Season 4 Episode 2 "The Lion and the Rose" : *HAVE* read the books

Kunkka

"The Lion and the Rose" April 13, 2014[105]
Tyrion lends Jaime a hand. Joffrey and Margaery host a breakfast. At Dragonstone, Stannis loses patience with Davos. Ramsay finds a purpose for his pet. North of the Wall, Bran sees where they must go.

Well this is going to be a big episode with what we know is coming. I'm really looking forward to seeing the non book readers reactions as it's such a big moment so early in the season. I hope they do it justice!

Also we are expected to see the new scenes with Bronn and Jaime from the description. They should be a bit of banter!

More importantly we have some scenes with Stannis this week

valor rorghulis

Hopefully a bit of Roose as well. Loving McElhatton in this role.

I think we should wait until after the show airs before saying too much, pity the unfortunate non-book reader who accidently clicks in here.

December2012

I'm thinking about taping my husband watching it (he knows nothing).

Did any of you record people watching RW and how did you do it?

lynski

so was i [evil giggle] heheheh [/evil giggle] but he would 'purple wedding' me if I did.

Is there any chance they will stretch it out over two weeks? hope not.

Taxburden carrier

December2012 wrote: »

I'm thinking about taping my husband watching it (he knows nothing).

Did any of you record people watching RW and how did you do it?

Hi Egret !

username123

lynski wrote: »

so was i [evil giggle] heheheh [/evil giggle] but he would 'purple wedding' me if I did.

Is there any chance they will stretch it out over two weeks? hope not.

Yes, I'm wondering that too. I can't see it though it won't have the same impact unless it's done in one session.

username123

Kunkka wrote: »

Also we are expected to see the new scenes with Bronn and Jaime from the description. They should be a bit of banter.

Yeah, I'm really sorry about the actor who plays Ilyn Payne, but Bronn is an excellent replacement. Plus, we already know Bronn is a good swordsman (well he beat one of the knights of the Vale), and doesn't mind fighting dirty so he will suit Jaimes style of fighting. Bronn just looks great onscreen too, tough as old boots. And I'd believe he would keep quiet for money, presume that's how they'll play it.

lynski

I am twitching here, would love to stay up or if we had no kids get up early tomorrow - will be up but can't watch GOT with smallies. Boo
So want to say something - like don't go near anything related to the episode or keep the radio off and stay off the internet too or something. Grrrrrrr
Edit: Just realised it is not on until tomorrow, dagnamit.

Peregrine

Thinking of staying up and watching this. I've never done it before. What time does it air on HBO? 2?

I too hope the Purple Wedding is done in one episode.

lynski wrote: »

will be up but can't watch GOT with smallies. Boo

They won't be smallies forever... and winter is coming.

lynski

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Thinking of staying up and watching this. I've never done it before. What time does it air on HBO? 2?

I too hope the Purple Wedding is done in one episode.



They won't be smallies forever... and winter is coming.

Oh I know and the joys ahead - already got the older two on a diet of star wars star trek, marvel, cosmos, LOTR, Harry Potter, Dr. Who (5 yr old girl loves it)


But anyway, I was talking about my oh as he has not read the books and has no idea what is coming. I am bursting to say something to him, but I know if I even ask does anyone in the office watch GOT he will twig.

Right now he has no idea what the twitchy excitement is in aid of and is engrossed in setting up the new Pi for the media playing.

Oh the suspense!

Liam O

So full on spurned Shae really dislike that storyline.

Wedding was ok I guess, so many winks to it being Olenna but where she was sitting would have had to be some throwing ability to make. It lingered on her in the actual ceremony too when saying 'cursed is he who wishes to tear them apart'. Possible future spoiler in the Ramsay/Jon storyline that Ramsay and Roose were perhaps bribing the guys on the wall to kill him.

Witcher

Liam O wrote: »

So full on spurned Shae really dislike that storyline.

Wedding was ok I guess, so many winks to it being Olenna but where she was sitting would have had to be some throwing ability to make. Possible future spoiler in the Ramsay/Jon storyline that Ramsay and Roose were perhaps bribing the guys on the wall to kill Jon.

They're just setting it up for Locke to go to the Wall.

Kunkka

Roll on half 5!

lynski

half 8 here

Paddy Cow

Liam O wrote: »

So full on spurned Shae really dislike that storyline.

Wedding was ok I guess, so many winks to it being Olenna but where she was sitting would have had to be some throwing ability to make. It lingered on her in the actual ceremony too when saying 'cursed is he who wishes to tear them apart'. Possible future spoiler in the Ramsay/Jon storyline that Ramsay and Roose were perhaps bribing the guys on the wall to kill him.

When Margery shouted that the pie is coming, Joffrey handed her his cup and she put it down on a table in front of Olenna. Everyone was distracted, giving Olenna plenty of time to put something in the cup. Margery then started feeding Joffrey pie and Joffrey made Tyrion pass him the cup.

lynski

but shure we dont know do we? i think there will be some story told in passing and then someone like arya will overhear it.

connemara man

A really good episode I think they tried to make it look like a good few people could have done it. But for book readers lady Olenna has a giant arrow pointing at her with how it was shot.
The dragon in Kings Landing explained well for me I liked the other stories and things are coming along nicely. For TV Shae being spurned is grand keeps it moving along

RobbingBandit

Not as much overkill as the Red Wedding, still may I be the first to say that little cnut is finally dead.

Paddy Cow

lynski wrote: »

but shure we dont know do we? i think there will be some story told in passing and then someone like arya will overhear it.

If you're talking about who killed Joffrey, then we do know. Littlefinger tells Sansa that Olenna did it. The Tyrells want Margery to be the Queen but not married to a monster like Joffrey.

RobbingBandit

Was I right in thinking we didn't see Penny in the dwarf melee.

lynski

Paddy Cow wrote: »

If you're talking about who killed Joffrey, then we do know. Littlefinger tells Sansa that Olenna did it. The Tyrells want Margery to be the Queen but not married to a monster like Joffrey.

but you cant believe a word out of his mouth and he was putting the ****s into sensa to get her to come with him.

Paddy Cow

lynski wrote: »

but you cant believe a word out of his mouth and he was putting the ****s into sensa to get her to come with him.

I believe it was Olenna.

lynski

i think littlefinger or Varys

Rosy Posy

You could see that there was a stone missing from the necklace that Ser Dontos gave Sansa after the Queen of Thorns was fiddling with it, presumably the means by which Littlefinger passed the poison to her? I never quite got that in the books, surely there would have been a simpler way or someone like QoT would have her own ways and means. Unless it was supposed to implicate Sansa if she were caught? Joffery's death face was awesome, extremely cathartic. You can see Cersei's lunacy bubbling to the surface too.

Was sad to see Penny's been written out but I don't know how many decent female dwarf actresses there are out there.

I have to say I'm quite enjoying the deviations from the book story- I liked how they demonstrated Ramsey's total control of Reek/Theon. I also don't think it's too much of a stretch to see Shae as the spurned lover rather than a simple mercenary whore. In some ways the TV character is more developed than the one in the book. I get the feeling that she will resurface in Tywins bed all the same.
I always got a sense that Tywin's honor was more about appearances than actual morality- what bothered him so much about his fathers mistress was not so much her existence as her taking the place of his mother in the public eye. I could imagine him taking full advantage of Shae so long as it was kept secret. He hates Tyrion because he's open about his baser habits; and he seems more concerned about public perception of Cersei/Jaime's incest than the fact of it.


I was watching my oh for the purple wedding finale and he didn't bat an eyelid- I asked him was he not surprised and he said at this stage he expects everyone to die. I remember being blown away by it in the books. I wonder if grrm's penchant for knocking off main characters is actually desensitising people and diminishing the shock value. I'm guessing Stoneheart will be a genuine surprise all the same.

evil_seed

milder than a Dothraki wedding by any standard

username123

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Was sad to see Penny's been written out but I don't know how many decent female dwarf actresses there are out there.

Havent watched it yet but this???? No!!!

A Neurotic

username123 wrote: »

Havent watched it yet but this???? No!!!

There's no reason she can't be introduced in a different way later though, surely?

Jijsaw

Brilliant, little bas*ard is finally dead The sadist in me was a bit sad that he didn't tear at his throat though, that scared the living bejaysus out of me when I first read it! :pac:

Mr.Prodston

I'm gutted he's finally gone. Any semblance of redemption was well and truly gone by the end but I'm seriously going to miss him. Jack Gleeson did a fantastic job with him.

I guess Ramsey has been broken in as the character you love to hate though, what an opening greeting to him in season 4 :pac:

What struck my mind though was what are they actually doing with Shae? Is there any chance that they're putting Bronn in cahoots with Cersei or Tywin, like we have to assume Shae isn't on the boat so either Bronn lied to Tyrion or something else happened?

Bronn's story is pretty much fair game, I guess, but I can't truly see him betraying Tyrion like that (sellsword I know) even if he won't fight for him in the trial. Plus he seems to be filling into Ilyn Payne a bit too.

Paddy Cow

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

I'm gutted he's finally gone. Any semblance of redemption was well and truly gone by the end but I'm seriously going to miss him. Jack Gleeson did a fantastic job with him.

I guess Ramsey has been broken in as the character you love to hate though, what an opening greeting to him in season 4 :pac:

What struck my mind though was what are they actually doing with Shae? Is there any chance that they're putting Bronn in cahoots with Cersei or Tywin, like we have to assume Shae isn't on the boat so either Bronn lied to Tyrion or something else happened?

Bronn's story is pretty much fair game, I guess, but I can't truly see him betraying Tyrion like that (sellsword I know) even if he won't fight for him in the trial. Plus he seems to be filling into Ilyn Payne a bit too.

I was wondering that as well. Maybe they'll go with Bronn being the one to betray Tyrion, not Shae. In the books we know how much Tyrion loved Tysha and hated Tywin for what he did to her. That hasn't come across in the show at all, apart from the one conversation Tyrion had with Bronn and Shae in season 1. Having Tywin kill Shae would be more believable to non book readers than Tywin bedding her.

I can see Bronn betraying Tyrion. When Tyrion asked him if he would rip a baby from it's mother's arms and murder it, Bronn said the only question he would ask is "how much?". He doesn't enjoy cruelty but he is prepared to carry out cruel acts and he will always take care of himself first and foremost.

Mr Freeze

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I really hope the Tyrion/Tywin future scene hasn't had Shae cut form it.

That was the worst (best) part of the scene, it was gut wrenching for Tyrion. I thought it was the ultimate betrayal.

Washington Irving

Who was the girl with Ramsay? Would have assumed it was just some whore but she was quite proficient with a bow. Don't recall any such character from the books, doesn't really fit well with the misogynistic literary equivalent of Ramsay imo.

As already mentioned by others, the changes to Shae's arc don't sit well. I just hope she turns up again in the Tower of the Hand, though it won't live up to the books either way with the way they have gone about it. (They'll hardly try to work her in to Tyrion's adventures in Essos... :eek:)

Didn't like Cersei straight up asking Brienne if she loved Jaime. Complex relationships are far more interesting than your standard unrequited love of someone deemed superior.


Don't want to be too critical so:

I thought Joffrey's death was done extremely well. The whole scene, from the destroying of Lives of Four Kings to the dwarf joust and the expressions of Lady Olenna, Prince Oberyn and Varys, was perfect.


Looking forward to Sansa's escape and getting reacquainted with Littlefinger next week.

Liam O

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I was watching my oh for the purple wedding finale and he didn't bat an eyelid- I asked him was he not surprised and he said at this stage he expects everyone to die. I remember being blown away by it in the books. I wonder if grrm's penchant for knocking off main characters is actually desensitising people and diminishing the shock value. I'm guessing Stoneheart will be a genuine surprise all the same.

I'd say because obviously book reading is a lot more drawn out. Barelt any big characterd die bar Balon Greyjoy in the first half of SoS if I remember correctly, the you have the RW and PW so soon after each other they were both perfectly written hammer blows, then shìt really hits the fan. When you have characters dying at the rate of the show the shock factor would be a lot less.

Paddy Cow

Washington Irving wrote: »

Who was the girl with Ramsay? Would have assumed it was just some whore but she was quite proficient with a bow. Don't recall any such character from the books, doesn't really fit well with the misogynistic literary equivalent of Ramsay imo.

She was one of the women who got Theon all excited before Ramsay cut off his sausage.

Jelle1880

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I really hope the Tyrion/Tywin future scene hasn't had Shae cut form it.

That was the worst (best) part of the scene, it was gut wrenching for Tyrion. I thought it was the ultimate betrayal.

Given the fact that he gave her the golden necklace a while back I'm fairly certain she'll feature.

As for this episode: I knew what was gonna happen but the way they did it was perfect, down to the singers performing The Rains of Castamere :pac:

bopper

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I really hope the Tyrion/Tywin future scene hasn't had Shae cut form it.

That was the worst (best) part of the scene, it was gut wrenching for Tyrion. I thought it was the ultimate betrayal.

I doubt they have cut her out completely. I think they just want viewers to think she's gone. She'll probably be absent for the next few episodes so that she's forgotten about completely and then it will have much more of a shock factor when she's called to the witness stand.

bopper

So am I right in thinking that with the whole Reek/Ramsay/Roose storyline that this series is actually introducing scenes from book five?

Witcher

I think there might still be time for Coldhands, Ep. 4 has Bran etc. finding shelter but Ep. 10 is called 'The Children' according to the Wiki so the 'shelter' might not be Bloodraven's cave just yet.

mewso

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I really hope the Tyrion/Tywin future scene hasn't had Shae cut form it.

That was the worst (best) part of the scene, it was gut wrenching for Tyrion. I thought it was the ultimate betrayal.

One of the big problems with the way they have gone with these characters is that Tyrion killing Shae makes much less sense now as it's no longer the ultimate betrayal at all since he is the one who sent her away. I really don't know what they are doing but I suspect that even though Shae may die it won't be by Tyrion's hands. And that is going badly wrong if you ask me.

Kunkka

Well that was extremely satisfying.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the death scene was rough as hell

i actually looked away during, was horrible

Soft Falling Rain

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

the death scene was rough as hell

i actually looked away during, was horrible

Not me, I savoured every gruesome moment. Take that Joffrey you reprehensible little toe rag.

Iwasfrozen

Poor kid, even Joffery didn't deserve that.

Daith

mewso wrote: »

One of the big problems with the way they have gone with these characters is that Tyrion killing Shae makes much less sense now as it's no longer the ultimate betrayal at all since he is the one who sent her away. I really don't know what they are doing but I suspect that even though Shae may die it won't be by Tyrion's hands. And that is going badly wrong if you ask me.

Shae is way to sympathetic in this! There's no way anyone will buy Tyrion killing her.

PopePalpatine

I have to say, the make-up department did a great job with Joff's corpse. They truly made him look feeble and mortal.

Paddy Cow

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Poor kid, even Joffery didn't deserve that.

Yes he did. Pity Ramsay couldn't have kept him as a pet for awhile before it

Pepe LeFrits

Daith wrote: »

Shae is way to sympathetic in this! There's no way anyone will buy Tyrion killing her.

That might change when she starts making up lies about him in court!

username123

Hmmmm.... Not sure what I make of this.

Ramsay Snow - I just didn't buy that he would have a female partner in crime. Was the one she shot the same one she had previously been riding Theon with?

I found the Cersei being jealous with Brienne a bit off too. I mean, surely Jaime has had his pick of the ladies over the years (not that he did anything but they must have fancied him), surely Cersei wouldn't be jealous of someone who looks like Brienne? And besides, she doesn't want him now anyway so why get all brittle and crazy about it?

Brans storyline is a bit strange, even as a book reader I was a bit confused with some of his visions.

On the other hand, Bronn taking over sparring with Jaime, perfect. Ser Dontos suddenly appearing for Sansa, excellent.

I'm so gonna miss Joffrey, I loved to hate him! I don't think it was obvious at all what happened. I didn't notice Sansas necklace looking any different after Lady Oleanna was at her. My husband (non book reader), immediately thought it was Ser Dontos somehow.

I enjoyed Oberyns passive aggressive interaction with Tywin/Cersei.

Oh, probably my favourite bit of dialogue was Jaime and Loras, Loras ever the gent about to be complimentary about his impending nuptials, shot down with a threat and still got the last word. Go Team Loras!

gandalf

Great episode really enjoyed the way Joffrey was offed, it was just as gruesome as I imagined it from reading the books! The only disappointment I had was the reaction of the wife, she wasn't as shocked as she was with the Red Wedding. I definitely think the non-readers are getting desensitised to the shocks!!

Witcher

username123 wrote: »

Hmmmm.... Not sure what I make of this.

Ramsay Snow - I just didn't buy that he would have a female partner in crime. Was the one she shot the same one she had previously been riding Theon with?

I found the Cersei being jealous with Brienne a bit off too. I mean, surely Jaime has had his pick of the ladies over the years (not that he did anything but they must have fancied him), surely Cersei wouldn't be jealous of someone who looks like Brienne? And besides, she doesn't want him now anyway so why get all brittle and crazy about it?

They put a woman in to add another dynamic to the story...people don't expect a woman to be that cruel.

I don't think she's jealous of her...she's scoffing at Brienne loving Jaime more than anything.

There was definitely a stone gone from the necklace, the one furthest to Sansa's left, there are some screencaps of it going around.

nibtrix