B5 passat wont stay true, keeps pulling

Thetruthking

Hi I have a B5 Passat

It's a 1999 1.9tdi

The car has been pulling to the lift this last year, it'sdriving me crazy, firstly I toke it to a mechanic who tracked it and it made nodiff, to be sure I also toke it to FastFit a few months later and they told methe tracking is true they couldn't help me, I got a lot of work done with mymechanic and it is still the same, I got new bottom ball joints about 8 monthsago 2 each side and 2 anti roll bar links. This made no difference, so a weeklate he fitted 4 top link arms, 2 each side and tracked it and still nodifference, last month got tie and track rod ends and it's still the same,changed wheels and tyres still the same and today I got new shocks springs andtop bits (all in the pic I uploaded) and also was tracked today and it's stillthe same :-( can anyone please please help me, I have the car 4 years and itwas never crashed or anything like that but since this prob started I've beento loads diff mechanics etc and spent a lot and can't sort it, any help at allwould be greatly appreciated

greasepalm

do the finger test on level straight road shove fingers in left and right wheel half way up and note readings,the wheel with the smaller gap might have gone back 1/4--1/2 inch possibly causing car to veer.
that would be measured around wheel arch .

mickdw

Is it a constant pull or is it only when the car is leaning that way i.e. on country roads?
Does it pull when suspension is settled or is it related to going over bumps?
If you were to drive on the right hand side of a crowned road, would it pull left or right?
Did you have any work done or wheels changed around the time the pull started?
Did you possibly bend anything?
Anything unusual to be seen in alignment report?
Any unusual tyre wear?
Does it vary depending on acceleration / braking etc
Have you got large wheels fitted?
Have you got wheels with an incorrect offset fitted?

Thetruthking

greasepalm wrote: »

do the finger test on level straight road shove fingers in left and right wheel half way up and note readings,the wheel with the smaller gap might have gone back 1/4--1/2 inch possibly causing car to veer.
that would be measured around wheel arch .

I will check that between the arches and wheels thanks

Thetruthking

mickdw wrote: »

Is it a constant pull or is it only when the car is leaning that way i.e. on country roads?
Does it pull when suspension is settled or is it related to going over bumps?
If you were to drive on the right hand side of a crowned road, would it pull left or right?
Did you have any work done or wheels changed around the time the pull started?
Did you possibly bend anything?
Anything unusual to be seen in alignment report?
Any unusual tyre wear?
Does it vary depending on acceleration / braking etc
Have you got large wheels fitted?
Have you got wheels with an incorrect offset fitted?

Hi thank you for the reply,
I just have normal 15 inch steel wheels I don't know what you mean by offset fitted?
Their is no rattles over bumps or anything like that
Yes it seams to affect me more when not accelerating, it happens on all roads even on the dead straight motorway and always pulls the same way, although when I got it it used to pull to the right but never bad, it all started a long time ago when I got my top arms changed, that was about a year before everything mentioned in my original post, I didn't get a correct alignment I went to FastFit who checked it with 2 things that went onto each wheel and a mirror and focus and they said it was spot on and that as the camber can not be moved on a Passat their was no need for a lazer test,
In regards to tyre ware when it used to pull to the right the inside if the drivers wheel whore down a lot,
This has me and all mechanics confused, everything has been changed etc, their looks like their is a grove to adjust the rear front bottom ball joint arm each side just a tiny bit (where the arm connects to the frame) I mentioned this to FastFit the second time I was their but they didn't seam too interested they said it's prob the age of the car so I toke that as an insult and didn't go to them since, I will take it to a country road and drive on the wrong side of the road on a sloped road road (where it is sloped from middle to both sides) and see if it still pulls, what would it mean if it didn't? The most noticeable thing is it's when your going handy you feel it, when giving it plenty of acceleration it seams grand, but it's a bad pull that would easially pull you onto the hard shoulder in seconds

greasepalm

wheel gone back would wear tyre on inside.

Thetruthking

I understand, thank you, what part would cause this would you know? what would I tell my mechanic to check would you know?

FGR

I've had this problem (B5.5 passat pulling to the left) consistently until recently. Many of the mechs I went to first were stumped. One mechanic even suggested that I get my rear torsion beam replaced as it was 'bent'.

Last mechanic I went to took a look and spotted that, amongst all of the work done, they ignored one single control arm. As soon as he replaced it the car started driving true.

Absolutely head wrecking that I spent so much money on other mechanics before this guy. At least I didn't have to replace that beam.

One fear I have is that if I get new tyres and track the car..that the problem might come back! Hope you'll get a fix for this OP. It can be infuriating.

greasepalm

trying to think what lower suspension is on that car,single lower wishbone or 2 alloy arms,as to whats bent ? hard to say.

http://www.fcpeuro.com/products/audi-vw-suspension-control-arms-set-of-2-front-lower-front-4d0407151px2

those alloy arms are always getting replaced bit like the cv boots.

Thetruthking

its 2 alloy arms sort of like what is in that pic?

Thetruthking

its the first 2 from the left in this pic http://image.made-in-china.com/43f34j00CsbQfZDPCYcn/Control-Arm-for-Audi-A6-A4-Vw-Passat-B5-Oe-8d0498998s1.jpg

greasepalm

i know them only so well,replaced 2 on car last week,now they come in a set of four left and right cheaper than buying one at a time.

Cogsy88

Possibly a Seized brake calliper. Check dem jus to make sure.

mickdw

If everything such as bent components can be ruled out, I think its worth checking the raised toe during alignment. Im 90% sure that those model passat have a requirement to check toe both when supported on the wheels and with front suspension raised. I believe the suspension design creates an unusual situation in that the toe in / out can vary wildly depending on ride height if set up wrong and this wont show by simply setting the toe in while supported on the wheels.
From what Ive heard, most aftermarket places have never heard of this and even at a main dealers you would need to request this check to be done as it shouldnt need checking apart from when components have been replaced.
I will check the details on that tomorrow.
Its still the least likely issue as given the age, it is still likely that there is a dodgy component in there somewhere.

Thetruthking

would ya recon their the issue? what about where the back one of the 2 go in I seen their is a grove where the bolt goes in and they can be moved the tiny bit in or out id say?

Thetruthking

mickdw wrote: »

If everything such as bent components can be ruled out, I think its worth checking the raised toe during alignment. Im 90% sure that those model passat have a requirement to check toe both when supported on the wheels and with front suspension raised. I believe the suspension design creates an unusual situation in that the toe in / out can vary wildly depending on ride height if set up wrong and this wont show by simply setting the toe in while supported on the wheels.
From what Ive heard, most aftermarket places have never heard of this and even at a main dealers you would need to request this check to be done as it shouldnt need checking apart from when components have been replaced.
I will check the details on that tomorrow.
Its still the least likely issue as given the age, it is still likely that there is a dodgy component in there somewhere.

Thank you,
I agree their is most likely a dodgy component
in regards to the toe etc when raised I defo would agree that my mechanic and fastfit here don't know that? if it was out when raised and norm when on the ground how would this be fixed? I don't see how it could be changed if you get me? their a funny set up on these cars,,

Thetruthking

Cogsy88 wrote: »

Possibly a Seized brake calliper. Check dem jus to make sure.

that's what I tought myself but 100% sure none of them are ive checked them and tyres and tyre pressure all the silly things a million times at this stage :-(

Cogsy88

Thetruthking wrote: »

that's what I tought myself but 100% sure none of them are ive checked them and tyres and tyre pressure all the silly things a million times at this stage :-(

How did you check them?

mickdw

Just a follow up on the raised toe or toe curve. As I say, you would make sure all components are in order first but worth checking all the same.

Procedure:

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/toe-curve-adjustment-various-vag-group-vehicles

Thetruthking

Cogsy88 wrote: »

How did you check them?

I lifted each wheel on its own and spun them to make sure their was no friction then I got someone to gently apply the breaks and I checked they where griping, also when I changed my front and rear pads last year I toke each piston out to the last and removed the boot and cleaned the pistons in the calipers and greased them and put the boots back on, the back ones where tricky the piston does bit push in I had to buy a wee tool to twist them in, it's 100% not the brakes!

Thetruthking

mickdw wrote: »

Just a follow up on the raised toe or toe curve. As I say, you would make sure all components are in order first but worth checking all the same.

Procedure:

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/toe-curve-adjustment-various-vag-group-vehicles

Thank you I will check that out now

Thetruthking

One thing I never mentioned was I had NCT their at the start of march and it passed no probs?? I don't get it at all? Even the mechanic is confused and I think sick of seeing my car!!

Thetruthking

mickdw wrote: »

Just a follow up on the raised toe or toe curve. As I say, you would make sure all components are in order first but worth checking all the same.

Procedure:

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/toe-curve-adjustment-various-vag-group-vehicles

I had a look at that, very interesting I never knew or heard of doing that, it looks line an expensive main dealer job ( does anyone know anywhere in the north east that can do this at a reasonable cost?

mickdw

Check all components and when happy get a main dealer to do that full alignment including raised toe. Will not be mad expensive. I seen alot of mechanics say that its a load of crap and would make little to no difference but ive seen an a4 that was darting in all directions on bumps cured by setting this.

Thetruthking

mickdw wrote: »

Check all components and when happy get a main dealer to do that full alignment including raised toe. Will not be mad expensive. I seen alot of mechanics say that its a load of crap and would make little to no difference but ive seen an a4 that was darting in all directions on bumps cured by setting this.

I think I will do exactly what you said their, its bugging me, its costly on cambered roads to the left but still bad enough on straight roads,, I might possibility need to find a better mechanic!
I appreciate all of your help on this mick

greasepalm

no mention if you did the finger test??

Thetruthking

greasepalm wrote: »

no mention if you did the finger test??

Hi I was not sure what to do but I got a ruler and measured from the top down of the wheel area to the tyre each side and from the back in and the front in and they are all the same each side, as in from what I can make out no wheel has moved back (

I wonder if I got one of them lazer scans would it tell anything? Do they test camber and all of that I've never seen one as I said before I think my mechanic only checked the toe and same with the other place as he told me their was no need for lazer 4 wheel test as he can't adjust camber on a Passat but I seen online you can a tiny bit? Do these reports give much info? Can them tell if something moved back etc

mickdw

Thetruthking wrote: »

Hi I was not sure what to do but I got a ruler and measured from the top down of the wheel area to the tyre each side and from the back in and the front in and they are all the same each side, as in from what I can make out no wheel has moved back (

I wonder if I got one of them lazer scans would it tell anything? Do they test camber and all of that I've never seen one as I said before I think my mechanic only checked the toe and same with the other place as he told me their was no need for lazer 4 wheel test as he can't adjust camber on a Passat but I seen online you can a tiny bit? Do these reports give much info? Can them tell if something moved back etc

I thought you had a full alignment report at this stage. That is first thing. It will give alot of info other than toe setting and would help identify a bent component.
In relation to camber, while its generally not adjustable without fitting adjustable control arms, some cars allow slight movement of the subframe to 'balance' the values from side to side.
It appears your mechanic has only been guessing as to the issue having only being dealing with toe settings.
Go to someone who knows what they are doing.

Thetruthking

I understand, yes my mechanic only checked toe but as the other place said it cant be moved I never got it done!!
I will get a full lazer text on Saturday and I will post the results to here and let you know how I get on

Tea drinker

Are the subframe bolts tensioned enough, and is it in the correct position?
There are steel pegs that can be used to align it.

But I think someone hasn't set camber right or some such.

Chimaera

The raised toe is a good suggestion. Also get the rear alignment checked - if this is off it could cause the car to veer while the front is perfect. You'd need to request for it to be done, since there's no adjustment available on the rear most places won't do it by default.

The front camber can't be adjusted on individual wheels, but it can be balanced between both by moving the front subframe. VW have a special tool for doing this which uses a screw to push the subframe left or right until it's centred. If you're getting a dealer alignment done, make sure they do this too. Given that the subframe is supposed to be dropped to do the big lower arms, this could be a culprit.

Whatever you do, make sure all the balljoints and bushings are in good shape first. Last time I checked the local VW dealer in Limerick wanted €180 for a full alignment check.

Another thing that can make the steering pull (though not the vehicle itself) in my experience is a worn CV joint.

Thetruthking

hi all got this sorted, I toke it to a vw garage and they realigned my subframe, apparentally it was moved when replaceing bottom arms,, the car is now perfect, cost was 90 euros tho and toke them just over 2 hours to give me my car back,, they also did a full 4 wheel alinement and checked cambers etc, they said its at factory spec now and the car drives straight
Thanks for everyone who helped me I appreciate it alot

mickdw

Thetruthking wrote: »

hi all got this sorted, I toke it to a vw garage and they realigned my subframe, apparentally it was moved when replaceing bottom arms,, the car is now perfect, cost was 90 euros tho and toke them just over 2 hours to give me my car back,, they also did a full 4 wheel alinement and checked cambers etc, they said its at factory spec now and the car drives straight
Thanks for everyone who helped me I appreciate it alot

Excellent. A full alignment report would have highlighted this straight away as your camber would have been very different from side to side.
Just shows that so called alignment when they only look at toe settings are not worth crap.

Thetruthking

I kno I couldn't believe it! the subframe was 2mm to the left so it made my wheels sit wrong,,, sort of like / / if ya get me!

im still shocked the subframe could be moved and set I never tought this could be done, according to the vw man its ok to loosen one side to do a bottom arm but when both sides are loosened for any reason (arms, engine etc) that its very hard to get them on right

well worth the 90 quid,,, altho v dear my car is perfect now thanks again all

greasepalm

great news the holes in the bushings are bigger than the bolts fitted to allow movement if needed.:D

MercMad

Thats great you have it sorted, and good information from the other contributors. The old saying of "do one side at a time" holds true.

I was about to pitch in just FYI but one some of the Mercs when you replace the bottom two arms the inner bush is the be left loose until all weight is one the vehicle before final torque is set. This can cause uneven ride height and steering issues and is also the major cause of inner bush failure. I have seen so many of these arms fitted on a two post ramp with no regard for the procedure.

Thetruthking

I understand, I wonder if that is the case on a Passat as the rear bottom arm (their is 2 each side) has a small grove in it where the bolt goes, as if to allow for movement, id say that could be what it is for? can anyone confirm this?

Chimaera

There's no adjustment in any of the arms on the Passat where the bolt to the car or the uprights. The behaviour of the suspension is quite complex and carefully designed, so allowing that kind of adjustment gives mechanics too many ways to inadvertently make a mess of it. It's a little bit of a pain for maintenance, but when it's all working properly it makes for a very nice drive.