Could a happily married man have an affair ?

Chimamanda

Hi guys . I'm looking for a male perspective here if you wouldn't mind .
I just wondered if a happily married man could ever consider/engage in an affair ?
Let's say you could get away with it and didn't think your wife would find out ?
Is it possible to love someone and be happily married yet get your kicks elsewhere too coz it's handed to you on a plate ?
My husband claims that he loves me dearly and has never stopped loving me even though he was having sex with someone else . Is it a load of bs or could he be telling me the truth ?

sopretty

He probably is telling the truth.

Chimamanda

sopretty wrote: »

He probably is telling the truth.

Can I ask you why you say that ?

sopretty

Sorry, I've just noticed you're asking for the male perspective. I am giving my opinion as someone who was single and had an affair with a married man. I wasn't handing anything on a plate. What 'lured me in' I suppose, was the fact that he was upfront about the fact that he adored his wife and family and would never leave her and that she would never know. He pursued me fairly persistently. I relented. He was rich, he treated me well, wined and dined me. In the heel of the hunt, I think he realised that the month or so of dealing with a drunken 20 year old, was nothing to compare to what he had at home. For my part, I went back to his apartment one night (he was commuting) to see lovely little drawings his 2 and 4 year old had drawn for him, and decided I couldn't do it anymore.

I think it worked out well for him. He was actually, a devoted father and husband (sounds unbelievable, but he was).

sopretty

Just to clarify, there was never the stereotypical 'I'm unhappy in my marriage' crap. He was upfront about the fact that he adored her and his family, and that it was what it was. It was company for him I suppose, and a chance at reliving the 'dating' game. As I said, I think he figured out pretty quickly that the hills are not always greener.

Chimamanda

The Mustard wrote: »

He may be telling the truth. Or he may be just bragging. Pump him for details and see if he cracks.

I've grilled him relentlessly for the past 6 weeks but either he's an incredible liar or he's genuinely sorry . I'm still can't say which

Chimamanda

sopretty wrote: »

Just to clarify, there was never the stereotypical 'I'm unhappy in my marriage' crap. He was upfront about the fact that he adored her and his family, and that it was what it was. It was company for him I suppose, and a chance at reliving the 'dating' game. As I said, I think he figured out pretty quickly that the hills are not always greener.

Thank you Yes I was looking for a male perspective , but yours is equally as valid and has reassured me that there is a slight chance that he is being honest and that our marriage is worth fighting for

Dingle_berry

Chimamanda wrote: »

My husband claims that he loves me dearly and has never stopped loving me even though he was having sex with someone else . Is it a load of bs or could he be telling me the truth ?

There's a difference between loving someone and being in love with someone.
There's also a kind of passive self destructive thing to cheating, or seeing what it would be like outside of the relationship.

Pat Mustard

Chimamanda wrote: »

I've grilled him relentlessly for the past 6 weeks but either he's an incredible liar or he's genuinely sorry . I'm still can't say which

I'm sorry, I was only joking when I posted that. Having reread your post, I deleted mine.

I can't imagine why anyone who loves their partner would upset them by exposing their own wrongdoing, simply to ease their own guilty conscience.

I can't imagine why he'd make it up either.

Beyond that, I don't know what to say.

sopretty

Chimamanda wrote: »

I've grilled him relentlessly for the past 6 weeks but either he's an incredible liar or he's genuinely sorry . I'm still can't say which

I'm sorry to hear this. I would never have engaged with this man, if there was even the smallest risk that his wife would find out. That was clear. It was pretty short lived, and to be honest, I think he got a lot out of his system in terms of apathy towards his life at the time. I think he realised just how much he loved his wife. Flirting and feeling attractive, was something he probably needed to experience again (he was in his early 40's). The other thing, which might upset you, is that he talked a lot to me about how he felt about life. I think he was not comfortable with telling his wife (possibly), that he was unhappy in his job. He was a fund manager and had guilt around that. But he felt tremendous pressure to over-perform financially and provide for his family. I am sure his wife would have been understanding if he had talked to her, in fact I think I suggested that he do so, but he felt under tremendous pressure to continue in his career, when really he would have preferred doing charity work or something.

What I'm trying to say is that YES, it is possible for a devoted and loving husband to have an affair.

karaokeman

A lot of people seem nice when you first meet them, but when you get to know them you realize how false they are, the smartest people can be fooled.

As a male I would never cheat, even if, god forbid I could cover it up completely. Likewise, I wouldn't trust a girl who cheated on her partner with me.

sopretty

I must add (whether you believe me or not), that I'm not proud of myself. Also to add, there was no swinging from chandeliers or other rampant raging terrific sex. There was occasional sex, but nothing exotic lol. Whenever there was sex, it was perfunctory and lacking in love obviously. I'm trying to help, but please tell me to F off if you feel that I'm not.

Jackal756

Chimamanda wrote: »

Hi guys . I'm looking for a male perspective here if you wouldn't mind .
I just wondered if a happily married man could ever consider/engage in an affair ?
Let's say you could get away with it and didn't think your wife would find out ?
Is it possible to love someone and be happily married yet get your kicks elsewhere too coz it's handed to you on a plate ?
My husband claims that he loves me dearly and has never stopped loving me even though he was having sex with someone else . Is it a load of bs or could he be telling me the truth ?

I think as the years go by even though you love somebody you can get stuck in a routine where people neglect the intimacy side of things and although you may love your spouse you may yearn for something thats missing from the relationship be it sex or even a shoulder to cry on
Sit down and encourage him to discuss his feelings with you

professore

Chimamanda wrote: »

Hi guys . I'm looking for a male perspective here if you wouldn't mind .
I just wondered if a happily married man could ever consider/engage in an affair ?
Let's say you could get away with it and didn't think your wife would find out ?
Is it possible to love someone and be happily married yet get your kicks elsewhere too coz it's handed to you on a plate ?
My husband claims that he loves me dearly and has never stopped loving me even though he was having sex with someone else . Is it a load of bs or could he be telling me the truth ?

As a man, I would say no. You have no respect for your wife and mother of your kids if you are happily married. If she's a bitch on wheels or sleeping around or whatever that's different.

I also don't get women like so pretty. Why would you knowingly have an affair with a married man? He used you honey, and told you what you wanted to hear. What about his wife?

professore

Jackal756 wrote: »

I think as the years go by even though you love somebody you can get stuck in a routine where people neglect the intimacy side of things and although you may love your spouse you may yearn for something thats missing from the relationship be it sex or even a shoulder to cry on
Sit down and encourage him to discuss his feelings with you

I would agree with this - but then you're not happily married. I'm not convinced you love your spouse in a situation like this or you would confront her about it and try to remedy it.

sopretty

professore wrote: »

As a man, I would say no. You have no respect for your wife and mother of your kids if you are happily married. If she's a bitch on wheels or sleeping around or whatever that's different.

I also don't get women like so pretty. Why would you knowingly have an affair with a married man? He used you honey, and told you what you wanted to hear. What about his wife?

You see I wouldn't have, only that he was upfront from the beginning about his devotion to his family. The fact that he was in a different country to his wife during the week, meant that I was sure she would never find out. I wouldn't hurt someone like that. He never led me to believe that it was anything other than company, flirting, a bit of a 'thrill' I guess. I wouldn't say he used me. It was never really much about sex. It was more flirtation and talking. I suppose in a way, I was like a counsellor he could talk to. Clearly, he'd have been better off actually paying for a counsellor lol, but while I'm not proud of it, I'm not ashamed of it either. He had absolute respect for his wife. He never ever once spoke badly of her. He adored his children also.

Tigger

professore wrote: »

I also don't get women like so pretty. Why would you knowingly have an affair with a married man? He used you honey, and told you what you wanted to hear. What about his wife?

she was 20 he was a mature wealthy man
20 is very young and inexperienced and i can see how she'd be lured in
its the man that owes his wife not the mistress

Engine No.9

Whether as a man or a woman, to claim that you are happily married when you're having an affair is pretty baseless.

I have no issue with cheating partners who say that they love their spouse because for the most part this is entirely true but there is that one issue that pushes them into the arms of another, and claiming you're "happily" married is disingenuous. You may be very happy with everything else except, as I say, that one thing.

In sopretty's case, it seems that the man who was having an affair with her was unhappy with his employmet situation and because he was mostly living away from home, he needed companionship. BTW, sopretty, I don't believe you did anything wrong. As a single 20something, you're free to pursue any man you like who's also of a like mind. IMO, he was the wrongdoer here.

To the OP, fine that your husband says he loves you, I genuinely believes he does but I think something drove him to this other woman. I'd encourage you both to sit down and try to figure out what it was. Maybe counselling if he's not of a mind to open up in a private dialogue. If this passes without getting to the root of the issue, I've no doubt there's a high likelihood of it happening again.

Jackal756

pajopearl wrote: »

Whether as a man or a woman, to claim that you are happily married when you're having an affair is pretty baseless.

I have no issue with cheating partners who say that they love their spouse because for the most part this is entirely true but there is that one issue that pushes them into the arms of another, and claiming you're "happily" married is disingenuous. You may be very happy with everything else except, as I say, that one thing.

In sopretty's case, it seems that the man who was having an affair with her was unhappy with his employmet situation and because he was mostly living away from home, he needed companionship. BTW, sopretty, I don't believe you did anything wrong. As a single 20something, you're free to pursue any man you like who's also of a like mind. IMO, he was the wrongdoer here.

To the OP, fine that your husband says he loves you, I genuinely believes he does but I think something drove him to this other woman. I'd encourage you both to sit down and try to figure out what it was. Maybe counselling if he's not of a mind to open up in a private dialogue. If this passes without getting to the root of the issue, I've no doubt there's a high likelihood of it happening again.

I'm not ganging up on anybody here but if you know someone is married your every bit as wrong as them there always seems to be double standards in situations like this where people make excuses for women whereas men are just a bunch of sex mad scumbags
It takes two to tango

NordieSteve

Honestly, in my opinion your relationship will never be the same. The element of distrust will always remain there and be the source of many future disagreements and you will be forever wrecking your head with worry. I can say this as someone that's been there.

Sorry OP, it's better to be realistic.

sopretty

Jackal756 wrote: »

I'm not ganging up on anybody here but if you know someone is married your every bit as wrong as them there always seems to be double standards in situations like ty

I have no problem holding my hands up and admitting that I was wrong.

In poetic justice, my partner cheated on me with a cheap w***e, in the two days after I had made another suicide attempt and told him to get the Fluff out as he kept trying to keep me alive.

This two bit yoke wore the whole tart lingerie and the works. Did a dance for him apparently. Dirty tramp lol.

Call it karma I guess!

PS - I am now quite stabilised on meds and not remotely suicidal.

Afroshack

Chimamanda wrote: »

Hi guys . I'm looking for a male perspective here if you wouldn't mind .
I just wondered if a happily married man could ever consider/engage in an affair ?
Let's say you could get away with it and didn't think your wife would find out ?
Is it possible to love someone and be happily married yet get your kicks elsewhere too coz it's handed to you on a plate ?
My husband claims that he loves me dearly and has never stopped loving me even though he was having sex with someone else . Is it a load of bs or could he be telling me the truth ?

This is the part that I'd be concerned about - were those his words or yours? If they are his I'd be worried that he is trying to put the blame on the other woman by trying to portray her as the sex-crazy irresponsible nympho, whilst he is the dearly devoted man who was led on and had it 'handed to him on a plate.' Now obviously I don't know him and I would never doubt his love for you, but if that was the way it came across to you, chances are he's not looking to take full responsibility for this. Additionally if they are your words and not his, perhaps you could be allowing the woman to shoulder a bit more of the blame than him? It takes two to tango after all, and it's important that everyone acknowledges both their responsibility in committing an affair.

Hope you do work things out though

wired117

How did you find out about affair?

the_syco

wired117 wrote: »

How did you find out about affair?

This is a fairly important question, imo.

sopretty

sopretty wrote: »

I have no problem holding my hands up and admitting that I was wrong.

In poetic justice, my partner cheated on me with a cheap w***e, in the two days after I had made another suicide attempt and told him to get the Fluff out as he kept trying to keep me alive.

This two bit yoke wore the whole tart lingerie and the works. Did a dance for him apparently. Dirty tramp lol.

Call it karma I guess!

PS - I am now quite stabilised on meds and not remotely suicidal.

I was on your side til you made that post.

How comes it's okay for you to sleep with a married man, but a woman sleeping with your partner is a 'dirty tramp'?

sopretty

Deleted User wrote: »

I was on your side til you made that post.

How comes it's okay for you to sleep with a married man, but a woman sleeping with your partner is a 'dirty tramp'?

Because it was sex for her, it was about a conquest (we used to be friends), it was about proving that she could have any man, proving that she could have my man. She lured him. In my case, I never ever lured him.

eviltwin

Stop making this about Sopretty, its not helping the OP. Fair play for admitting it Sopretty, not an easy thing to do.

OP I don't know what more to say but I would stop trying to analyse the why and the wherefore. I'm not sure that is helpful at the moment, it comes across like you are looking for a reason why he did it, something tangible that you can change or work on to prevent it happening again. Maybe he just wanted to experience sex with someone else.

The other woman has to take some of the blame but she is kinda secondary to all this now. He is married to you, he is the one with the responsibility towards you and your kids - not her.

I think you should look into counselling first just you on your own, your self esteem has taken a huge battering here and you need to build up your own sense of worth, having read this thread and the previous on on the PI pages you seem to be in a really low place at the moment. Then maybe you can work on your issues together.

professore

Tigger wrote: »

she was 20 he was a mature wealthy man
20 is very young and inexperienced and i can see how she'd be lured in
its the man that owes his wife not the mistress

Quite frankly that's bull****. 20 is old enough to know right from wrong. Not excusing the man but she knew what she was doing too.

sopretty

professore wrote: »

Quite frankly that's bull****. 20 is old enough to know right from wrong.

42 is old enough to know right from wrong. I was single my dear.

professore

sopretty wrote: »

42 is old enough to know right from wrong. I was single my dear.

So you feel what you did was right? I disagree. I agree with evil twin, this isn't about you.

Engine No.9

professore wrote: »

So you feel what you did was right? I disagree. I agree with evil twin, this isn't about you.

So stop making it about her.

Tigger

Deleted User wrote: »

I was on your side til you made that post.

How comes it's okay for you to sleep with a married man, but a woman sleeping with your partner is a 'dirty tramp'?

cos perspective is perception

Tigger

professore wrote: »

Quite frankly that's bull****. 20 is old enough to know right from wrong. Not excusing the man but she knew what she was doing too.

what age are you ? i'm only wondering because i rember thinking 20 was a grown up and now i see 20 year olds and i see something different
i'm 39

professore

Tigger wrote: »

what age are you ? i'm only wondering because i rember thinking 20 was a grown up and now i see 20 year olds and i see something different
i'm 39

I'm 42. I know plenty of 42 year olds who never grew up and 18 year olds who are adults. Takes all sorts.

professore

Some people seem to have an ability to concoct a view of the world that bears no resemblance to reality but suits whatever fantasy they are entertaining at the moment regardless of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Chimamanda

Afroshack wrote: »

This is the part that I'd be concerned about - were those his words or yours? If they are his I'd be worried that he is trying to put the blame on the other woman by trying to portray her as the sex-crazy irresponsible nympho, whilst he is the dearly devoted man who was led on and had it 'handed to him on a plate.' Now obviously I don't know him and I would never doubt his love for you, but if that was the way it came across to you, chances are he's not looking to take full responsibility for this. Additionally if they are your words and not his, perhaps you could be allowing the woman to shoulder a bit more of the blame than him? It takes two to tango after all, and it's important that everyone acknowledges both their responsibility in committing an affair.

Hope you do work things out though

They are my words . I found out about the affair (which happened 4 years ago ) several weeks ago as she sent him a text reminiscing about a certain 'date' they'd had . She's a work colleague of his . I confronted her when I found out and she told me that she was very jealous of me . She always fancied him and hated they way he constantly went on and on about how much he loved me and our kids , so she set out to try and ruin our marriage . She said she realised quite early on that he was never going to leave me and that the affair 'fizzled out' . He has taken full responsibility for his actions . He said he was 'flattered' by all the attention he was getting and just didn't think about how this could affect me or us .
I think he was caught up in the whole ego massage trap and thought with the part of his anatomy that doesn't contain his brain !
You know , I can specifically remember back to that period in our relationship and remember it as a particularly happy time (bizarre isn't it ?) We've always had a great marriage , but the last four and half half years have been particularly good . Maybe this affair was a wake up call for him ? I don't know . And I don't know if our marriage will survive , but I do know that it's worth fighting to save .
I really really appreciate all of your support , advice and honesty guys XXX Thanks.

Soon To Be Glue

OP - two questions that i think are important.
(1) Could you clarify affair - I would consider an affair to be ongoing/repeated. A single incidence of infidelity would not be an affair
(2) How did you find out about "affair"?

For item 1 - if it was an affair, then no, i do not think a happily married man would have an affair. If it was a single incidence, then it would need a bit more information, but i think a happily married man would be tempted and it becomes more a case of how they are feeling at that moment in time (is there stress at home, stress at work, etc). Any kind of sexual attention is flattering and enjoyable regardless of whether you are happily married or not but it becoming more than innocent flirtation/banter/etc, it largely depends on the current state of the person as to how far it goes.

As others have said before me, it is possible that he does love you but if he has had an affair, i would said he is not happily married. Why he is unhappy is a different story (may have nothing to do with you or his family but where he is in life). If you want to recover from this and move forward an open and honest discussion will need to be had between him and you. At the end of this, you will have to review and decide can you move forward and forgive/understand what has happened.

sopretty

For the record, you can be happily married, but unhappy with other aspects of your life. Your satisfaction with your marriage is not changed. I think the man in my case, respected and loved his wife too much to worry her about his concerns financially. He had no financial concerns, only a pressure he put on himself to maintain a particular lifestyle for his wife and children.

thebullkf

Chimamanda wrote: »

They are my words . I found out about the affair (which happened 4 years ago ) several weeks ago as she sent him a text reminiscing about a certain 'date' they'd had . She's a work colleague of his . I confronted her when I found out and she told me that she was very jealous of me . She always fancied him and hated they way he constantly went on and on about how much he loved me and our kids , so she set out to try and ruin our marriage . She said she realised quite early on that he was never going to leave me and that the affair 'fizzled out' . He has taken full responsibility for his actions . He said he was 'flattered' by all the attention he was getting and just didn't think about how this could affect me or us .
I think he was caught up in the whole ego massage trap and thought with the part of his anatomy that doesn't contain his brain !
You know , I can specifically remember back to that period in our relationship and remember it as a particularly happy time (bizarre isn't it ?) We've always had a great marriage , but the last four and half half years have been particularly good . Maybe this affair was a wake up call for him ? I don't know . And I don't know if our marriage will survive , but I do know that it's worth fighting to save .
I really really appreciate all of your support , advice and honesty guys XXX Thanks.

Why were you reading texts on his phone?

sopretty

Can I also add op, that while I was never jealous of his wife, I actually hoped to find a man in the future who would adore me and speak so lovingly and highly of me as he did. I know that sounds bizarre. But that was the reality.

thebullkf

So pretty, can you just leave this thread It's not about you. Start your own thread. No offence meant.

sopretty

thebullkf wrote: »

So pretty, can you just leave this thread It's not about you. Start your own thread. No offence meant.

No problem. Consider me gone.

Engine No.9

OP, there's actually a deeper issue here in that he kept it a secret for 4 and a half years. Maybe the fact you're marriage has never been better in all this time is a result of his guilt and an attempt to "cover his tracks" so to speak.

eviltwin

You were just (un)lucky you found out, it doesn't seem as though he would have ever told you about it. Only for picking up the phone you would be none the wiser. I would be suspicious of that and wondering if this is a first offence or if he had done it before or since with someone else. If you can manage to hide an affair and get away with it, its got to give you some bravado that you can do it again.

singledad80

I be honest I was very happily married to my wife I loved her with all my heart, I loved been part of a family our family but we had the same problem over the years when he came to one of our sons it finally got to me and I ended up having affair on her because another women listen to my problems when I eventually came home a few months later my wife had falling out of love with me and I lost every thing that really was important to me. So yes you can and I wish I can say it was drink but truth be told it came down to just some actually listen to me.

Greendiamond

I don't think it's a question of love. It's a question of respect. A husband who has an affair is disrespecting his wife. He may still love her but he is being selfish and disrespectful. I don't buy 'excuses' for an affair. If you are having a problem be it a work problem, a mid life crisis , boredom etc then you discuss that with your wife. If you find it difficult to discuss then write a letter or go see a counsellor. Having an affair is not the appropriate response to a problem.
As for handing it on a plate..... all a husband has to do is say firmly 'I am not interested. I am married. Leave me alone ' and that's the end of it.

For me there would be no recovering from an affair. The trust would be gone. It would nearly be worse if it happened during a happy period during a marriage.
Having said that many marriages do recover but for me it would be a deal breaker.

Chimamanda

singledad80 wrote: »

I be honest I was very happily married to my wife I loved her with all my heart, I loved been part of a family our family but we had the same problem over the years when he came to one of our sons it finally got to me and I ended up having affair on her because another women listen to my problems when I eventually came home a few months later my wife had falling out of love with me and I lost every thing that really was important to me. So yes you can and I wish I can say it was drink but truth be told it came down to just some actually listen to me.

Singledad , I'm sorry to hear that You sound like you really , genuinely regret your affair and that you wish you could turn back the clock In my heart I feel that my husband does too and that's why I am willing to give it a try .

Chimamanda

Greendiamond wrote: »

I don't think it's a question of love. It's a question of respect. A husband who has an affair is disrespecting his wife. He may still love her but he is being selfish and disrespectful. I don't buy 'excuses' for an affair. If you are having a problem be it a work problem, a mid life crisis , boredom etc then you discuss that with your wife. If you find it difficult to discuss then write a letter or go see a counsellor. Having an affair is not the appropriate response to a problem.
As for handing it on a plate..... all a husband has to do is say firmly 'I am not interested. I am married. Leave me alone ' and that's the end of it.

For me there would be no recovering from an affair. The trust would be gone. It would nearly be worse if it happened during a happy period during a marriage.
Having said that many marriages do recover but for me it would be a deal breaker.

Thank you Greendiamond . Yes , if I'm being honest , what's possibly hurting me the most is the fact that he didn't come to me to talk about whatever was bothering him (but he still insists that nothing was bothering him !!) And yes , there is no excuse for what he did , but there can be forgiveness . I'd certainly hope that he could forgive me and stand by me if I did something wrong ( and I believe he would ) . It is not going to be easy and I'm not sure if I can ever trust him again , but I will try because it's worth fighting for .

MagicMarker

pajopearl wrote: »

BTW, sopretty, I don't believe you did anything wrong. As a single 20something, you're free to pursue any man you like who's also of a like mind. IMO, he was the wrongdoer here.

I can't agree with this at all, it's a total cop out. If someone knowingly pursues a sexual relationship with someone who is married with kids, then they absolutely are doing something wrong. We all make choices, and while sopretty didn't take any vows in this case and is technically free to be with who she wants, she chose to be the "other woman". She chose to be the one who could have and might yet still play a bit part in the breakup of a family, and the heartache of an innocent wife and children.

Sopretty knows herself that what she did was wrong, otherwise she wouldn't have ended it out of guilt.

Engine No.9

MagicMarker wrote: »

she chose to be the "other woman".

Here's the problem with Irish society today with this issue. She didn't choose to be the "Other Woman", she just happened to be a woman who was sexually attracted to a man who happened to be married. It happens everyday, most choose to ignore it, others don't. Her moral centre made her run and that was her decision, but it was the man in this scenario who had the responsibility to his family. This girl has no responsibility, NO RESPONSIBILITY to the man's family.

In the case of the OP, which is why we're here let's not forget, that woman did have a responsibility towards the OP and her kids as when.the OP confronted her, she admitted that she was jealous and wanted to rip her life apart. Very very different set of circumstances and motivations.

I still think the crux of this matter rests on the fact that the OPs I husband kept this a secret for 4 and a half years giving rise to the question what else is he hiding and what he will hide in the future and get away with for another significant amount of time!?

MagicMarker

pajopearl wrote: »

Here's the problem with Irish society today with this issue. She didn't choose to be the "Other Woman", she just happened to be a woman who was sexually attracted to a man who happened to be married. It happens everyday, most choose to ignore it, others don't. Her moral centre made her run and that was her decision, but it was the man in this scenario who had the responsibility to his family. This girl has no responsibility, NO RESPONSIBILITY to the man's family.

In the case of the OP, which is why we're here let's not forget, that woman did have a responsibility towards the OP and her kids as when.the OP confronted her, she admitted that she was jealous and wanted to rip her life apart. Very very different set of circumstances and motivations.

So in one scenario the other woman had 'NO RESPONSIBILITY', but in the other scenario she did? That's some double standard you have right there.

Yes, different circumstances and motivations, one did it out of jealousy, the the other seems to have done it simply because the guy was rich. Both equally abhorrent to me, and carry the same responsibility.