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Zero tolerance policing.

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Comments

  • #102
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    bravestar wrote: »
    It is not AGS job to convict people. It is AGS job to investigate and present all available evidence to a court.
    Thanks for that, I wonder can you find me anybody who said differently? That is the stated aim of their job. How well they do it is something else.
    What that Indo article says very, very clearly is that all the evidence that the Gardai manage to actually collect is seldom enough for a conviction. "shockingly low" was how they described it. Whether that is indeed all the available evidence is entirely a different matter, as the reams of ignored leads in some of the tribunals are showing us.


  • #103
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TheNog wrote: »
    Check out this one from the CSO. It looks at crime detection rates from 2007-2011

    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/crimejustice/2011/gardacrimestats_2011.pdf
    Detection rates appear to rise and fall with reported crime rates.
    This tells me detections are falling due to there being less crime, not due to any improvement in Garda efficiency. Indeed, you could ask why if there is less reported crime why the clean up rate wouldn't increase as the same resources can now be applied to less cases.


  • #104
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Zambia wrote: »
    Now now let's not go getting to the truth of the matter when wild accusations and conjecture will do.
    Or indeed let's not go stating what the aim of someone's job is and then pretend that is exactly what they successfully do every single time.


  • #105
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Indeed, you could ask why if there is less reported crime why the clean up rate wouldn't increase as the same resources can now be applied to less cases.

    Same resources? Did I miss a recruitment drive?


  • #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    TBH I think Garda discretion is a disgrace the way it is practised in this country. Just look at the penalty points scandal. The only discretion I've ever encountered in the Gardai was whether to bother responding to or even logging your call.
    Zero tolerance would be impossible here due to the laissez faire policing culture.

    Dan, fromt the start you have come with a negative attitude, I've asked you for personal examples and none have been forthcoming. If you read my response to iwannahurl I advised taking a complaint to GSOC.

    Now, if you don't want to do that then fine, live with that chip that you have on your shoulder. But, if you want something done and you are not happy about the service you received then complain to somebody who can do something, don't just write about it on an anonymous internet forum.


  • #107
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    Same resources? Did I miss a recruitment drive?
    Yes, apparently you did. :cool:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/100-applicants-for-every-garda-job-offered-in-new-recruitment-drive-1.1651260


  • #108
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    foreign wrote: »
    Dan, fromt the start you have come with a negative attitude, I've asked you for personal examples and none have been forthcoming. If you read my response to iwannahurl I advised taking a complaint to GSOC.

    Now, if you don't want to do that then fine, live with that chip that you have on your shoulder. But, if you want something done and you are not happy about the service you received then complain to somebody who can do something, don't just write about it on an anonymous internet forum.
    Ah, "lose da hattitude". This "chip on the shoulder" line has appeared from an AGS member or apologist every single time there is any criticism of AGS. Is it in the Templemore dictionary or something. I could equally say nearly everybody else here has from the start had a AGS-can-do-no-wrong attitude. That's to be expected in this forum I guess, but you won't see it anywhere else on boards.
    Why do you want my personal examples, should I have any? I have linked to stacks of examples from boards.ie members. And we now have access to some statistics that show many AGS jurisdictions have ridiculous absentee rates and overall the crime solving rate is, in the Indo's words, "shockingly low" and "massaged".
    Can you remind me again what the point of complaining about AGS (if I had a complaint) would be when the complaints are essentially assessed by AGS?


  • #109
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yes, apparently you did. :cool:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/100-applicants-for-every-garda-job-offered-in-new-recruitment-drive-1.1651260

    And how many of them are doing police work at the moment?
    Resources have fallen, and by quite a bit. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of AGS would know that.

    Same resources? (LOL! :cool: :rolleyes: and perhaps SMH)

    By the way. From the article you linked...
    "The delay in the first intake will mean Garda numbers will fall well below 13,000 by the time the recruits enter the college, with numbers currently at 13,100."


  • #110
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭flutered


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    That's non-payment of court fines. As in, you get convicted in court and are given 60 days to pay a fine but don't. Are you suggesting people should be allowed ignore court fines with no consequence? Or perhaps you are afraid you might go to jail for not paying a tv licence. The people kept in there are the serious cases. Everyone else gets booted out within 24 hours.

    what about the person with twenty odd convictions against the state or person who gets away with whatever, they seem to have a free hand, they pay the fine so as they can commit another crime, the other person does time because they may have not the cash to pay the fine.


  • #111
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    And how many of them are doing police work at the moment?
    Resources have fallen, and by quite a bit. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of AGS would know that.

    Same resources? (LOL! :cool: :rolleyes: and perhaps SMH)

    By the way. From the article you linked...
    "The delay in the first intake will mean Garda numbers will fall well below 13,000 by the time the recruits enter the college, with numbers currently at 13,100."
    You asked if you had missed a recruitment drive. I'm sorry that answer that you did doesn't suit you.
    Now, do you have any historic Garda number data of that would match any of these falling reported crime statistics? Telling me there is now 13,000 means precisely zero if you want to compare resources with crime trends.


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  • #112
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You asked if you had missed a recruitment drive. I'm sorry that answer that you did doesn't suit you.
    Now, do you have any historic Garda number data of that would match any of these falling reported crime statistics? Telling me there is now 13,000 means precisely zero if you want to compare resources with crime trends.

    You've heard of google? Perhaps go look it up for yourself if you're that interested?
    Then you can come back and tell everyone how the "same resources" can do whatever it is you want done. Or not.


  • #113
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    You've heard of google? Perhaps go look it up for yourself if you're that interested?
    Then you can come back and tell everyone how the "same resources" can do whatever it is you want done. Or not.
    Is this some roundabout way of saying no such data exists? I will assume Garda manpower has remained constant then.


  • #114
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Ah, "lose da hattitude". This "chip on the shoulder" line has appeared from an AGS member or apologist every single time there is any criticism of AGS. Is it in the Templemore dictionary or something. I could equally say nearly everybody else here has from the start had a AGS-can-do-no-wrong attitude. That's to be expected in this forum I guess, but you won't see it anywhere else on boards.
    Why do you want my personal examples, should I have any? I have linked to stacks of examples from boards.ie members. And we now have access to some statistics that show many AGS jurisdictions have ridiculous absentee rates and overall the crime solving rate is, in the Indo's words, "shockingly low" and "massaged".
    Can you remind me again what the point of complaining about AGS (if I had a complaint) would be when the complaints are essentially assessed by AGS?

    I referred to your 'chip' due to you being shown plenty of examples of Gardaí doing their jobs in extremely difficult circumstances even putting their personal safety on the line on and off duty thereby rubbishing your claims that Gardaí ignore criminals.

    I'm asking about your personal examples as you made a claim in your first post. You still choose to ignore the questions put to you instead linking to negative stories.

    The Sindo and other newspapers all have agendas, if you ask most public servants what they think of the Sindo you will probably get mainly negative comments.

    Finally, as for criticism of the job, Gardaí are usually the first to agree. The majority go to work to do an honest days work and are disgusted with wrong doing. They have also been calling for an independent body to be over the Garda service for years. So, it's not all bury the head in the sand.

    That's all I've got for this thread, no point going in circles.


  • #115
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    foreign wrote: »
    I referred to your 'chip' due to you being shown plenty of examples of Gardaí doing their jobs in extremely difficult circumstances even putting their personal safety on the line on and off duty thereby rubbishing your claims that Gardaí ignore criminals.

    I'm asking about your personal examples as you made a claim in your first post. You still choose to ignore the questions put to you instead linking to negative stories.

    The Sindo and other newspapers all have agendas, if you ask most public servants what they think of the Sindo you will probably get mainly negative comments.

    Finally, as for criticism of the job, Gardaí are usually the first to agree. The majority go to work to do an honest days work and are disgusted with wrong doing. They have also been calling for an independent body to be over the Garda service for years. So, it's not all bury the head in the sand.

    That's all I've got for this thread, no point going in circles.
    And we have at least as many examples of Garda corruption, negligence and brutality to counter your examples of Gardai doing their job properly. Plus statistics (yes, them) showing poor attendance in many areas and extremely poor actual detection rates. Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder regarding the public voicing any concerns at all about AGS?
    Yes, every last individual, government agency or media outlet has an anti-AGS "agenda". Sure.
    And why would my personal (if any) negative experience with AGS be of more or less value than the countless other examples available here on boards.ie could you tell me?


  • #116
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Is this some roundabout way of saying no such data exists?

    No. As you are having trouble understanding I'll phrase it in simpler terms.
    Look it up for yourself and you will find that available resources have been reduced.
    Hint: You may find it reported alongside "Smart Policing"
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I will assume Garda manpower has remained constant then.

    Assume whatever you like. One more thing to be wrong about will hardly make a difference at this stage.


  • #117
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    No. As you are having trouble understanding I'll phrase it in simpler terms.
    Look it up for yourself and you will find that available resources have been reduced.
    Hint: You may find it reported alongside "Smart Policing"



    Assume whatever you like. One more thing to be wrong about will hardly make a difference at this stage.
    Does this line of interrogation work with criminal suspects? "Hey, why don't you go and find evidence for me to prove you are guilty." :rolleyes:
    Look, if you've got something then post it. It's not my job to do Google searches to support your points.


  • #118
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Does this line of interrogation work with criminal suspects? "Hey, why don't you go and find evidence for me to prove you are guilty." :rolleyes:
    Look, if you've got something then post it. It's not my job to do Google searches to support your points.

    True, but you might want to try it to support your own.


  • #119
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    True, but you might want to try it to support your own.
    Sorry, did you miss or just deliberately ignore the data I posted on ridiculous Garda absenteeism in certain area or the "shockingly low" crime clean up rate?
    Give us another positive spin anecdote there, go on.
    So, you basically got nothing on falling AGS manpower? Good, now we can move on.


  • #120
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Sorry, did you miss or just deliberately ignore the data I posted on ridiculous Garda absenteeism in certain area or the "shockingly low" crime clean up rate?
    Give us another positive spin anecdote there, go on.
    So, you basically got nothing on falling AGS manpower? Good, now we can move on.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-fear-numbers-will-drop-below-13000-266857.html

    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/diminishing-garda-numbers-cause-for-concern-adams-30022412.html

    A drop of 2000 overall with another 350 due to retire this year. That's a reduction of about 15% Hope that helps.


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  • #121
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    came across this thread today and there seems to be a serious chip on someones shoulder.
    i think the guards do as best they can and with all the bad publicity they are getting lately i think the guys on the street will find it harder to show discretion. on the road over the years i have had 2 dealings with guards , shortly after speed limits changed i was caught speeding, 60 mph on a road where limit had been reduced to 80 kph , the guy gave me a bollocking and let me off .
    couple of years ago was caught on phone, asked guard to use his discretion but he done me anyway . could not complain in either case they seemed like decent enough guys, actually met the phone one a few days later socially and we had a good humoured slagging match about it


  • #122
    el pasco
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭el pasco


    People are jailed for not paying a tv licence yet there are very very serious allegations of Garda abuse and criminal activities and yet not one single Garda has been arrested or jailed


  • #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    el pasco wrote: »
    People are jailed for not paying a tv licence yet there are very very serious allegations of Garda abuse and criminal activities and yet not one single Garda has been arrested or jailed

    They are only allegations at the moment. Let the investigations happen then comment. Plenty of Gardaí have been convicted and jailed.


  • #124
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    el pasco wrote: »
    People are jailed for not paying a tv licence yet there are very very serious allegations of Garda abuse and criminal activities and yet not one single Garda has been arrested or jailed

    Name one person that has spent a night in jail for not paying a tv licence. They get booted out in a matter of hours. Your whole knowledge of the situation seems to be based off the comment section of the Journal.


  • #125
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    foreign wrote: »
    They are only allegations at the moment. Let the investigations happen then comment. Plenty of Gardaí have been convicted and jailed.
    Let the Gardai investigations of the Gardai continue. I'm sure we'll have a fair outcome. :D


  • #126
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Name one person that has spent a night in jail for not paying a tv licence. They get booted out in a matter of hours. Your whole knowledge of the situation seems to be based off the comment section of the Journal.
    Name them? LOL. Maybe AGS can look up their names, but how would a citizen?
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/411-people-jailed-last-year-for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-30235625.html
    A spokesperson from the Irish Prison Service said that people who are convicted of not paying their television licence usually serve anywhere between a couple of hours and a couple of days in jail.


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  • #127
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Name them? LOL. Maybe AGS can look up their names, but how would a citizen?
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/411-people-jailed-last-year-for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-30235625.html

    Right so you can't name even one that has spent a night.

    ANd you've conveniently ignored my post highlighting the reduction of Garda numbers by 15%. But I guess that's just your way.


  • #128
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Right so you can't name even one that has spent a night.

    ANd you've conveniently ignored my post highlighting the reduction of Garda numbers by 15%. But I guess that's just your way.
    TBH your question is moronic. Why do I have to individually name people who have been jailed for not paying their TV license when we have an actual number of them to destroy your assertion that nobody at all does? If you know every one of their names will the number change?
    And after telling me three times to search for information to support YOUR theories the best you could actually find yourself was one remark from the Gardai and one statement from Gerry Adams about Louth Garda numbers?
    What about these 2000 civilians now working for AGS? That's more that 15% of the force, even if you could find any real stats to back that drop up. (which I'm guessing at this stage you can't, which is why you're begging me to do it.)
    Crime rates are falling in Ireland anyway. Not that there's any evidence there's a connection to AGS numbers mind you.


  • #129
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    TBH your question is moronic. Why do I have to individually name people who have been jailed for not paying their TV license when we have an actual number of them to destroy your assertion that nobody at all does? If you know every one of their names will the number change?

    I asked you to name one person who has spent the night in jail. There's no doubt people are sent to jail but they don't stay there. They get given their bus fare and sent home. No waste of prison space.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And after telling me three times to search for information to support YOUR theories the best you could actually find yourself was one remark from the Gardai and one statement from Gerry Adams about Louth Garda numbers?
    What about these 2000 civilians now working for AGS? That's more that 15% of the force, even if you could find any real stats to back that drop up. (which I'm guessing at this stage you can't, which is why you're begging me to do it.)

    What do you want? a head count? So you think Garda numbers should include non-Gardaí? Are you for real? Actually don't bother. I'm done with your trolling now. Believe what you want.


  • #130
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I asked you to name one person who has spent the night in jail. There's no doubt people are sent to jail but they don't stay there. They get given their bus fare and sent home. No waste of prison space.



    What do you want? a head count? So you think Garda numbers should include non-Gardaí? Are you for real? Actually don't bother. I'm done with your trolling now. Believe what you want.
    Hey, why don't you name all the Gardai in Ireland and I'll believe you.
    That's about as useful a question as you wanting me to name all the people who have been jailed over TV licenses.
    Will I quote it again?
    A spokesperson from the Irish Prison Service said that people who are convicted of not paying their television licence usually serve anywhere between a couple of hours and a couple of days in jail.
    Which part of "a couple of days" has you utterly confused?


  • #131
    shampon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭shampon


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt0xkap-m6Y


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  • #132
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Hey, why don't you name all the Gardai in Ireland and I'll believe you.
    That's about as useful a question as you wanting me to name all the people who have been jailed over TV licenses.
    Will I quote it again?

    Which part of "a couple of days" has you utterly confused?

    Pathetic. :rolleyes:

    Come back when you stop pushing your fingers firmly into your ears and shouting lalala as loud as you can. Maybe then, an actual discussion can be had.


  • #133
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    bravestar wrote: »
    Maybe then, an actual discussion can be had.

    A discussion? With Dan_Solo? It would be like discussing thermo-nuclear physics with a cat.


  • #134
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    bravestar wrote: »
    Pathetic. :rolleyes:

    Come back when you stop pushing your fingers firmly into your ears and shouting lalala as loud as you can. Maybe then, an actual discussion can be had.
    Translation: I am incapable of answering that.
    The honesty is appreciated.


  • #135
    bravestar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Dermot Illogical wrote: »
    A discussion? With Dan_Solo? It would be like discussing thermo-nuclear physics with a cat.

    Exactly what this thread feels like and to illustrate that for anyone who couldn't be bothered reading it...

    http://youtu.be/qY1g9oO3SLQ


  • #136
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,810 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    This thread has been temporarily closed due to a number of complaints received, and to enable a fair and impartial investigation of said complaints.

    In order for the investigation to be as impartial as possible, I will be conducting the investigation, as the other 2 Moderators are both members of AGS and obvious allegations of favouritism could be levelled at either Mod if the investigation findings are wholly in favour of AGS.

    -Shield.


This discussion has been closed.
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