Chivalry/Gentlemans' Etiquette

beano345

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The Titanic was more a case of rich people first and screw the rest of you. No chivalry there unless you are looking at a really romantic image of the disaster.

To say chivalry is dead due to the Costa Concordia doesn't make sense as 32 people died out of 4,000 odd. Were all the victims women I might agree with you but that wasn't the case. That said do you not think 'women and children first' mentality devalues men as human beings?

I meant survival in terms of gender,it was witnessed that many lifeboat s went to sea three quartets full and that three men who disobeyed the women and children first rule and tried to clamber aboard were shot:

http://www.icyousee.org/titanic.html

From the Costa Concordia there was many reports from survivors that men pushed past women and children to escape.

Do I think the women and children first mentality devalues men?...course I do,male disposability.

MagicMarker

I don't think I've ever given up my seat on the bus. Though I would for a pregnant woman, or an elderly person if I thought they'd fall on top of me during a sharp turn.

OldRio wrote: »

Open a car door. Take a coat. Pull a chair from under a table to allow lady to sit. Stand when lady sits at table. Serve lady first.

All nonsense.

Morf

I tend to make an effort to greet middle-aged and older people in passing when out and about. I generally get a positive response and some seem very pleased with a cheerful "hello/lovely day".

I feel far more apprehensive about doing the same with similarly aged peers or younger. I'm not as sure I'll get a positive/any response. Partly my own issue, not blanket condemning the youth of today.

Anyone else in my line of thinking? With earphones it becomes pointless a lot of the time anyway.

Are there any recently evolved courtesies that you find yourself doing? Helping an older person at a self-service check-out for example.

Pawwed Rig

beano345 wrote: »

I meant survival in terms of gender,it was witnessed that many lifeboat s went to sea three quartets full and that three men who disobeyed the women and children first rule and tried to clamber aboard were shot:

Ok then the main difference seems to be that on the Titanic there were homicidal maniacs willing to shoot poor souls, who were most likely in a blind panic, to satisfy their own personal value system whereas on the Costa Concordia these lunatics were no longer present. That is progress I would have thought.

It is unfair to judge people by their actions in an extreme situation like the prospect of drowning where instinct takes over. I don't think that has anything to do woth chivalry. Neither do I think it was a case of women and children standing clamly by while the crazed men bashed their way through. Blind panic most probably sezed evverybody where there was a mad scramble for safety.

Seriously?

Personally I hope to god that chivalry is well and truly dead, because when you look at it. All it is is an attempt to establish a societal norm that says as a man your safety and well-being comes second to a woman’s.

You’ll often see where the topic is discussed in public that people will attack those men who oppose it by implying that because they reject it they must therefore treat their wives/partners, family badly.

But chivalry is really about how men are meant to treat female strangers, so this a red-herring to try and shame you back into your box.

The way to treat women is to treat them exactly as you would treat a male stranger.

OldRio

MagicMarker wrote: »

All nonsense.

Thanks for that well reasoned response to my post. I will go away and ponder those telling and salient points.

jackofalltrades

OldRio wrote: »

I do not put a coat on a man but i do put a coat on a lady. Does that infer the lady is incapable? I would say no. The lady smiles and says thank you.
No big deal for either party involved but a smile has been produced. A sense of 'niceness' for want of a better word.
.

And would you still do it if the lady didn't produce a smile? Is this an essential part of the interaction?

Why would you not help a man in a similar situation? Why is it just women that you help?

Just trying to get a full understanding of what motivates you in these scenarios.

OldRio

jackofalltrades wrote: »

And would you still do it if the lady didn't produce a smile? Is this an essential part of the interaction?

Why would you not help a man in a similar situation? Why is it just women that you help?

Just trying to get a full understanding of what motivates you in these scenarios.

If the woman did not like what I was doing I would stop. Obviously.

Holding a jacket and putting it on a woman is something I would do automatically. Never thought of helping a man into a jacket unless the man was struggling.

Pawwed Rig

MagicMarker wrote: »

All nonsense.

Mod note - this post falls below the standard we expect in TGC. Please read the charter for reference.

OldRio wrote: »

Thanks for that well reasoned response to my post. I will go away and ponder those telling and salient points.

If you have a problem with a post report it as normal.

batistuta9

Morf wrote: »

My understanding is that it goes way back to times where streets were filthy and nearer the road more likely to get splashed with whatever unpleasantness in the road. Speculating really to be honest.

is it not from roman times, when they threw rubbish from the windows to the street and the person on the inside was less likely to get hit by it

Morf

batistuta9 wrote: »

is it not from roman times, when they threw rubbish from the windows to the street and the person on the inside was less likely to get hit by it

Could well be. I was mostly pulling a theory out of thin air.

pwurple

beano345 wrote: »

Do I think the women and children first mentality devalues men?...course I do,male disposability.

I don't think it quite sets men as disposable... More that men protect primarily their own children and women, as the children are the carrier of their genes into the next generation, and women were traditionally the children's carers. Most men place a huge value on their own families above all else, which is fairly sensible in the great scheme of things. It extended over time to my brother's children and wife, my neighbour's children and wife, my fellow countryman's children and wives, and so on. -> Extend that same sense of protection to absolutely everyone possible and you get chivalry. Man is setting himself as The Protector, not as disposable.

Roadtoad

Cars with central locking, then remote central locking took the fun out of opening a car door for a lady. My present car doesn't even have a key hole on the guest side.

Lou.m

Morf wrote: »

There are the long-held expectations of men of good character but which ones still apply today?

For example my mother a couple of years ago let me know if was good manners if walking with a lady to be on the side of the path nearest the road or to allow a lady the side away from the road when passing if possible.

I'm just curious what other kinds of acts like this still apply in modern society. I will hold doors for a lady or less physically capable person but I don't universally expect a pleasant acknowledgement.

Leaving out gender equality as it would apply to disabled or elderly or any person who could benefit from some kind of assistance or courteous gesture what would these cover?

I'd like to point out that it's not limited to men to have this expectation on them but historically it has been in place.

How to be a gentleman.

A gentlemen never tells .

Is honorable to his word to both men and women.

Being a gentleman is not simply behavior to women but to men too.

He is considerate of those around him and their feelings and makes an effort to be agreeable most of the time.

No gentleman engages in things like Twitter fights or passive-aggressive Facebook statuses. It’s just not classy.

Own and be able to sufficiently rock at least one suit.

Do your best not to put others (either men or women)down in order to elevate yourself, it reeks of the people who categorize men by their Greek letter status.


Call your parents, even if you have to set up a Google calendar reminder to get yourself to do this.


Be up-front about your finances, because it’s unfair for anyone to believe in the outdated gender roles of “the man should pay for everything.” As long as you’re working hard and trying your best, you deserve to be honest. A lady will admire you for it.

Not paying for anything does not mean you treat the lady in question as anything less than your fathers generation. You just do it in a different way.

Relate to people on an individual basis. You are you and they are them.

Learn how to dance, at least a bit. And if you can't still give it a go on the dance floor it's all about having fun.

Don’t be disdainful of selfies, guys have just as much a right to look and feel good about themselves as anyone else. If you want a selfie, take a selfie! Just don’t be a dick about other people who like to do it, too. Just don't take the piss with it.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Or others. But not too soft either.

Be compassionate, and know that you are allowed to experience the full range of human emotion. Where the gentleman of our grandparents’ generation might have prided himself on keeping all of his feelings in check for fear of seeming ‘feminine,’ a real gentleman knows that the best thing about him is his ability to be kind and empathetic.

Know that you are not disposable you are one of a kind! And good kind people are always very precious.

DoctorEdgeWild

Lou.m wrote: »

How to be a gentleman.

A gentlemen never tells .

Is honorable to his word to both men and women.

Being a gentleman is not simply behavior to women but to men too.

He is considerate of those around him and their feelings and makes an effort to be agreeable most of the time.

No gentleman engages in things like Twitter fights or passive-aggressive Facebook statuses. It’s just not classy.

Own and be able to sufficiently rock at least one suit.

Do your best not to put others (either men or women)down in order to elevate yourself, it reeks of the people who categorize men by their Greek letter status.


Call your parents, even if you have to set up a Google calendar reminder to get yourself to do this.


Be up-front about your finances, because it’s unfair for anyone to believe in the outdated gender roles of “the man should pay for everything.” As long as you’re working hard and trying your best, you deserve to be honest. A lady will admire you for it.

Not paying for anything does not mean you treat the lady in question as anything less than your fathers generation. You just do it in a different way.

Relate to people on an individual basis. You are you and they are them.

Learn how to dance, at least a bit. And if you can't still give it a go on the dance floor it's all about having fun.

Don’t be disdainful of selfies, guys have just as much a right to look and feel good about themselves as anyone else. If you want a selfie, take a selfie! Just don’t be a dick about other people who like to do it, too. Just don't take the piss with it.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Or others. But not too soft either.

Be compassionate, and know that you are allowed to experience the full range of human emotion. Where the gentleman of our grandparents’ generation might have prided himself on keeping all of his feelings in check for fear of seeming ‘feminine,’ a real gentleman knows that the best thing about him is his ability to be kind and empathetic.

Know that you are not disposable you are one of a kind! And good kind people are always very precious.

If wearing a suit, dancing and 'selfies' are par for the course of the gentleman, then count me out. I'll stick to being whatever I am currently.

Dravokivich

Lou.M, that reads like something I'd expect to see in Woman's Way.

DoctorEdgeWild

Dravokivich wrote: »

Lou.M, that reads like something I'd expect to see in Woman's Way.

"Lyk dis status if ur man is a gentleman and treets u lyk his princess." etc.


I suppose the idea of what it is to be a gentleman or a lady changes as time passes. Something that seems the norm today may be seen as very old fashioned in a decade or two.

Morf

I'll be a man in the way that suits me best without intentionally setting out to upset/offend others in an unwarranted/non-constructive fashion and I may choose to do courtesies when I feel the act will give me satisfaction or the response from the recipient will.

Sums it up really.

Lou.m

Dravokivich wrote: »

Lou.M, that reads like something I'd expect to see in Woman's Way.

I wouldn't have a clue. I don't read those magazines much.

You must read a lot of Woman's way to be so familiar with it.

I am sure if you read it then it is a superior publication of course.

Corvo

Lou.m wrote: »

How to be a gentleman.

A gentlemen never tells .

Is honorable to his word to both men and women.

Being a gentleman is not simply behavior to women but to men too.

He is considerate of those around him and their feelings and makes an effort to be agreeable most of the time.

No gentleman engages in things like Twitter fights or passive-aggressive Facebook statuses. It’s just not classy.

Own and be able to sufficiently rock at least one suit.

Do your best not to put others (either men or women)down in order to elevate yourself, it reeks of the people who categorize men by their Greek letter status.


Call your parents, even if you have to set up a Google calendar reminder to get yourself to do this.


Be up-front about your finances, because it’s unfair for anyone to believe in the outdated gender roles of “the man should pay for everything.” As long as you’re working hard and trying your best, you deserve to be honest. A lady will admire you for it.

Not paying for anything does not mean you treat the lady in question as anything less than your fathers generation. You just do it in a different way.

Relate to people on an individual basis. You are you and they are them.

Learn how to dance, at least a bit. And if you can't still give it a go on the dance floor it's all about having fun.

Don’t be disdainful of selfies, guys have just as much a right to look and feel good about themselves as anyone else. If you want a selfie, take a selfie! Just don’t be a dick about other people who like to do it, too. Just don't take the piss with it.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Or others. But not too soft either.

Be compassionate, and know that you are allowed to experience the full range of human emotion. Where the gentleman of our grandparents’ generation might have prided himself on keeping all of his feelings in check for fear of seeming ‘feminine,’ a real gentleman knows that the best thing about him is his ability to be kind and empathetic.

Know that you are not disposable you are one of a kind! And good kind people are always very precious.

When did Twitter, Facebook and "Selfies" become part of being a gentleman?

beano345

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

"Lyk dis status if ur man is a gentleman and treets u lyk his princess." etc.


I suppose the idea of what it is to be a gentleman or a lady changes as time passes. Something that seems the norm today may be seen as very old fashioned in a decade or two.

I actually have to laugh at the likes of them statuses women put up " calls you beautiful instead of hot" " gives you his coat when you say your cold" and feel sorry for any young fella reading it and trying to be that way cause most of the time you know were it will get them? Yup you guessed it....steamrolled!

Lou.m

You guys are not getting it.

It is not about women.

It is about being an honorable man in his own right that is what chivalry is.

Real men are polite to women because they are not trying to get anything out of it.

They are men other men trust because that is part of their code.

Chivalry is not self serving. Quite the opposite.

It is the art of offering service to other without being a doormat.

jackofalltrades

Lou.m wrote: »

You guys are not getting it.

It is not about women.

I've never heard someone refer to chivalry other than in the context of a man's behaviour towards a woman.

It is about being an honorable man in his own right that is what chivalry is.

I would describe that as being a Gentleman.

Chivalry is not self serving. Quite the opposite.

There does seem to be a reward attached to the behaviour.
A man helps out a lady with a task and she thanks him or gives him a smile.
Women could potentially look more favourably on a man who offers them special treatment, thus increasing a man's chances of getting into a relationship with these women.

A man not engaging in chivalrous behaviour e.g. paying for the a date, providing a jacket when a woman is cold, even though he would end up cold instead, could see himself losing out to men who engage in this behaviour.

beano345

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I've never heard someone refer to chivalry other than in the context of a man's behaviour towards a woman.
I would describe that as being a Gentleman.


There does seem to be a reward attached to the behaviour.
A man helps out a lady with a task and she thanks him or gives him a smile.
Women could potentially look more favourably on a man who offers them special treatment, thus increasing a man's chances of getting into a relationship with these women.

A man not engaging in chivalrous behaviour e.g. paying for the a date, providing a jacket when a woman is cold, even though he would end up cold instead, could see himself losing out to men who engage in this behaviour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0WeiwaFKdI

Morf

jackofalltrades wrote: »

There does seem to be a reward attached to the behaviour.
A man helps out a lady with a task and she thanks him or gives him a smile.
Women could potentially look more favourably on a man who offers them special treatment, thus increasing a man's chances of getting into a relationship with these women.

There aren't selfless acts.

This video represents it very well.

Not in it for sexual gratification but a smile from a pretty girl or a sincere thank you can be the highlight of a chap's day too.

Lou.m

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I've never heard someone refer to chivalry other than in the context of a man's behaviour towards a woman.
I would describe that as being a Gentleman.


There does seem to be a reward attached to the behaviour.
A man helps out a lady with a task and she thanks him or gives him a smile.
Women could potentially look more favourably on a man who offers them special treatment, thus increasing a man's chances of getting into a relationship with these women.

A man not engaging in chivalrous behaviour e.g. paying for the a date, providing a jacket when a woman is cold, even though he would end up cold instead, could see himself losing out to men who engage in this behaviour.

Chivalry

Chivalry, or the chivalric code, is a code of conduct associated with the medieval institution of knighthood. Chivalry arose from an idealized German custom. It developed first in the north of France among horse soldiers who served in Charlemagne′s heavy cavalry. It was originally conceived of as an aristocratic warrior code — the term derives from the French term chevalerie, meaning horse soldiery — involving gallantry, individual training, and service to others.

It was actually to do with the rules of warfar. Knights took other knights prisoner rather than kill them.

It was to prevent the knighthood from descending into anarchy and preserve social cohesion when at the time there was a general lack of law.

It was originally to do with how soldiers should behave to each other in medieval times.

The term chivalry in origin has the meaning "horsemanship", formed in Old French in the 11th century from chevalier "horseman; knight.

he meaning of the term evolved over time, from the original concrete military meaning "status or fee associated with military follower owning a war horse" or "a group of mounted knights" to the ideal of the Christian warrior ethos.

Gautier tries to give a "popular summary" of what he proposes was the "ancient code of chivalry" of the 11th and 12th centuries, viz. the military ethos of the crusades which would evolve into the late medieval notion of chivalry. Gautier's "commandments" are:

Believe the Church's teachings and observe all the Church's directions.

Defend the Church.

Respect and defend all weaknesses.

Love your country.

Show no mercy to the Infidel. Do not hesitate to make war with them.

Perform all your feudal duties as long as they do not conflict with the laws
of God.

Never lie or go back on one's word.

Be generous to everyone.

Always and everywhere be right and good against evil and injustice.

It was pure military ethos of the crusades and masculinity.

The "code of chivalry" is thus a product of the Late Middle Ages, evolving after the end of the crusades partly from an idealization of the historical knights fighting in the Holy Land.

Regardless of the diverse written definitions of chivalry, the medieval knightly class was adept at the art of war, trained in fighting in armor, with horses, lances, swords and shields. Knights were taught to excel in the arms, to show courage, to be gallant and loyal and to swear off cowardice and baseness.

It had a modifying influence on the classical concept of heroism and virtue, nowadays identified with the virtues of chivalry.

The Peace and Truce of God in the 10th century was one such example, with limits placed on knights to protect and honor the weaker members of society and also help the church maintain peace. At the same time the church became more tolerant of war in the defense of faith, espousing theories of the just war; and liturgies were introduced which blessed a knight's sword, and a bath of chivalric purification.

It was ritualizing acts of war to maintain social cohesion. It instructed men on how to be champions and not brutes.

Related to chivalry was the practice of heraldry and its elaborate rules of displaying coats of arms. When not fighting, chivalric knights typically resided in a castle or fortified house, while some knights lived in the courts of kings, dukes and other great lords. The skills of the knight carried over to peacetime activities such as the hunt and tournament to preserve their skills. They were awarded prizes and such. A prize could include a title if they were lucky or wealth.

Chivalry also came to refer to an idealization of the life and manners of the knight at home in his castle and with his court.

There are warfare handbooks of the time that have chapters which discuss the morals and laws of war.

Acts of war were seen as 'legitimate unsheathing of the sword against the infidel'. They were crusaders of Christianity and what they believed in. They venerated Christ and the apostles and began to Venerate the mother of Christ 'The Virgin Mary'.

The medieval development of chivalry, with the concept of the honor of a lady and the ensuing knightly devotion to it, not only derived from the thinking about the Virgin Mary, but also contributed to it. The medieval veneration of the Virgin Mary was contrasted by the fact that ordinary women, especially those outside aristocratic circles, were looked down upon. Although women were at times viewed as the source of evil, it was Mary who as mediator to God was a source of refuge for man. The development of medieval Mariology and the changing attitudes towards women paralleled each other.

The merchant classes wanting to appear noble adopted these codes and manners. They wanted to seem well to do. And not being able to adopt the rules of warfare in society attitudes towards others and women in particular became a more visible way of doing this. This was a democratization of chivalry, leading to a new genre called the courtesy book, which were guides to the behavior of "gentlemen".

In medieval literature, chivalry can be classified into three basic areas.

Duties to countrymen and fellow Christians valor, fairness, protection of the weak and the poor,warrior chivalry.

Duties to God religious chivalry.

Duties to women: this is probably the most familiar aspect of chivalry. Courtly love chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his own lady and his daughters.

From this arose the idea of courtly love. Much popularized by Eleanor of Aquitaine from France mother of Richard the Lionheart and two other kinds of England. Courtly love was a medieval European conception of nobly and chivalrously expressing love and admiration.Generally, courtly love was secret and between members of the nobility. It was also generally not practiced between husband and wife.

Society then was very patriarchal and life tough and brutish. Feminization was seen as ennobling. Courtly love is cherished for its exaltation of femininity as an ennobling, spiritual, and moral force, in contrast to the ironclad rule of the church which burnt or tortured people at the time.

Arranged marriages and frustration needed another outlet for emotions.

Courtly art involved music poetry and dance. And courtly love became a literary convention.

Gaston Paris said amour courtois was an idolization and ennobling discipline. The lover (idolizer) accepts the independence of his mistress and tries to make himself worthy of her by acting bravely and honorably (nobly) and by doing whatever deeds she might desire, subjecting himself to a series of tests (ordeals) to prove to her his ardor and commitment. The love was based on sexual attraction rather than an arranged marriage. It was seen as a benevolent force as it made the man and woman better people by becoming brave or honorable etc.

Troubadour poems praise knights for their chivalry and prowess in war and in love. And how this improves the general character. All courtly love was erotic and sexual in contrast to religious love. It was a way to make sexual desire ennobling.

But Chivalry was/is much bigger than that. And originally had nothing to do with women. It was a humanitarian culture of soldiers attempting to civilize themselves and deal with the reality of the times.
By following the code men could gain greater social status and honors. It was as much about self improvement as anything else.

I think I have earned extra geekiness with all that.

designbydan

Lou.m wrote: »

Real men are polite to women because they are not trying to get anything out of it.

All men are "real men" if they're good or bad fathers, great or useless boyfriends, polite or rude, it doesn't matter if they like women or other men either. Still "Real Men"

Getting very sick of seeing Facebook posts that start with "real men do this..." or "real women look like this..."

Wompa1

designbydan wrote: »

All men are "real men" if they're good or bad fathers, great or useless boyfriends, polite or rude, it doesn't matter if they like women or other men either. Still "Real Men"

Getting very sick of seeing Facebook posts that start with "real men do this..." or "real women look like this..."

Real men don't care about generalizations against them :pac:

designbydan

Wompa1 wrote: »

Real men don't care about generalizations against them :pac:

Well played Sir, well played. :pac:

To answer the OP's original question:

I hold doors open for anyone if they're close enough while I'm walking through.
I don't always walk on the closer side to the road when with my gf, but I do always walk on the right side of her, and make sure she carries her bag on her right shoulder between us . (I think that's a living in the city/common sense thing more than chivalry though)