My 11 year old is expelled

Angel973

My son has just been expelled from his school. He is in 6th class. He starts a new school in September and his present school have offered the option for us to just 'take him out' as opposed to having the word 'expelled' on his file.
He was previously suspended before Christmas for writing obscenities on a school wall. At that time he was given a final warning too.
Last week he got in to a fight with a boy in his class and ended up hitting him in the privates. The boy got upset and my son got yet another day's suspension. I suspect he got this due to his previous behaviour at Christmas.
Yesterday, he brought a knife to school and waved it in front of the boy he had the fight with. Understandably, he has now been expelled. He says it was done as a joke and that obviously he would never have hurt him. I am trying to explain to him that threatening behaviour like that is disgusting and he would, if he did it when older, probably end up in prison.
Anyway, I know his behaviour is disgusting and to be honest, I can't believe I am writing this about my son.
I am looking for ideas of things to do with him over the coming months before he starts his new school. He has younger siblings so I do need to bear them in mind.
At the moment I wish I could just crawl under a rock and never come out.
Any ideas?
I am in the process of looking in to him seeing a child psychologist, I'm not sure if he needs one but I thought it might be worth trying.

December2012

I think you are doing the right thing in referring him to a child psychiatrist. Your son needs help. Is there anything going on at home that might suggest family therapy would be beneficial?

jefferson73

lol...Is 19 years too old to sit the Leaving Cert? If I have to repeat, then I will be 20!

Angel973

There isn't anything I can think of going on at home. He says he 'doesn't know' why he brought the knife in to school. In my mind, the fact that he did points to pre-meditation. Thanks for the reply though.

visual

Some hard love is needed.
There is not much left of 6th year so taking him out is not a big issue.

But don't allow him enjoy this time or he will see it as a reward for bad behaviour and be showing a bad example to his siblings.

Get him up at same time set out a days work so his learning can continue. Then as your having to take time out of your day to supervise and revise his work have him do houshold choirs.
This has to be a life lesson so it won't be easy on either of you but slide backwards and go easy then it will come back on you both.

Most parents won't be able to follow through with this but if you want to change his ways you must be strict with him. If his friends are like minded ground him so he goes no where without you.

December2012

I presume he still has his books etc so you can do his school work. See if there are any home schooling parents associations that you can get advice and support from so that he does not fall behind in his school work.

jefferson73

Were you 9 or 10 when you gave birth to your son?...Going by your first ever post your soon to be 20?

Golfwidow

Angel973 wrote: »

There isn't anything I can think of going on at home. He says he 'doesn't know' why he brought the knife in to school. In my mind, the fact that he did points to pre-meditation. Thanks for the reply though.

Before you accept the expulsion, you might think about looking at the following links: https://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/BehaviourandDiscipline/SuspensionExpulsion/
and: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_discipline.html
You do know that the Education Welfare Officer must be informed at least 20 days before any expulsion takes place?
In fact it is quite difficult to legally fulfill the requirements allowing a primary school pupil to actually be expelled!!

January

jefferson73 wrote: »

Were you 9 or 10 when you gave birth to your son?...Going by your first ever post your soon to be 20?

If you have problems with posts, report them. Stop posting off topic on the thread.

matc66

I'd go through one of the children's hospitals, Crumlin or Temple st., ask who their community liason child psychology person is and then ask them for advice. It probably isn't necessary to go the whole way to a psychiatrist, someone who is experienced in childhood behaviour would be my first step.
That is unless you can think of an obvious source of conflict causing your son to act out.
Best of luck.

PS If you are going to oppose the expulsion try and not make your son feel he has been wronged, otherwise it'll make him seeing the wrong he has done more difficult.

Outkast_IRE

What does your son do with his free time ?

Is he involved in any sports of clubs ?

Does he play ps3 , xbox or similar ? If yes what games and stuff has he got and asked you for ?

What programs and movies is he watching ?

I know some of these questions are a bit of a cliché but they are important in establishing what he is like outside of school.

Does he have any particular hobbies or interests ?

BorneTobyWilde

Knife sounds like protection,or to scare off the person who is harassing him.You need to give him a pen and paper and tell him to write down in his own time why he brought knife to school. Also to write down reasons he gets in trouble in school.
Would be a lot easier for him to write this.

susie2014

Dear Angel973,
I specifically signed up to Boards.ie so I could reply to you!!! I have a little knowledge in this area.
Firstly...... There are some facts and info that you should arm yourself with....
To the best of my knowledge a school cannot advise you to "take your child out of school" rather than expel him. You are legally obliged by the NEWB (National Education Welfare Board) to ensure that your son attends a registered school unless you are prepared to educate him yourself at home. A previous poster mentioned the education welfare officer and I think that it would be an excellent idea to contact this person. You can contact an Educational Welfare Officer on Lo-call number 1890 36 36 66
Should you decide to educate him at home, there should be a designated school based in your local community that offer support and resources to parents who choose to educate their children at home. Educating a child at home is a huge undertaking and I think you would need to be well versed in this as you need to prepare plans, assessments etc which are all subject to inspection by department of education inspectors and education welfare officers at any time.

Every child in Ireland is legally entitled to an education and so the state will have to accommodate him at a school somewhere if you cannot educate him at home.
You should google "education welfare act 2000". This explains the rights, obligations and entitlements of all parties involved in the education of a child in Ireland. Read the act. It looks daunting but it's actually not. (I had to read it a few years ago...I dreaded the thought but when I sat down to do it...it was actually very interesting and not at all complicated.)

The best of luck with your challenge ahead.

iguana

susie2014 wrote: »

Educating a child at home is a huge undertaking and I think you would need to be well versed in this as you need to prepare plans, assessments etc which are all subject to inspection by department of education inspectors and education welfare officers at any time.

That's not true. The powers of the CFA* inspectors are extremely limited and no parent is required to show them what they are doing in any real detail, all they need to see is that certain minimum standards are being met. It's only when they see obvious problems that what you describe becomes necessary.

*The NEWB is defunct.

sillysmiles

susie2014 wrote: »

Every child in Ireland is legally entitled to an education

I have massive issues with this.
Where is his responsibility to act appropriately?
Rights come with responsibilities and he seems to have completely ignored all responsibility to be a decent human being.

He got in a fight, kicked some young fella in the nuts and then brought a knife to school.

What about the rights of the other children not to have to go to school with someone who (pre-mediated) brought a weapon to school.

Carson10

Hi OP.

You really seem to be at a last resort.

I would suggest you bring him to some ex offenders centre where he could get a talk off people who were involved in crime/stabbings etc and who have turned their life around. Even if he met someone who has survived a stabbing and would show him the scar etc, this could give him a real eye opener. Even some of these ex offenders would scare him a little.

You really need to ask fast now/tough love, or he will only get worse if he enters his teens.

Good luck!

Mr. Z

In my non-medical, non-parental, to-be-taken-with-a-pinch-of-salt humble opinion, he doesn't need a psychiatrist. Just a damned good talking to as to why this is such a major NO-NO!

He done a really stupid thing. He probably (almost certainly) watched a video/played a computer game/was naively impressed and thought it would be "cool" to do such a silly thing.

You should consider getting him to write a small note of apology/brief explanation to the other child. It will probably make everyone feel a bit better about the situation.



1. Sees something portrayed as "cool" or "bad ass" on TV.

2. Imagines will be cool to do the same (Ridiculous logic which seems like a great idea at the time)

3. Actually alludes to/does "bad ass" (potentially dangerous) thing (Important lesson to be learned about distinguishing reality/TV and make believe)

This could be perfect opportunity to teach this important lesson.

4. Probably feels really stupid and bad about the whole situation.


Good luck OP.

Dr Turk Turkelton

susie2014 wrote: »

Dear Angel973,
I specifically signed up to Boards.ie so I could reply to you!!! I have a little knowledge in this area.
Firstly...... There are some facts and info that you should arm yourself with....
To the best of my knowledge a school cannot advise you to "take your child out of school" rather than expel him. You are legally obliged by the NEWB (National Education Welfare Board) to ensure that your son attends a registered school unless you are prepared to educate him yourself at home. A previous poster mentioned the education welfare officer and I think that it would be an excellent idea to contact this person. You can contact an Educational Welfare Officer on Lo-call number 1890 36 36 66
Should you decide to educate him at home, there should be a designated school based in your local community that offer support and resources to parents who choose to educate their children at home. Educating a child at home is a huge undertaking and I think you would need to be well versed in this as you need to prepare plans, assessments etc which are all subject to inspection by department of education inspectors and education welfare officers at any time.

Every child in Ireland is legally entitled to an education and so the state will have to accommodate him at a school somewhere if you cannot educate him at home.
You should google "education welfare act 2000". This explains the rights, obligations and entitlements of all parties involved in the education of a child in Ireland. Read the act. It looks daunting but it's actually not. (I had to read it a few years ago...I dreaded the thought but when I sat down to do it...it was actually very interesting and not at all complicated.)

The best of luck with your challenge ahead.

What about the rights of the children who don't carry knives to school.
In my opinion any child that would do that should never be let near an educational facility again.

yawhat!

They see me trolling, they hating.

twowheelsonly

visual wrote: »

Some hard love is needed.
There is not much left of 6th year so taking him out is not a big issue.

But don't allow him enjoy this time or he will see it as a reward for bad behaviour and be showing a bad example to his siblings.

Get him up at same time set out a days work so his learning can continue. Then as your having to take time out of your day to supervise and revise his work have him do houshold choirs.
This has to be a life lesson so it won't be easy on either of you but slide backwards and go easy then it will come back on you both.

Most parents won't be able to follow through with this but if you want to change his ways you must be strict with him. If his friends are like minded ground him so he goes no where without you.

THIS ^^^

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Knife sounds like protection,or to scare off the person who is harassing him.You need to give him a pen and paper and tell him to write down in his own time why he brought knife to school. Also to write down reasons he gets in trouble in school.
Would be a lot easier for him to write this.

AND THIS ^^^(Very important to try this first)

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

What about the rights of the children who don't carry knives to school.
In my opinion any child that would do that should never be let near an educational facility again.

That's true, let's turf him out on the streets with the bare minimum of education, isolate him from his peers and school-friends and make his own friends out on the streets who will guide him and treat him accordingly. :rolleyes:

Just as well that the State and the powers that be don't agree with you..

---

I'm as far as you can get from a tree hugger but this guy sounds like he needs something between tough love and compassion. At this stage I wouldn't be inclined to get any of the psych/welfare services involved as they can be impossible to shake off and in my experience they can stigmatise a child. If the behaviour were to continue it would probably be necessary but he's young enough yet to learn from you.

Do you have any family Aunts/Uncles/Grandparents who can take him off you for a while and let him know how much his behaviour is upsetting and affecting you? Stay away from him and let it be known that he can't live at home and behave that way? Do you have any friends in the Gardai that could have an unofficial word with him and tell him some scare stories?

BorneTobyWilde has a great suggestion to write things down as he won't feel under so much pressure and is more likely to be truthful than a conversation. This will also give you and others a decent insight into his mindset and allow to proceed from there.

Mr Pseudonym

From what I gather, the only reprehensible action was the taking of the knife to school. The child should see a psychologist, but there is not necessarily some underlying psychological issue; it may just be that he thoroughly misjudged the response his actions would get. The OP should show her/his disappointment, but the incident has occurred and the punishment has been handed out - unless he is unrepentant (be conscious, though, that he may adopt a defensive stance in the face of such condemnation) the incident should be put to one side, and not taint his summer nor trouble him during what is likely to be a doubly difficult return to school.

Hope all works out.

degsie

Given what happened in Leeds, UK recently carrying a knife in nothing to scoff at!

iamstop

IMH, I'm not a huge fan of this psychology talk.
I was in the scouts as a kid and we all had pen knives. All lads that age are drawn to knives and fire etc. Scouts was a good way, for me, to learn how to respect them both.
I think what you should do is call your local garda station, explain what happened and ask if they will give your son a tour of the holding cells.
When I was in the cubs in Tallaght the new police station was just opening up and we were given a tour of the whole place. But going in to the holding cells had a lasting impression on the young me and made me realize I never wanted to end up in one.
Whatever you do, good luck.

hefferboi

Half the posts seem to think the child is in 6th year and the other half think he's in 6th class.

mrkiscool2

OP re the kinfe
When I was 13, I was joking with my sisters once. I was scaring them and they all climbed into the trampoline. I then pretended I was stabbed and then ran to the trampoline and ran the knife along the enclosure.

I have never been in more trouble in my life. I was severely punished and I never did anything like that again. What he did was silly, but maybe it's because he doesn't fully understand what something like that means. I would discipline him the exact same way I was. Harshly and severely while explaining that it was one of the worst things he can do. That will set him straight

Also, as was said above there is no way to expell a student without going through a massive procedure and a lot of red tape. A school also cannot advise you to "withdraw a student". What he did was quite bad, but I can't imagine that would be an expulsion. Definitely a massive reprimand but not an expulsion

sillysmiles

To the posters who say he can't be expelled for carrying a weapon-what do you think are grounds for expulsion?

susie2014

Dear Sillysmiles,

I know...and I agree...but unfortunately the law (Education Act 1998 or Education Welfare Act 200) doesn't place any responsibilities on the child to behave in an appropriate fashion. The schools job is to keep all children safe while on the premises as they are in *loco Parentis* during school hours. The only thing they can do is to expel him.

susie2014

iguana wrote: »

That's not true. The powers of the CFA* inspectors are extremely limited and no parent is required to show them what they are doing in any real detail, all they need to see is that certain minimum standards are being met. It's only when they see obvious problems that what you describe becomes necessary.

*The NEWB is defunct.

Dear Iguana,

I am not sure you are correct. I filled out paperwork for the NEWB only 2 weeks ago and google doesn't know who the CFA are....so I think the NEWB are still in action....nor has the education welfare act been repealed which is the act underpinning the NEWB..plus their website is still up and running so.........
With regards to inspection.....are you are aware of exactly what the minimum standards are..?.unless the "homeschool teacher" involved has an indepth knowledge of the Irish Primary Curriculum, is familiar with the content of the curricular areas, the teaching methodologies, the approaches, assessment methods, resources.........I could go on, then it is a massive undertaking.
The NEWB frequently carry out inspections in homeschool situations as the are bound to do under the act. They do this in order to make sure that a child in homeschool will finish with the same rounded education as a child from a mainstream school and both can become contributing members of society and can maintain gainful employment. There is actually a lot of skill and knowledge involved in educating a child particularly in such areas as literacy and numeracy and parents who undertake this are usually very committed and work hard when taking responsibility for their children's education. Of course they aim to meet "the minimum standards" but those standards are quite high and require vast knowledge on the subject.

sillysmiles

Susie I thought it was that a child had to be in A school but if the child didn't comply with the code of conduct the school can expel and it is the parents responsibility to find any school that will take him.

Sadderday

Hi OP,

Sorry for you in this situation.

If this is the case: your almost afraid to discipline him, follow through on set rules or basically challenge him in any way incase his behaviour flares. (not saying this is the case but you seem very sympathetic towards him).
- he needs to see someone because in your heart or hearts if you are even slightly fearful of his reactions or behaviour - it is necessary.

You may need to take a step back and anaylise him.
Boys will be boys of course, but not all boys are expelled.

If you feel that he is a good child and possibly not understanding the concept of rules it might be something you need to work on at home so that he can adapt in social situations. He took a knife to school, he may have seen this in a game, on the tv, read it or just heard about it somewhere but it is an unusual action to take a knife to school. Otherwise all the boys would be doing it.

You might have to buy him a journal and tell him to write stuff down so that you can see how hes thinking. Maybe hes being bullied or was trying to impress a girl ? kids do see weapons in music videos and stuff nowadays - it is possible that he really thought he could show it around, stick it in his bag, go home, not get caught and be cool.

This isolated incident... although very scary considering what happened in Leeds etc doesnt mean your son is a monster.... but he must comprehend that this behaviour along with the other incidents that he got warnings for is not acceptable... and if your usual way of discussing this with him is not working... you have to get creative.

Hes at home for a few weeks - find out whats going on. Get him up every morning at 7am doing chores. Dont let him lay in bed or watch tv or hang out with his mates.

Honestly, its now or never... once he hits secondary school - hes in the teenager zone, if he's expelled from secondary school - his life will be a lot harder as will yours.

This is the way it is, he is just a child so you can't be sure what way he is going to turn out. Could be all attention seeking (because there are younger children taking up your time too) or could be signs that he will be rebellious and could cause harm to someone and his own future. I don't know if you have an idea yourself OP?, but you know deep down so get to work with him now before things get harder for everyone.

Best of Luck.

luketitz

January wrote: »

If you have problems with posts, report them. Stop posting off topic on the thread.

Has he not pointed out a pretty glaring hole in the validity of this post though?

Given the fact the OP hasn't replied and many others are vesting their concern/effort in an attempt the OP with his/her perceived plight, it seems pertinent to question the validity of the opening post.

Looking at the evidence, it doesn't appear to be a genuine post. I encountered something a couple of weeks back with a brand new account initially claiming to be 15 y.o. then asking about online bingo and then disappearing when I called it out.

Again, off-topic but valid enough IMHO, given real people are investing real time in trying to be as helpful as possible with their concerned advice.

Sadderday

luketitz wrote: »

Has he not pointed out a pretty glaring hole in the validity of this post though?

Given the fact the OP hasn't replied and many others are vesting their concern/effort in an attempt the OP with his/her perceived plight, it seems pertinent to question the validity of the opening post.

Looking at the evidence, it doesn't appear to be a genuine post. I encountered something a couple of weeks back with a brand new account initially claiming to be 15 y.o. then asking about online bingo and then disappearing when I called it out.

Again, off-topic but valid enough IMHO, given real people are investing real time in trying to be as helpful as possible with their concerned advice.

Wow, you're right... the previous posts don't add up and I spent a while thinking of how to input on this thread. Could it be possible that whoever originally posted is doing so (on either topic) on behalf of someone else so they don't have to type third party ??

Orion

And we're done.