Should the Dole be proportional to how much tax you have paid?

D1stant

I lost my job in 2012 after 15 years. It was a high paying job which I loved, but sh1t happens.

Over those 15 years I had paid over 500k in income tax yet I got exactly the same as anyone else on Jobseekers, whether they had ever worked or contributed a penny.

Is that fair?

In France for example if that were to happen to me I would be paid a higher jobseekers on a sliding scale over 2 years as I would be a nett contributor to the system.

This is a retrospective question as I am now working. But just wanted peoples views on this

RayM

Why stop at the dole? Is it fair that people who drive expensive cars (and therefore pay higher VRT and motor tax) aren't given priority over everybody else at traffic lights?

Or would that be fucking ludicrous?

SafeSurfer

No.

beazee

You should have the rainy day fund established which, after 15yrs in employment and €0.5 mil in taxes alone, should be enough to sustain your level of living.

Sir Arthur Daley

You will get a job soon enough op, celtic tiger 2.0 is kicking off next week.

Idiopath

I think it's a good idea, my father worked very hard for over 30years and certainly paid his fair share of tax. He found himself out of work for about a little over a year and received the same as a fella who'd never paid a penny into the country.
Hard work should be remembered in hard times.
People who refuse to work should not be endlessly compensated by those of us who do.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I think it should be but its the type of system you need to implement when unemployment is lower and we aren't running a deficit.

There's something wrong with a system where someone who has worked 15 years can only claim the same amount as someone who has spent the past 15 years not working, and I would suspect the person who hasn't worked for the previous 15 years would probably be on higher money, whether because of medical card or housing or whatever.

B.A._Baracus

500 grand?
How in the hell? That means you would have been paying 35 grand a year in tax. if that was the case you would be a millionaire. the dole would be nothing to you.


Your name wouldn't be jack a' nory by any chance? :pac:

Celly Smunt

Idiopath wrote: »

I think it's a good idea, my father worked very hard for over 30years and certainly paid his fair share of tax. He found himself out of work for about a little over a year and received the same as a fella who'd never paid a penny into the country.
Hard work should be remembered in hard times.
People who refuse to work should not be endlessly compensated by those of us who do.

It is remembered,it's called a pension.

darkpagandeath

Idiopath wrote: »

I think it's a good idea, my father worked very hard for over 30years and certainly paid his fair share of tax. He found himself out of work for about a little over a year and received the same as a fella who'd never paid a penny into the country.
Hard work should be remembered in hard times.
People who refuse to work should not be endlessly compensated by those of us who do.

Any figures to backup these wild claims ? How many people are refusing to work ?

RayM

Idiopath wrote: »

I think it's a good idea, my father worked very hard for over 30years and certainly paid his fair share of tax.

But should your father, who worked very hard for over 30 years, receive less in Jobseekers Allowance than someone who worked less hard for around 10 or 20 years, but in a much higher paying job (and therefore contributed more in taxes)? Because that, unless I'm mistaken, seems to be what the OP is suggesting.

Stheno

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

500 grand?
How in the hell? That means you would have been paying 35 grand a year in tax. if that was the case you would be a millionaire. the dole would be nothing to you.


Your name wouldn't be jack a' nory by any chance? :pac:

Someone on approx 85-90k pays 35 grand a year plus in taxes (paye/usc/prsi) as a paye worker.

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/Results.aspx Almost 34 grand for an 85k salary

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/Results.aspx Almost 36 grand for a 90k salary

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/Results.aspx almost 42 grand for a 100k salary

Makes a mockery of people on here complaining about high earners not paying taxes

For all three, that's a marginal rate of approx 40% of total income going in taxes

Celly Smunt

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Any figures to backup these wild claims ? How many people are refusing to work ?

There are hundreds of thousands of them! they're turning down jobs requiring java developers with 10 years experience every day!

How dare they!

Tail Docker

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

500 grand?
How in the hell? That means you would have been paying 35 grand a year in tax. if that was the case you would be a millionaire. the dole would be nothing to you.


Your name wouldn't be jack a' nory by any chance? :pac:

Here's the news, people pay high taxes, and they live, which eats up their salary. If i stop working, i get zero, the lad who paid nothing gets the dole. The OP is suggesting a fair system, i.e no chance of it happening in Ireland.

D1stant

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

500 grand?
How in the hell? That means you would have been paying 35 grand a year in tax. if that was the case you would be a millionaire. the dole would be nothing to you.


Your name wouldn't be jack a' nory by any chance? :pac:

Wow that took 8 posts.

Toots

I think it depends. You might have someone who doesn't earn a whole lot but works hard and pays their taxes for 20 years then gets laid off, and another person who works equally hard but happened to be earning a lot more money and then gets laid off. I don't think one should get more than the other. That being said, the dole shouldn't just be paid indefinitely to anyone and everyone.

dreamers75

You need "stamps" to get the dole so yes it should be proportionate to wage/tax rsi you paid.

Why have stamps if everyone gets the same? 18 year old with no intentions of getting a job gets the same as someone who had a job for 15 years paying X amount.

yes it should be that way.

Hoster

Any other countries who have successfully implemented this strategy?

scuba8

It could be argued that at the height of the Celtic tiger era, when about 500,000 people had come into the country to take up employment we still had about 150,000 people in receipt of unemployment benefit. One could say that they really did not want to work.
I am not agreeing with the OP but there are a lot of people who do not want to work.

theKillerBite

Toots* wrote: »

I think it depends. You might have someone who doesn't earn a whole lot but works hard and pays their taxes for 20 years then gets laid off, and another person who works equally hard but happened to be earning a lot more money and then gets laid off. I don't think one should get more than the other. That being said, the dole shouldn't just be paid indefinitely to anyone and everyone.

Hmmm I'm not so sure. The dole provides a safety net to everyone in the country, without the country would experience rioting, robberies, and generally descend into a hellhole like Eygpt when the economy turns for the worst.

darkpagandeath

dreamers75 wrote: »

You need "stamps" to get the dole so yes it should be proportionate to wage/tax rsi you paid.

Why have stamps if everyone gets the same? 18 year old with no intentions of getting a job gets the same as someone who had a job for 15 years paying X amount.

yes it should be that way.

Any figures for these people ? They sound made up to me.

Capt'n Midnight

You would have been able to claim back some income tax for the bit of the year you didn't work.

And unlike someone on minimum wage you could have set things like bin charges, pensions , mortgage relief, bike to work etc. against higher rate tax.

D1stant

Toots* wrote: »

I think it depends. You might have someone who doesn't earn a whole lot but works hard and pays their taxes for 20 years then gets laid off, and another person who works equally hard but happened to be earning a lot more money and then gets laid off. I don't think one should get more than the other. That being said, the dole shouldn't just be paid indefinitely to anyone and everyone.

Who is the judge of how hard you have worked? That is not something that can be measured by the system. They can measure how much tax you have contributed to the country

darkpagandeath

scuba8 wrote: »

It could be argued that at the height of the Celtic tiger era, when about 500,000 people had come into the country to take up employment we still had about 150,000 people in receipt of unemployment benefit. One could say that they really did not want to work.

Is there not a section of Irish society that has 80% of them on the dole ? Would that not skew the figures a tad.

hfallada

It should be like German speaking countries. You get 70% of your previous salary and then after 6 months its slowly reduced. Meaning people have time to find a decent job again. But when someone who has never worked a day in their life gets the same pension as a person who works for their entire life. You know are welfare system is ****ed up.

But I feel sorry for the self-employed who pay PRSI, but arent entitled to benefits when work dries up. There is no incentive to work in this country and I told a whack job socialist running in the local election that. He was trying to tell the bottom 20% of irish society pay more tax than the top 10%. He didnt know what to see when I told him that Ireland has the second fairest tax system in the OECD and you can actually earn €10,300 without paying a single cent in tax

dreamers75

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Any figures for these people ? They sound made up to me.

lots of things sound made up for people for After Hours.

Call it experience.....

TeddyTedson

D1stant wrote: »

I lost my job in 2012 after 15 years. It was a high paying job which I loved, but sh1t happens.

Over those 15 years I had paid over 500k in income tax yet I got exactly the same as anyone else on Jobseekers, whether they had ever worked or contributed a penny.

Is that fair?

In France for example if that were to happen to me I would be paid a higher jobseekers on a sliding scale over 2 years as I would be a nett contributor to the system.

This is a retrospective question as I am now working. But just wanted peoples views on this

You were probably over paid.
For example I work with people who do the exact same job as me, for fewer hours however and are earning 90K a year!!!
I'm on a turd of their salary!

RayM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Is there not a section of Irish society that has 80% of them on the dole ? Would that not skew the figures a tad.

Traveller-bashing and dole-bashing. This is shaping up to be one of those threads...

Stheno

Hoster wrote: »

Any other countries who have successfully implemented this strategy?

The German Hartz iv system is quite harsh

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You would have been able to claim back some income tax for the bit of the year you didn't work.

And unlike someone on minimum wage you could have set things like bin charges, pensions , mortgage relief, bike to work etc. against higher rate tax.

No tax relief on bin charges for the past few years, mortgage relief only applies for the first seven years of a mortgage and is treated seperately from income taxes

Pension relief is restricted dependant upon age

darkpagandeath

RayM wrote: »

Traveller-bashing and dole-bashing. This is shaping up to be one of those threads...

Who's bashing ? Stating a fact is not allowed ?

relax carry on

dreamers75 wrote: »

You need "stamps" to get the dole so yes it should be proportionate to wage/tax rsi you paid.

Why have stamps if everyone gets the same? 18 year old with no intentions of getting a job gets the same as someone who had a job for 15 years paying X amount.

yes it should be that way.

Slightly off topic but why do people still refer to PRSI contributions as stamps? There haven't been any PRSI stamps since the 70's.

scuba8

RayM wrote: »

Traveller-bashing and dole-bashing. This is shaping up to be one of those threads...

You are the first person to mention travellers.

Stheno

hfallada wrote: »

He was trying to tell the bottom 20% of irish society pay more tax than the top 10%. He didnt know what to see when I told him that Ireland has the second fairest tax system in the OECD and you can actually earn €10,300 without paying a single cent in tax

Should he return, grab your laptop/tablet and give him the following link.

http://www.colly.tv/irelands-income-tax-distribution-chart/

54% of the population earn under 30k – In total they pay 3.1% of the tax.
16% of the population earn over 60k – They pay 74% of the tax.

Hoster

Stheno wrote: »

The German Hartz iv system is quite harsh

Explain for the less knowledgeable folks amongst us!

RayM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Who's bashing ? Stating a fact is not allowed ?

Traveller unemployment is a very complicated issue. Simply referring to it (or alluding to it) in what is basically yet another dole-bashing thread is likely to result in the arrival of the traveller-bashing element. Not accusing you of traveller-bashing, btw.

Stheno

Hoster wrote: »

Explain for the less knowledgeable folks amongst us!

Already been posted about above

Hoster

Stheno wrote: »

Already been posted about above

But what happens in the end if they dont find work? Are they cut off completely or do they have a good minimum?

If thats the case i wouldnt call it harsh if i was coming off 80k to 70% of that.

Stheno

Hoster wrote: »

But what happens in the end if they dont find work? Are they cut off completely or do they have a good minimum?

If thats the case i wouldnt call it harsh if i was coming off 80k to 70% of that.

Nope they go down to a minimum of approx. 380e a month iirc

CIARAN_BOYLE

Hoster wrote: »

Explain for the less knowledgeable folks amongst us!

60% of your wages for six months gradually falling to €382 a month

67% if you have kids

D1stant

RayM wrote: »

Traveller unemployment is a very complicated issue. Simply referring to it (or alluding to it) in what is basically yet another dole-bashing thread is likely to result in the arrival of the traveller-bashing element. Not accusing you of traveller-bashing, btw.

This is not a dole-bashing thread or certainly not intended to be. I am asking a legit question on how to structure payments based on previous tax contributions. Some other countries have implemented a system like this - and they do have pros and cons. Please don't oversimplify

Hoster

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

60% of your wages for six months gradually falling to €382 a month

67% if you have kids

For someone on 20k a year and not highly demanded thats very harsh alright.

Stheno

Hoster wrote: »

For someone on 20k a year and not highly demanded thats very harsh alright.

For someone on 80k it's even harsher

twowheelsonly

Absolutely 100% it should be scaled according to the taxes that you've paid previously. Originally that is what PRSI (Stamps) was intended for.

Through my work today I met an immigrant that is living here 9 years, lives in a 3 bedroom house with 2 other immigrants (RA), drives a car, has no family, has a medical card, bank cards, €190 in his wallet - and he was due to get paid today on top of that - and he has never ever worked a day in this country.

My point relating to that is that if I was self employed and had no work I'd get squat. If I was laid off tomorrow I'd get basic rate of dole and probably have to fight to have any chance of a medical card. I'm working now and would never have €190 left over from my last payday when the next one comes around so I dread to think what It'd be like if I wasn't working. Pretty much like the OP I've paid well in excess of half a million in taxes yet I'll see no personal benefit from that - ever..

Anyone that argues that a system like that is the right way to have it must be a politician.

Stheno

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Absolutely 100% it should be scaled according to the taxes that you've paid previously. Originally that is what PRSI (Stamps) was intended for.

Through my work today I met an immigrant that is living here 9 years, lives in a 3 bedroom house with 2 other immigrants (RA), drives a car, has no family, has a medical card, bank cards, €190 in his wallet - and he was due to get paid today on top of that - and he has never ever worked a day in this country.

My point relating to that is that if I was self employed and had no work I'd get squat. If I was laid off tomorrow I'd get basic rate of dole and probably have to fight to have any chance of a medical card. I'm working now and would never have €190 left over from my last payday when the next one comes around so I dread to think what It'd be like if I wasn't working. Pretty much like the OP I've paid well in excess of half a million in taxes yet I'll see no personal benefit from that - ever..

Anyone that argues that a system like that is the right way to have it must be a politician.

That's incorrect, you'd not qualify for JSB depending on your PRSI status, but you'd be means assessed for JSA

darkpagandeath

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Absolutely 100% it should be scaled according to the taxes that you've paid previously. Originally that is what PRSI (Stamps) was intended for.

Through my work today I met an immigrant that is living here 9 years, lives in a 3 bedroom house with 2 other immigrants (RA), drives a car, has no family, has a medical card, bank cards, €190 in his wallet - and he was due to get paid today on top of that - and he has never ever worked a day in this country.

My point relating to that is that if I was self employed and had no work I'd get squat. If I was laid off tomorrow I'd get basic rate of dole and probably have to fight to have any chance of a medical card. I'm working now and would never have €190 left over from my last payday when the next one comes around so I dread to think what It'd be like if I wasn't working. Pretty much like the OP I've paid well in excess of half a million in taxes yet I'll see no personal benefit from that - ever..

Anyone that argues that a system like that is the right way to have it must be a politician.

So you don't drive on the roads ? Or use the health service or any other services your tax goes to ?

padd b1975

Hoster wrote: »

Any other countries who have successfully implemented this strategy?

Someone mentioned the French system a few posts up, not sure it's entirely identical though.

Stheno

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you don't drive on the roads ? Or use the health service or any other services your tax goes to ?

Motor tax in relation to your first point, plus tax on petrol?

Second point, a few of people I know are high earners, and would rarely if ever use the public health system, they pay to go private. Most PRSI benefits like glasses and dental care have been cut to the max.

The people I know have private health and dental insurance, and pay fairly high motor tax on their cars.

RayM

D1stant wrote: »

This is not a dole-bashing thread or certainly not intended to be. I am asking a legit question on how to structure payments based on previous tax contributions. Some other countries have implemented a system like this - and they do have pros and cons. Please don't oversimplify

Sooner or later, every After Hours thread with the word 'Dole' in the title becomes a dole-bashing thread. The whole purpose of the dole is to enable people to exist when they have no other income. And despite the anecdotes about the unemployed living lives of privilege, it is merely an existence.

Yes, the dole is a pittance, and that's probably quite a culture shock to a high earner when they lose their job. And people probably feel quite embittered about the fact that they get the same as someone who has never worked. But at least the formerly highly-paid worker is far more likely to find another job a lot more quickly than the long-term unemployed person who doesn't have the same level of qualifications and employment history. So it's not all bad. You at least have that advantage over them.

KyussBishop

It's really just a tired moral argument this, which makes no sense - and it seems to be based on the myth that there are a disproportionate amount of dole-scroungers (because otherwise, why bother limiting payments in this manner?).

There isn't any proof, that dole frauds are anything more than a tiny-tiny minority of dole recipients, so that pretty much demolishes any moral argument in favour of silly proposals like this.

WilyCoyote

I know that in England years ago you had what was called "related earnings". How much you earned in your job was taken into account for a certain period of time .......... and you got paid accordingly.

Stheno

RayM wrote: »

Sooner or later, every After Hours thread with the word 'Dole' in the title becomes a dole-bashing thread. The whole purpose of the dole is to enable people to exist when they have no other income. And despite the anecdotes about the unemployed living lives of privilege, it is merely an existence.

Yes, the dole is a pittance, and that's probably quite a culture shock to a high earner when they lose their job. And people probably feel quite embittered about the fact that they get the same as someone who has never worked. But at least the formerly highly-paid worker is far more likely to find another job a lot more quickly than the long-term unemployed person who doesn't have the same level of qualifications and employment history. So it's not all bad.

Our rates of dole/social support are very high.

I remember being on the dole in 2003 for a month or so, it was €134 per week.

Now it's €188 per week.

That's a rise of 29% in a period including one of the worst recessions we have had full stop

I don't know one single working person who has achieved that level of payrise in that time