Chivalry/Gentlemans' Etiquette

Morf

There are the long-held expectations of men of good character but which ones still apply today?

For example my mother a couple of years ago let me know if was good manners if walking with a lady to be on the side of the path nearest the road or to allow a lady the side away from the road when passing if possible.

I'm just curious what other kinds of acts like this still apply in modern society. I will hold doors for a lady or less physically capable person but I don't universally expect a pleasant acknowledgement.

Leaving out gender equality as it would apply to disabled or elderly or any person who could benefit from some kind of assistance or courteous gesture what would these cover?

I'd like to point out that it's not limited to men to have this expectation on them but historically it has been in place.

OldRio

Manners maketh the man.

Open a door. Open a car door. Take a coat. Pull a chair from under a table to allow lady to sit. Stand when lady sits at table. Serve lady first. Do not eat food until lady starts to eat.

Some of the things I was taught to do and still do.
Good manners cost nothing.

DoctorEdgeWild

I would consider a lot of it to be out dated nonsense. I prefer to be polite and courteous to people regardless of gender.

I'd be extra helpful to someone older or disabled but I wouldn't consider women as needing special help or treatment purely because of their sex.

baby and crumble

Manners and etiquette are something that was drilled into me as a child, and I'm glad of it. Even though I'm female I tend to act on the more guy-like side of manners. It just feels normal for me. Particularly when I'm with my girlfriend or older people.

Holding a door open.

I do always walk on the road side, unless I'm with my Dad.

Holding my gf's jacket when she's putting it on.

Giving her my jacket if she's cold.

Not looking at my phone during dinner or conversation.

If I'm in a restaurant, always waiting until everyone at the table has their food before starting.

Giving up seats on the bus.

Please and thank you.

My Mum used to get lots of comments when we were kids about our manners and politeness which always made her happy. I've just continued with it.

OldRio

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I would consider a lot of it to be out dated nonsense. I prefer to be polite and courteous to people regardless of gender.

I'd be extra helpful to someone older or disabled but I wouldn't consider women as needing special help or treatment purely because of their sex.

'outdated nonsense' Sorry but I disagree.
As for 'women needing special help' ? I always find when people (whatever gender) smile life is better.

DoctorEdgeWild

OldRio wrote: »

'outdated nonsense' Sorry but I disagree.
As for 'women needing special help' ? I always find when people (whatever gender) smile life is better.

I agree with you. I'm all for manners, 100%. It's the 'deciding who to apply those manners to based on gender' that I would question.

Paco Rodriguez

There are certain things I do and dont.

I do walk roadside beside a girl, pick something up if someone drops it, give way to people, holding off on eating until they have recieved theirs....

But I wouldn't hold a door open, put on their jacket or hold a chair. As a previous poster said, they are not incapable.

coffee_cake

I hold a door open for anyone behind me and don't start eating until everyone is served and ready to start...

fiona-f

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I agree with you. I'm all for manners, 100%. It's the 'deciding who to apply those manners to based on gender' that I would question.

I think though some of it, while rooted in outdated notions of feminine weakness, still is valid as a shorthand for sorting out minor social situations. Take holding the door open, if a man and women arrive at the door at the same time, applying the standard rule of woman walking through first simply means you don't have to get unit the "you first", "no, no, after you" discussion. It's just an easy practical solution which eases life just a tad and so I don't see it as disrespectful regardless of the origin.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

bluewolf wrote: »

I hold a door open for anyone behind me and don't start eating until everyone is served and ready to start...

i hold the door open for anyone but I place a little black X beside the name of anyone, in my big black book of bastards, who tries to make me wait to eat my food

Andrew_C

I too had good manners drilled into me as a child. I still do all the usual stuff - hold that door, give up my seat (for females - I can no longer say older gents , cos I'm almost one of 'em), don't start till everyone is served etc etc etc.

I've noticed a reluctance on the part of a small percentage of women of any age to accept the proffered seat on the bus (do I look THAT old?).

But here's what really gets my goat. Hold the door open for the person behind, and they breeze through without as much as a nod of acknowledgement. But that's no reason not to hold the door......

We're (as a race) not here for very long (watch a documentary about the Universe to get a perspective on it). We should make the most of it, including the little pleasantries towards each other.

DoctorEdgeWild

fiona-f wrote: »

I think though some of it, while rooted in outdated notions of feminine weakness, still is valid as a shorthand for sorting out minor social situations. Take holding the door open, if a man and women arrive at the door at the same time, applying the standard rule of woman walking through first simply means you don't have to get unit the "you first", "no, no, after you" discussion. It's just an easy practical solution which eases life just a tad and so I don't see it as disrespectful regardless of the origin.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from in those examples and it would ring true in my own life where I would hold the door open for my good lady when we're out and about.

I just tend to question anything that draws a division between men and women, especially when it infers, or could be seen to infer, a weakness on one side or the other.

OldRio

Sorry but good manners does not infer weakness.

DoctorEdgeWild

OldRio wrote: »

Sorry but good manners does not infer weakness.

I think you may need to read my posts so far again.

For clarity - applying good manners ONLY to one group of people, based on gender alone, infers that they are more in need, or more deserving of, those manners.

I believe in good manners for all.

Snake

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

I place a little black X beside the name of anyone, in my big black book of bastards, who tries to make me wait to eat my food

Same as myself.

coffee_cake

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

i hold the door open for anyone but I place a little black X beside the name of anyone, in my big black book of bastards, who tries to make me wait to eat my food

You knock it back and run out though :pac:

We don't make you wait. We'll just stare judgementally :pac:

OldRio

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I think you may need to read my posts so far again.

For clarity - applying good manners ONLY to one group of people, based on gender alone, infers that they are more in need, or more deserving of, those manners.

I believe in good manners for all.

I do not need to read your posts again. I respect your view but do not agree.
I do not put a coat on a man but i do put a coat on a lady. Does that infer the lady is incapable? I would say no. The lady smiles and says thank you.
No big deal for either party involved but a smile has been produced. A sense of 'niceness' for want of a better word.

Only the other day an elderly man doffed his cap at my wife. Is that bad? Is that wrong? Is it inferring weakness?
I would say no. And yes the wife smiled. A small action that brought about a little joy.

Maphisto

Does putting the seat down count?

DoctorEdgeWild

OldRio wrote: »

I do not need to read your posts again. I respect your view but do not agree.
I do not put a coat on a man but i do put a coat on a lady. Does that infer the lady is incapable? I would say no. The lady smiles and says thank you.
No big deal for either party involved but a smile has been produced. A sense of 'niceness' for want of a better word.

Only the other day an elderly man doffed his cap at my wife. Is that bad? Is that wrong? Is it inferring weakness?
I would say no. And yes the wife smiled. A small action that brought about a little joy.

I'm not judging you on your actions, they are really no business of mine. I'm just answering the question posed by the OP. I simply don't believe in treating people differently based purely on their gender. Some people do and that's fine by me. My personal choice is be polite to all, male, female, white, black, tall, short etc.

Pawwed Rig

I would hold a door open for anyone and would expect a thank you from that person. Also it is general manners to wait until people have their food before tucking in but neither is gender specific. Pulling a chair out or opening a car door is OTT if you ask me as is the whole 'ladies first' mentality.
I would never give up my seat on a bus or train for a girl just coz she is a girl. If she was pregnant then yes or any old person male or female.

Generally I try and treat people equally.

Give someone my jacket? You must be kidding me. I will not pay for another persons lack of forsight.

Walk on road side? Why?

To treat someone different because of their gender implies that one does not believe in equality.

Maphisto

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Walk on road side? Why?

My wife's aunt had her bag snatched by a bloke on a bike in Dublin, I always tend to walk on the roadside.

The rest is just good manners and consideration.

Though if your food comes first, eat it, don't end up with cold food on my account, because I'm genna eat mine if it comes first.

Pawwed Rig

Maphisto wrote: »

My wife's aunt had her bag snatched by a bloke on a bike in Dublin, I always tend to walk on the roadside.

Plenty of people have their bags snatched by non cyclists. I think encouraging more personal security awareness would be a better idea.

Maphisto

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Plenty of people have their bags snatched by non cyclists. I think encouraging more personal security awareness would be a better idea.

Maybe they do and maybe it would, but whilst we don't spend tremendous time analysing it, that's why I walk roadside most of the time.

Morf

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Walk on road side? Why?

My understanding is that it goes way back to times where streets were filthy and nearer the road more likely to get splashed with whatever unpleasantness in the road. Speculating really to be honest.

Siosleis

My dear sirs, if I may.
I believe a potato will root out the underclass.
As you were. "simper"

Dick phelan

Do mostly what has been posted, don't give up my seat though, obviously if they are elderly disables, pregnant ect but if they are a perfectly healthy female why the hell should i have to stand and not them, feck off i feel like sitting it's a pain to stand on transport.

tommy2bad

So what we are talking about are courtesies not manners. Manners are nothing more than social cues to status and should be ignored rejected and anyone insisting on 'manners' should be laughed at.
Holding a door, offering a seat, helping with a coat should be encouraged as they show consideration empathy and respect.

pwurple

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from in those examples and it would ring true in my own life where I would hold the door open for my good lady when we're out and about.

I just tend to question anything that draws a division between men and women, especially when it infers, or could be seen to infer, a weakness on one side or the other.

I think courtesy stems from a time when women, as those who have abililty to further the species, were seen as more valuable than men. It was that value being protected primarily. Not a particular inference of weakness.

With the industrial revolution, better nutrition and advances in medicine, women survive childbirth usually. There isn't the same weight applied to the ability to produce offspring.

DoctorEdgeWild

pwurple wrote: »

I think courtesy stems from a time when women, as those who have abililty to further the species, were seen as more valuable than men. It was that value being protected primarily. Not a particular inference of weakness.

With the industrial revolution, better nutrition and advances in medicine, women survive childbirth usually. There isn't the same weight applied to the ability to produce offspring.

There's no way in Hell I'm putting my jacket across a puddle for a bunch of stem cells and embryos to walk across!

Seriously though, I would disagree that it was because women were considered more valuable, I have always thought it was because they were seen as the weaker of the two sexes. Although I had never considered your angle before, interesting point.

beano345

I think chivalry's dyeing a slow death look at the Costa Concordia disaster,there was no women and children first as was the case with the titanic when it sank just look at the survival rates.

Pawwed Rig

beano345 wrote: »

I think chivalry's dyeing a slow death look at the Costa Concordia disaster,there was no women and children first as was the case with the titanic when it sank just look at the survival rates.

The Titanic was more a case of rich people first and screw the rest of you. No chivalry there unless you are looking at a really romantic image of the disaster.

To say chivalry is dead due to the Costa Concordia doesn't make sense as 32 people died out of 4,000 odd. Were all the victims women I might agree with you but that wasn't the case. That said do you not think 'women and children first' mentality devalues men as human beings?