driving with a provisional licence

FrancisJosh

Hi there,

I know there was a recent crack down on driving with a provisional licence I was just wondering if it is still as strict and how much is the fine?

ProudDUB

Do you mean driving unaccompanied with a provisional license? If you do, yes, it is still against the law, and the fine can be up to 2000 euros.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/0415/ireland/l-plate-drivers-thousands-fined-for-going-solo-228374.html

When new legislation comes into place, later in the year, you will also get points on your license if you are caught.

Lots of people will no doubt post on here saying 'I've been driving unaccompanied for years, never had a spot of bother blah blah blah....' but it is still against the law.

Moomat

ProudDUB wrote: »

Lots of people will no doubt post on here saying 'I've been driving unaccompanied for years, never had a spot of bother blah blah blah....' but it is still against the law.

I agree, it's amazing the amount of usually law abiding people who are willing to break the law regarding driving accompanied. As the article states it's a permit to learn and not a driving license. I'd imagine as road deaths are creeping up again they will focus on this area soon.

On another note, drivers treatment of people with L plates up is shocking. I've recently started an initiative where I practice with learners and act as their sponsor and I didn't realise how impatient people are when they see a learner. All road users have a part to play and we need to create a good environment for learners who are obeying the law to practice safely. We all started somewhere, whether we picked it up in a day or a year, give people a chance.

If anybody needs somebody to practice with in the Dublin area I'll gladly help. More details here: https://www.facebook.com/LearnerDriverSponsor

Please like and share the page if you think it's good and if anybody is interested in running something similar PM me and I'll provide any information you might need.

jd83

FrancisJosh wrote: »

Hi there,

I know there was a recent crack down on driving with a provisional licence I was just wondering if it is still as strict and how much is the fine?

Unless your in a supped up 1991 fiat punto with unfloor lighting and a spoiler, if you are unfortunate enough to get stopped (unlikely) you will get given out too and sent on your way. If you do get a garda having a bad day and do get a fine most likely it will be less than 200 euro, but also highly unlikely. If you caught with no L plates they will throw the book at you.

I drive most of time with someone with a licence, but dont have someone to drive with me all the time. I never have enough practice to pass if I didnt. I got breathalysed on paddys day, L plates up on my own, didnt say boo to me and just waved me on after.. My test is soon so hopefully I pass, if not I may take up moomats services.

redarmy1929

Moomat wrote: »

On another note, drivers treatment of people with L plates up is shocking. I've recently started an initiative where I practice with learners and act as their sponsor and I didn't realise how impatient people are when they see a learner. All road users have a part to play and we need to create a good environment for learners who are obeying the law to practice safely. We all started somewhere, whether we picked it up in a day or a year, give people a chance.

As a learner driver myself, I fully agree with your point.
It is disgraceful how some people treat learner drivers, some of the experiences I have gone through

Things like:
Driving too close to you, especially approaching a roundabout and meeting the speed limit.
Cutting across you when changing lanes, or coming off roundabouts.
Beeping if you cut out, although that doesn't happen as much these days.

It would almost putting you off driving altogether :rolleyes:

redarmy1929

FrancisJosh wrote: »

Hi there,

I know there was a recent crack down on driving with a provisional licence I was just wondering if it is still as strict and how much is the fine?

Just be careful though, some insurance companies wont pay out if you are in an accident AFAIK.

DoesNotCompute

redarmy1929 wrote: »

As a learner driver myself, I fully agree with your point.
It is disgraceful how some people treat learner drivers, some of the experiences I have gone through

Things like:
Driving too close to you, especially approaching a roundabout and meeting the speed limit.
Cutting across you when changing lanes, or coming off roundabouts.
Beeping if you cut out, although that doesn't happen as much these days.

It would almost putting you off driving altogether :rolleyes:

I am a learner driver too, and I have had the same experience with ignorant impatient drivers.

I've also noticed fully qualified drivers doing all the stupid dangerous things that learner drivers are taught not to do. The problem is that once drivers pass the test, they go back to bad habits, dangerous behaviours.

redarmy1929

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

I am a learner driver too, and I have had the same experience with ignorant impatient drivers.

I've also noticed fully qualified drivers doing all the stupid dangerous things that learner drivers are taught not to do. The problem is that once drivers pass the test, they go back to bad habits, dangerous behaviours.

I think we have come across the same people, the people who cant indicate coming off roundabouts, or cant indicate properly at all.

Those people who use mobile phones while driving deserve an award for stupidity altogether. I wouldnt even be able to turn down the heating while driving as I dont want to lose concentration, while these people have a phone glued to their ear and think they can see whats going on around them.

I can't tell you why

As time goes on I expect it will be the learners who break the laws now driving unaccompanied, who will likely be the ones who will continue to break laws in the future.
"I won't be able to pass the test without driving on my own." and "I need to be drive to work."
Becomes
"I won't get there on time without breaking the speed limit, driving in the bus lane, etc." and "I had to make that phone call for work."

doolox

In sociology there is such a thing as Ingroups and outgroups. Whether the government like it or not, forcing someone to put up L plates is setting them up to be a target for all the bullies etc that are on our roads. It is setting them up as a Outgroup in sociological terms as somehow not "deserving" to be on the road at all.

The same thing was applied to minorities in the 3rd Reich having to wear emblems on their clothes in public denoting them as Jews, Gypsies, Gay or Politically Unreliable etc. This was a much more severe form of labelling and separation of outgroups from ingroups but much the same psychology applies in term of human behaviour and hostility to outgroups in both cases.

The government should look at more discrete forms of warning other road users of the dangers of Learners on our roads rather than setting them up as targets for the rougher elements of driving society.

A quantum leap in improvement in public transport is also needed to alleviate the need for car ownership and driving prevalent in this country, bad planning and ribbon development in semi-rural settings is to blame here.

I can't tell you why

doolox wrote: »

The government should look at more discrete forms of warning other road users of the dangers of Learners on our roads rather than setting them up as targets for the rougher elements of driving society.

A quantum leap in improvement in public transport is also needed to alleviate the need for car ownership and driving prevalent in this country, bad planning and ribbon development in semi-rural settings is to blame here.

Discrete warnings? Maybe in little tiny writing that can only be read from inches away, it could say "Warning, I am a learner. This is my fifth time driving a car and I might randomly stamp on the brake." I am joking with this statement, but the concept as you have pointed out is to warn other drivers that the learner is more likely to make mistakes, to do something random. It's a safety thing. I think the Ls should be bigger and more obvious. Look at any driving school car. They don't hide the fact that a learner is driving the car, because they don't want to be crashed into (that and marketing).

Public transport should be better. But L plates as a Nazi-like form of discrimination, cop on.

redarmy1929

I can't tell you why wrote: »

As time goes on I expect it will be the learners who break the laws now driving unaccompanied, who will likely be the ones who will continue to break laws in the future.
"I won't be able to pass the test without driving on my own." and "I need to be drive to work."
Becomes
"I won't get there on time without breaking the speed limit, driving in the bus lane, etc." and "I had to make that phone call for work."

I think there is a slight difference between people doing stuff that is dangerous like speeding and using mobile phone than people wanting to get experience while driving imo.

I can't tell you why

redarmy1929 wrote: »

I think there is a slight difference between people doing stuff that is dangerous like speeding and using mobile phone than people wanting to get experience while driving imo.

You have brought up an interesting point. "Stuff that is dangerous" like speeding gets you 2 to 4 penalty points and a fine of €80 to €120. ( Dangerous driving can always be added to increase the punishment ). Using a mobile gets you 2 to 4 points and a fine of €60 to €90.
For a fully licenced driver this is 1/6 to 1/3 of their 12 points.

Driving without a licenced driver will get you 1 to 3. This is 1/6 to 1/2 of the 6 allowed penalty points. That is a heavier penalty. The fine can be €80 to €1,000. That too is a heavier penalty.

So, your opinion is different to that of the government, the Gardaí and the Courts. Although everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are more important then others.

jd83

I can't tell you why wrote: »

You have brought up an interesting point. "Stuff that is dangerous" like speeding gets you 2 to 4 penalty points and a fine of €80 to €120. ( Dangerous driving can always be added to increase the punishment ). Using a mobile gets you 2 to 4 points and a fine of €60 to €90.
For a fully licenced driver this is 1/6 to 1/3 of their 12 points.

Driving without a licenced driver will get you 1 to 3. This is 1/6 to 1/2 of the 6 allowed penalty points. That is a heavier penalty. The fine can be €80 to €1,000. That too is a heavier penalty.

So, your opinion is different to that of the government, the Gardaí and the Courts. Although everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are more important then others.

They have a heavier penalty for it that 99.99% of time they dont enforce, and when they rarley do the fine is a lot close to 80 than 1000, where if you are caught speeding or driving dangerously or almost anything else you are done for it. So they obviously have the same opinion or at least the gardai do.

I can't tell you why

jd83 wrote: »

They have a heavier penalty for it that 99.99% of time they dont enforce, and when they rarley do the fine is a lot close to 80 than 1000, where if you are caught speeding or driving dangerously or almost anything else you are done for it. So they obviously have the same opinion or at least the gardai do.

My sources of information:
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ldrivers-to-get-penalty-points-for-driving-alone-26892402.html
Please post your sources for your 99.99% statement.

That said, in all the cases I mentioned the lower amounts are on the spot fines paid within 28 days. The bigger amounts are is the case goes to court.

jd83

Im not saying the law isn't there, im saying they don't enforce it. The article you linked shows a crackdown. For example if they had a "crackdown" on speeding they still enforce it for the rest of the year. Driving unaccompanied they don't.

My sources are myself driving on my own past multiple garda car, though numerous checkpoints and even been breathalyzes with 2 giant L plates on the front and back of my car on my own with a learner permit.

The 5 or 6 L plated cars in my work driving in and out to work every day without been stopped.

You even hear of people who have no intention sitting the test.

Id love to see the statistics for the rest of the year how many were fined.

I can't tell you why

jd83 wrote: »

Id love to see the statistics for the rest of the year how many were fined.

It only takes about 30 seconds to find this article.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/0415/ireland/l-plate-drivers-thousands-fined-for-going-solo-228374.html
But maybe you don't want to know? Maybe you don't want to read a newspaper article. It's more reliable then, "My sources are myself" and "You even hear of people".

3,272 L-plate motorists were issued summonses for driving unaccompanied in 2012.

jd83

My response was based on the independent article you linked??

Am i not entitled to post my own personal experiences and that of friends and colleagues.

If you want real stats, go for a drive up by one of the test centers, ( with your sponser if your a learner of course!) Count the number of learners out driving unaccompanied, practicing for the test. You will see a few cars out with there adis, a few probably actually sitting the actual test and then loads of unaccompanied L drivers.

However here a more reliable source if you want:

"According to the Department of Justice, 2,900 learner drivers detected driving without an experienced driver received a summons in 2013, but only 661 were convicted and fined. The average fine imposed was €123."

Source:http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/unaccompanied-learner-drivers-escape-serious-fines-1.1721004

Motor-Ed

jd83 wrote: »

My response was based on the independent article you linked??

Am i not entitled to post my own personal experiences and that of friends and colleagues.

If you want real stats, go for a drive up by one of the test centers, ( with your sponser if your a learner of course!) Count the number of learners out driving unaccompanied, practicing for the test. You will see a few cars out with there adis, a few probably actually sitting the actual test and then loads of unaccompanied L drivers.

However here a more reliable source if you want:

"According to the Department of Justice, 2,900 learner drivers detected driving without an experienced driver received a summons in 2013, but only 661 were convicted and fined. The average fine imposed was €123."

Source:http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/unaccompanied-learner-drivers-escape-serious-fines-1.1721004

From August the Road Traffic Bill activates on the spot penalty points for unaccompanied learner drivers and the introduction of N (novice) plates.
This will be much easier for Gardai to enforce and you can expect them to.
If you're a Learner and can take a test before Aug do so as you'll have to display the N's for 2 years after passing test.

redarmy1929

Motor-Ed wrote: »

From August the Road Traffic Bill activates on the spot penalty points for unaccompanied learner drivers and the introduction of N (novice) plates.
This will be much easier for Gardai to enforce and you can expect them to.
If you're a Learner and can take a test before Aug do so as you'll have to display the N's for 2 years after passing test.

What are the rules in relation to N plates?

Was looking this morning, all I could see was you have to have it for 2 years and you can get a maximum of 6 penalty points.

ProudDUB

redarmy1929 wrote: »

What are the rules in relation to N plates?

Was looking this morning, all I could see was you have to have it for 2 years and you can get a maximum of 6 penalty points.

Right now, if you sit your test, pass it & get your full license, you no longer have to display L plates on your car. Under the new legislation, people who sit and pass their test from August onwards, will have to display N plates on their cars for two years after they pass their test. You'll get point if you don't. So if you pass your test between now and August, you don't have to worry about N plates. If you do it after August, you will.

redarmy1929

ProudDUB wrote: »

Right now, if you sit your test, pass it & get your full license, you no longer have to display L plates on your car. Under the new legislation, people who sit and pass their test from August onwards, will have to display N plates on their cars for two years after they pass their test. You'll get point if you don't. So if you pass your test between now and August, you don't have to worry about N plates. If you do it after August, you will.

Ah I knew that part, I mean, do you still have to have a full license driver beside you or is it, you just have to have N plates on your car.

I dont see the big issue if thats all it is tbh.

Faith+1

redarmy1929 wrote: »

Ah I knew that part, I mean, do you still have to have a full license driver beside you or is it, you just have to have N plates on your car.

I dont see the big issue if thats all it is tbh.

You can drive by yourself but you have to display N plates.

Liam90

As a learner driver I am shocked everyday by how dangerous other people driving is just to deliberately put me under pressure. The most popular one is tailgating, I get tailgated several times a day.

doolox

Most ordinary people live in the real world where there are thicks, bullies, people under stress etc just waiting to encounter another outgroup to bully, harrass or engage in other dangerous activity on our not-too-safe roads.

The government and civil servants who make our laws don't seem to realise this.

The important thing to do is to blend in as much as possible and not attract attention by being different in any way while on our roads etc.

L plates do not serve the function for which they were intended.

They act as a marker making it too obvious that a certain driver is "different" or somehow "undeserving" to be on the road. An obvious target for the thicker,rougher and less considerate element on our roads.

Legally forcing people to wear L plates on their cars is tantamount to legally enforcing people to invite trouble on themselves, given our poor levels of monitoring and enforcement.

Motor-Ed

doolox wrote: »

Most ordinary people live in the real world where there are thicks, bullies, people under stress etc just waiting to encounter another outgroup to bully, harrass or engage in other dangerous activity on our not-too-safe roads.

The government and civil servants who make our laws don't seem to realise this.

The important thing to do is to blend in as much as possible and not attract attention by being different in any way while on our roads etc.

L plates do not serve the function for which they were intended.

They act as a marker making it too obvious that a certain driver is "different" or somehow "undeserving" to be on the road. An obvious target for the thicker,rougher and less considerate element on our roads.

Legally forcing people to wear L plates on their cars is tantamount to legally enforcing people to invite trouble on themselves, given our poor levels of monitoring and enforcement.

I think an issue with the L plates is that they're not taken down when the Learner is not driving. It gets to the stage where other drivers can't tell if it's a genuine a learner or another member of the family. After August if there are 2 in the family at different stages one Learner and one Novice, the window could end up plastered.

The reaction of other drivers is all through human behaviour.
You're always going to get Full Licence Holder who has no patience and you'll always remember the bad experiences from the road rather than all the others who are patient and thoughtful, these are the majority.

roofer1988

redarmy1929 wrote: »

I think we have come across the same people, the people who cant indicate coming off roundabouts, or cant indicate properly at all.

Those people who use mobile phones while driving deserve an award for stupidity altogether. I wouldnt even be able to turn down the heating while driving as I dont want to lose concentration, while these people have a phone glued to their ear and think they can see whats going on around them.

you shouldnt be on the road if you that nervous. People like you get in the way of busy people trying to make money

kerry4sam

Liam90 wrote: »

As a learner driver I am shocked everyday by how dangerous other people driving is just to deliberately put me under pressure. The most popular one is tailgating, I get tailgated several times a day.

Yeah that was one pet-peeve of mine. Always used happen too on hill-starts when I'd handbrake up; drive riiiiight up behind barely leaving an inch for any roll-back.

I've been passenger in cars with learners when that's happened and the pressure got too much; they got out of car and hopped in back; leaving me as only other driver with no option but to move into drivers seat and drive the car to level ground!

It was just super fun as a female learning to drive with L-plates up I can tell you - stereotypes aplenty. My Late Loving Dad drilled confidence into me starting out driving. It's amazing though that once the L-plates came down I was just another road-user, suddenly little to no intimidation tactics when driving.
I did have the L-plates down before passing test and found it helped my confidence as no-one cared if errors were made, but when they were made with L-plates up people used look real frustrated! L-plates are a target for some people and something needs to be done about that!

Wonder if the RSA will try and find some method of combating this?!

Wishing all Learners Safe Driving though,
kerry4sam

Marenghi

kerry4sam wrote: »

Yeah that was one pet-peeve of mine. Always used happen too on hill-starts when I'd handbrake up; drive riiiiight up behind barely leaving an inch for any roll-back.

I don't get why people see Learners as some sort of target. Just today driving home this guy was overtaken by 3 cars ahead of me. I was coming up behind him and realised he was going under the limit and I was near it so decided overtake him too. After passing him I check my rearview and saw he was gunning it trying overtake me. 3 cars he doesn't mind passing him, but a car with L-plates he sees as some personal insult or challenge he couldn't let slide.

That's another thing I've noticed driving as a learner. When I started I went slow and people overtook me, I assumed because I wasn't at the limit. But now I drive the limit people still overtake me. I guess no matter how fast a learner goes it isn't fast enough for them.

miss no stars

Marenghi wrote: »

I don't get why people see Learners as some sort of target. Just today driving home this guy was overtaken by 3 cars ahead of me. I was coming up behind him and realised he was going under the limit and I was near it so decided overtake him too. After passing him I check my rearview and saw he was gunning it trying overtake me. 3 cars he doesn't mind passing him, but a car with L-plates he sees as some personal insult or challenge he couldn't let slide.

That's another thing I've noticed driving as a learner. When I started I went slow and people overtook me, I assumed because I wasn't at the limit. But now I drive the limit people still overtake me. I guess no matter how fast a learner goes it isn't fast enough for them.

Nah, it's just that people don't want to do only the speed limit. I'm a stickler for not breaking it. I only have my license 6 months and drive a BMW so if I was caught speeding I imagine the book would be thrown at me. It's just not worth speeding. Recently I was coming along the James Larkin road coming from town. Speed limit is 50 until you get to st Anne's. Most people ignore that and do 60 at least (though tbh it is very badly signposted). I was driving along, after dark, doing 50 religiously. I was accounting for the speedo undermeasurement, too, so was bang on at the limit yet I had a line of frustrated people behind who hadn't had a chance to overtake. When we passed the Garda traffic corps van sitting quietly with lights out I'd say they were glad to be doing the limit rather than being above it. They certainly backed the deck off after passing it. I just try to remember that if others want to risk the points on their license, the fine, the chance of mowing down some kid - let them. Nothing they can do can make you take that risk too.

jd83

I have all the same bad experiences as a learner. People drive up your ass when your going the speed limit. Cutting out etc. Ive kinda gotten used to paying no attention to them now. I went through all the stages of dealing with these idiots, been nervous, wanting to get out of the car explain what the giant L on the back of my car means, now I just ignore them.

If i end up with N plates so be it, ill do the same.

redarmy1929

roofer1988 wrote: »

you shouldnt be on the road if you that nervous. People like you get in the way of busy people trying to make money

Are you serious?

roofer1988

redarmy1929 wrote: »

Are you serious?

Yes phones should be banned when driving.But if you too nervous to turn down heating,get out of the way.Slow drivers cause accidents too

redarmy1929

roofer1988 wrote: »

Yes phones should be banned when driving.But if you too nervous to turn down heating,get out of the way.Slow drivers cause accidents too

I didnt say I was too nervous to turn the heating down, I was just pointing out I'd wouldnt want to lose concentration to do it, unlike mobile phone users.

I didnt say I was a slow driver either, I obey the speed limit, and it still doesnt stop people driving too close to me. Just because they might be in a hurry doesnt give them the right to be dangerous and kill people on the road.

DoesNotCompute

roofer1988 wrote: »

you shouldnt be on the road if you that nervous. People like you get in the way of busy people trying to make money

And people who are too "busy" to obey the rules of the road because they are only interested in making money, are in danger of causing more deaths on our roads. It's because of people like you that the RSA are making learner drivers jump through hoops to become fully qualified.

roofer1988

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

And people who are too "busy" to obey the rules of the road because they are only interested in making money, are in danger of causing more deaths on our roads. It's because of people like you that the RSA are making learner drivers jump through hoops to become fully qualified.

driving ten years and never had an accident. Never said i drive dangerous. Im not the reason rsa make learner drivers jump through hoops. I have no penalty points

miss no stars

To be entirely fair, you're supposed to be able to competently operate the secondary controls during the test. If you can't glance into the car for a second to find the temperature dial, then look back at the road while moving the dial, you're hardly at test standard. There's a level of automaticness about driving that you absolutely need. Like what if you're in an unfamiliar car and it starts to pour raining, you need to turn on the air and the rear window heating. A quick glance and you're sorted. Having to pull over just to turn air or heating on is incompetent. Like, it only takes a second to glance and find the button. Maybe two or three glances if you don't spot it immediately. And if you're so nervous about looking away, how do you check mirrors? If its that you don't want to take your hand off the wheel, how do you change gears?

I'm completely against using phones when driving but I'm sorry, people who are too nervous to turn down the heating aren't competent drivers. Safe, maybe? Competent - no. People on phones can be simultaneously competent and unsafe drivers.