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  • 01-04-2014 11:42pm
    #1
    ConorD21
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭


    I chose business biology history as my preferred subject choices but changed my mind from biology to art and now it is very unlikely that i will get the business art and history trio so i can either choose history business biology or drop history and do art biology and business , some please help on the subjects , what should i do any advice on the subjects?


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    #2
    thelad95
    Registered Users Posts: 7,812 ✭✭✭thelad95


    What are you like at art? How did you do in the JC/mocks (not sure what year you are in)? History for Leaving Cert is very difficult unless you have a great passion for the subject. Far more detailed than the Junior Cert and unlike Junior Cert it's all essays so there is no handy short Q's to pile up marks on. There is a comprehension type question on the paper but it requires a lot of critical thinking and not just plucking the answer off the page.


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    #3
    d1234
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭d1234


    Hi, I'm in fifth year and I'm currently doing business, biology and art.

    Business is very manageable for leaving cert, though it is really difficult to get an A1 in the leaving, though I suppose every subject is. It is a very easy course to understand and doesn't take long to get through. A lot of it really is junior cert work, just elaborated.

    Biology is a tough old cookie alright but as I like it, it isn't really that bad. If you enjoy the subject and are prepared to work, you should consider it. There are some sections in particular which have a good chance of coming up and the papers repeat in some ways.

    Art is a difficult subject and is very different to the junior cert. It involves studying artists and a project based exam. It is extremely difficult to get an A in and in fact any high enough grade. If you are aiming high, I personally wouldn't consider it. Also I would say to you that you should have a good ability at art and a good teacher is also key. However, I enjoy art as to me it isn't a subject at all - it's more a break from the rest.

    Although I don't do history, I do believe there is a serious workload involved including learning essays. The plus is that 20% of your marks go towards a project which you can have bagged before the exam.

    Best of luck with your decision.


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    #4
    ConorD21
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ConorD21


    I got a C in higher level in art in the junior cert, now currently in TY i dont want to do business biology history as the workload seems to much would rather have art in there as sort of a break from all the intense written work. We're still going through our choices but i dont think it will turn out in my favour but hopefully does, anybody else have any advice? Thanks btw thelad95 and d1234


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    #5
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭oswinoswald


    I don't do business so I can't say much about that, but I do do history, biology and art.

    Biology is a handy subject to have. It's just memorizing, there is nothing to complicated to understand and if you work hard enough revising it an A is really quite obtainable.

    Art is great, 37.5% of the exam goes to history of art. There is a lot of choice on the exam paper so you only have to cover a small section of the course. The art exam itself is also handy because you get your exam paper 4 weeks before the exam so you have lots of time to practice your still life, life drawing and craft/design. If you're good at art at all, you should do it for your lc!

    History is the subject I would least recommend. I loved it for the junior cert but I find leaving cert history boring. It's very political and economic, there is very little social history I the course.
    It's totally essay-based. There is so much to learn. 20% of the exam is a research study on a topic of your choice (a 1500 word essay)
    Sorry if I make history sound terrible.

    I wish I had done business! I know they say 'choose the subjects you love!' but by sixth year you will be wishing that you had chosen the subjects that could get you an A! Trust me!


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    #6
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭oswinoswald


    ConorD21 wrote: »
    I got a C in higher level in art in the junior cert, now currently in TY i dont want to do business biology history as the workload seems to much would rather have art in there as sort of a break from all the intense written work. We're still going through our choices but i dont think it will turn out in my favour but hopefully does, anybody else have any advice? Thanks btw thelad95 and d1234

    I didn't see this before my earlier post. Honestly, if you're hoping to use art for points in your lc I wouldn't do it with a C in junior cert. Only 1% of people get an A in LC art.


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    #7
    ConorD21
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ConorD21


    oswinoswald wrote: »
    I didn't see this before my earlier post. Honestly, if you're hoping to use art for points in your lc I wouldn't do it with a C in junior cert. Only 1% of people get an A in LC art.

    I wasn't going to use it solely as a points subjects just a nice class to have a break from all the written work


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    #8
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    Don't you have a counselor at your school?


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    #9
    ConorD21
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ConorD21


    Yes but i already talked to her she wasn't any help, i get more help here


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    #10
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    oswinoswald wrote: »
    I didn't see this before my earlier post. Honestly, if you're hoping to use art for points in your lc I wouldn't do it with a C in junior cert. Only 1% of people get an A in LC art.

    Around one per cent get an A1. Around five percent get an A...which is the lowest of any Higher subject.

    I largely concur with what's been said. Business manageable, but highest grades a bit tricky and course very long. History requires learning a lot of facts, writing three 4-page+ essays, and having good writing skills. I ended up dropping it as it was my ninth subject, but I really enjoyed it. Biology has a very high A-rate for a subject that so many people take, and, although the course is very long, the material is unchallenging.


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    #11
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    ConorD21 wrote: »
    Yes but i already talked to her she wasn't any help, i get more help here
    I well believe you. School counseling is not properly understood or practiced in Ireland.


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    #12
    ConorD21
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ConorD21


    The thoughts of doing big essays for history is turning me off it now , i feel more inclined to go for the biology business art trio


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    #13
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Popescu wrote: »
    I well believe you. School counseling is not properly understood or practiced in Ireland.

    It's understood alright, but not by the DES, so much so that it was one of the many things cut in the last round of cuts.


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    #14
    Calvin
    Registered Users Posts: 6,222 ✭✭✭Calvin


    If you're any decent at Business and the accounting side in the JC, consider doing Accounting. It's a fairly manageable subject and it runs in the basis of the JC rules. Some of the business and accounting overlap, such as the graph in Q8 Marginal Costings.

    Good luck!!


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    #15
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    spurious wrote: »
    It's understood alright, but not by the DES, so much so that it was one of the many things cut in the last round of cuts.
    No, school counseling is not understood in Ireland. Teachers take a few courses by people who follow the medical model and the so-called school counselors then attempt psychotherapy with students for which they are not qualified. They have no training in nor any concept of comprehensive competency-based counseling for academics, careers, and interpersonal domains which can prepare students for success in school and life.


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    #16
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Popescu wrote: »
    No, school counseling is not understood in Ireland. Teachers take a few courses by people who follow the medical model and the so-called school counselors then attempt psychotherapy with students for which they are not qualified. They have no training in nor any concept of comprehensive competency-based counseling for academics, careers, and interpersonal domains which can prepare students for success in school and life.
    Not sure how much you know about the system.
    Vocational schools in Dublin, for example have a dedicated full-time psychological service, which covers all sorts of psychological and (up to) psychiatric issues. It is available to all CDETB students, PLC or mainstream.

    The 'guidance counsellor' which used to be in most schools, before the cuts, was a teacher sent on a one year course. The 'counselling' part played a very small role as they were there to 'counsel' in relation to career choice and often completely overwhelmed when it came to counselling in general. Ironically, it is the dearth of counselling (in a non careers realm) that causes most problems in schools.


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    #17
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    spurious wrote: »
    Not sure how much you know about the system.
    Vocational schools in Dublin, for example have a dedicated full-time psychological service, which covers all sorts of psychological and (up to) psychiatric issues. It is available to all CDETB students, PLC or mainstream.
    Schools are where students should be learning and teachers should be teaching, not providing psychiatric therapy by untrained H.Dip personnel.
    spurious wrote: »
    The 'guidance counsellor' which used to be in most schools, before the cuts, was a teacher sent on a one year course. The 'counselling' part played a very small role as they were there to 'counsel' in relation to career choice and often completely overwhelmed when it came to counselling in general. Ironically, it is the dearth of counselling (in a non careers realm) that causes most problems in schools.
    A whole year's course! Wow! Can they do psychoanalysis after that? LOL


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    #18
    ConorD21
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ConorD21


    Less arguing more help / advice please


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    #19
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Popescu wrote: »
    Schools are where students should be learning and teachers should be teaching, not providing psychiatric therapy by untrained H.Dip personnel.

    A whole year's course! Wow! Can they do psychoanalysis after that? LOL

    I think that's a very ill-considered position.

    School has evolved to being about more than merely academic learning.

    Their role isn't to psychoanalyse. It's to identify someone who's at risk, deal with them in the short term, and then put in place a means of resolving the problem in the longer term (eg referring the student to a councillor). As well as that, they provide support to students without deeper psychological problems but who may be distressed because of a recent death in the family, break-up with girl-/boyfriend, exam stress, etc. The mental well being of a student plays a significant part in their learning, and having a staff member with training and time is essential for providing appropriate support.


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    #20
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    I think that's a very ill-considered position.
    My position is completely considered.
    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    School has evolved to being about more than merely academic learning.
    Had you read my earlier post, you would see that I advocated for a comprehensive competency-based guidance program covering not only academics but also career and interpersonal skills to equip students for success in school and life.
    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    Their role isn't to psychoanalyse. It's to identify someone who's at risk, deal with them in the short term, and then put in place a means of resolving the problem in the longer term (eg referring the student to a councillor).
    Any good teacher can spot a student who is having trouble and a school should have in place the procedure for making a recommendation for assessment by a professional psychologist or therapist.
    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    As well as that, they provide support to students without deeper psychological problems but who may be distressed because of a recent death in the family, break-up with girl-/boyfriend, exam stress, etc. The mental well being of a student plays a significant part in their learning, and having a staff member with training and time is essential for providing appropriate support.
    This is not the responsibility of the school and guidance counselors do not have the academic foundation for or experience to be developing relationships with students to deal with emotional problems. A good guidance curriculum will provide all students with the skills necessary to deal with normal stress that comes with interpersonal relationships, academic expectations and career choices. Guidance counselors are supposed to be spending 90% of the time teaching 90% of the students not 10% in the false notion that they are trained in saving lives.


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    #21
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Popescu wrote: »
    Any good teacher can spot a student who is having trouble and a school should have in place the procedure for making a recommendation for assessment by a professional psychologist or therapist.

    This is not the responsibility of the school and guidance counselors do not have the academic foundation for or experience to be developing relationships with students to deal with emotional problems. A good guidance curriculum will provide students with the skills necessary to deal with normal stress that comes with interpersonal relationships, academic expectations and career choices.

    I don't believe that the first is true, and it's often about having a dedicated person whom the student can go to.

    It's a responsibility that the school should have, IMO. The counsellors involvement would be short-term. A guidance curriculum could never achieve your goal of providing all students with all skills.


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    #22
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    I don't believe that the first is true, and it's often about having a dedicated person whom the student can go to.
    You are mistaken.
    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    It's a responsibility that the school should have, IMO. The counsellors involvement would be short-term. A guidance curriculum could never achieve your goal of providing all students with all skills.
    Proper guidance curricula will teach all students the necessary skills to understand their academic strengths and weaknesses and how to be more successful in study, test-taking, monitoring their progress, etc. Counselors can also teach students how to explore careers, their own interests and aptitudes as well as choosing appropriate subjects in secondary school and third level education (the subject of this thread's opening post). Good counselors also spend their time teaching all the students about interpersonal strategies for healthy relationships as well as avoiding bad decisions in life and how to seek support from family and friends whose responsibility it is rather than a school's.


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    #23
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Popescu wrote: »
    Proper guidance curricula will teach all students the necessary skills to understand their academic strengths and weaknesses and how to be more successful in study, test-taking, monitoring their progress, etc. Counselors can also teach students how to explore careers, their own interests and aptitudes as well as choosing appropriate subjects in secondary school and third level education (the subject of this thread's opening post). Good counselors also spend their time teaching all the students about interpersonal strategies for healthy relationships as well as avoiding bad decisions in life and how to seek support from family and friends whose responsibility it is rather than a school's.

    I don't agree.


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    #24
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Popescu wrote: »
    Schools are where students should be learning and teachers should be teaching, not providing psychiatric therapy by untrained H.Dip personnel.

    These are not teachers. They are not staff of the schools/colleges. These are psychologists and sometimes, but not often, psychiatrists. It is a professional service, nothing to do with teaching. They are specific to the CDETB, as I said earlier.
    Most Irish second-level schools have had their guidance service, such as it was, decimated. There are very very few 'full-time' guidance personnel in schools nowadays. The cuts strike again.


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    #25
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    spurious wrote: »
    These are not teachers. They are not staff of the schools/colleges. ...
    School counselors who should have a Guidance endorsement on their credential are teachers and members of the faculty.


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    #26
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Popescu wrote: »
    School counselors who should have a Guidance endorsement on their credential are teachers and members of the faculty.

    Faculty? What country are you talking about?
    I am talking about Ireland, specifically schools in Dublin, under the remit of the CDETB.


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    #27
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    spurious wrote: »
    Faculty? What country are you talking about?
    I am talking about Ireland, specifically schools in Dublin, under the remit of the CDETB.
    faculty
    a. the entire teaching and administrative force of a university, college, or school.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faculty


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    #28
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Popescu wrote: »
    faculty
    a. the entire teaching and administrative force of a university, college, or school.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faculty

    I know what the word means. My point was I have never heard anyone use it in relation to second level schools in Ireland. Hence my asking what country you are talking about.


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    #29
    ConorD21
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ConorD21


    History or biology??


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    #30
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭oswinoswald


    ConorD21 wrote: »
    History or biology??

    bio, definitely! It's relatively interesting, and easy to understand. All you have to do is learn it.

    Only do history if you are really passionate about the subject. You must be good at English too. There is a vast amount to learn and it's completely essay-based, except from the document question, but even that isn't totally straightforward.


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    #31
    Popescu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Popescu


    ConorD21 wrote: »
    History or biology??
    I would need to know you better before I could advise you on the choice of subject. For example, what career interests you?


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