Keeping "deer calibre" rifle after quiting stalking?

Zxthinger

I'm a long ways off quiting stalking! I'm only getting started but I'm about to buy a deer calibre rifle, I'm wondering what calibres might a chap be allowed to hold on to, if he dropped deer stalking one day and just went for a regular hunting licence?
I know some lads have secured 243's on the back of fox hunting alone so as such these IMO would stand the best chance or relicensing without NPWS licence.
But I have a 22centrefire already and tbh a 243 is a bit of a ballistic overlap.
I'd consider a 308win but I know in my 'heart' that I'd have to get rid of it if I ever quit the stalking but maybe some other calibres might hold a good chance of being licenced for general hunting once I've demonstrated that owning and using such a calibre did not cause me to come to the attention of AGS.

So I'm looking at 25-06, 6.5x55SE, 270win and possible a 260rem and don't forget I'd consider the 308 if there was a chance of keeping it after I quit stalking. I just don't want to be putting time and effort into triggers, bedding, scopes, threading, stocks, etc etc just to have to surrender it to an RFD if I decide to quit stalking. Obviously I'll be using it for the odd foxing session but foxing is hassle free and devoid of red tape and such.

Ultimately a "deer calibre" will allow me to shoot a lot better in the winds. My 22c/f typical shoots .260BC bullets but some of the above calibres run all the way up into the low 0.6##'s. This extra BC is halving the wind effect out to practical ranges.

Anyone know of 270s or 308s being held for general hunting??
Looking forward to any help choosing a deer calibre as it a bit of a mine field tbh.

rowa

Join a target range like the midlands and shoot and keep what you like, a .308 would cover all you want to do, target, stalking, fox control.

cookimonster

To be realistic any thing over .223 for foxing is a leap of fate with your local GS, see commissioners guidelines. I'm one of the relatively few who secured a deer calibre for foxing, but within the year of getting my licence I had permissions to hunt deer.

Why so pessimistic?, I know plenty of lads who only stalk a few times in the season and maintain thier license through private land permissions for stalking, no 'red tape' (if by that you mean Coilte Leases) or costs.

The alternative to retaining a 'just reason' for your centre fire apart from stalking would be Target shooting on an authorized range. But this would obviously require memberships and relevant fees.

clivej

When applying for your 'deer calibre' license put down fox (vermin) control and large game as your reasons to own. Then if and when you give up the deer (large game) you still have a good reason to keep your firearm.

Also as was said above get a farmer with deer on their land to sign a permission letter to keep your deer licence active

Zxthinger

clivej wrote: »

When applying for your 'deer calibre' license put down fox (vermin) control and large game as your reasons to own. Then if and when you give up the deer (large game) you still have a good reason to keep your firearm.

Also as was said above get a farmer with deer on their land to sign a permission letter to keep your deer licence active

That's a very good point!. KISS approach,.. But as soon as a NPWS permit is spotted (stapled to the application) it will be used by the AGS as the "valid reason" and in a few years time when I, for one reason or another, have no NPWS permit, I'll be refused a licence.
As far as other posts above are concerned, I'm not currently a range member for any of my other rifles even though one of them is just "deer legal" but that's a grey area. (both 220swift and 22-250 are given for fox control and both just scrape through the min caliber rules)


One question directly to Cookimonster.
What calibre do you manage to secure in advance of your deer hunting licence? Also the pessimism stems from a reluctance to sign up to something which I don't do and don't want to do in the future! namely target shooting!!..
I'm in no humor to sign up to another €300/yr charge on top of property and water tax !! If I invest in a good rifle and semi customise it at considerable cost which is never truly retrievable and at a loss of my personal time and effort then I want to keep it forever or until I want to upgrade or trade in..
Don't forget that paying €300/year means that I'm going to paying €980 every three years to keep my gun!! And don't forget that AFAIK you'll still have to validate my membership with range time! Travelling up and down to the midlands. 3hrs on fuel and 200miles of wear on car! and how many times per year would I have to go!!
The AA quote something like €0.60 per mile! So let's say three trips per year would cost €360 and three years per licence cost €1080 Now add that to the range cost and licence fee and soon ye realise that I'm paying over €2000 per licence bs that's before I shoot a single round.
Pessimism! No! Common sense yes!

p.e.s.

Zxthinger wrote:

One question directly to Cookimonster.
What calibre do you manage to secure in advance of your deer hunting licence? Also the pessimism stems from a reluctance to sign up to something which I don't do and don't want to do in the future! namely target shooting!!..
I'm in no humor to sign up to another €300/yr charge on top of property and water tax !! If I invest in a good rifle and semi customise it at considerable cost which is never truly retrievable and at a loss of my personal time and effort then I want to keep it forever or until I want to upgrade or trade in..
Don't forget that paying €300/year means that I'm going to paying €980 every three years to keep my gun!! And don't forget that AFAIK you'll still have to validate my membership with range time! Travelling up and down to the midlands. 3hrs on fuel and 200miles of wear on car! and how many times per year would I have to go!!
The AA quote something like €0.60 per mile! So let's say three trips per year would cost €360 and three years per licence cost €1080 Now add that to the range cost and licence fee and soon ye realise that I'm paying over €2000 per licence bs that's before I shoot a single round.
Pessimism! No! Common sense yes!

If you quantify the sport like that , you shouldn't keep the rifle, just sell it and spend the money on something you like.:rolleyes:

cookimonster

Just to clarify something the commissioners guide lines outlines that a foxing round is .220 or .223, while appropriate deer hunting rounds range between .243 and 308. The NPWS still consider the 22-250 deer legal with the appropriate ammunition. The guidelines all so state foxing is not a sport and culling in areas where no damage is been done is not a valid reason for ownership of such rifle.
This may not be observed when issuing FAC but certainly it is in writing and therefore inforceable.

I looked for and was issued a FAC for a .243 and stated its intended use was for foxing but as posted I secured permission for deer stalking after the fact.

I asked you why you where been pessimistic because you are only starting out and are looking at negative end of it already. Ask yourself why do you want the rifle, if you already have a good foxing setup stick with that, if you want to own a larger caliber cf then at present the two ways to do so and be compliant within the law is to either hold a NPWS license or join a club.
Personally I think the NPWS way is the easiest and most financially viable. Just because you hold the license doesn't mean you have to shoot deer 'all' season. My own father legally kept his guns up to the time of his death even though his days in the fields where long past by maintaining his FAC and written permission.
The firearms I own each serve a justifiable purpose in the eyes of the law and I have both club memberships and hunting permissions to back it up . This does not mean I am utilizing each one on a regular basis and as yet there is no mechanism to check this. The day I can't satisfy the requirements is the day I will begin to worry.

Zxthinger

p.e.s. wrote: »

If you quantify the sport like that , you shouldn't keep the rifle, just sell it and spend the money on something you like.:rolleyes:

Quantify the sport? Which sport? It sure isnt the sport of hunting that I'm "quantifying". ..
In my case range membership into the sport of target shooting would only be lip service to the BS system that the PTB have created... In these enlightened times I would have thought that a seasoned rifle hunter could genuinely justify the specific case for a specific calibre.. You my friend are barking up the wrong tree! Participation in hunting costs very little, and if I have to I'll hog some land owners deer shooting permission and shoot a few just to hold on to my rifles but that's not really fair to the next generation of young shooters out there trying to get ahead.

Zxthinger

cookimonster wrote: »

Just to clarify something the commissioners guide lines outlines that a foxing round is .220 or .223, while appropriate deer hunting rounds range between .243 and 308. The NPWS still consider the 22-250 deer legal with the appropriate ammunition. The guidelines all so state foxing is not a sport and culling in areas where no damage is been done is not a valid reason for ownership of such rifle.
This may not be observed when issuing FAC but certainly it is in writing and therefore inforceable.

I looked for and was issued a FAC for a .243 and stated its intended use was for foxing but as posted I secured permission for deer stalking after the fact.

I asked you why you where been pessimistic because you mean you have to shoot deer 'all' season. My own father legally kept his guns up to the time of his death even though his days in the
fields where long past by maintaining his FAC and written permission.
The firearms I own each serve a justifiable purpose in the eyes of the law and I have both club memberships and hunting permissions to back it up . This does not mean I am utilizing each one on a regular basis and as yet there is no mechanism to check this. The day I can't satisfy the requirements is the day I will begin to worry.

Sound enough advise! And yep I totally agree that a NPWS is the cheap option to secure a large calibre!


Tbh I would take the Garda guidelines with a pinch of salt! "generally correct but only a general guide" i.e not set in stone.

Ill prob stick with a NPWS permit but the afaik the laws says that I only have to justify the firearm type selected for the task at hand and demonstrate that I'm a person that can be trusted.
I'd probably have to write a thesis to explain BC, bullet deformation, bullet frontal area, SD and eveything else to justify a ballistically superior round for general vermin control.
Are ye going to let me in on what calibre ye secured prior to your deer hunting licence? I'd love to know. ? Prob a 243 but let me know! Feel free to pm me if that suits.
And just for the record! I wouldn't have explored the deer hunting path if it wasnt for these so called guidelines. I'd be happy enough plugging away with the odd shot on vermin at extended ranges with a high BC bullet..

p.e.s.

You say the cost of hunting is very little , I see very little difference between the costs of shooting as a sport whether it be Hunting or Target Shooting , the Travel costs , wear and tear on your vehicle etc, that you were worried about are still there , unless that is , you are lucky enough to live on your own land / hunting ground . The only difference is the club membership which has other benefits, as everyone needs to practice , zero , learn safe Handling etc. The cost of membership broken down weekly is only about 6 or 8 euro a week , less than a pack of cigarettes . If you want to make a large investment in a full bore rifle , have you thought about the cost of ammunition , its not like a .22 with the average cost of a box of full bore ammo being about 40 to 50 euro for 20 rounds.

From your earlier post you need to seriously think about what you are getting in to. If Cost is a factor Shooting , regardless of the discipline is not Cheap.,and the more you get into it , the more expensive it gets.

cookimonster

cookimonster wrote: »

I looked for and was issued a FAC for a .243 and stated its intended use was for foxing......

Sorry amongst the rambling of my last post I should have made it clearer. It was a .243, I was originally looking for a 22-250 but was advised against by friends so I went gor the .243.
My firearms prior to that where .22 and 12g

Zxthinger

p.e.s. wrote: »

You say the cost of hunting is very little , I see very little difference between the costs of shooting as a sport whether it be Hunting or Target Shooting , the Travel costs , wear and tear on your vehicle etc, that you were worried about are still there , unless that is , you are lucky enough to live on your own land / hunting ground . The only difference is the club membership which has other benefits, as everyone needs to practice , zero , learn safe Handling etc. The cost of membership broken down weekly is only about 6 or 8 euro a week , less than a pack of cigarettes . If you want to make a large investment in a full bore rifle , have you thought about the cost of ammunition , its not like a .22 with the average cost of a box of full bore ammo being about 40 to 50 euro for 20 rounds.

From your earlier post you need to seriously think about what you are getting in to. If Cost is a factor Shooting , regardless of the discipline is not Cheap.,and the more you get into it , the more expensive it gets.

Attach the cost of hunting to the cost of target shooting that's the real cost! I have no interest in target shooting! I don't need a range! I don't want a range and the 2k saved from it would easy keep a fellow in a new-ish car. Cigarettes are mucho bad news and everyone tells you how much they are saving when the knock'em on the head!! It all adds up! I don't need a range to zero because it's not a requirement! Three shots down the big bog or three into the 20ton of manure that's on private land is all that's needed! If the gun is bedded, scope bedded, barrel free floated and maintained with gentle cleaning it will hold it's poi from year to year!
Jesus! Ammo costing €40 to 50?? What rock do ye think I climbed out from? FFS man!! I have checked out every calibre, all the bullet types their availability here on the "rock" and how effective each is and it optium barrel length! Weights of guns! Damage from each type of calibre. Now I'm doing a final check by seeing what type of calibre might I actually retain under licence in the event of quiting deer shooting some day! I'm trying to cross all the T's and dot all the I's.
Don't try taking the Mick mate! Fair is fair!! Ive had gun that ran ammo at €65/20 so €40/20 us cheap! But if you look around and spend the time searching youll get surplus and budget at 1euro a pop!!.. I have it all sussed out!!Well nearly! Lol

Cass

If you won't spend the money on a range, and have no interest in target shooting then the only other good reason you can have is deer hunting. As said above keeping the license going on a deer permit is cheap and easy.

However as you said with this being the only reason to have the rifle if you stop renewing your deer permit you may loose the gun or at least your good reason for needing it. Also with hunting as your only reason any target shooting/zeroing outside a range will technically be in breach of your license conditions. A small technicality but one none the less.

Zxthinger wrote: »

I don't need a range to zero because it's not a requirement!

Legally it is. While McDowel said he did not intend to make zeroing rifles outside a range illegal he never made allowances and so any shooting at targets for any reason outside a range is illegal.

Three shots down the big bog or three into the 20ton of manure that's on private land is all that's needed!

This is usually dealt with under common sense. 99% of the time it's never an issue. For the 1% that a Garda or someone might see you and challenge you on what you are doing he will determine that three shots for zeroing/safety reasons is most definitely excusable. However just for clarity sake. It is illegal. The thing is zeroing is never said or mentioned in the acts. Like FO (Firearms Officer) it is a title we have appointed to it. In legal terms it's target shooting as you shoot at a target. Be it a tin, bottle, timber, paper, etc.

As for your original question:

I'm wondering what calibres might a chap be allowed to hold on to, if he dropped deer stalking one day and just went for a regular hunting licence?]

I guessing the answer may be none. Without a "good reason" for having the caliber it may be revoked. Then again the chances are just as likely that as you have it licensed you may be allowed/able to keep it.

I've not heard of anyone, not to say it does not happen, that has lost a rifle due to a change in their "good reason" for having it.

My question to you would be more along the lines of what would you prefer rather than what would you be able to keep. There are always ways to keep a gun, as mentioned above, so why "settle" for caliber that you may keep or loose regardless. You seem to be keen on the ,308 so why not go for that?

p.e.s.

Zxthinger wrote:

But if you look around and spend the time searching youll get surplus and budget at 1euro a pop!!.. I have it all sussed out!

Have you tried it ,most of the surplus ammo available is FMJ and not suitable for hunting. You haven't specified what quarry you intend shooting , if you give up deer stalking . 2 things , proper shot placement will cleanly kill any of the vermin species in Ireland with CF 22s , and over penetration on light bodied vermin with larger calibers doesn't use the bullets kinetic energy therefore more energy doesn't mean a cleaner kill.

Shooting vermin with FMJ ammo is unethical at best and absolutely irresponsible.If you intend to shoot live Quarry use properly designed hunting ammunition

Zxthinger wrote:

I don't need a range to zero because it's not a requirement! Three shots down the big bog or three into the 20ton of manure that's on private land is all that's needed! If the gun is bedded, scope bedded, barrel free floated and maintained with gentle cleaning it will hold it's poi from year to year!

I dont know how long you are shooting or how much experience you have but if you think that when you zero your rifle that it will hold that zero indefinitely , you are sadly mistaken , regardless of what modifications or improvements are made to your firearm you need to regularly check the zero and whether you like it or not the best place to do that is at a range.

Zxthinger wrote:

Don't try taking the Mick mate!

I wasnt taking the mick as you put it, Merely saying that shooting is an expensive sport , I dont even want to think of the money I have spent over the years, so if the cost of enjoying the sport is a factor ie less than €10 a week to keep your highly cherished fully customised rifle after you give up deer hunting , then you need to think long and hard before you invest .

As Cass has already stated , just keep getting a Deer licence , you dont have to shoot deer , and you will keep your firearms.

Zxthinger

Some fair points cass!! BbbbbBut!! Yer all wrong on the zeroing out side a range issue! Yes it illegal to target shoot at an unapproved range without reasonable excuse!!
"Reason able excuse" that's the ticket! I'm just being reasonable in assuring that I know where the bullets are going and that the animals welfare is being considered by proofing my zero or drop at an extended range where I might expect to encounter game!!
Pull out the wording from the act and you'll see that reasonable excuse or other such caveat is provide for the reasonable man.
Target shooting is the promotion of marksman skill with training etc etc. Zeroing is not target shooting!!

Another one I heard tonight gave me a giggle! Spent brass counts towards your ammo limit!! BS our ammo limits are set in cartridges! Cartridges are full rounds. Component parts will get you burnt without a licence for a particular calibre but once you have a licence it entitles you to hold 'ammunition'.Period!
Your only limit is the amount of rounds as per the pack page of your physical licence and the amounts of powder/set put within the 1875 explosives act. Rant over! Lol sorry for changing course there!!'lol

tac foley

Zxthinger wrote: »

That's a very good point!. KISS approach,.. But as soon as a NPWS permit is spotted (stapled to the application) it will be used by the AGS as the "valid reason" and in a few years time when I, for one reason or another, have no NPWS permit, I'll be refused a licence.
As far as other posts above are concerned, I'm not currently a range member for any of my other rifles even though one of them is just "deer legal" but that's a grey area. (both 220swift and 22-250 are given for fox control and both just scrape through the min caliber rules)


One question directly to Cookimonster.
What calibre do you manage to secure in advance of your deer hunting licence? Also the pessimism stems from a reluctance to sign up to something which I don't do and don't want to do in the future! namely target shooting!!..
I'm in no humor to sign up to another €300/yr charge on top of property and water tax !! If I invest in a good rifle and semi customise it at considerable cost which is never truly retrievable and at a loss of my personal time and effort then I want to keep it forever or until I want to upgrade or trade in..
Don't forget that paying €300/year means that I'm going to paying €980 every three years to keep my gun!! And don't forget that AFAIK you'll still have to validate my membership with range time! Travelling up and down to the midlands. 3hrs on fuel and 200miles of wear on car! and how many times per year would I have to go!!
The AA quote something like €0.60 per mile! So let's say three trips per year would cost €360 and three years per licence cost €1080 Now add that to the range cost and licence fee and soon ye realise that I'm paying over €2000 per licence bs that's before I shoot a single round.
Pessimism! No! Common sense yes!

Hey, nobody ever said that live-game shooting in Ireland was cheap. Either you want to do it or you don't.

If you do, then suck it up.

If you don't, then give it up.

Just sayin'.

tac

Zxthinger

tac foley wrote: »

Hey, nobody ever said that live-game shooting in Ireland was cheap. Either you want to do it or you don't.

If you do, then suck it up.

If you don't, then give it up.

Just sayin'.

tac

I'm not bothered with cost associated with 'live game shooting', that the whole point! What I'm not happy with is being possible forced to join a range or forfeit by large bore rifles just because because I lose/surrender my deer hunting permission.
The whole post was to discover what calibres lads where able to secure without deer hunting permit in Eire today! and thereby futureproof any purchase by selection of a calibre that might not offend the PTB if circumstances changed in the future! I'd hate to do a good lot if work on a rifle and then be forced to sell it! The whole question is on which is hypothetical tbh but I thought it was a valid point and worth considering. I don't want to be left with regrets later after buying! I know certain calibres have limitations but I could work around that as all calibres have limitations.
I suppose I was half thinking of a 243 but a better calibre would be a .270 and I only know of one lad that has one of these without a deer licence or a range membership! I'm aware of no 308s that are licenced without a deer permit or a range membership but they might exist out there somewhere
I even thought about a old 303 but the accuracy is crap afaik.

landkeeper2

if you don't want to shoot deer and you don't want to be a member of a range why oh why do you want to keep a large centrefire
the biggest thing you can shoot with it will be a fox any of the centrefire 22s from a hornet to a swift will do that most with overkill at a fraction of the price for ammunition
you can't legally target practise with it either

tac foley

'kay. I see your point. shooting where YOU live sure does seem to be VERY costy compared to almost anywhere else I can think of, UK included, for one reason or another.

Anyhow, I'd take you to task over the .303 - with the 174 or 150gr SP it's a game getter for sure, and has been since the late 1800's, or are Irish deer so much smaller than those in the rest of the world?

One of our club members here has a BSA .303 made in 1901 - open sights - that he uses for his gamekeeping duties, as did his dad and grandad - same rifle, even the same old sling. He can shoot it into a 1.5 circle all the day long with his open sights - never had any use for modern stuff. He shoots around 300 deer a year, too, so it can't be that bad.

On the other hand, if you've time to get over to Castlemaine for the next Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland shoot, I'm sure my fellow .303 shooters will put you right about the 'crappy accuracy' of the .303.

Best

tac
VCRAI url]www.vcrai.com[/url

rowa

Zxthinger wrote: »

I even thought about a old 303 but the accuracy is crap afaik.

Possibly in an old worn out smle or no.4, but ruger did a run of .303's a year or two back in their single shot hunting rifle. Apart from the odd lemon that slipped through quality control the accuracy was excellent. I know a gunsmith in canada and he does a huge amount of work on .303's that are used for working rifles for those who don't want to drop three months wages, on something to lug through the rough country. Other rounds to consider, 6mm remington, .257 roberts, 7x57, 6.5x55, the list of middleweight deer rounds is endless nearly. I have to agree though use a deer rifle for the deer, sell it when finished or have it rebarrelled to a lesser calibre for foxes.

Zxthinger

landkeeper2 wrote: »

if you don't want to shoot deer and you don't want to be a member of a range why oh why do you want to keep a large centrefire
the biggest thing you can shoot with it will be a fox any of the centrefire 22s from a hornet to a swift will do that most with overkill at a fraction of the price for ammunition
you can't legally target practise with it either

A box of 220 is as cheap as a box of 308.
Its the high BC that I'm after and the reduced wind effect. But I go the deer permission route if that works but it's bull and we all must suck it.

rowa

If you have something like a .308 for deer, custom built like you said you are going to do, when you finish deer shooting when ever that maybe, a simple rebarrel to a smaller calibre and a reapplication for a new licence would see you right. All you have to worry about is the bolt head diameter.

landkeeper2

what's bull about it ? it's the law of the land those are the rules we all play by and i happen to think perfectly right and fair if you have no legitimate reason for owning a particular firearm then why should you be allowed to licence it , those of us who use them for sport and important pest control use them for the purpose we licence them for
if you want something that can shoot high bc rounds then get a 22-250 with a fast twist tube

tac foley

landkeeper2 wrote: »

what's bull about it ? it's the law of the land those are the rules we all play by and i happen to think perfectly right and fair if you have no legitimate reason for owning a particular firearm then why should you be allowed to licence it , those of us who use them for sport and important pest control use them for the purpose we licence them for
if you want something that can shoot high bc rounds then get a 22-250 with a fast twist tube

You are right, but for sure, there's no fun in it, is there?

tac

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

If you have something like a .308 for deer, custom built like you said you are going to do, when you finish deer shooting when ever that maybe, a simple rebarrel to a smaller calibre and a reapplication for a new licence would see you right. All you have to worry about is the bolt head diameter.

Yup - .243 or .270 would mean keeping the same bolt.

I'm sure there are others than the .260 Rem and 7mm 08, also based on the basic .308 Win case head dimensions, but the .243 and .270 are easy to find ammunition for in Ireland - so I'm told...

tac

Zxthinger

tac foley wrote: »

' get over to Castlemaine for the next Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland shoot, I'm sure my fellow .303 shooters will put you right about the 'crappy accuracy' of the .303.

Best

tac
VCRAI url]www.vcrai.com[/url

I'll look into them! Never really considered tbh so they are due a proper look !! It's just that I read somewhere that they weren't great and I just accepted it without question.

tac foley

Zxthinger wrote: »

I'll look into them! Never really considered tbh so they are due a proper look !! It's just that I read somewhere that they weren't great and I just accepted it without question.

All those thousands of Empire and Commonwealth target shooters who won the Queen's/King's and then the Queen's Marksmanship prizes over the last hundred years or so must have been some really awful bad shots, if the very best of them were internationally recognised as crap. Maybe the 'inch' was a whole lot bigger back then....

The required figure for a No4 rifle on test was five shots in two inches with open sights at 100 yards. Try that with whatever rifle you have - open sights, remember. Anything better than that got chosen for conversion to the No4[T] sniping rifle by Holland & Holland. Many No4[T] sniping rifles with their sad old No32 x4 scopes STILL shoot all the ammunition you can provide into around MOA out to 600-800 yards in the right hands - sixty years after they were made.

Don't take my word for it - go try one and make up your own mind.

tac

Snake_Doctor

I was in a similar situation this year, I had been in a Range with my 6.5x55, but wasnt really using the range, as I had paid over 1K for the rifle, I wanted to keep it, if for nothing else then to pass on to the son when the time comes as its a lovely M96 in pristine condition. I considered the Deer route, but as I dont really hunt deer I got 2 permissions for general hunting on the land, stuck in the application and it was approved a week later. The 6.5x55 seems to slip under the radar sometimes.

tac foley

Upwards of a couple of million moose/elk/elg would agree that the 6.5x55 can do the biz.

The 6.5x55 - Slaying half-ton moosies since 1896.

tac

Cass

To keep things clean i've split all the spent ammo v live ammo talk into it's own thread.

It's here.

Please keep all discussion about that topic on the new thread and limit yyour responses on this thread to the topic in the OP.

Thanks.