What am I doing wrong?

TheShizz

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=iznyfs%3E&s=8#.UzRjA6h_vW5

This is my latest attempt to make mortar but it's just not working for me.

I'm on the verge of having a nervous breakdown because this is my third day trying to produce the clay-type mortar necessary for building jobs.

jack of all

Mix looks like it might benefit from the addition of a little plasticiser, for a small job you could just use a little Fairy Liquid (the bubbles produced in the mix improve plasticity) to improve workability. Purists will argue that you should use nothing other than a proper branded plasticiser but washing up liquid will do the job in a pinch. Also I would add that the trowel you are using is too small for anything other than repointing or patch repairs, a full size bricklayer's trowel is what you need. Don't give up yet!

TheShizz

That is a full-size trowel, I just have very big hands. That was a joke. I do have a bigger trowel but it doesn't fit in the basin so I can't mix with that.

I'll try Fairy Up next time, but is it going to help that much? I'm nowhere near the right consistency, am I?

monkeynuz

what ratio of sand/cement are you using?

what sand are you using?

It looks very grey to me.

Littlehorny

Are you using a good building sand? Make sure its not plastering sand your using. Also get a gallon of morticiser and borrow or hire a mixer, mixing by hand will never mix it as well as a machine.

TheShizz

It's a 3:1 pre-mix bag of sand & cement. It also has elements of lime in it according to the bag. It's the real deal; I'm just not very good at using it.

vinnie13

jack of all wrote: »

Mix looks like it might benefit from the addition of a little plasticiser, for a small job you could just use a little Fairy Liquid (the bubbles produced in the mix improve plasticity) to improve workability. Purists will argue that you should use nothing other than a proper branded plasticiser but washing up liquid will do the job in a pinch. Also I would add that the trowel you are using is too small for anything other than repointing or patch repairs, a full size bricklayer's trowel is what you need. Don't give up yet!

+1 tought the same needs a little fairy

Stavros Murphy

TheShizz wrote: »

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=iznyfs%3E&s=8#.UzRjA6h_vW5

This is my latest attempt to make mortar but it's just not working for me.

I'm on the verge of having a nervous breakdown because this is my third day trying to produce the clay-type mortar necessary for building jobs.

Bin the pre-mixed muck, buy some fine sand, some lime, some cement, bung in 3.1.1 of each - you need a mixer - a dash of plasticiser/fairy and enough water. Let it mix, and mix. Then get on and lay whatever you're laying. Practice makes perfect. If you're mixing it in a bowl, forget it, you need a mixer.

Dtp1979

TheShizz wrote: »

It's a 3:1 pre-mix bag of sand & cement. It also has elements of lime in it according to the bag. It's the real deal; I'm just not very good at using it.

Mix in a large bucket and Make sure you add the dry mix to water, not the other way around. Have a drop of fairy in the water stirred first.

jack of all

Just to add to the above, make sure it is "building sand" you get- it is soft sand, has plenty of fines in it and not to be confused with a sharp plastering sand. Just mix the dry elements throughly first before adding water. For small jobs there's nothing wrong with mixing up in a bucket or on a spot board, it's just hard work. I still have fond memories of my grandfather showing me how to mix up a bit of mortar with a shovel on a board when I was chap!

WilyCoyote

The sand in your video is too sharp ........ almost like screeding sand.

albert kidd

DO NOT USE FAIRY LIQUID as has been suggested on this thread..buy plas.

if washing up liquid was to be used builders merchants would be selling in.

leave your washing up liquid on the sink.

it reduces the strenght in the mortar when it sets.

vinnie13

albert kidd wrote: »

DO NOT USE FAIRY LIQUID as has been suggested on this thread..buy plas.

if washing up liquid was to be used builders merchants would be selling in.

leave your washing up liquid on the sink.

it reduces the strenght in the mortar when it sets.

thats just wrong,any proof to back this up or is it just a opinion?

albert kidd

vinnie13 wrote: »

thats just wrong,any proof to back this up or is it just a opinion?

the mortar can be almost raked out with you fingers after a few years when washing up liquid has been used instead of plas.

ive no proof..but from my own experience,ive seen it first hand on walls where it has been used.

vinnie13

if it can be raked out by hand thats just a bad mix poory done,washing up liquid cant damage a mix to that degree
i have 20yr old walls that are still as strong as the day they went in.

TheShizz

Right, I have decided that I am going to try it your way: dump the pre-mix sh*t and do it properly.



Is this all I need? Fairy liquid or not, it's no harm to get the real deal plasticiser when it's only three quid. I've got two trowels and a large plank of wood to mix the components.

Three or four parts sand to one part cement, right? I know the theory; it's the application which is tricky.

tommy2bad

If your not using a mixer, put 3 shovels of sand down and 1 shovel of cement. Mix them until it all an even grey color. Now add water with plasticer a bit at the time until you have the consistency you want. Careful now because as you mix a little water goes a long way.
Now you have an idea of the ratios, make up the full amount needed. Mix it dry first then add the water.
Use a big clean floor or mix in a bucket but a bucket is slow if you need more than 2 bucket full and it's awkward, easier on a floor.

WilyCoyote

Am a plasterer with over 40 years experience. If the CoW saw a container of Fairy Liquid (or any cleaning detergent) hidden in the sand near the mixer ...... the high jump would be coming or at least a severe ticking off. It makes the mix lovely and viscous but the very small bubbles are not stable. The finish product will be softer than if Febmix or another Plasticiser was used.
If you're doing outside rendering you need washed plastering sand. Then add some Waterproofer to the mix - this does exactly the same with the added bonus of stabilizing and impeding the suction in the scratch coat. But always follow the manufacturer's instructions. Good luck!

whupdedo

vinnie13 wrote: »

if it can be raked out by hand thats just a bad mix poory done,washing up liquid cant damage a mix to that degree
i have 20yr old walls that are still as strong as the day they went in.

Your wrong, washing up liquid will break down any mortar within 15 to 20 years, washing up liquid is a detergent and not to be used in building mortar, as said in a previous post if it was meant for mortar it would be sold in builders merchants

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

Right, I have decided that I am going to try it your way: dump the pre-mix sh*t and do it properly.



Is this all I need? Fairy liquid or not, it's no harm to get the real deal plasticiser when it's only three quid. I've got two trowels and a large plank of wood to mix the components.

Three or four parts sand to one part cement, right? I know the theory; it's the application which is tricky.

That should do the trick, I'd leave out the fairy, leave it for washing the mugs after the tay:D

vinnie13

whupdedo wrote: »

Your wrong, washing up liquid will break down any mortar within 15 to 20 years, washing up liquid is a detergent and not to be used in building mortar, as said in a previous post if it was meant for mortar it would be sold in builders merchants

feel free to drop by and have a look

TheShizz

Ok, I did it your way lads. I got sand, cement, plasticiser and even a little bit of wood for mixing the components on.

So, assuming that I'm going to be mixing 3/4 shovels of sand with one shovel of cement, what's the ideal amount of plasticiser to put into the water? I didn't get any lime because the lads on YouTube haven't got that.

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

Ok, I did it your way lads. I got sand, cement, plasticiser and even a little bit of wood for mixing the components on.

So, assuming that I'm going to be mixing 3/4 shovels of sand with one shovel of cement, what's the ideal amount of plasticiser to put into the water? I didn't get any lime because the lads on YouTube haven't got that.

Start with 2 capfuls measured into a small drop of water, and add appropriately until you get the right mix that is easy to work with, keep in mind that if your mixing with a shovel you need to mix fairly vigorously to get the mix nice and creamy, you don't need lime it will be fine without it

TheShizz

I'm going to use four trowels worth of sand to a trowel's worth of cement firstly to see if I get any more joy than previous attempts. Then, if all goes well, I'll switch to shovel after the other mix has been used.

Cheers.

TheShizz

This is a joke, a joke that isn't actually funny because this is very frustrating. I whipped up pretty much the exact same mix with the trowel that I was doing last week, despite going for separate sand and cement rather than a all-in-one bag.

It could be the sand. I requested 'builders sand' but the bloke recommended plastering sand - dunno if there's a difference - so perhaps it's that. Or maybe I'm just a completely sh*t builder.

whupdedo

If the sand is bad, add more cement and plasticiser with less sand and reduce the amount of water, you should start out with a completely dry mix on the board and then start adding the plas and water by degrees, while turning from right to left with the shovel, try mixing 2 shovels of sand to 1 small shovel of cement dry and then start adding the plas and water

TheShizz

Did most of, apart from 2:1 ratio.

How this look?

whupdedo

Doesn't look bad at all could do with more mixing I would think, if it's still unworkable add plas on its own without water, in very small quantities at a time until your satisfied

TheShizz

Yeah, I dunno how much more mixing I can do. I'm shattered. But I'll try adding more plasticizer; it's not the clay type material needed.

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

Yeah, I dunno how much more mixing I can do. I'm shattered. But I'll try adding more plasticizer; it's not the clay type material needed.

What exactly are you using it for ?

jimmy5694

Could be out of date as well, shops have a habbit in selling out of date cement

TheShizz

whupdedo wrote: »

What exactly are you using it for ?

Rebuilding a brick wall.

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

Rebuilding a brick wall.

Well you will need it nice and workable so a little extra plas will do no harm, just be careful not to overdo it

TheShizz

Looks way better in pictures than it does in real life, the f*cking Georgia Salpa of mortar here.

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

Rebuilding a brick wall.

Well you will need it nice and workable so a little extra plas will do no harm, just be careful not to overdo it

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

Looks way better in pictures than it does in real life, the f*cking Georgia Salpa of mortar here.

Looks like it needs a little drying up, mix the dry stuff in the tub up with it and see what you come up with

TheShizz

I've given up for today mate. I don't understand why I can't do this to be honest.

Paulie Gualtieri

its all about what sand you use , builders sand should be like flour . soft and not grainy , grainy is plasterers sand. then a cap full of mortar mix for a small amount .

you can use a bit of washing up liquid in place of mortar mix. but beware it does weaken the mortar.

TheShizz

Why did the bloke tell me to get plastering sand? You're right, it is grainy as f*ck. So were the pre-mix bags.

Paulie Gualtieri

TheShizz wrote: »

Why did the bloke tell me to get plastering sand? You're right, it is grainy as f*ck. So were the pre-mix bags.

Was he the one selling it by any chance?

The reason rough grainy sand isn't as good is that it doesn't slide off the trowel . Which in turn makes the building slower and more awkward. And you can't play / push it around on a block / brick like when using proper floury sand / cement , instead its just like a sticky blob of sand.

TheShizz

So, basically I could mess around with all my previous mixes for two days straight and I still wouldn't have the clay-type mix that I need?

Well, the sh*t that I've been coming up with over the last week has definitely been falling off the trowel, but I'm prepared to ignore that part of your post and put all of my stock in the theory that building sand will help me produce the clay-type mortar that I really, really want.

Would I be right in saying that there's different types of mortar? The messy stuff I've been producing all day is one type, whereas the clay, doughy stuff is simply a different type?

Not going to lie, I was feeling like a beaten man but now I want to get back on the horse and try my luck with building sand.

Paulie Gualtieri

TheShizz wrote: »

So, basically I could mess around with all my previous mixes for two days straight and I still wouldn't have the clay-type mix that I need?

Well, the sh*t that I've been coming up with over the last week has definitely been falling off the trowel, but I'm prepared to ignore that part of your post and put all of my stock in the theory that building sand will help me produce the clay-type mortar that I really, really want.

Would I be right in saying that there's different types of mortar? The messy stuff I've been producing all day is one type, whereas the clay, doughy stuff is simply a different type?

Not going to lie, I was feeling like a beaten man but now I want to get back on the horse and try my luck with building sand.

To be honest I think the are different types but
All I can tell you is i used the one brand of cement on sites for years and the quality of the mix always came down to the sand . but you do need the mortarsizer (any brand) to make it playable.

whupdedo

You would make mortor for bricks out of the sand your using, but ideally you need a mixer and would use more cement and plas to try and get it right, get the soft stuff and start again, if that
Doesn't work ill go and do it for you

TheShizz

If I wanted to simply re-build the wall then yeah I could have easily used the consistency I found today. I used that early last week on six bricks and they're very, very solid, but it looks like sh*t.

This is the type I'm after:

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

If I wanted to simply re-build the wall then yeah I could have easily used the consistency I found today. I used that early last week on six bricks and they're very, very solid, but it looks like sh*t.

This is the type I'm after:

Whereabouts are you living ?

Paulie Gualtieri

TheShizz wrote: »

If I wanted to simply re-build the wall then yeah I could have easily used the consistency I found today. I used that early last week on six bricks and they're very, very solid, but it looks like sh*t.

This is the type I'm after:

That's a fairly heavy dry looking mix , you'd want tough wrists for that ,

Also forgot to say if you get the right sand and the mix you want make sure you replicate as in exact quantities as you want the same look over all.

TheShizz

whupdedo wrote: »

Whereabouts are you living ?

Rathfarnham.

I know what you're going to say: you're going to very kindly offer to do it for me, or you'll give me the number of a professional. And I'd massively appreciate both offers, but I'm far too stubborn to pawn this off on anyone else. It would be an admission of defeat in my head, and we can't be having that.

I spent most of a day two weeks ago chiseling away at the old cement in preparation for laying fresh mortar down. I've paid for all of the sh*t. In short, I've invested both financially and emotionally in getting this done, and I want to be the one to do it.

TheShizz

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

That's a fairly heavy dry looking mix , you'd want tough wrists for that ,

Also forgot to say if you get the right sand and the mix you want make sure you replicate as in exact quantities as you want the same look over all.

It's the right type though, isn't it? It's the type of mortar that sticks to your trowel when you turn it upside down, the type that doesn't drip down the walls when you apply it on the course of bricks.

whupdedo

TheShizz wrote: »

Rathfarnham.

I know what you're going to say: you're going to very kindly offer to do it for me, or you'll give me the number of a professional. And I'd massively appreciate both offers, but I'm far too stubborn to pawn this off on anyone else. It would be an admission of defeat in my head, and we can't be having that.

I spent most of a day two weeks ago chiseling away at the old cement in preparation for laying fresh mortar down. I've paid for all of the sh*t. In short, I've invested both financially and emotionally in getting this done, and I want to be the one to do it.

No. I won't go near it your not far from roadstone on the belgard road, they sell really good creamy mortor for bricklaying, they sell it in any quantity you want, I have often used it and the quality is always bang on, it lasts for 2 days and hardens up after 4 days

Paulie Gualtieri

TheShizz wrote: »

Rathfarnham.

I know what you're going to say: you're going to very kindly offer to do it for me, or you'll give me the number of a professional. And I'd massively appreciate both offers, but I'm far too stubborn to pawn this off on anyone else. It would be an admission of defeat in my head, and we can't be having that.

I spent most of a day two weeks ago chiseling away at the old cement in preparation for laying fresh mortar down. I've paid for all of the sh*t. In short, I've invested both financially and emotionally in getting this done, and I want to be the one to do it.

I understand totally, The feeling of "I made that" / fixed that. Don't give up , you'll get there in the end.

TheShizz

whupdedo wrote: »

No. I won't go near it your not far from roadstone on the belgard road, they sell really good creamy mortor for bricklaying, they sell it in any quantity you want, I have often used it and the quality is always bang on, it lasts for 2 days and hardens up after 4 days

Oh, well I'm not too proud to take your advice on that brother.

Thank you.