Importing a carbon frame from China - anti dumping duty?

Kaisr Sose

I am close to ordering a carbon frame from China. Whats holding me back is the concern that I may get hit by the 48.5% anti dumping duty which I hear has been applied by EU customs in other countries on private imports of frames from China. (Source roadbikeforum)

What are the views from boardsies who have bought frames / wheels from China? Standard duty plus vat or those plus the antidumping duty?

I rang customs here and got two versions. One that as an importer of less than 300 parts per month, the duty did not apply, and the other that the 300 unit exemption only applies if the importer has an end user agreement, which only applies to manufacturers.

My interpretation of the EU legislation is that its not intended to penalise individual importers. It's intended for commercial importation-hence the name anti dumping. It would seem unfair that the likes of planet x, decathlon, rose, plus loads of others have an expemption (loads of EU manufactures do as they get the frames from China) as they then assemble a bike in the EU, while Joe Consumer wanting to assemble his own bike, can't avail of the same exemption.

emmett12

I know if 2 poeple having frames but are very nice looking bikes when new but the paint is easily damage and both will have to be resrapyed at some stage as for the wheels I got a set they do the job so unless u are buying something with class hubs the one from china are grand ... Yes u can get caught by the customs just depends on your luck really

Kaisr Sose

Just to clarify...I am not trying to evade taxes!

Robxxx7

I imported a frame, fork and bits there last year and was fortunate not to get stopped for customs taxes etc .. but i built it into the cost of the frame etc anyway just in case. I would say if you buy one just factor in the extra cost .. if you don't have to pay the extra then its a big bonus.

lennymc

i got wheels recently and paid taxes etc, but, with the prospect of the 48.5% anti dumping charge, why not go with a frame from within the eu? The chinese frames seem to be about 400 ish, then add on delivery, and duty (I read on another site they are clamping down on everything from china) and even without the potential anti dumping charge you are up at 700 ish (very rough maths), it makes the chinese frames seem a whole lot less cheap imho.

Kaisr Sose

Thanks for the replies. I would agree with you Lenny...if the anti dumping tax is a certainty, the frames are not as good value -something that lands in the country with a CIF value of 400 practically doubles after duty/tax.

But the question remains...how could an import by a person not acting in the course of business be reckonable for an anti dumping tax-where is the large scale import that anti dumping measures are designed to prevent?

lennymc

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

But the question remains...how could an import by a person not acting in the course of business be reckonable for an anti dumping tax-where is the large scale import that anti dumping measures are designed to prevent?

unfortunately its revenue, and i think depending on who you deal with it you will get different answers. AFAIK the only way to go if you are charged the ADD is to pay it and then appeal it. Tis a pita. Does the ADD charge only come into effect for items from certain countries? (ie China), as I have seen talk about buying stuff from Taiwan, but I dont know who does frames from there.

Chips Lovell

Perhaps you could write a letter to Revenue seeking clarification on whether ADD applies to individuals. If you get a reply saying it doesn't, keep this on file and use it in any appeal should you be charged for it.

omri

You can always buy turas frame - its from one of the chinese frame builders, they will even let you design your own paint work, if it developes a fault at least youll have irish company to chase for warranty etc and not some ebay guy.

It will cost €1.2k or so - but hey support the local business.

Kaisr Sose

Writing to revenue seems like a good idea...though I wrote to them before about a commercial stamp duty issue. They advised a 3% rate, then I was audited and told the rate was 9% and had to pay interest and penalties. I was not happy about it. Appealed and lost. They said they don't give good tax advice and anything they say is not binding on them if they get it wrong. What a wonderful world they live in!

Kaisr Sose

omri wrote: »

You can always buy turas frame - its from one of the chinese frame builders....

It will cost €1.2k or so - but hey support the local business.

Sounds like a flawed business model to me. Why pay them €1.2k for something they land in Ireland for about €500? They are making a supernormal profit and adding very little value to the item for it.

With an end user agreement from Revenue, they would avoid the 48.5% duty which only highlights my point-anti dumping should not apply to a personal import.

omri

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Sounds like a flawed business model to me. Why pay them €1.2k for something they land in Ireland for about €500? They are making a supernormal profit and adding very little value to the item for it.

With an end user agreement from Revenue, they would avoid the 48.5% duty which only highlights my point-anti dumping should not apply to a personal import.

If youre willing to support the local business and have few quid to spare then why not. Sadly my bossman does not share the same view re my wage hence I buy where the best price is..plus I dont fancy turas frames anyway.

Kaisr Sose

omri wrote: »

If youre willing to support the local business and have few quid to spare then why not. Sadly my bossman does not share the same view re my wage hence I buy where the best price is..plus I dont fancy turas frames anyway.

I think the turas pricing as indicated above (1,200) does not represent good value. Planet X frames are much the same (Chinese made. Toray t700 etc) but are not as expensive. I am open to correction on that though! Maybe the painting is higher standard?

Are there any more people here that have experience buying a Chinese frame? Looking for peoples experiences of customs duties. There must be loads of people that have bought these...

Thanks

Quigs Snr

I got some wheels from farsport for a friend a week ago. They were hit for customs (three wheels in total coming to 675 euro). All charges came to an extra 192 euro.

Brian?

I know it's not really the question , but. If I was importing a Chinese frame it'd be a naked carbon finish. I've seen some terrible paint jobs on these frames, but carbon always looks good.

Kaisr Sose

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I got some wheels from farsport for a friend a week ago. They were hit for customs (three wheels in total coming to 675 euro). All charges came to an extra 192 euro.

With that amount charged it would seem you only paid standard duty and VAT. Which is hopeful...

Kaisr Sose

Brian? wrote: »

I know it's not really the question , but. If I was importing a Chinese frame it'd be a naked carbon finish. I've seen some terrible paint jobs on these frames, but carbon always looks good.

I have heard that too. I would be buying unpainted (well Matt black or gloss clear coat)

Brian?

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I have heard that too. I would be buying unpainted (well Matt black or gloss clear coat)

Good choice. I reckon bare unidirectional carbon is nice looking than any paint job. A few decals is as much as it needs. With an unbranded Chinese frame if leave it bare.

Have you looked at Hong fu? They have a frame very similar to the Cervelo R3 that's tasty.

Rua_ri

I got the FM066SL from Dengfu.
http://dengfubikes.com/product/detail.php?id=124

Got it in the unpainted unidirectional carbon.
Built it with Campagnolo Chorus .

IMO the unidirectional finish of the Campag carbon works really well with the frameset.


To the OP i got mine last year, it arrived at work with no charges or duty.
I got lucky i guess.

Rgs
Rua

Kaisr Sose

Brian? wrote: »

Good choice. I reckon bare unidirectional carbon is nice looking than any paint job......

Have you looked at Hong fu? They have a frame very similar to the Cervelo R3 that's tasty.

Funny you say that...that was the frame I was looking at. Looks tasty alright! Velobuild have a version-maybe the same mould, they call it the r-055, and they sell for $450.

Kaisr Sose

Rua_ri wrote: »

I got the FM066SL from Dengfu.

To the OP i got mine last year, it arrived at work with no charges or duty.
I got lucky i guess.

Lucky you!

Good choice. How are you finding it?

Ger.O.Mahony

I got a FM098 from Dengfu, no hassle importing it over a year ago, great frame, still going strong.

Rua_ri

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Lucky you!

Good choice. How are you finding it?

I find it great. Haven't taken it to the hills properly yet as I had it in storage for the winter.
Taking it on the 120km tour DE foothills tomorrow.
First proper outing, should tell a lot.

Big difference going from a 10+ kg bike to one that's 6.8 kg.

Kaisr Sose

Rua_ri wrote: »

I find it great. Haven't taken it to the hills properly yet as I had it in storage for the winter.
Taking it on the 120km tour DE foothills tomorrow.
First proper outing, should tell a lot.

Big difference going from a 10+ kg bike to one that's 6.8 kg.

I would say the difference is massive...and hoping I notice the change too! Still riding my Columbus SL I raced from 89-94. Same components (dura ace/chorus) ..the only difference is I can't make it go as fast now :-)

Your post explains all the TDF markings I seen today out round Blessington/Kilbride/ Ballymore. Nice roads for cycling. Enjoy the big test spin on the hills.

Lusk_Doyle

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Perhaps you could write a letter to Revenue seeking clarification on whether ADD applies to individuals. If you get a reply saying it doesn't, keep this on file and use it in any appeal should you be charged for it.

Or just ask Beasty!

seanin4711

Couldd be in the market for a tt frame and/or wheels (checks to see if other half is lurking over my shoulder)

godtabh

seanin4711 wrote: »

Couldd be in the market for a tt frame and/or wheels

I maybe interested in that. Would be looking for a road frameset

SOR2010

I got a frame handlebars & saddle last Sept value was $700 and the Customs was €123

BofaDeezNuhtz

anti dumping duty???.....oh yeah because the countryside is just awash with people discarding their carbon frames ffs!

I've never heard such bollox in me life or am I missing something here?

Beasty

seanin4711 wrote: »

Couldd be in the market for a tt frame and/or wheels (checks to see if other half is lurking over my shoulder)

If you want to do a group buy, please don't do it in a thread about anti-dumping duty. You should also make anyone aware of all costs, including import duties. Boards in no way condones anything that would look to avoid any legally due tax or duties (I am not suggesting that was your intention here, just ponting it out given you chose to mention a group buy in this particular thread)

Anyway, I'm closing this one - please feel free to start a separate thread if you wish

lennymc

The powers that be kindly agreed to unlock this thread, so please keep it on topic, and if there are any tax evasion, bulk buys or anything else OT please post it somewhere else, as this anti dumping tax information could be useful to lots of people.

Anyway, OP - did you ever order the frame, and if so did you get hit for the tax? Did anyone else order a frame?

Thanks,

WillyFXP

omri wrote: »

You can always buy turas frame - its from one of the chinese frame builders, they will even let you design your own paint work, if it developes a fault at least youll have irish company to chase for warranty etc and not some ebay guy.

It will cost €1.2k or so - but hey support the local business.

omri wrote: »

If youre willing to support the local business and have few quid to spare then why not. Sadly my bossman does not share the same view re my wage hence I buy where the best price is..plus I dont fancy turas frames anyway.

Turas frames are actually hand made in Italy.

Bloggsie

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Writing to revenue seems like a good idea...though I wrote to them before about a commercial stamp duty issue. They advised a 3% rate, then I was audited and told the rate was 9% and had to pay interest and penalties. I was not happy about it. Appealed and lost. They said they don't give good tax advice and anything they say is not binding on them if they get it wrong. What a wonderful world they live in!

that is not right, your told one rate & then charged 3 times the rate. When the revolution comes i know who will be up against the wall after politicians(some not all)bankers, rogue builders and bad drivers!
seriously fubar!

Kaisr Sose

lennymc wrote: »

The powers that be kindly agreed to unlock this thread, so please keep it on topic, and if there are any tax evasion, bulk buys or anything else OT please post it somewhere else, as this anti dumping tax information could be useful to lots of people.

Anyway, OP - did you ever order the frame, and if so did you get hit for the tax? Did anyone else order a frame?

Thanks,

Thanks to who ever was behind unlocking this thread. I did not understand the justifications given for locking it in the first place.

Anyway, back on topic. I have not ordered yet. Still toying with the idea and researching frames/sellers etc. I would say it's more likely I will order something in the next month or so.

Would still be nice to have an official word on this but Revenue are so inconsistent it makes anything they say totally unreliable.

SOR2010

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Thanks to who ever was behind unlocking this thread. I did not understand the justifications given for locking it in the first place.

Anyway, back on topic. I have not ordered yet. Still toying with the idea and researching frames/sellers etc. I would say it's more likely I will order something in the next month or so.

Would still be nice to have an official word on this but Revenue are so inconsistent it makes anything they say totally unreliable.

Hi Kaisr Sose check out www. dutycalculator. com

You need to expect to pay the duty, I've heard Customs are cracking down on bikes coming in with very few getting through!

I ordered a Carbon frame last September and the cost was just over $600 inc delivery
After about 28 days I got notification from Customs the bike frame had been stopped and they wanted proof of purchase to calculate the duty,

The seller had marked the the package as "Bike Parts" and included an invoice of $64
I did not ask him to do this and I sent Customs the original Invoice
The import duty is calculated @ 4.5% + VAT @23%
I paid An Post €123 when the delivered the bike a few days later

I disclosed the correct value as it was the right thing to do and I was afraid I'd have the bike confiscated

lennymc

Good info SOR2010, however, I dont think the link you supplied takes into account the anti dumping duty which may or may not be applicable. No one seems to know!

Chips Lovell

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I rang customs here and got two versions. One that as an importer of less than 300 parts per month, the duty did not apply, and the other that the 300 unit exemption only applies if the importer has an end user agreement, which only applies to manufacturers.

According to this, you have to apply for the exemption.

Given that application of customs duties is never 100% consistent, it could go through and not be levied. But given the above info, I'd budget for anti-dumping to be charged and regard it as a bonus if it isn't.

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I did not understand the justifications given for locking it in the first place.

If you've a problem with a moderating decision, please don't raise it on thread since this is against the charter. PM the mods instead. Thanks

SOR2010

OP did you make any decisions?

I'm thinking of ordering some Carbon Wheels from China so wondering do I need to allow for this?

Quigs Snr

SOR2010 wrote: »

OP did you make any decisions?

I'm thinking of ordering some Carbon Wheels from China so wondering do I need to allow for this?

Yes you do.. I got 3 separate orders, 2 did not get stopped. One did (the one that did was earlier this spring, 3 wheels, total value of about 600 euro delivered, total charges was about 180) - so maybe you get lucky, but make sure your budget can absorb you not getting lucky.

lennymc

I dont think the anti dumping duty applies to bicycle wheels, but don't hold me to that. I was charged VAT and duty on a set of wheels last year -so allow for it in your calculations.

NBar

Do An Post or what ever delivery agent look for your credit card invoice cost still or do they work off the cost on the customs docket?

lennymc

NBar wrote: »

Do An Post or what ever delivery agent look for your credit card invoice cost still or do they work off the cost on the customs docket?

they looked for a receipt from me. Paypal invoice was acceptable.

Dizraeligears

Has anyone bought in a frame lately?Looking at a Velobuild/Hongfu jobbie.More importantly has anyone been hit for the anti-dumping charge.Bought a frame from Pedal Force a few years ago and was hit for customs charge.That I can handle-the anti dumping thing is putting me off...

SOR2010

Haven't bought a frame but I did get a set of Carbon Wheels last month,
Wheels cost €340
Duty was €104
I checked dutycalculator.com and they said the charge would be €99 so i think it all depends on the conversion rate on the day, the website only allows you do a certain number of calculations free so go easy on it but it will give you an idea,

Our local postman advised that they are stopping nearly all packages from China labeled Bike Parts so expect to pay the duty but there was no breakdown on so can't confirm on the Anti Dump Tax

NBar

An post etc also charge an Admin cost as well so it's more money for them when checking stuff.

seanin4711

SOR2010 wrote: »

Haven't bought a frame but I did get a set of Carbon Wheels last month,
Wheels cost €340
Duty was €104
I checked dutycalculator.com and they said the charge would be €99 so i think it all depends on the conversion rate on the day, the website only allows you do a certain number of calculations free so go easy on it but it will give you an idea,

Our local postman advised that they are stopping nearly all packages from China labeled Bike Parts so expect to pay the duty but there was no breakdown on so can't confirm on the Anti Dump Tax

duty charged @ 30%?

meestaasher

ive had three from china to the uk, paid no duty on first 2 but 45 quid on this 3rd, however I sent it via uk and had it brought into spain from there as the Spanish are indeed very hot on the anti-dumping tax, which is 45% AFTER they have added on their VAT etc to a value THEY are free to assign to the frame...

ironically the Spanish actually have a free trade agreement with china giving Chinese citizens special tax rates etc here in spain...

Harrybelafonte

seanin4711 wrote: »

duty charged @ 30%?

got bars in

233 for bars

74 for duty

Kaisr Sose

NBar wrote: »

An post etc also charge an Admin cost as well so it's more money for them when checking stuff.

Thats not a fair statement. An Post do not levy duty, Revenue do. An Post are obliged to present goods to Customs from certain 'hot countries' or if the Customs Declaration indicates the goods might be chargeable. If Revenue decide the goods are not chargeable, there is nothing in it for An Post.

Kaisr Sose

meestaasher wrote: »

ive had three from china to the uk, paid no duty on first 2 but 45 quid on this 3rd, however I sent it via uk and had it brought into spain from there as the Spanish are indeed very hot on the anti-dumping tax, which is 45% AFTER they have added on their VAT etc to a value THEY are free to assign to the frame...

ironically the Spanish actually have a free trade agreement with china giving Chinese citizens special tax rates etc here in spain...

The anti dumping charge is an EU level charge so the Spanish (or any other EU country) have no discretion to waive it.

The tax is applied to stop the alleged dumping of products by Chinese bike manufactures below the cost of production or below market value. There is no evidence to support this theory - its just a protectionist strategy.

Larger companies such as: Rose, Eddy Mercx, Canyon, Planet X, Decathlon....(by no means the full list) applied for and were granted an exemption. They then assemble the bike in the EU with other mainly imported goods, thus creating employment (and generating income taxes) but addling very little value to the process.

If the below cost argument were true, how can a mass import of these same goods for onward sale by exempt parties be allowable, while a private import of one frame for personal use is considered as being liable or likely to distort the EU bike market?

Carawaystick

The head of the eu commission, Jean Juncker has been quoted extensively saying "sometimes you have to lie" which sets the level of ethics the eu operate at...