would like to avoid lying to them, come on... I should not have to lie to get such a basic thing done, there must be a better way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭macscoob


    Simple tell them you want it for a visa???????? No


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    I'd call the district office and ask them what you are supposed to do and point them towards the Garda website link I showed you. Tell them Garda vetting is not appropriate as you are not an employer and your emplyment is outside the state. You might need to try a few times until you get speaking to someone with intelligence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    I'll make a few calls tomorrow. I also thought of calling the Irish embassy to see if they have anything useful to say.

    If I find out anything worthwhile, I'll post it here.

    PS - I was going to post a redacted version of the letter they sent me as a result of my data protection request, but the site apparently doesn't trust me with attachments because I am a new user.


  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭Inconspicuous


    kosomoko wrote: »
    I'll make a few calls tomorrow. I also thought of calling the Irish embassy to see if they have anything useful to say.

    If I find out anything worthwhile, I'll post it here.

    PS - I was going to post a redacted version of the letter they sent me as a result of my data protection request, but the site apparently doesn't trust me with attachments because I am a new user.

    I've generally found AGS as an organisation unwilling to help in situations like these as they don't seem to understand that in practically all other countries there is officially recognised and standarised security clearance levels used by government departments and that private organisations carrying out work for government depts. must have their staff vetted to a particular security level. As this situation does not happen here (or in very rare circumstances), they are unwilling to recognise the need for this type of vetting service.

    One route you could try that may be acceptable to your employer is submitting a data protection request to the Irish Courts Service. They have a record of all cases from District to Supreme court level and should be able to conduct a search to see if there are any convictions registered against you.

    Apparantly I'm too new of a user to post links, but a quick google will turn up their data protection policy which will show you the data they keep and how you can access it.

    Failing that, your best option may just be to say it's for a visa application as has been suggested earlier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    Thank you for the suggestion about the courts service. However, I think it's unlikely that their response will be any more useful than the one from the Garda vetting office.

    I spoke to the person who handles Police certificates at my former local Garda station yesterday. She informed me that she would discuss it with her superior and get back to me. After a few days when she inevitably doesn't get back to me, I will call again.

    I'm also waiting for advice on the situation from my prospective employer.

    I did not expect any of this to be a speedy process.

    What worries me about the option of lying and saying I need it for a visa (aside from the act of lying) is the fact that at some stage, somebody will probably get in touch with whoever signed off on the certificate to ensure that it is legitimate. It could then potentially emerge that I had lied and I would prefer for that situation not to arise.

    ---

    For completeness, when I called the Garda vetting office again, they were laughably unhelpful. The Irish embassy understood the issue, but were unable to do anything other than tell me that as far as they know, the Garda vetting office is meant to take care of this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,752 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    kosomoko wrote: »
    For completeness, when I called the Garda vetting office again, they were laughably unhelpful. The Irish embassy understood the issue, but were unable to do anything other than tell me that as far as they know, the Garda vetting office is meant to take care of this.

    Hmm, I wonder if it's time to get the Ombudsman involved.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    I think that would be a bit severe. I'm not aiming to take up some campaign against them, I just want to get this finished.

    It's not that they were insulting. It was that their attitude was "Sorry, I realise this is bad, but we can't do anything."


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭iceage


    If your prospective new Employer requires it, they will request it directly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    Request it directly from whom? The Gardaí? They have not, they asked me.

    I was also required to get a certificate from an organisation called Disclosure Scotland as proof that I do not have any UK convictions. Again, they asked me to get it. This appears to be how things are done in the UK (in the particular industry with which I am involved, at least; I have seen the same from other companies), I suppose they anticipated that a similar system would operate in Ireland and made the very reasonable assumption that it would not be difficult for me to obtain a document from the Gardaí that simply states that I have never been convicted of a crime.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15 kosomoko


    I have finally managed to reach an understanding with the staff at my former local Garda station; they have agreed to issue a Police Certificate and I did not need to make some phony visa application.

    So to summarise this for anyone else in the same situation who comes across this thread in the future, here is what you need to do...

    Contact your local Garda station by post or by email. You will need to give them the following:

    1 - Your name and date of birth.
    2 - A list of every address where you have ever lived and the dates when you lived there.
    3 - A copy of your passport and birth certificate. They will accept scans sent via email, but they must be certified copies i.e. they must be stamped at a police station (this can be a foreign police station) to verify that the copy is accurate.
    4 - The reason why you require the Police Certificate.

    They may be reluctant to cooperate and will probably try to send you to the Garda vetting office. The letter that the Garda vetting office will send you is of no use, make sure that you explain this very carefully. Tell them that the letter the Garda vetting office sends starts off with the words "This document should not be construed as Proof of No Convictionsm a Police Certificate, a Garda Reference or Garda Vetting." and that it is therefore of no use to you as proof of no convictions is exactly what you require.

    In my case, this was sufficient for them to agree to issue a Police Certificate.

    Thank you everyone for your replies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,763 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Just want to add my bit there kosomoko. What was done for you will not be done for everyone. You were lucky to find someone willing to do that for you, but i will guarantee 100% that this will not be done for all. What you were looking for, proof of no convictions, can be done. But, the process is different in Ireland. Your prospective employer makes the request on your behalf. That is the only way it will be done. Every day people come in looking for Police Certificates, or Proof of No Convictions, and every day i tell them the same thing:

    - Local Stations issue Police Certificates for Visa Applications only
    - Central Vetting Unit complete Data Protection Requests for individuals
    - Central Vetting Unit complete Police Certificates for employers

    If your prospective employer is not willing to make the request on your behalf, then the Data Protection Request has to do them, as there should have been/is no other way to get it. You were lucky.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    The equivalent certificate from France can be got in under 3 days and is done online. Submit the request, provide a photocopy of your passport and it's in Ireland within 3 days.

    Pity the Irish system can't be the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭discus


    Its such a nuisance. I had to get one of these a while ago. I've met s few irish lads who were in limbo in the uk waiting for jobs, all because they couldnt get a certificate of character from ireland. Jesus wept, its such a simple thing to do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 glacon


    Hi Kosomoko,
    Did you solve your problem? I'm exactly in the same situation. I need a proof of no conviction, I got the same response from the Gadrai and got the useless certificate from the Data Protection Processing Unit. Would be grateful for help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Is it for an official government security clearance? - I went through the process a couple of times for jobs in the UK and it was handled through the UK, I just gave all my previous addresses etc and was last I had to do, they contacted AGS etc.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭easygoing1982


    Just want to add my bit there kosomoko. What was done for you will not be done for everyone. You were lucky to find someone willing to do that for you, but i will guarantee 100% that this will not be done for all. What you were looking for, proof of no convictions, can be done. But, the process is different in Ireland. Your prospective employer makes the request on your behalf. That is the only way it will be done. Every day people come in looking for Police Certificates, or Proof of No Convictions, and every day i tell them the same thing:

    - Local Stations issue Police Certificates for Visa Applications only
    - Central Vetting Unit complete Data Protection Requests for individuals
    - Central Vetting Unit complete Police Certificates for employers

    If your prospective employer is not willing to make the request on your behalf, then the Data Protection Request has to do them, as there should have been/is no other way to get it. You were lucky.

    Is this just be unhelpful. How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal. Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone.


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