Zero tolerance policing.

Old diesel

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Go on then, I asked you to repeat your evidence that the average Gardai is competent, dedicated and diligent. For some reason you don't appear to be able to do so... almost as if the evidence never existed in the first place! Amazing coincidence!

Here, this is what evidence of Gardai not being good at their job would look like:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html
Now all you have to do is find evidence that says the opposite.

Detection and conviction are two completely different things.

And is it the average garda that's "fiddling with the stats"

Dan_Solo

Old diesel wrote: »

Detection and conviction are two completely different things.

This exposes the fact that "detection" in garda parlance can mean only that they know or have a rough idea of who committed a crime, but haven't actually gained enough evidence for a conviction.

LOL, sure I know in me heart who did it boss, isn't that close enough!

Old diesel

Dan_Solo wrote: »

LOL, sure I know in me heart who did it boss, isn't that close enough!

Well done - you just confirmed the difference between a detection and a conviction.

Old diesel

Oh look what have we got here - those incompetent gardai managed to catch raiders

http://www.herald.ie/news/fifth-burglar-arrested-after-gardai-catch-raiders-in-act-29492172.html

More raiders - still they are incompetent aren't they - the gardai I mean

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/crime-desk/pair-due-in-court-over-failed-armed-raid-on-petrol-station

This ones interesting because Gardaí were already in the area responding to reports of suspicious activity

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-hatchet-robbery-dungarvan-1462443-May2014/

Bravery awards

http://www.thejournal.ie/seven-gardai-honoured-medals-bravery-672775-Nov2012/

But they are all incompetent according to you

Dan_Solo

Unbelievable alright. Gardai doing their jobs and getting awards for doing it. Astounding.
Pity you've provided far less positive PR spin than the litany of testimonies about incompetent, brutal and negligent Gardai you can find all across boards.is. And a scatter of anecdotes don't cut it against the abysmal conviction rate. Nope, I never said all Gardai BTW, you can pretend I did but you'll fail to quote me.
Yeah, at least we all know what detection means now. It's "bump up the figures for good PR". ;-)

TheNog

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And a scatter of anecdotes don't cut it against the abysmal conviction rate. ;-)

Out of interest is there a link to abysmal conviction rate?

Dan_Solo

TheNog wrote: »

Out of interest is there a link to abysmal conviction rate?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html

bravestar

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html

It is not AGS job to convict people. It is AGS job to investigate and present all available evidence to a court.

Zambia

bravestar wrote: »

It is not AGS job to convict people. It is AGS job to investigate and present all available evidence to a court.

Now now let's not go getting to the truth of the matter when wild accusations and conjecture will do.

TheNog

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html

Check out this one from the CSO. It looks at crime detection rates from 2007-2011

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/crimejustice/2011/gardacrimestats_2011.pdf

Dan_Solo

bravestar wrote: »

It is not AGS job to convict people. It is AGS job to investigate and present all available evidence to a court.

Thanks for that, I wonder can you find me anybody who said differently? That is the stated aim of their job. How well they do it is something else.
What that Indo article says very, very clearly is that all the evidence that the Gardai manage to actually collect is seldom enough for a conviction. "shockingly low" was how they described it. Whether that is indeed all the available evidence is entirely a different matter, as the reams of ignored leads in some of the tribunals are showing us.

Dan_Solo

TheNog wrote: »

Check out this one from the CSO. It looks at crime detection rates from 2007-2011

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/crimejustice/2011/gardacrimestats_2011.pdf

Detection rates appear to rise and fall with reported crime rates.
This tells me detections are falling due to there being less crime, not due to any improvement in Garda efficiency. Indeed, you could ask why if there is less reported crime why the clean up rate wouldn't increase as the same resources can now be applied to less cases.

Dan_Solo

Zambia wrote: »

Now now let's not go getting to the truth of the matter when wild accusations and conjecture will do.

Or indeed let's not go stating what the aim of someone's job is and then pretend that is exactly what they successfully do every single time.

Dermot Illogical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Indeed, you could ask why if there is less reported crime why the clean up rate wouldn't increase as the same resources can now be applied to less cases.

Same resources? Did I miss a recruitment drive?

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

TBH I think Garda discretion is a disgrace the way it is practised in this country. Just look at the penalty points scandal. The only discretion I've ever encountered in the Gardai was whether to bother responding to or even logging your call.
Zero tolerance would be impossible here due to the laissez faire policing culture.

Dan, fromt the start you have come with a negative attitude, I've asked you for personal examples and none have been forthcoming. If you read my response to iwannahurl I advised taking a complaint to GSOC.

Now, if you don't want to do that then fine, live with that chip that you have on your shoulder. But, if you want something done and you are not happy about the service you received then complain to somebody who can do something, don't just write about it on an anonymous internet forum.

Dan_Solo

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Same resources? Did I miss a recruitment drive?

Yes, apparently you did. :cool:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/100-applicants-for-every-garda-job-offered-in-new-recruitment-drive-1.1651260

Dan_Solo

foreign wrote: »

Dan, fromt the start you have come with a negative attitude, I've asked you for personal examples and none have been forthcoming. If you read my response to iwannahurl I advised taking a complaint to GSOC.

Now, if you don't want to do that then fine, live with that chip that you have on your shoulder. But, if you want something done and you are not happy about the service you received then complain to somebody who can do something, don't just write about it on an anonymous internet forum.

Ah, "lose da hattitude". This "chip on the shoulder" line has appeared from an AGS member or apologist every single time there is any criticism of AGS. Is it in the Templemore dictionary or something. I could equally say nearly everybody else here has from the start had a AGS-can-do-no-wrong attitude. That's to be expected in this forum I guess, but you won't see it anywhere else on boards.
Why do you want my personal examples, should I have any? I have linked to stacks of examples from boards.ie members. And we now have access to some statistics that show many AGS jurisdictions have ridiculous absentee rates and overall the crime solving rate is, in the Indo's words, "shockingly low" and "massaged".
Can you remind me again what the point of complaining about AGS (if I had a complaint) would be when the complaints are essentially assessed by AGS?

Dermot Illogical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, apparently you did. :cool:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/100-applicants-for-every-garda-job-offered-in-new-recruitment-drive-1.1651260

And how many of them are doing police work at the moment?
Resources have fallen, and by quite a bit. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of AGS would know that.

Same resources? (LOL! :cool: :rolleyes: and perhaps SMH)

By the way. From the article you linked...
"The delay in the first intake will mean Garda numbers will fall well below 13,000 by the time the recruits enter the college, with numbers currently at 13,100."

flutered

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That's non-payment of court fines. As in, you get convicted in court and are given 60 days to pay a fine but don't. Are you suggesting people should be allowed ignore court fines with no consequence? Or perhaps you are afraid you might go to jail for not paying a tv licence. The people kept in there are the serious cases. Everyone else gets booted out within 24 hours.

what about the person with twenty odd convictions against the state or person who gets away with whatever, they seem to have a free hand, they pay the fine so as they can commit another crime, the other person does time because they may have not the cash to pay the fine.

Dan_Solo

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

And how many of them are doing police work at the moment?
Resources have fallen, and by quite a bit. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of AGS would know that.

Same resources? (LOL! :cool: :rolleyes: and perhaps SMH)

By the way. From the article you linked...
"The delay in the first intake will mean Garda numbers will fall well below 13,000 by the time the recruits enter the college, with numbers currently at 13,100."

You asked if you had missed a recruitment drive. I'm sorry that answer that you did doesn't suit you.
Now, do you have any historic Garda number data of that would match any of these falling reported crime statistics? Telling me there is now 13,000 means precisely zero if you want to compare resources with crime trends.

Dermot Illogical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You asked if you had missed a recruitment drive. I'm sorry that answer that you did doesn't suit you.
Now, do you have any historic Garda number data of that would match any of these falling reported crime statistics? Telling me there is now 13,000 means precisely zero if you want to compare resources with crime trends.

You've heard of google? Perhaps go look it up for yourself if you're that interested?
Then you can come back and tell everyone how the "same resources" can do whatever it is you want done. Or not.

Dan_Solo

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

You've heard of google? Perhaps go look it up for yourself if you're that interested?
Then you can come back and tell everyone how the "same resources" can do whatever it is you want done. Or not.

Is this some roundabout way of saying no such data exists? I will assume Garda manpower has remained constant then.

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah, "lose da hattitude". This "chip on the shoulder" line has appeared from an AGS member or apologist every single time there is any criticism of AGS. Is it in the Templemore dictionary or something. I could equally say nearly everybody else here has from the start had a AGS-can-do-no-wrong attitude. That's to be expected in this forum I guess, but you won't see it anywhere else on boards.
Why do you want my personal examples, should I have any? I have linked to stacks of examples from boards.ie members. And we now have access to some statistics that show many AGS jurisdictions have ridiculous absentee rates and overall the crime solving rate is, in the Indo's words, "shockingly low" and "massaged".
Can you remind me again what the point of complaining about AGS (if I had a complaint) would be when the complaints are essentially assessed by AGS?

I referred to your 'chip' due to you being shown plenty of examples of Gardaí doing their jobs in extremely difficult circumstances even putting their personal safety on the line on and off duty thereby rubbishing your claims that Gardaí ignore criminals.

I'm asking about your personal examples as you made a claim in your first post. You still choose to ignore the questions put to you instead linking to negative stories.

The Sindo and other newspapers all have agendas, if you ask most public servants what they think of the Sindo you will probably get mainly negative comments.

Finally, as for criticism of the job, Gardaí are usually the first to agree. The majority go to work to do an honest days work and are disgusted with wrong doing. They have also been calling for an independent body to be over the Garda service for years. So, it's not all bury the head in the sand.

That's all I've got for this thread, no point going in circles.

Dan_Solo

foreign wrote: »

I referred to your 'chip' due to you being shown plenty of examples of Gardaí doing their jobs in extremely difficult circumstances even putting their personal safety on the line on and off duty thereby rubbishing your claims that Gardaí ignore criminals.

I'm asking about your personal examples as you made a claim in your first post. You still choose to ignore the questions put to you instead linking to negative stories.

The Sindo and other newspapers all have agendas, if you ask most public servants what they think of the Sindo you will probably get mainly negative comments.

Finally, as for criticism of the job, Gardaí are usually the first to agree. The majority go to work to do an honest days work and are disgusted with wrong doing. They have also been calling for an independent body to be over the Garda service for years. So, it's not all bury the head in the sand.

That's all I've got for this thread, no point going in circles.

And we have at least as many examples of Garda corruption, negligence and brutality to counter your examples of Gardai doing their job properly. Plus statistics (yes, them) showing poor attendance in many areas and extremely poor actual detection rates. Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder regarding the public voicing any concerns at all about AGS?
Yes, every last individual, government agency or media outlet has an anti-AGS "agenda". Sure.
And why would my personal (if any) negative experience with AGS be of more or less value than the countless other examples available here on boards.ie could you tell me?

Dermot Illogical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Is this some roundabout way of saying no such data exists?

No. As you are having trouble understanding I'll phrase it in simpler terms.
Look it up for yourself and you will find that available resources have been reduced.
Hint: You may find it reported alongside "Smart Policing"

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I will assume Garda manpower has remained constant then.

Assume whatever you like. One more thing to be wrong about will hardly make a difference at this stage.

Dan_Solo

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

No. As you are having trouble understanding I'll phrase it in simpler terms.
Look it up for yourself and you will find that available resources have been reduced.
Hint: You may find it reported alongside "Smart Policing"



Assume whatever you like. One more thing to be wrong about will hardly make a difference at this stage.

Does this line of interrogation work with criminal suspects? "Hey, why don't you go and find evidence for me to prove you are guilty." :rolleyes:
Look, if you've got something then post it. It's not my job to do Google searches to support your points.

Dermot Illogical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Does this line of interrogation work with criminal suspects? "Hey, why don't you go and find evidence for me to prove you are guilty." :rolleyes:
Look, if you've got something then post it. It's not my job to do Google searches to support your points.

True, but you might want to try it to support your own.

Dan_Solo

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

True, but you might want to try it to support your own.

Sorry, did you miss or just deliberately ignore the data I posted on ridiculous Garda absenteeism in certain area or the "shockingly low" crime clean up rate?
Give us another positive spin anecdote there, go on.
So, you basically got nothing on falling AGS manpower? Good, now we can move on.

Little CuChulainn

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sorry, did you miss or just deliberately ignore the data I posted on ridiculous Garda absenteeism in certain area or the "shockingly low" crime clean up rate?
Give us another positive spin anecdote there, go on.
So, you basically got nothing on falling AGS manpower? Good, now we can move on.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-fear-numbers-will-drop-below-13000-266857.html

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/diminishing-garda-numbers-cause-for-concern-adams-30022412.html

A drop of 2000 overall with another 350 due to retire this year. That's a reduction of about 15% Hope that helps.

wexandproud

came across this thread today and there seems to be a serious chip on someones shoulder.
i think the guards do as best they can and with all the bad publicity they are getting lately i think the guys on the street will find it harder to show discretion. on the road over the years i have had 2 dealings with guards , shortly after speed limits changed i was caught speeding, 60 mph on a road where limit had been reduced to 80 kph , the guy gave me a bollocking and let me off .
couple of years ago was caught on phone, asked guard to use his discretion but he done me anyway . could not complain in either case they seemed like decent enough guys, actually met the phone one a few days later socially and we had a good humoured slagging match about it