Halal meat - should it be labeled as such?

FrStone

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2623805/Our-shoppers-dont-care-meat-halal-claim-supermarkets-Retailers-face-backlash-saying-unnecessary-label-meats.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27322350

Basically there seems to be furore in the UK at the moment over the Supermarkets not specifying that Halal meat is Halal.

Personally I think it should be labeled, it would allow Muslims no with certainty that what they are eating is Halal. It would also allow those who oppose the idea of Halal meat, not buy it by accident.

wes

Of course it should be.

They should also make sure that meat, that is labelled as such is actually Halal, as there have been cases, when it has not been. People should always be aware of what they are buying.

Having said that if we are being honest, people will probably completely ignore the information on the labels, as they do now.

GLaDOS

I wouldn't have a problem with it and there would be obvious benefits for those who abstain from other meat.

I wonder if supermarkets would be afraid of people avoiding the products, either out of fear of the unknown or actual bigotry.

Tokyo

Considering that not so long ago the same supermarkets couldn't guarantee that there wasn't horsemeat in their meat products, I'd imagine that they are reluctant to label meat anything that might come back to bite them in the future if it's found to be less than true...

Seaneh

Would make life easier for observant jews and muslims in Ireland anyway.

There are plenty of ethnic stores with Halal butchers in them in larger urban areas but outside of them it's hard going for Muslims in Ireland to find halal meat.
Outside of Dublin it's nearly impossible to find kosher meat in Ireland.

Menas

I lived in the UK during the mad cow crisis of the early 90s. I only ate halal meat as they were the only ones I would trust at the time.

Jawgap

Most meat you buy in supermarkets is slaughtered using Zabiha (hal al) methods.

I'm all for consumer choice and if it means people being better educated about where their meat comes from, how the animal was handled and how it was killed, then yes it would be a good idea.

Frankly, though, I don't people realise what goes on slaughterhouses and they don't want to know.

Plus, hal al means not a whole lot really - I'd rather know the animal was handled properly, stunned efficiently and and bled properly rather than whether it was done using Zabiha or Shechita (kosher) practices. Although Shechita methods would not be allowed in Ireland.

I'd prefer if they put the method (and number of attempts) of stunning on the packaging.

guttenberg

Jawgap wrote: »

Most meat you buy in supermarkets is slaughtered using Zabiha (hal al) methods.

I'm all for consumer choice and if it means people being better educated about where their meat comes from, how the animal was handled and how it was killed, then yes it would be a good idea.

Frankly, though, I don't people realise what goes on slaughterhouses and they don't want to know.

Plus, hal al means not a whole lot really - I'd rather know the animal was handled properly, stunned efficiently and and bled properly rather than whether it was done using Zabiha or Shechita (kosher) practices. Although Shechita methods would not be allowed in Ireland.

I'd prefer if they put the method (and number of attempts) of stunning on the packaging.

Is stunning not forbidden in halal?

Tokyo

Interesting to note that Denmark has recently banned kosher and halal slaughter for reasons of cruelty....

Tokyo

guttenberg wrote: »

Is stunning not forbidden in halal?

Yes, it is. The accepted method is to let the animal bleed out.

Slicemeister

If it wasn't Hal or Al that butchered it, no.

kylith

Jawgap wrote: »

Most meat you buy in supermarkets is slaughtered using Zabiha (hal al) methods.

I'm all for consumer choice and if it means people being better educated about where their meat comes from, how the animal was handled and how it was killed, then yes it would be a good idea.

Frankly, though, I don't people realise what goes on slaughterhouses and they don't want to know.

Plus, hal al means not a whole lot really - I'd rather know the animal was handled properly, stunned efficiently and and bled properly rather than whether it was done using Zabiha or Shechita (kosher) practices. Although Shechita methods would not be allowed in Ireland.

I'd prefer if they put the method (and number of attempts) of stunning on the packaging.

Untrue. Halal methods mean that the animal cannot be stunned before being slaughtered (which is why I don't want to buy it as I consider it cruel). There are few slaughterhouses in Ireland that use halal methods.

Jawgap

mike_ie wrote: »

Yes, it is. The accepted method is to let the animal bleed out.

No, it's not. With Islamic slaughter stunning is permitted as the animal need only be alive at the time of slaughter.

Kosher slaughter, however, prohibits stunning because stunning represents an injury and at the time of slaughter the animal must be uninjured.

Jester252

mike_ie wrote: »

Yes, it is. The accepted method is to let the animal bleed out.

Not correct, Halal butcher are allowed to stun the animal if they want/have to.

In any regard all meat should be labelled for what it is, I try my best to only buy meat that can be traced back to the farm.

kylith

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's not. With Islamic slaughter stunning is permitted as the animal need only be alive at the time of slaughter.

Kosher slaughter, however, prohibits stunning because stunning represents an injury and at the time of slaughter the animal must be uninjured.

The Islamic method states that the animal must be killed with a single cut, which cannot be guaranteed if the animal is stunned.

afatbollix

I think they should put a label that showed the animal was slaughtered by stunning first.

I would eat Halal meat if if the animal was stunned first.

Jawgap

kylith wrote: »

Untrue. Halal methods mean that the animal cannot be stunned before being slaughtered (which is why I don't want to buy it as I consider it cruel). There are few slaughterhouses in Ireland that use halal methods.

Again, that's not true. The requirement is for the animal to be alive, which allows it to be stunned.

From the Halal Food Authority who certify businesses etc

What now becomes abundantly clear for halal purposes is that:

• An animal should not be dead prior to slaughter
• A Muslim should perform slaughter
• Any flowing blood of the carcass should be completely drained
• Choice of modern and in vogue method has to be considered with caution and, it should be in line with Islamic principles

Plus more slaughterhouses than you realise use halal methods. what usually prevents them is the availability of a Muslim to carry out the slaughter (or they don't want to go down the road of using another 'person of the book (e.g a Christian))

Halal doesn't bother me - I'd rather eat meat from an efficiently slaughtered Halal animal than a botched 'conventional' slaughter where the g0bsh1te with the stunner takes 3 to 4 attempts to put the poor animal down.

Jawgap

afatbollix wrote: »

I think they should put a label that showed the animal was slaughtered by stunning first.

I would eat Halal meat if if the animal was stunned first.

All meat sold in the EU has come from animals that have been stunned (or should have been stunned!)- they could however put the number of attempts it took to bring the animal down on the label along with the method used.

Dermighty

It's hilarious to me that people differentiate between driving a metal slug through a cows brain and cutting its throat.

mulbot

guttenberg wrote: »

Is stunning not forbidden in halal?

it is yep and it's a horrible disgusting thing to kill any animal without having the respect to make sure the death is as quick,humane and stressfree as possible!!

(and i've worked my teenage years and through college in the same meat factory who had the humane treatment of animals-however from time to time hal al methods were allowed**they would bring in their own slaughterman**

wes

mulbot wrote: »

it is yep

As others have pointed out that is not the case, as a lot Halal is actually stunned. Now some do insist on no stunning occurring, but they are a minority in Europe. Also to note that most of Halal meat in Europe is stunned:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18187137

But EU research from 2006 indicated that 75% of cattle, 93% of sheep and 100% of chickens slaughtered in the UK for halal meat were stunned prior to their deaths. Figures produced by the Food Standards Agency (FSA) in 2011 give a similar picture: 84%, 81% and 88%, respectively.

So as you can see from the above figures, most use the stunning method.

mulbot

wes wrote: »

As others have pointed out that is not the case, as a lot Halal is actually stunned. Now some do insist on no stunning occurring, but they are a minority in Europe. Also to note that most of Halal meat in Europe is stunned:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18187137



So as you can see from the above figures, most use the stunning method.

ah ok,it's been a while since i worked there-it's not a nice method anyway,

Jawgap

mulbot wrote: »

it is yep and it's a horrible disgusting thing to kill any animal without having the respect to make sure the death is as quick,humane and stressfree as possible!!

(and i've worked my teenage years and through college in the same meat factory who had the humane treatment of animals-however from time to time hal al methods were allowed**they would bring in their own slaughterman**

Sorry, but that is just not true.

I've worked in slaughterhouses here and the UK and been involved in the supervision and licensing of them (in the UK) - most of the requirements relating to halal are already present in the existing legislation and stunning is permitted - in fact if they were slaughtering without stunning then it was illegal.

Most of the time when they bring in their own slaughterman it's because they need a Muslim to administer the 'coup de grace' and to make sure the right prayer is said.

Tokyo

There has been a certain amount of compromise made in Europe and North America (and New Zealand if I'm not mistaken) with regards to stunning. Where government requirements have made stunning compulsory, halal authorities have accepted animals which are stunned with strict requirements and measures in place to ensure that the animal is alive when slaughtered apparently. The more staunch followers of the practice though will refuse to eat animals which have been processed this way, and in other parts of the world stunning is not accepted at all.

Caliden

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry, but that is just not true.

I've worked in slaughterhouses here and the UK and been involved in the supervision and licensing of them (in the UK) - most of the requirements relating to halal are already present in the existing legislation and stunning is permitted - in fact if they were slaughtering without stunning then it was illegal.

Most of the time when they bring in their own slaughterman it's because they need a Muslim to administer the 'coup de grace' and to make sure the right prayer is said.

It would also be extremely dangerous to attempt to slaughter a cow if it wasn't stunned.
Imagine a 750kg animal strung upside down flailing around, recipe for disaster

Holsten

Yes of course it should.

Complete silliness to me but it hours e labels as such so the Muslims can be happy.

Chinasea

Should'nt be sold full stop. Disgusting archaic practice.

keyboard_cat

Dermighty wrote: »

It's hilarious to me that people differentiate between driving a metal slug through a cows brain and cutting its throat.

There is a huge difference would you be happy getting surgery without being knocked out first?

LoonyLovegood

As long as the animal is killed as painlessly as possible, who cares if it's Halal or not? (apart from those whose religions mandate it to be halal)

Dodge

Chinasea wrote: »

Should'nt be sold full stop. Disgusting archaic practice.

As opposed to the happy clappy modern slaughter of other religions/non-believers

shedweller

Caliden wrote: »

It would also be extremely dangerous to attempt to slaughter a cow if it wasn't stunned.
Imagine a 750kg animal strung upside down flailing around, recipe for disaster

They have steel frames for holding them upside down while the cut is made. Its all (in some cases at least) mechanised and efficient. Doesnt end well for the cow though and in my opinion is a cruel way to end an animals life. Liveleak has the videos if anyone wants to see how its done. Some of you "who cares" people might change your tune afterwards.

Tokyo

CTYIgirl wrote: »

As long as the animal is killed as painlessly as possible, who cares if it's Halal or not? (apart from those whose religions mandate it to be halal)

Dodge wrote: »

As opposed to the happy clappy modern slaughter of other religions/non-believers

This, pretty much in a nutshell. I've slaughtered animals myself over the years, more often than not overseas where slitting the throat is allowed, and I can say firsthand that I'd consider it a hell of a lot more humane than some of the practices I've seen in slaughterhouses. Coupled with the fact that nothing is wasted, not even blood, if I had a choice about the matter, I'd pick the way I've suggested above over captive bolt any day.

Jawgap

You cannot slaughter an animal that has not been stunned. It's a legal requirement and nearly every vet I know would refuse to supervise the slaughter of animal that was not stunned before slaughter for reasons of ethics - that means the carcass wouldn't be stamped, the vet won't sign off on the slaughter, which means the meat can't be sold.

I don't doubt there are videos on liveleak but were they shot (excuse the pun) in EU slaughterhouses?

Effectively, the only difference in this part of the world between Halal and conventional slaughter is the prayer.

In fact, you could argue that conventional slaughter 'caught up' with Halal when they discontinued pithing, which was always outlawed by the Halal requirements.

Robbo

I'd be in favour of it because as far as I'm aware, good wholesome Irishmeat all comes from animals that have died peacefully of old age, surrounded by their loved ones. None of your barbaric foreign muck for me.

RandomName2

Dodge wrote: »

As opposed to the happy clappy modern slaughter of other religions/non-believers

Most people here, I think, would hope that we could come to the point where animals can be guaranteed to be raised and handled with due care, and be slaughtered quickly and painlessly as possible.

Halal guarantees a lingering death, but makes no pronouncement about the rest. I find it has dubious merit to slaughter animals in a particular way just to cater to a particular belief system.

I seriously doubt that most slaughterhouses would practice halal as a matter of course, or if they did, it would primarily be accidental. :eek:

Those arguing that the Qur'an says nothing that prohibits animals being stunned are neglecting the fact that the thing (like all holy scripture) is open to interpretation. Can be guaranteed that certain sects will disdain from meat that was stunned before being bled out.

CruelCoin

FrStone wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2623805/Our-shoppers-dont-care-meat-halal-claim-supermarkets-Retailers-face-backlash-saying-unnecessary-label-meats.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27322350

Basically there seems to be furore in the UK at the moment over the Supermarkets not specifying that Halal meat is Halal.

Personally I think it should be labeled, it would allow Muslims no with certainty that what they are eating is Halal. It would also allow those who oppose the idea of Halal meat, not buy it by accident.

Why would it matter if it is halal or not?

Nothing is added to the meat. The only thing that is different is the way in which the animal was killed.

What is there to oppose?

Jawgap

RandomName2 wrote: »

Most people here, I think, would hope that we could come to the point where animals can be guaranteed to be raised and handled with due care, and be slaughtered quickly and painlessly as possible.

Halal guarantees a lingering death, but makes no pronouncement about the rest. I find it has dubious merit to slaughter animals in a particular way just to cater to a particular belief system.

I seriously doubt that most slaughterhouses would practice halal as a matter of course, or if they did, it would primarily be accidental. :eek:

Those arguing that the Qur'an says nothing that prohibits animals being stunned are neglecting the fact that the thing (like all holy scripture) is open to interpretation. Can be guaranteed that certain sects will disdain from meat that was stunned before being bled out.

Conventional slaughter and halal both induce death through exsanguination and both use stunning - as I said, apart from the prayer there's not a whole lot to choose between them in the EU.

If anything, the Halal approach promotes greater respect for the animal, and it wouldn't allow, for example, casualty animals (emergency slaughter) to be eaten. The animal has to be healthy at slaughter (usually taken to mean it has to walk in unassisted).

Chinasea

Dodge wrote: »

As opposed to the happy clappy modern slaughter of other religions/non-believers

Comedian

Tail Docker

Yeah, and if you ever watched it being done, you'd agree with the ban. I jacked in finishing cattle as it came to the point where every line was halal for some reason. "Down that road without me" was my attitude.

Nodin

shedweller wrote: »

They have steel frames for holding them upside down while the cut is made. Its all (in some cases at least) mechanised and efficient. Doesnt end well for the cow though and in my opinion is a cruel way to end an animals life. Liveleak has the videos if anyone wants to see how its done. Some of you "who cares" people might change your tune afterwards.

Never does, regardless of whose slaughterhouse they go in.

Too Tough To Die

Halal. Is it meat you're looking for?

Boombastic

have the discriminatory hiring practices carried out by slaughterhouses been mentioned?

you can not discriminate by religion

Tail Docker

Nodin wrote: »

Never does, regardless of whose slaughterhouse they go in.

There's slaughtering an animal and there's slaughtering an animal. Some dead-eyed gowl with a butchers knife slicing their throat raw isn't my idea of getting an unpleasant but necessary job done in a proper manner. Same goes for the gowl with the prod getting carried away with the electric whip to move the animal along. If they did it to mine, they'd wake up with a crowd standing round them and my foot up their hole.

I had prime cattle, so I had a good relationship with the factories, front of the queue style, that and the fact slaughtering was my old mans trade when he was young, so squeamish I am not. I was reared getting dragged around factories and slaughter lines, but I have 0.002 seconds time for someone who does not realise there is a way of going on and a way of not going on. Sadly, it's a career that attracts the less sensitive type, but that's no reason to act the hoor. Some "rules" laid down in the dark-ages need not be the way it is done nowadays.

shedweller

Jawgap wrote: »

If anything, the Halal approach promotes greater respect for the animal, and it wouldn't allow, for example, casualty animals (emergency slaughter) to be eaten. The animal has to be healthy at slaughter (usually taken to mean it has to walk in unassisted).

I think Tail Docker below might disagree with this. As do i.
Being cut through the throat and let bleed to death is nowhere near respect for the animal.
Have a look at a beheading video and marvel at all the respect. A beheading is where they cut a persons head off from the front of the throat and ending up at the back, where the spinal cord is. This means you are fully conscious as the knife goes through your throat and on towards your jugular vein and arteries etc. I see no respect here and to say respect is shown to an animal by slaughtering it similarly is either because of naievety or an agenda.

Seaneh

Besides the fact that halal meat in Europe is Stun Halal and the animal is stunned before being cut, much the same as every other animal killed in Europe.

But sure don't let your hysteria get in the way of the facts, which haven been highlighted several times in this thread by people like Jawgap, that would just be silly.

shedweller

So i should be ok with a muslim prayer said over my meat before i buy it?
Reverse the situation for a minute and imagine the ****storm.
And dont deny that there is non stun halal going on. Remember the horsemeat scandal? How can we trust anyone to do anything right.
Argue all you want. The fact still remains.

MRnotlob606

kebabs are nice

pO1Neil

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I lived in the UK during the mad cow crisis of the early 90s. I only ate halal meat as they were the only ones I would trust at the time.

I think that was around 97 or 98 (it was deffo after the Spice Girls came out). You most have been doing a lot drugs during the 90's?

pO1Neil

What exactly is Halal meat & why do only Muslims eat it? Is it a bit like the way only Catholics eat potato's?

Push Pop

How we allow such practices in a civilized country is beyond me. I didn't vote for it, that's for sure.

Sir Osis of Liver.

pO1Neil wrote: »

What exactly is Halal meat & why do only Muslims eat it? Is it a bit like the way only Catholics eat potato's?

Its beef,only wrapped in rashers.
Fcukin ace it is.