Chapeau to the A4 commissaire today.

Quigs Snr

I don't see much terribly wrong with the highlighted moments on the black umbrella video. Momentarily swinging wide to try get the gap is racing and especially at the front of the race the lead vehicles should be at least calming the traffic to make that less dangerous. Its also hardly a blind corner despite what the camera angle shows and the riders also have other senses at their disposal.

What I do have a problem with, and what the comm in Carrick was quite right to stop is 150 riders 7 or 8 abreast taking up 3/4 of the road, sometimes the full road, both lanes, even around blind corners and often refusing to move in for cars. I was at the Betty Darcy in Gorey about 5 or 6 years ago when that happened and a rider ended up writing off a Toyota Celica.

ragazzo

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I don't see much terribly wrong with the highlighted moments on the black umbrella video. Momentarily swinging wide to try get the gap is racing and especially at the front of the race the lead vehicles should be at least calming the traffic to make that less dangerous. Its also hardly a blind corner despite what the camera angle shows and the riders also have other senses at their disposal.

What I do have a problem with, and what the comm in Carrick was quite right to stop is 150 riders 7 or 8 abreast taking up 3/4 of the road, sometimes the full road, both lanes, even around blind corners and often refusing to move in for cars. I was at the Betty Darcy in Gorey about 5 or 6 years ago when that happened and a rider ended up writing off a Toyota Celica.

That was on a narrow back road and it was a Yaris. Don't remember anyone refusing to move in.

Agree with Madone. Let's leave it there and move on.

pprendeville

Simply put, accidents happen for a reason, and there are plenty of reasons in the video. That blind bend at 7:00mins, even though the riders probably had a better view, was still a blind bend and it was a single white line. I'm not saint myself mind. That image is rather scary though. Would a car cross the white line on a single white line going round a bend?

Don't buy the idea of not highlighting these matters on a public forum. It's kinda like posting dangerous driving videos in the driving forum and being criticised by other drivers for highlighting potential problems.

ragazzo

pprendeville wrote: »

Simply put, accidents happen for a reason, and there are plenty of reasons in the video. That blind bend at 7:00mins, even though the riders probably had a better view, was still a blind bend and it was a single white line. I'm not saint myself mind. That image is rather scary though. Would a car cross the white line on a single white line going round a bend?

Don't buy the idea of not highlighting these matters on a public forum. It's kinda like posting dangerous driving videos in the driving forum and being criticised by other drivers for highlighting potential problems.

It is nothing like your second paragraph.
Those drivers would not bring the activity of driving into disrepute. They would alone be held responsible for their actions.
Your post shows a lack of knowledge of the present circumstances and ever increasing difficulties that we face regarding our sport.
As a member of a certain club you should be aware of that situation.
Highlighting some random acts on public forums is not really helpful at all and could become the ammunition that shoots us into the future.
Think twice, type once!

pprendeville

Yes I'm a member of Swords cycling club. I'm aware of the problems that the club has faced and how pro-actively the club has worked to address these issues involving residents and the gardai.

In this case I think the video footage clearly highlights some dangerous manoeuvres which could lead to to a loss of life, not only from a cyclists point of view, but also drivers. I think debates like these should be welcomed in the public eye as they clearly draw attention to what we are doing wrong in cycling.

Maybe us cyclists are not as angelic as we would like to think. I don't see where the attitude of "leaving it here and moving on" will get us. Is that not akin to forgetting that these blatantly dangerous incidents occurred and waiting until something more serious happens before dealing with the issue? But in a way you are right, I am fairly ignorant of the situation not being in the country and being a relatively new cyclist myself. I'm just posting my opinions and don't mean to offend anyone so apologies if I have ruffled any feathers.

morana

Solution: 1 way circuits.

pprendeville

Dopey Q. How do they work? Akin to closed roads?

J Madone

pprendeville wrote: »

Simply put, accidents happen for a reason, and there are plenty of reasons in the video. That blind bend at 7:00mins, even though the riders probably had a better view, was still a blind bend and it was a single white line. I'm not saint myself mind. That image is rather scary though. Would a car cross the white line on a single white line going round a bend?

Don't buy the idea of not highlighting these matters on a public forum. It's kinda like posting dangerous driving videos in the driving forum and being criticised by other drivers for highlighting potential problems.

When we are no longer allowed run races due to complaints from the public, whilst being highlighted on an open internet forum which is semi anonymous. It may well be used against all of us who race.

Beasty

morana wrote: »

Solution: 1 way circuits.

That's essentially rolling road closures which have to be policed by the Gardai. That's fine for a couple of Open races over a weekend (and will be pretty much the process adopted this weekend in Balbriggan afaik), but extend it to midweek/club racing and it becomes more of a logistical issue - essentially requiring the full support of both local Gardai and the local council.

Either way this is something where CI need to take a bit more of a lead on (as Triathlon Ireland have been doing for thr tri community who are facing similar issues, even though their "races" are more akin to TTs)

morana

Beasty wrote: »

That's essentially rolling road closures which have to be policed by the Gardai. That's fine for a couple of Open races over a weekend (and will be pretty much the process adopted this weekend in Balbriggan afaik), but extend it to midweek/club racing and it becomes more of a logistical issue - essentially requiring the full support of both local Gardai and the local council.

Either way this is something where CI need to take a bit more of a lead on (as Triathlon Ireland have been doing for thr tri community who are facing similar issues, even though their "races" are more akin to TTs)

i did say earlier its not easy. The day may come when we have no choice in what circuits to use etc. but I agree CI need to prioritise it rather than....oh lets leave it there

buffalo

J Madone wrote: »

Why oh why must this ammunition be put on a public forum? Agree with some of what's said, this chat will only be used against the general body of racing cyclists rather than the offenders, doesnt take much to find all these transgressions on boards. There is a time and a place for these sentiments, this is not the place

At least one commissaire reads this forum - perhaps he'll take the comments here back to the college of commissaires, and we'll see a crackdown on dangerous behaviour, before someone (e.g. Fingal Council) decides to start closing off races because of it.

Mind you, I haven't seen anything to suggest that CI or the CoC take on board suggestions from the 'everyman/woman' cyclist without calling an EGM or bringing it to the AGM, and even they'll fight things tooth and nail if they don't like it.

Morrisseeee

If a person's life, be it a cyclist, a motorist, a spectator etc is saved because of the commissaire's actions and in highlighting this issue in recent weeks, then is it not worth it ?

We're all adults, take your warning, learn from it, feel lucky that you're still alive & well and able to race next week and move on.

mcgratheoin

ragazzo wrote: »

It is nothing like your second paragraph.
Those drivers would not bring the activity of driving into disrepute. They would alone be held responsible for their actions.

Maybe you should have a look at the replies to a video of dangerous driving around cyclists - it inevitably leads to people listing their own experiences of bad driving and usually a few "taxis/buses are the worst, they're always pulling out/in right across cyclists". If there was a video of a garda car following somebody driving dangerously and not stopping them, then maybe we'd have an analagous video. I don't see how this brings cycling into disrepute any more than somebody posting about any level of bad behaviour by cyclists - RLJ/Footpath/salmoning

ragazzo wrote: »

Your post shows a lack of knowledge of the present circumstances and ever increasing difficulties that we face regarding our sport.

That's a bit much - PPrendeville is highlighting legitimate safety issues that could lead to serious injuries. Besides, I thought omerta was dead and we were allowed to discuss all aspects of the sport in public.

ragazzo wrote: »

Highlighting some random acts on public forums is not really helpful at all and could become the ammunition that shoots us into the future.

Do you think these are genuinely random acts? Do you think that this behaviour is not seen at a majority of races? Obviously it is not a majority of riders, but this is even more reason why it should be discussed, condemned and regularly policed. As for the ammunition that shoots us - see next paragraph.

JMadone wrote:

When we are no longer allowed run races due to complaints from the public, whilst being highlighted on an open internet forum which is semi anonymous. It may well be used against all of us who race.

If we're no longer allowed to race, the complaints which lead to that will be about first hand experience of cyclists riding dangerously, not what somebody saw whilst trawling boards. If commissaires continue to turn a blind eye to this behaviour then I can fully understand why various authorities would be reluctant to allow racing to take place. Any event organiser must have a level of trust with the authorities that they will ensure their event is run safely and securely within the parameters agreed. When that trust disappears, (e.g. MCD in the Phoenix Park) the authorities believe that they must impose ever more stringent requirements on the organisers (for us this will be closed roads/specific times & dates/garda presence etc.) which for a sport like cycling may be prohibitive.

ragazzo wrote: »

Think twice, type once!

Seriously? Perhaps this would be better aimed not at people who raise this behaviour as a valid concern, but at those who see nothing wrong with it. If any part of an internet forum discussion gets highlighted along with complaints it will surely be that a certain proportion of the cycling community don't have a problem with racing on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic.

Lumen

It is normal for human endeavours which involve risk to be discussed and reported on in public. That's how safety is improved.

Examples: plane crashes, shuttle disasters, skydiving fatalities.

Cultures of secrecy just store up bigger problems for the future.

Examples: paedo priests, garda corruption, Lance.

J Madone

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Maybe you should have a look at the replies to a video of dangerous driving around cyclists - it inevitably leads to people listing their own experiences of bad driving and usually a few "taxis/buses are the worst, they're always pulling out/in right across cyclists". If there was a video of a garda car following somebody driving dangerously and not stopping them, then maybe we'd have an analagous video. I don't see how this brings cycling into disrepute any more than somebody posting about any level of bad behaviour by cyclists - RLJ/Footpath/salmoning



That's a bit much - PPrendeville is highlighting legitimate safety issues that could lead to serious injuries. Besides, I thought omerta was dead and we were allowed to discuss all aspects of the sport in public.



Do you think these are genuinely random acts? Do you think that this behaviour is not seen at a majority of races? Obviously it is not a majority of riders, but this is even more reason why it should be discussed, condemned and regularly policed. As for the ammunition that shoots us - see next paragraph.


If we're no longer allowed to race, the complaints which lead to that will be about first hand experience of cyclists riding dangerously, not what somebody saw whilst trawling boards. If commissaires continue to turn a blind eye to this behaviour then I can fully understand why various authorities would be reluctant to allow racing to take place. Any event organiser must have a level of trust with the authorities that they will ensure their event is run safely and securely within the parameters agreed. When that trust disappears, (e.g. MCD in the Phoenix Park) the authorities believe that they must impose ever more stringent requirements on the organisers (for us this will be closed roads/specific times & dates/garda presence etc.) which for a sport like cycling may be prohibitive.


Seriously? Perhaps this would be better aimed not at people who raise this behaviour as a valid concern, but at those who see nothing wrong with it. If any part of an internet forum discussion gets highlighted along with complaints it will surely be that a certain proportion of the cycling community don't have a problem with racing on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic.

Ever raced?

mcgratheoin

J Madone wrote: »

Ever raced?

If you're asking me have I ever been guilty of the transgressions seen in the video, then yes I have. Doesn't disqualify me from saying the commissaires should do something about it. On a side note, if you're worried about racing permits being rescinded by the authorities, then limiting the discussion to racers and ex-racers isn't going to get you very far. If the Gardai raise concerns about this behaviour, is that the response you propose?

**clarification edit**
BTW, I'm completely aware that as has been mentioned here, there are times when cyclists or parts of a peleton will spill over the middle of the road, and there are times when somebody on the limit when attacking will move wide and might drift over the line as well. I don't have a problem with this, and if there is a lead motorbike stopping (not just warning traffic, but actually stopping traffic), then I wouldn't be complaining about it. What's got me annoyed via this thread is;

1. Commissaires stopping a race because they decide it's too dangerous but not disqualifying anybody.
2. This sort of behaviour in a peleton sprinting for 23rd (or whatever) place.
3. The suggestion that we shouldn't be discussing this in public

As Beasty said, I'm in a grumpy mood this morning..

Koobcam

Fully agree with the three points mentioned by mcgratheoin. I reckon the only way to change what is pretty reckless behaviour is to disqualify riders-if the Commissaire says before the race that riders will be disqualified for crossing the white line and then fails to impose any sanction apart from a telling off, then it's all pretty meaningless. I agree with posters who suggest that riding o closed circuits would be better, but that is never going to happen, so I think we need to address the legitimate safety concerns properly with meaningful action. By the way, in terms of safely, I thought the DH circuit was really good-some of the roads could have been in better condition, but for minor country roads, they weren't too bad, plus there was hardly any traffic once we got off the main roads.

ragazzo

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Maybe you should have a look at the replies to a video of dangerous driving around cyclists - it inevitably leads to people listing their own experiences of bad driving and usually a few "taxis/buses are the worst, they're always pulling out/in right across cyclists". If there was a video of a garda car following somebody driving dangerously and not stopping them, then maybe we'd have an analagous video. I don't see how this brings cycling into disrepute any more than somebody posting about any level of bad behaviour by cyclists - RLJ/Footpath/salmoning



That's a bit much - PPrendeville is highlighting legitimate safety issues that could lead to serious injuries. Besides, I thought omerta was dead and we were allowed to discuss all aspects of the sport in public.



Do you think these are genuinely random acts? Do you think that this behaviour is not seen at a majority of races? Obviously it is not a majority of riders, but this is even more reason why it should be discussed, condemned and regularly policed. As for the ammunition that shoots us - see next paragraph.


If we're no longer allowed to race, the complaints which lead to that will be about first hand experience of cyclists riding dangerously, not what somebody saw whilst trawling boards. If commissaires continue to turn a blind eye to this behaviour then I can fully understand why various authorities would be reluctant to allow racing to take place. Any event organiser must have a level of trust with the authorities that they will ensure their event is run safely and securely within the parameters agreed. When that trust disappears, (e.g. MCD in the Phoenix Park) the authorities believe that they must impose ever more stringent requirements on the organisers (for us this will be closed roads/specific times & dates/garda presence etc.) which for a sport like cycling may be prohibitive.


Seriously? Perhaps this would be better aimed not at people who raise this behaviour as a valid concern, but at those who see nothing wrong with it. If any part of an internet forum discussion gets highlighted along with complaints it will surely be that a certain proportion of the cycling community don't have a problem with racing on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic.

Indeed.

My concern is about the sport of racing. Posters may or may not be aware of the present difficulties.
Those who just cycle to work, go for a spin to the coffee shop or race all the best sportives would probably not realise what is currently happening.
When you have nothing at stake it makes no difference.

Open debate is great but sometimes it is necessary to box clever. That debate should, of course, be taking place within the committee and board meetings of the sporting body involved.
Maybe it is and they are formulating plans for implementation.

We are obviously working off different information and occupy different roles in the cycling world. If yours was the reality that would be nice.

doozerie

While I can understand concerns about the likes of the earlier video portraying cycling in a bad light, I believe that as far as many people are concerned that is a typical bike race in their minds already. In the three (A4) races I’ve done in recent weeks I saw close shaves between riders on the wrong side of the road and oncoming traffic in each of them. I was working hard to stay on the correct side of the road, as were the vast majority of the riders in the bunch in each race, but despite that balance in favour of those making an effort to ride safely, the bits that stick in my memory are those close shaves. For the non-cycling public, they will almost certainly register nothing at all except the most blatant dangerous riding, bike racing will be synonymous with wilful dangerous behaviour in their minds.

If we want to convince the public, and the gardai, that such behaviour is not representative, then we have to be seen to condemn it. It seems like the gardai have been quite casual towards bike racing in the past, to their credit, but they seem to be paying a lot more attention now if various club league experiences last year are anything to go by. If the cycling community is perceived as not being willing and able to police itself, then there is a far greater likelihood that it’ll be policed for us by people who may not share the same enthusiasm to keep the sport alive.

So I believe that we should condemn blatantly dangerous behaviour, for the safety concerns first and foremost but in doing so we might even paint the sport in a better light generally. From what I’ve seen it’s a minority of riders that behave so recklessly but if they are not ticked off by fellow riders and/or commissaires then they’ll keep doing as they have been doing and will likely encourage others along the way (it’s no fun fighting for space in a packed bunch only to see someone gain several places easily by riding on the other side of the road, even if they are riding into a blind bend the adrenaline-fuelled temptation is always to follow them).

It’s not the non-cycling public that may prove to be the nail in the coffin of the sport in this case, it’s a reckless minority within the sport itself. Peer pressure to behave from within the bunch may help to curtail the worst of their behaviour, but the commissaires need to step in too and make a few examples of people to force the point home. To do otherwise will be perceived, by the riders and the public, as essentially condoning the behaviour.