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Anglo Trial - Read Mod Warning in First post

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    #1082
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Valetta wrote: »
    What money did these two men steal?
    They stole money from investors when they benefited from an illegal financial instrument.


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    #1083
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    renegademaster wrote: »
    so it was monopoly money they were playing with was it?

    I take it you can't answer the question, then?
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    They stole money from investors when they benefited from an illegal financial instrument.

    They didn't steal any money from investers, and as far as I am aware they didn't benefit from any "illegal financial instrument", whatever that is.


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    #1084
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Valetta wrote: »
    They didn't steal any money from investers, and as far as I am aware they didn't benefit from any "illegal financial instrument", whatever that is.
    If you don't know or don't care that buying your own shares to keep your stock price up (with the gains you get for that) is illegal then there isn't really much point talking to you about this.


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    #1085
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If you don't know or don't care that buying your own shares to keep your stock price up (with the gains you get for that) is illegal then there isn't really much point talking to you about this.

    Can you show that the share price increased, or even stayed the same, as a result of these loans being made?

    Because as far as I am aware the plan failed spectacularly and the two men made nothing out of it.


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    #1086
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Valetta wrote: »
    Can you show that the share price increased, or even stayed the same, as a result of these loans being made?

    Because as far as I am aware the plan failed spectacularly and the two men made nothing out of it.

    If you break into a bank machine and it is empty you are still guilty of a crime


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    #1087
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Valetta wrote: »
    Can you show that the share price increased, or even stayed the same, as a result of these loans being made?

    Because as far as I am aware the plan failed spectacularly and the two men made nothing out of it.
    So attempted crime isn't a crime at all now? Must have missed that minor change to the law of the land myself.


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    #1088
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    marienbad wrote: »
    If you break into a bank machine and it is empty you are still guilty of a crime

    Of course, and they were found guilty.

    The point was made above that they stole public money, which is incorrect.


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    #1089
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So attempted crime isn't a crime at all now? Must have missed that minor change to the law of the land myself.

    Where did I say that?

    Of course it's a crime and they were tried and found guilty.


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    #1090
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Valetta wrote: »
    Where did I say that?

    Of course it's a crime and they were tried and found guilty.
    You claimed the share price needed to increase for it to be a crime, which was their illegal intention whether it worked or not.
    Point about the public money taken, though it eventually did cost many billions in public money.


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    #1091
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You claimed the share price needed to increase for it to be a crime, which was their illegal intention whether it worked or not.
    Point about the public money taken, though it eventually did cost many billions in public money.

    I never claimed any such thing.


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    #1092
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Er, right here?
    Valetta wrote: »
    Can you show that the share price increased, or even stayed the same, as a result of these loans being made?

    Because as far as I am aware the plan failed spectacularly and the two men made nothing out of it.


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    #1093
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Er, right here?

    I never claimed it wasn't a crime.

    You just imagined that bit.


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    #1094
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Valetta wrote: »
    I never claimed it wasn't a crime.

    You just imagined that bit.
    So you agreed it was a crime and just responded with that stuff about the share price not actually going up to shoot the breeze. OK. :)


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    #1095
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    I think this post from a previous poster summed it up well

    "if your boss told you to do something and you checked with an international institution that you were doing it correctly and even the government came in and told you everything was legal. Then a few years later the government came back and told you what you did was actually illegal despite our advice and now we're sending you to jail, would that be fair?"


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    #1096
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    To those suggesting that the lack of a jail sentence is fair and just here, let's put it in perspective:
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/more-than-400-people-jailed-for-not-paying-tv-licence-last-year-629312.html
    More than 400 people jailed for not paying TV licence last year

    Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:00 PM

    The number of people jailed for failing to pay their TV licence increased by more than 50% last year.
    A total of 411 people were sent to prison for the offence in 2013, compared to 272 for 2012.
    Six years ago, just 49 people were jailed.

    Brendan Hennessy from St Vincent De Paul's Social Policy believes the punishment is too harsh for the crime.
    “People on low income need payment plans and so on that make things like a TV licence affordable, even it’s over a longer term”
    “Government needs to recognise the vulnerability of so many people who, since the recession, have found themselves in a situation that was not of their making, who would like to do their best, but often can’t.”

    One rule for the establishment, etc. :mad:


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    #1097
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    To those suggesting that the lack of a jail sentence is fair and just here, let's put it in perspective:
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/more-than-400-people-jailed-for-not-paying-tv-licence-last-year-629312.html



    One rule for the establishment, etc. :mad:

    Does it really need to be pointed out that these people did not go to jail for not paying their TV licenses.

    They went to jail for failing to comply with a court order, which is a very serious offence.


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    #1098
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Valetta wrote: »
    Does it really need to be pointed out that these people did not go to jail for not paying their TV licenses.

    They went to jail for failing to comply with a court order, which is a very serious offence.

    and what these two did isn't ?


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    #1099
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    To those suggesting that the lack of a jail sentence is fair and just here, let's put it in perspective:
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/more-than-400-people-jailed-for-not-paying-tv-licence-last-year-629312.html



    One rule for the establishment, etc. :mad:

    Looks like there's 3 rules :-

    1 - get off Scot free
    2 - slap on the wrist
    3 - full rigour of the law


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    #1100
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I think this post from a previous poster summed it up well

    "if your boss told you to do something and you checked with an international institution that you were doing it correctly and even the government came in and told you everything was legal. Then a few years later the government came back and told you what you did was actually illegal despite our advice and now we're sending you to jail, would that be fair?"

    I think you will find they said it does not seem to be illegal totally different The regulator gave no other information than a quick Google could have shown. And again the solicitor says he was never asked about the maple 10 so gave no positive legal advice on that.


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    #1101
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Valetta wrote: »
    Does it really need to be pointed out that these people did not go to jail for not paying their TV licenses.

    They went to jail for failing to comply with a court order, which is a very serious offence.

    This. A million times over.

    People bringing up TV licences make me cringe. Nobody has ever been jailed for not paying their tv licence in the history of the state. The worst punishment ever received for not paying your tv licence was a fine.

    Now, not paying a court ordered fine? That's a very serious offence. If you're not going to treat the courts with respect then what else are you liable to do?


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    #1102
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    This. A million times over.

    People bringing up TV licences make me cringe. Nobody has ever been jailed for not paying their tv licence in the history of the state. The worst punishment ever received for not paying your tv licence was a fine.

    Now, not paying a court ordered fine? That's a very serious offence. If you're not going to treat the courts with respect then what else are you liable to do?

    It still comes down to being jailed over a crime invocing a couple of hundred euro, and not being jailed over a crime involving a couple of hundred thousand euro.


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    #1103
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    This. A million times over.

    People bringing up TV licences make me cringe. Nobody has ever been jailed for not paying their tv licence in the history of the state. The worst punishment ever received for not paying your tv licence was a fine.

    Now, not paying a court ordered fine? That's a very serious offence. If you're not going to treat the courts with respect then what else are you liable to do?

    All that's missing from your post is the word Terrorist.


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    #1104
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    It still comes down to being jailed over a crime invocing a couple of hundred euro, and not being jailed over a crime involving a couple of hundred thousand euro.

    The amount is irrelevant. How else do you punish a person that doesn't pay a court ordered fine? Issue them another fine? Obviously that doesn't bother them, so what you need to do is give them a stronger punishment so they get the picture.

    If the Anglo guys receive a fine and the proceed to not pay it then they should by all means go to jail. And they would be sent to jail if that was the case.


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    #1105
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    The amount is irrelevant. How else do you punish a person that doesn't pay a court ordered fine? Issue them another fine? Obviously that doesn't bother them, so what you need to do is give them a stronger punishment so they get the picture.

    If the Anglo guys receive a fine and the proceed to not pay it then they should by all means go to jail. And they would be sent to jail if that was the case.

    A fine of 5k or less is a ridiculous punishment for these guys, as is community service. You think that's any kind of deterrent?


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    #1106
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Valetta wrote: »
    Does it really need to be pointed out that these people did not go to jail for not paying their TV licenses.

    They went to jail for failing to comply with a court order, which is a very serious offence.

    Not half as serious as what these two did.


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    #1107
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,170 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Not half as serious as what these two did.

    That seems to be the reply for a lot of things....


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    #1108
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    That seems to be the reply for a lot of things....

    Yes stating the obvious it may be but it needs to be said.


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    #1109
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,676 ✭✭✭Worztron


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    People have killed themselves over the financial devastation brought about by these criminals and others. Not good enough that they get away scot free.

    +1

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #1110
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,676 ✭✭✭Worztron


    smurgen wrote: »
    No they didn't ,if you commit fraud in the US you get jail

    Don't be so naive. They fined big companies but nobody goes to jail.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #1111
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,676 ✭✭✭Worztron


    ScumLord wrote: »
    The problem is these guys are scapegoats, they should have got some jail time but they're about as responsible for the overall state of affairs as their secretaries. The people responsible in banking management and our own government, the people that allowed this to happen, are slipping out the back door while we're directing all our mab anger at two pawns.

    The 2 crooks in question were a lot more than mere pawns. I agree though that there are a lot more that should be jailed with them - for a very long time.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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