Commencement Notice and accompanying documentation

clonagh

Hi All,

Has anyone submitted a Commencement Notice since the the new rules came into force on the 1st March?

I was wondering what sort of documentation needs to be submitted (specifically drawings and or calculations) in relation to an extension onto an existing dwelling?

Many Thanks...

DOCARCH

We all await responses with anticipation..:)..and I am not being sarcastic!

4Sticks

It is very early days and you can be sure that the local authority building control departments will still be grappling with this question too.
You will have BCO's asking themselves "have we been issued with adequate information to satisfy SI 9 2014 here ?". I expect to see inconsistencies as different officers will take differing views

My hope for this thread is that over the coming months as posters share practical experience of this very issue that a clearer picture will emerge

Gumbo

At the off set in would lodge foundation plans and proposed on site drainage. And then add the construction drawings for the rest as you progress b

In the BCMS, the original applicant can log in and upload additional info.

clonagh

I had a chat with a Building Control Officer in relation to the required documentation and although she was extremely nice, she hadn't received a new submission yet and she didn't really know what she wanted, which I found to be crazy, her reply bordered along the lines of "I'll know a proper submission when I see it". She also said that whats required could vary from one Building control Officer to another.

My main problem is that my client is asking me how much additional work there'll be and how much it'll cost...

4Sticks

I would suggest as a min

Existing

1. Floor plans
2. Elevations
3. Roof Plan
4. Section ( one min )
5. Siteplan including all levels , underground services and overhead services

Proposed

1. Floor plans
2. Elevations
3. Roof Plan
4. Section ( one min )
5. Siteplan including all levels , underground services and overhead services
6. 1/10 scale junction details especially existing/proposed connections
7. 1/10 scale details substructure / drainage intersections
8. DEAP calculations

DOCARCH

4Sticks wrote: »

DEAP calculations.

Would this apply to an extension to an existing house given the Part L suggests that elemental u-values are acceptable (for extensions to existing houses)?

Even if you tried to do DEAP calculation for the extension alone, say for a 42 m.sq., with 21 m.sq. ground floor and 21 m.sq. first floor, it would very hard to achieve/show compliance given the floor areas.

4Sticks

You don't have to show an overall compliance for energy/C02/renewables provision for extensions like you do for new builds but

DEAP calcs would help show compliance with

a) windows - (complex arrangement in Part L for extensions)
b) replacement boiler min % efficiency
c) new build specifications can be included / provided to LA in DEAP calcs.

DOCARCH

4Sticks wrote: »

c) new build specifications can be included / provided to LA in DEAP calcs.

...or simply u-value calculations for new build elements (roof, walls, floors, etc.)?

Don't worry...not trick questions...just trying to get clear in my own head what may be required.

4Sticks

Were on the same page I think. In lieu of a typed up spec or even notes on a drawing one could provide the elementals spec together with U Values in the DEAP software which generates a report.
Remember - with a CN we are demonstrating compliance as required by law SI 9 2014 to a BCO. Not providing tender or building contract documents.;)

4Sticks

kceire wrote: »

At the off set in would lodge foundation plans and proposed on site drainage. And then add the construction drawings for the rest as you progress b

In the BCMS, the original applicant can log in and upload additional info.

And if they don't follow up how will this be tracked?

(Rhetorical)

galwaytt

4Sticks wrote: »

I would suggest as a min

Existing

1. Floor plans
2. Elevations
3. Roof Plan
4. Section ( one min )
5. Siteplan including all levels , underground services and overhead services

Proposed

1. Floor plans
2. Elevations
3. Roof Plan
4. Section ( one min )
5. Siteplan including all levels , underground services and overhead services
6. 1/10 scale junction details especially existing/proposed connections
7. 1/10 scale details substructure / drainage intersections
8. DEAP calculations

Pardon my ignorance, but 1/10 scale junctions...? Are you telling me this is on paper ???

BryanF

galwaytt wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but 1/10 scale junctions...? Are you telling me this is on paper ???

Galwaytt? 1/10 details. Are you telling us you never prepared or been instructed to work to such construction stage info?

galwaytt

BryanF wrote: »

Galwaytt? 1/10 details. Are you telling us you never prepared or been instructed to work to such construction stage info?

I don't know if there's a crossed wire here, but all our work is done and issued at 1:1 in cad. We don't issue any construction drawings on paper, and almost exclusively by email. There again we are only responsible for a certain amount of the build, so don't deliver turnkey builds. Work outside our specific remit is usually done by the client architect etc.

sydthebeat

We always draw in 1:1

But we publish as paper sheets so obviously 1:1 doesn't work.

1:10 would be a standard scale for a detail.

NBar

query about neighbour who started an extension at the rear of their house, should they have complied or are they exempt?

sydthebeat

NBar wrote: »

query about neighbour who started an extension at the rear of their house, should they have complied or are they exempt?

Depends on a few factors, most importantly the size of the extension.

Gumbo

NBar wrote: »

query about neighbour who started an extension at the rear of their house, should they have complied or are they exempt?

Did they need planning?

DOCARCH

NBar wrote: »

query about neighbour who started an extension at the rear of their house, should they have complied or are they exempt?

Complied with what?

JPW81

4Sticks wrote: »

I would suggest as a min

Existing

1. Floor plans
2. Elevations
3. Roof Plan
4. Section ( one min )
5. Siteplan including all levels , underground services and overhead services

Proposed

1. Floor plans
2. Elevations
3. Roof Plan
4. Section ( one min )
5. Siteplan including all levels , underground services and overhead services
6. 1/10 scale junction details especially existing/proposed connections
7. 1/10 scale details substructure / drainage intersections
8. DEAP calculations

I would think that a specification document would need to be included or very detailed notes would need to be shown on all drawings. However when you consider the amount of individual components and materials that are needed to build even the most basic house in accordance with the current regulations then I believe that notes on a drawing is not the best way to present all the necessary information.

Some worthy/ unworthy additional information to add to list?
Detailed specification document. (Request CE marks and outline the required declared performance values for all components and materials)
List of required/proposed tests. (Site investigation/ Drains/ Blower door test)
Cross section through stairs to show compliance with Part M and Part B.
A window/door schedule with size of integrated vents to prove compliance with Part F.
Location of radon sumps and extract pipe work and terminals. (Part C)
Structural calculations for foundations, masonry walls, timber floors, concrete floors, support beams/ columns, roof structure. (Part A)

Vandy West

@jpw81 came across this note in the Code of Practice when reviewing what to submit.


5.2 Other Documentation
Key documents as is appropriate should be submitted depending on the particular building works.
Structural calculations and site investigation reports do not have to be submitted at commencement stage. However, they should be kept and made available on request to the Building Control Authority. The information should be provided to the Building Control Authority within two weeks of being requested.

Is there anything on the BCMS online application that guides what should be submitted (not registered myself as application in to become chartered)?

Have rang 3 local planning authorities but no one will give any indication of what they want.

Have Engineers Ireland or RIAI given any guidance to their qualified members/ chartered engineers?

We plan on developing a set of typical details that comply with the various tgd's and submit them every time and a compliance document similar to a fire cert compliance statement.

If the council's aren't actively seeking any particular information, this will probably just lead to everyone submitting as little information as possible and if a problem arises, then everything being done if asked for. Can't see too many people do detailed structural calculations for each particular house when the structural calculations will most likely not ever be requested.

sydthebeat

Seems to be a race to the bottom alright, with as little as possible being submitted.

Totally useless if these drawings and documentation simply become generic performance specifications.

But the compilers of the legislation dont care because they havent a clue about 'real life' situations.

JPW81

Vandy West wrote: »

@jpw81 came across this note in the Code of Practice when reviewing what to submit.


5.2 Other Documentation
Key documents as is appropriate should be submitted depending on the particular building works.
Structural calculations and site investigation reports do not have to be submitted at commencement stage. However, they should be kept and made available on request to the Building Control Authority. The information should be provided to the Building Control Authority within two weeks of being requested.

Is there anything on the BCMS online application that guides what should be submitted (not registered myself as application in to become chartered)?

Have rang 3 local planning authorities but no one will give any indication of what they want.

Have Engineers Ireland or RIAI given any guidance to their qualified members/ chartered engineers?

We plan on developing a set of typical details that comply with the various tgd's and submit them every time and a compliance document similar to a fire cert compliance statement.

If the council's aren't actively seeking any particular information, this will probably just lead to everyone submitting as little information as possible and if a problem arises, then everything being done if asked for. Can't see too many people do detailed structural calculations for each particular house when the structural calculations will most likely not ever be requested.

There is very little guidance out there and believe me, I have looked.

I am a fully paid up member of Engineers Ireland (CEng MIEI) and they have given close to zero guidance. I have recently resorted to e-mailing them directly to see if I can get some answers but I still await a reply.

The RIAI have given limited guidance and presented a day long seminar ( An architect friend attended and showed me some of the power point presentation documents) despite the fact that they have been vocal in their opposition to the Regs in their current format.

Building control officers I have spoken to tell me they have not yet seen the COP document they have been promised so do not know what to accept as commencement documents.

I have considered taking on the DC and AS roles but as there is no definitive guidance it is near impossible to price the work!

D_D

I'm also at the stage of submitting a commencement notice after being granted planning permission. Went online only to be greeted by this long list of requirements...

I'm just changing the external face of the house with a new small porch being built. Surely this requires little to no additional information to be submitted above the planning application drawings? Do they expect for someone to go off and do calcs for this?

4Sticks

If you are not
building a new house
extending a house by +40m2
doing works requiring a fire safety certificate ( you don't in this case)

Then the "old" commencement notice applies which requires far less red tape - and you don't need by law to appoint certifiers although this is advisable for future selling on.

D_D

OK, grand. The I rang the local authority to get the old commencement notice forms but they're directing me to the new BCMS website, which I find confusing.

Is the form I'm looking for a 'short commencement notice'? Or am I registering and filling in everything online for the 'long commencement notice'? And I'm submitting this to my local authority with the €30 fee?

Thanks for the help.

sydthebeat

D_D wrote: »

OK, grand. The I rang the local authority to get the old commencement notice forms but they're directing me to the new BCMS website, which I find confusing.

Is the form I'm looking for a 'short commencement notice'? Or am I registering and filling in everything online for the 'long commencement notice'? And I'm submitting this to my local authority with the €30 fee?

Thanks for the help.

the very first page of the BCMS asks you if you want the short form of the commencement notice.
its available for download and tells you to submit it to your local authority.

https://www.localgov.ie/en/BCMS

D_D

sydthebeat wrote: »

the very first page of the BCMS asks you if you want the short form of the commencement notice.
its available for download and tells you to submit it to your local authority.

https://www.localgov.ie/en/BCMS

That's what I assumed I needed, but the only issue with the website is that it doesn't distinguish between when you need a short commencement notice or a long commencement notice.

Grand, I'm ready to go so.

Last query while I'm here. I received the full permission from the local authority on the 16th April, and we are two weeks into the standard 4 week appeals period as of today. Can I submit my 2 week commencement notice now so that at the end of the 4 week appeals period I can start work, or do I have to submit it at the end of the 4 week appeals period, thus adding a two week delay?

Thanks again.

sydthebeat

D_D wrote: »

That's what I assumed I needed, but the only issue with the website is that it doesn't distinguish between when you need a short commencement notice or a long commencement notice.

Grand, I'm ready to go so.

Last query while I'm here. I received the full permission from the local authority on the 16th April, and we are two weeks into the standard 4 week appeals period as of today. Can I submit my 2 week commencement notice now so that at the end of the 4 week appeals period I can start work, or do I have to submit it at the end of the 4 week appeals period, thus adding a two week delay?

Thanks again.

no you cant, it would be invalid, because you havent got your legal planning permission yet.

D_D

OK, thanks for that.

Hopefully it won't affect me as I've other work to be doing to the back of the house which is exempt from planning permission approval, so will work on that for the interim two weeks.

Cheers.

Gumbo

D_D wrote: »

OK, thanks for that.

Hopefully it won't affect me as I've other work to be doing to the back of the house which is exempt from planning permission approval, so will work on that for the interim two weeks.

Cheers.

Be carefull a BCO doesnt equate that work to works being started early and invalidate your BCMS application.