Review of medical cards outsourced to German company.

SafeSurfer

Arcaro finance have been engaged by the HSE to perform reviews of medical cards as it seeks to make savings in the health budget. A HSE worker has revealed that staff are " barely trained with no background in social care, do not work for the HSE, have no Garda clearance and are on minimum wage".

The outsourcing and inexperience of staff has been blamed on one mother being asked if her son still had Down's syndrome.

The revelations came during a motion calling on the government to reverse cuts to discretionary medical cards. The motion was defeated by the government majority.

drdeadlift

Im glad i dont need a medical card...touch wood.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

Silence!

dreamers75

Why did an irish company lose the tender for this?

Tail Docker

dreamers75 wrote: »

Why did an irish company lose the tender for this?

EU tender rules blah blah


- tldr, because we(i.e the state) think foreign companies are better at everything, even though they usually aren't.

Toots

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Arcaro finance have been engaged by the HSE to perform reviews of medical cards as it seeks to make savings in the health budget. A HSE worker has revealed that staff are " barely trained with no background in social care, do not work for the HSE, have no Garda clearance and are on minimum wage".

The outsourcing and inexperience of staff has been blamed on one mother being asked if her son still had Down's syndrome.

The revelations came during a motion calling on the government to reverse cuts to discretionary medical cards. The motion was defeated by the government majority.

That's nothing new I'm afraid. My little sister has Down Syndrome and every couple of years they send out a massive questionnaire for my mum to fill in about her disability so they can re-assess her medical card. Last time it happened my mum flipped the lid and rang the HSE to ask why they keep sending out the form cos it's not like my sister is going to wake up one morning and magically not have Down Syndrome anymore!

You'd think with disabilities like that they wouldn't bother sending out the review forms, especially when you think of the cost of sending the forms, plus the cost of man-hours to process them, and field the angry phone calls from frustrated card holders.

Specialun

Ze germans take all our fun

Banjo String

Quite apt news on the day that is in it.

Tonight, Fine Gael and Labour Voted against a SF motion to restore Medical cards to the very sick, the terminally ill, and people (including small children) With Disabilities and life limiting conditions. 

Sickening where their priorities are. They need sent a clear message on Fri week.

dreamers75

Tail Docker wrote: »

EU tender rules blah blah


- tldr, because we(i.e the state) think foreign companies are better at everything, even though they usually aren't.

No they are not and they were not cheaper either.

HSE tendering almost every part of everything they do at the moment. have split themselves into 3 uhh north middle and south is the best way of saying it.

German company didnt win that tender as it was never tendered, it was simply outsourced without tendering.

My job in for all 3 and found out a part was sent off to germany without tender.

future tribunal

Ten of Swords

The Arvato european hub is in Dublin, they are owned by the Bertelsmann Media group.

HSE Tender

fullaljackeen

Ten of Swords wrote: »

The Avarto european hub is in Dublin, they are owned by the Bertelsmann Media group.

They tax dodgers too then?

dreamers75

Arvato are a contractor for MSFT in the licence division of MSFT products.

/they get the money

SafeSurfer

Personally I would find the new onerous taxes and charges on my home and water etc a little more palatable if I felt that at least the most vulnerable of my fellow citizens were being protected. But I really do find it disgusting and cynical for medical cover to be withdrawn from the old and the sick and given to the young and the healthy under 6s.

fullaljackeen

dreamers75 wrote: »

Arvato are a contractor for MSFT in the licence division of MSFT products.

/they get the money

MSFT? Who are MSFT?

Doom

That explains why it took 11 days for a letter to reach me looking for extra info...

Stheno

dreamers75 wrote: »

No they are not and they were not cheaper either.

HSE tendering almost every part of everything they do at the moment. have split themselves into 3 uhh north middle and south is the best way of saying it.

German company didnt win that tender as it was never tendered, it was simply outsourced without tendering.

My job in for all 3 and found out a part was sent off to germany without tender.

future tribunal

What about the link in the post after yours? Is it possible you missed seeing the tender?

steveone

Why are the hse outsourcing sensitive work in the first place? Do they not need the cardholders permission to reveal sensitive information to a third party?

Stheno

steveone wrote: »

Why are the hse outsourcing sensitive work in the first place? Do they not need the cardholders permission to reveal sensitive information to a third party?

No as long as they make sure they fulfil their obligations under the data protection act

Smidge

Stheno wrote: »

No as long as they make sure they fulfil their obligations under the data protection act

I personally wouldn't have a great amount of faith in the DPA anymore.

SafeSurfer

Stheno wrote: »

No as long as they make sure they fulfil their obligations under the data protection act

Someone from a financial institution reviewing how many adult nappies your disabled mother gets to use per day? Lovely.

Smidge

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Someone from a financial institution reviewing how many adult nappies your disabled mother gets to use per day? Lovely.

And not only that but distance breeds well........distance.
Someone in Germany may not have any compassion to a situation so far away. It will be business. I personally think its a very clever ploy by our government to take the "heat" off them so that the dirty can be done and leave them with clean hands. "It wasn't us who took away a MC from a dying child, it was Hans"
And also, helluva lot of information available through the DPA.
Would a foreign company be bound by the DPA that has no teeth here?
Highly doubt it

Stheno

Smidge wrote: »

Would a foreign company be bound by the DPA that has no teeth here?
Highly doubt it

They can be contractually obliged to do so, I've worked in procurement where we looked to outsource and made it a condition of contracts that the supplier was a confirmed data processor

Smidge

Stheno wrote: »

They can be contractually obliged to do so, I've worked in procurement where we looked to outsource and made it a condition of contracts that the supplier was a confirmed data processor

So if someones information is leaked/abused, you can sue the German company?

Stheno

Smidge wrote: »

So if someones information is leaked/abused, you can sue the German company?

It's slightly more complicated than that, you sue the HSE as they are the data owners and have failed in meeting DPA requirements as a result of outsourcing.

Redsquigy

My disabled son got a form last week to review his medical card. On it it says "have your circumstances changed since your last review". I rang them and told them that unfortunately he has had no miracle over the last 9 years. He is still paralyzed from the neck down and until some medical miracle happens he will always be like that. The answer I got was "you still have to fill it in, we are reviewing everybody's medical card even mine". :eek:

Stheno

Redsquigy wrote: »

"you still have to fill it in, we are reviewing everybody's medical card even mine". :eek:

Can't be german then.

There seems to be a flaw in the system that it doesn't differentiate between permanent and non permanent conditions, and that's a sad reflection on the IT behind it.

sdanseo

Smidge wrote: »

So if someones information is leaked/abused, you can sue the German company?

No, you'd sue the HSE. Of course it doesn't have any money, so good luck with that.

It's good that the cards are being reviewed. There's no need for some people who have them to be issued with them, and there's plenty of people who would actually benefit from them who aren't eligible.

Each and every application for a card should be means tested individually. Employ a couple of actuaries to do this rather than basing it on the frankly farcical situation of basing it solely on a weekly income limit which takes no note at all of the person's ability to pay for medical expenses, other than a generic "allowance for reasonable rent/childcare expenses".

Smidge

Stheno wrote: »

It's slightly more complicated than that, you sue the HSE as they are the data owners and have failed in meeting DPA requirements as a result of outsourcing.

Well that sounds like it would work out fine so as we all know how easy that is.
So for a person with say a child in the Laura lynn who doesn't already have more than enough of their fair share of stress and hardship and there is a leak from the German company, they will have to take on the very people(HSE) who were deemed unable to carry the task of assessing the situation in the first place.
Like I said, should be grand.

sdanseo

Just spotted this on the eligibility requirements:

Single Person Aged 70 or over €600.00 Over €600.00 not
exceeding €700.00
Married Couple Aged 70 or over €1200.00 Over €1,200.00 not
exceeding €1,400.00

So a couple aged 71, who earn a combined €4,799 a month (equivalent to a gross combined salary of almost SIXTY GRAND) with let's be honest feck all expenditure or outgoings, no mortgage, no childcare costs, almost definitely private health insurance, are entitled to a medical card.

And we wonder where the bottom of this pit of money has gone? Reckless.

JerCotter7

Whats a discretionary medical card? How is it different to a normal one?

Tail Docker

Specialun wrote: »

Ze germans take all our fun

My ma gets a small state pension - literally under 30 a week from the Irish state, some from the germans- 40 ish -(old lad worked there) and the bulk from the UK Govt.

I can happily report that the UK Govt are nice, decent people. The others are a shower of cnuts.

SEPT 23 1989

Take medical cards off really sick people and give them to healthy under 6's:rolleyes::mad:

Tail Docker

dreamers75 wrote: »

No they are not and they were not cheaper either.

HSE tendering almost every part of everything they do at the moment. have split themselves into 3 uhh north middle and south is the best way of saying it.

German company didnt win that tender as it was never tendered, it was simply outsourced without tendering.

My job in for all 3 and found out a part was sent off to germany without tender.

future tribunal

So, what will the HSE be doing? Slashing middle management manpower? Cutting costs left right and center? Saving a fortune? Or still pi55ing it all up a wall while delivering very little?

bumper234

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Take medical cards off really sick people and give them to healthy under 6's:rolleyes::mad:

Under 6's will not be getting a medical card though so what's your point?

bumper234

Banjo String wrote: »

Quite apt news on the day that is in it.

Tonight, Fine Gael and Labour Voted against a SF motion to restore Medical cards to the very sick, the terminally ill, and people (including small children) With Disabilities and life limiting conditions. 

Sickening where their priorities are. They need sent a clear message on Fri week.

Are you still trying to pedal this sensationalist bull****?
:rolleyes:

Gatling

Consider 50% of the population is already covered by medical cards theres a a lot to complain against ,
A SF popularity stunt failed

suicide_circus

bumper234 wrote: »

Under 6's will not be getting a medical card though so what's your point?

Well, free gp care, so money that once went to seriously sick people via medical cards is now diverted to the under 6's no matter how healthy they are or how wealthy their parents are. Its crass vote buying at its worst.

Uriel.

Redsquigy wrote: »

My disabled son got a form last week to review his medical card. On it it says "have your circumstances changed since your last review". I rang them and told them that unfortunately he has had no miracle over the last 9 years. He is still paralyzed from the neck down and until some medical miracle happens he will always be like that. The answer I got was "you still have to fill it in, we are reviewing everybody's medical card even mine". :eek:

Was the question just about his medical circumstances? Or did it hint at broader circumstances? What if a rich aunt left your son 30 million euro since he received his medical card?

I don't see any problem in periodic reviews and asking people to update their circumstances. It's called oversight. Obviously sensitivity is an important issue as to how it's done, but Jebus we complain when there's no oversight and then complain when there is.

I don't see the big uproar about somebody receiving a free/subsidised service being asked to provide details of their circumstances every now and again.

mickydoomsux

Uriel. wrote: »

... but Jebus we complain when there's no oversight and then complain when there is.

"Oversight for everyone except me!

I'm "entitled" to it!"

Uriel.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

"Oversight for everyone except me!

I'm "entitled" to it!"

Damn right

Uriel.

tmc86 wrote: »

?

tmc86

Uriel. wrote: »

?

Wrong thread!

SpaceTime

While I'm the last person to defend the HSE, it's also possible that they've no database at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if they'd no notion of why people had the cards and effectively are now asking people to reapply to gather that information.

Some of these public bodies had spectacularly chaotic paper-based systems that evolved organically rather than being designed.

The medical cards had been processed very locally for a long time so, I'm guessing they've a total mess of local databases.

It seems to me that they're working blind.

They could do it a bit more tactfully though!

bumper234

suicide_circus wrote: »

Well, free gp care, so money that once went to seriously sick people via medical cards is now diverted to the under 6's no matter how healthy they are or how wealthy their parents are. Its crass vote buying at its worst.

The people who will benefit mostly from this will be working class people who have to shell out €50 a pop everytime they have to take a sick child to the doctor. That's all it covers, the doctors visit....not the prescription....not the medicine....just the visit.

The so called "poorest in society" will still have their medical cards and they will still receive their free medical care. Means testing the medical card is the best way to ensure that the system is not abused. FWIW i also believe that the system is flawed and of course their are people in society who should never have a medical card taken away but the truth of the matter is there are many who don't need a medical card and these need to be weeded out.

Banjo String

bumper234 wrote: »

Are you still trying to pedal this sensationalist bull****?
:rolleyes:

They didn't vote it down

Source?

Daith

Uriel. wrote: »

I don't see any problem in periodic reviews and asking people to update their circumstances. It's called oversight. Obviously sensitivity is an important issue as to how it's done, but Jebus we complain when there's no oversight and then complain when there is.

I'd agree but surely there can be room for people with permanent medical conditions? Perhaps not a frequent as others for example?

bumper234

Daith wrote: »

I'd agree but surely there can be room for people with permanent medical conditions? Perhaps not a frequent as others for example?

So how frequently? Every year? 5 years? 10 Years?

Uriel.

Daith wrote: »

I'd agree but surely there can be room for people with permanent medical conditions? Perhaps not a frequent as others for example?

How often are people reviewed?

SafeSurfer

mickydoomsux wrote: »

"Oversight for everyone except me!

I'm "entitled" to it!"

Uriel. wrote: »

Was the question just about his medical circumstances? Or did it hint at broader circumstances? What if a rich aunt left your son 30 million euro since he received his medical card?

I don't see any problem in periodic reviews and asking people to update their circumstances. It's called oversight. Obviously sensitivity is an important issue as to how it's done, but Jebus we complain when there's no oversight and then complain when there is.

I don't see the big uproar about somebody receiving a free/subsidised service being asked to provide details of their circumstances every now and again.

A 30 million euro legacy from a rich aunt? you really are clutching at straws. If you believe so strongly in oversight for a free/subsidised service how do you defend free GP care for under 6s with no oversight?

SpaceTime

We need to figure out why the Irish health system is getting such bad value for money compared to other EU systems though.

I've yet to see a comprehensive report on it which makes me think that there are vested interests that don't want to be questioned.

When you combine public funding and insurance funding, it's a fairly well financially resourced system, yet the service levels are often very poor.

I get the impression that the government cuts a budget and the services create a PR crisis by cutting services and putting front line staff under pressure rather than reorganising how things are done to reduce costs.

I'm not sure if that's just because it's a huge bureaucracy or if it's a way of creating a situation where the state can't control the budget.

bumper234

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A 30 million euro legacy from a rich aunt? you really are clutching at straws. If you believe so strongly in oversight for a free/subsidised service how do you defend free GP care for under 6s with no oversight?

Try taking a 7 year old child to the GP and getting free child care when this comes in.