Is packaged ham REALLY that bad?

Akrasia

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

People joke, but we used to have shocking rates of stomach cancer in this country. There were no fridges in homes, most meats were heavily salted to preserve them. When fridges made an appearance, stomach cancer became very rare.

I don't know if it's causation or not, but I'm sure as hell not taking the chance.

Might also have been the gallons of Poitin people were horsing into themselves every night

Akrasia

ezra_pound wrote: »

Isn't all ham processed?

Yeah. A lot (possibly all?) of the deli ham that you presume is a from a full joint of ham, is actually reformed ham that's no different to the stuff in the packets (some suppliers are higher quality than others)

mickman

Akrasia wrote: »

And what 'toxins' are these?

Nitrates

El_Dangeroso

Akrasia wrote: »

Might also have been the gallons of Poitin people were horsing into themselves every night

Not likely considering it affected women and men equally, and women did not drink as much as men in those times if at all.

Orla K

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

As with anything, the dose makes the poison.

If it's one ham and cheese toastie a week (btw, shop-bought bread and processed cheese aren't super healthy either) and you're otherwise in good health and a healthy weight I wouldn't let it bother you.

But if it's everyday then maybe not. From the most conservative estimates of observational studies, 50g a day of processed meat is the limit, but that could be that people who eat a lot of processed meat don't have great diets to begin with.

Fresh meat is best though, so get your meat needs from fresh wherever possible and don't sweat the odd slice of ham. (fresh everything else is also a good rule of thumb!)

You can probably ignore all posts after this one, it's mostly just 'I eat ham and I haven't died yet' or 'that s**t will give you cancer' A lot of things just fall into a grey area of healthy.

Orla K

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Not likely considering it affected women and men equally, and women did not drink as much as men in those times if at all.

About what year did fridges come into Ireland?

I'm looking after my granny today and I have to ask her about this.
She's also told me before that she used to have to cure the meat when she was young and she was saying that what was used to cure it later turned out to be pretty toxic stuff. Also she was saying that women didn't really drink, few women would even go into pubs, they'd be separate from the men and all they'd be served was sherry. To be even tipsy as a woman was a disgrace.

Amazingfun

mickman wrote: »

Nitrates

http://chriskresser.com/the-nitrate-and-nitrite-myth-another-reason-not-to-fear-bacon

The belief that nitrates and nitrates cause serious health problems has been entrenched in popular consciousness and media. Watch this video clip to see Steven Colbert explain how the coming bacon shortage will prolong our lives thanks to reduced nitrates in our diets.

In fact, the study that originally connected nitrates with cancer risk and caused the scare in the first place has since been discredited after being subjected to a peer review. There have been major reviews of the scientific literature that found no link between nitrates or nitrites and human cancers, or even evidence to suggest that they may be carcinogenic. Further, recent research suggests that nitrates and nitrites may not only be harmless, they may be beneficial, especially for immunity and heart health.

jester77

Packaged ham is reformed ham and no where near as good as a proper slice of ham and usually full of a lot of crap. Next time you are eating a slice, hold it up against the light and you will see where it has been reprocessed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeEtO1wLS-k

moc moc a moc

mickman wrote: »

Nitrates

Right, you're going to have to start providing sources for these claims if you want anybody to take you seriously. You've made three or four unsubstantiated claims on this thread and so far, all it looks like you're doing at the moment is spewing FUD and arguing for the sake of it.

(Personally, the fact that you thought a single slice of ham could possibly contain 100 calories is enough to dismiss you as someone who has no idea what they're talking about)

Akrasia

mickman wrote: »

Nitrates

First of all, there are more Nitrates/Nitrites in vegetables than there are in processed meats,
Secondly, Nitrates/Nitrites do not cause harm to the human body and are in fact essential for a healthy digestion

Nitrates don't persist in your body. Nitrates are produced naturally in your own body, are present in your saliva in greater quantities than in any processed meat, and excess nitrates are urinated out as a normal waste product.
http://healthworkscollective.com/drterrysimpson/81016/are-nitrates-or-nitrites-bad-not-really

ford2600

I eat a lot of meat.

I come from a farming background and IMHO it is hard not to get quality Irish beef/lamb, as it is for most part grass fed and outside most of the year. Doesn't need to be organic.

As someone who has been in pig farms the contrast is stark
* 100% of their life is indoors
* They stand, lie on concrete slats over tanks of their own waste all day every day
* temperature is kept artifically high
* They eat only concentrate
* They are fed antibiotics to fight disease

It's pretty ****e meat to start with processed or not. Conditions are similar to chicken "farming"

Both might be healthy food choices but I really doubt it

Dotcomdolly

I don't buy the likes of Denny etc but I do eat prosciutto ham as the ingredients list is way shorter.

mickman

ford2600 wrote: »

I eat a lot of meat.

I come from a farming background and IMHO it is hard not to get quality Irish beef/lamb, as it is for most part grass fed and outside most of the year. Doesn't need to be organic.

As someone who has been in pig farms the contrast is stark
* 100% of their life is indoors
* They stand, lie on concrete slats over tanks of their own waste all day every day
* temperature is kept artifically high
* They eat only concentrate
* They are fed antibiotics to fight disease

It's pretty ****e meat to start with processed or not. Conditions are similar to chicken "farming"

Both might be healthy food choices but I really doubt it

Yes, Irish beef is very good

TimeToShine

I'd be more worried about the white bread and cheese than the ham but that's just me!

runawaybishop

People spend too much time worrying. A ham and cheese sandwich on white would be fairly far down on my list of "things that might kill me I need to worry about".

purplecow1977

runawaybishop wrote: »

People spend too much time worrying. A ham and cheese sandwich on white would be fairly far down on my list of "things that might kill me I need to worry about".

Yeah, like that galaxy bar I ate yesterday! :P

Alf Veedersane

runawaybishop wrote: »

People spend too much time worrying. A ham and cheese sandwich on white would be fairly far down on my list of "things that might kill me I need to worry about".

Ham + cheese + white bread = Cancer + ebola + Aids.

mufcboy1999

Some of the salt content in packaged ham's is ridiculous too, for anyone watching their sodium intake stay away from it.

dor843088

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Ham + cheese + white bread = Cancer + ebola + Aids.

Washed down with a coke for extra diabetes.

El_Dangeroso

Orla K wrote: »

About what year did fridges come into Ireland?

I'm looking after my granny today and I have to ask her about this.
She's also told me before that she used to have to cure the meat when she was young and she was saying that what was used to cure it later turned out to be pretty toxic stuff. Also she was saying that women didn't really drink, few women would even go into pubs, they'd be separate from the men and all they'd be served was sherry. To be even tipsy as a woman was a disgrace.

I'm guessing very late 60's for the well off, 70's for everyone else.

Fridges came with their own set of problems however, the bacteria that purportedly causes crohns disease grows very well at fridge temps. So crohns was very rare prior to the advent of refrigeration.

Swings and roundabouts.

dor843088

New thread are fridges really that bad ?

El_Dangeroso

dor843088 wrote: »

New thread are fridges really that bad ?

They are worse than hitler.

jane82

Sure its presses and cupboards you wanna watch out for.
In every kitchen food cupboard there is a whole tub of salt.
A whole tub.

dor843088

jane82 wrote: »

Sure its presses and cupboards you wanna watch out for.
In every kitchen food cupboard there is a whole tub of salt.
A whole tub.

I just hope it's a bpa free tub .

Alf Veedersane

I once heard of a press that had salt and sugar in it.

I didn't ask if a full inventory showed a tub of lard as well because I was in shock.

Ann Landers

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Fridges came with their own set of problems however, the bacteria that purportedly causes crohns disease grows very well at fridge temps. So crohns was very rare prior to the advent of refrigeration.

Which is bacteria is that? AFAIK, there is still a lot of uncertainty about what causes Crohn's. I'm not sure refrigeration has anything to do with Crohn's. There might be a correlation and, well, we all know the rest.

We know that Crohn's is very much a first world illness, especially prevalent in industrialised areas. There are different theories about why this is. Helminthic therapy is something being mooted, the lack of worms may unbalance the microbiological profile of the gut. Autoimmunity, genetic factors etc.

El_Dangeroso

Ann Landers wrote: »

Which is bacteria is that? AFAIK, there is still a lot of uncertainty about what causes Crohn's. I'm not sure refrigeration has anything to do with Crohn's. There might be a correlation and, well, we all know the rest.

We know that Crohn's is very much a first world illness, especially prevalent in industrialised areas. There are different theories about why this is. Helminthic therapy is something being mooted, the lack of worms may unbalance the microbiological profile of the gut. Autoimmunity, genetic factors etc.

There is a lot of uncertainty, hence 'purportedly'. It's a new hypothesis, but probably the most compelling one:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/4849.php

also:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19177167

But since we're not all getting it, I don't doubt genetic predisposition and/or underlying dysbiosis of some sort also plays a role.

It's a fecker of a disease either way. Looking forward to more research on stem-cell therapy, that seems to be getting amazing rates of remission in early trials.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/804570

metamorphosis

Some of the claims in this thread will probably lower your life expectancy that eating actual ham ...

Anyway, like most things ... a bit here and there won't do harm.

Personally, not a massive ham fan, gimme out the beef instead

Ann Landers

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

There is a lot of uncertainty, hence 'purportedly'.

This just threw me:

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

So crohns was very rare prior to the advent of refrigeration.

For me, personally, I'd be leaning towards the dysbiosis idea.

The psychrophilic bacteria mentioned can be eliminated by keeping the fridge closer to zero than 4 degrees, though that can't always be monitored as many foods go into the freeze at much higher than 4 degrees which affect the fridge temp for a while, as can opening and closing the door often.

El_Dangeroso

Ann Landers wrote: »

For me, personally, I'd be leaning towards the dysbiosis idea.

Yep, it's complex that's for sure, but the evidence for refrigeration is pretty strong, independent of other factors which would definitely contribute.