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Ivor Bell arrested and charged in Jean McConville murder investigation

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    #1112
    Tramps Like Us
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Tramps Like Us


    junder wrote: »
    Gerry Adams has been arrested over the Jean mcconville killing, can't see anything Conington it though, and suspect he will walk


    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27232731
    Being honest do you think the timing is politically motivated? If we are both honest with ourselves I think we can admit that there have been a lot of politically motivated arrests, particularly with the timing, over the past few months, from both communities.


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    #1113
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    There must be some very, very disappointed posters from Boards.ie hearing this news about Bell's arrest. Gerry Adams or any senior members of Sinn Fein have not been arrested in connection with her death.

    We didn't have too long to wait.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The point is, I and everyone else couldn't make a judgement before the full truth was on the table.
    I haven't made my mind up about McConville either. I want to know and am entitled to know, all the truth, however unpalatable that truth might be.
    If you are serious about moving forward here, then that is what you too should be calling for.
    It's why I support SF's call for a truth and reconciliation commission and also why I understand their reluctance to disclose their part in events without full disclosure from all sides.
    holyhead wrote: »
    Getting back to the central issue of this man's arrest. Until Gerry Adams honestly places his cards on the table regarding the murder of Ms McConville his gravitas and sincerity will always be questioned in the Republic.
    maccored wrote: »
    I fail to see how arresting Ivor Bell is going to do anything, considering the information collected by the Boston college is no good in court. Yes it would be fantastic to get the truth, but I cant see how they're going to get it this way.

    As for Adams - the only thing people want to hear is him saying he was responsible. Regardless of if he was or not.
    holyhead wrote: »
    Yes happyman I am highly educated and well versed in the english language. Nobody will take Gerry Adams seriously as long as he continues to deny he was in the IRA and as long as he continues to deny having any hand act or part in Ms McConville's disappearance. It is Gerry who is insulting the intelligence of his fellow Irishman.

    You actually need to be very well versed in the English language to deal with Gerry Adams statements.

    He has said he wasn't involved in the abduction, murder and burial of Jean McConville.

    Even if he is telling the truth, that leaves a number of questions.

    Was he involved in the planning of that operation?
    Was he involved in ordering that operation?
    Was he involved in toturing the woman?

    Now that he has been arrested, I hope that these detailed type of questions are being put to him.


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    #1114
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    We didn't have too long to wait.









    You actually need to be very well versed in the English language to deal with Gerry Adams statements.

    He has said he wasn't involved in the abduction, murder and burial of Jean McConville.

    Even if he is telling the truth, that leaves a number of questions.

    Was he involved in the planning of that operation?
    Was he involved in ordering that operation?
    Was he involved in toturing the woman?

    Now that he has been arrested, I hope that these detailed type of questions are being put to him.

    Which bit of 'wasn't involved in' do you not understand?


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    #1115
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Which bit of 'wasn't involved in' do you not understand?

    I read the statement carefully, he never said he wasn't involved in her torture, he also never said he didn't order the operation.

    Careful words carefully spoken.


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    #1116
    miju
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,486 ✭✭✭miju


    Godge wrote: »
    I read the statement carefully, he never said he wasn't involved in her torture, he also never said he didn't order the operation.

    Careful words carefully spoken.

    Come to mention he never said he wasnt on the grassy knoll when JFK was shot either.

    He surely has questions to answer there also :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #1117
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    I read the statement carefully, he never said he wasn't involved in her torture, he also never said he didn't order the operation.

    Careful words carefully spoken.

    Here is his full statement.
    Last month I said that I was available to meet the PSNI about the Jean McConville case. While I have concerns about the timing, I am voluntarily meeting with the PSNI this evening.“As a republican leader I have never shirked my responsibility to build the peace. This includes dealing with the difficult issue of victims and their families. Insofar as it is possible I have worked to bring closure to victims and their families who have contacted me. Even though they may not agree, this includes the family of Jean McConville.

    I believe that the killing of Jean McConville and the secret burial of her body was wrong and a grievous injustice to her and her family.

    Well publicised, malicious allegations have been made against me. I reject these.

    While I have never disassociated myself from the IRA and I never will, I am innocent of any part in the abduction, killing or burial of Mrs McConville.

    Sinn Féin has signed up to the Haass proposals for dealing with the past. While I also respect the right of families if they wish to seek legal redress there remains a huge onus on the two governments and the political parties to face up to all these issues and to agree a victim centred process which does this.
    'Any part'

    Issuing the order, would be 'a part' of the abduction. Torturing the informer would also be 'a part' of the abduction.


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    #1118
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    miju wrote: »
    Come to mention he never said he wasnt on the grassy knoll when JFK was shot either.

    He surely has questions to answer there also :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


    A better comparison to American Presidents is to Bill Clinton.

    He did not have sexual relations with that woman (she just performed a sexual act on him). What was not said by Clinton was as important as what was said.

    Gerry Adams is similarly economical with his words.


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    #1119
    Tramps Like Us
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Tramps Like Us


    miju wrote: »
    Come to mention he never said he wasnt on the grassy knoll when JFK was shot either.

    He surely has questions to answer there also :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I heard he sabotaged Gerrards boots so he'd slip and he knows where that missing plane is


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    #1120
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    .


    'Any part'

    Issuing the order, would be 'a part' of the abduction. Torturing the informer would also be 'a part' of the abduction.

    Maybe you can ask him to clarify that.


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    #1121
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Here is his full statement.


    'Any part'

    Issuing the order, would be 'a part' of the abduction. Torturing the informer would also be 'a part' of the abduction.

    It would, thankfully he has and will never be found guilty of any of these because he had no involvement.


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    #1122
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    It would, thankfully he has and will never be found guilty of any of these because he had no involvement.

    Presumably you are arguing that he was never in the IRA? Do you not think, from a republican perspective, that it reflects rather badly on someone who rose to the top of the republican movement that he would have chosen to leave the dirty / dangerous work to others?


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    #1123
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    Presumably you are arguing that he was never in the IRA? Do you not think, from a republican perspective, that it reflects rather badly on someone who rose to the top of the republican movement that he would have chosen to leave the dirty / dangerous work to others?

    Look at it another way, wasn't it very astute (which Adams, as probably one of the longest serving party leaders in the world, has proven himself to be) to clearly separate himself from the military wing? When setting out on the strategy of 'an armalite in one hand and a ballot box in the other' it was politically very expedient to have a leader who could not be accused of being a member of the IRA.
    It allowed him to be talked to by politicians who could not be seen talking directly to the IRA.


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    #1124
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Jean mcconville eldest daughter says she is now prepared to go to the police and name who was involved in her mother's abduction


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    #1125
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Look at it another way, wasn't it very astute (which Adams, as probably one of the longest serving party leaders in the world, has proven himself to be) to clearly separate himself from the military wing? When setting out on the strategy of 'an armalite in one hand and a ballot box in the other' it was politically very expedient to have a leader who could not be accused of being a member of the IRA.
    It allowed him to be talked to by politicians who could not be seen talking directly to the IRA.

    Let’s see. A teenager Gerry Adams, decided it might be best not to join the IRA despite believing their cause to be a just one because he knew over 10 years later there would be a hunger strike prompting republicans to embark on their armalite + ballot box strategy and as he also knew he would be their leader in the future he would have to be “clean” because PIRA’s just war was actually unjust and he couldn’t be tainted? :confused:

    Also, when the British decided they were going to have secret talks with the IRA, Adams would be such an IRA member they could talk to because he was not actually in the IRA? :confused:

    To try and reason that Adams was never in the IRA is contrary to all evidence and logic reason and those who try to stand this legless argument up, if they are being sincere (the probably are not), are simply away with the fairies.

    A far simpler and more plausible explanation is that Adams rejects that he was a member to give him deniability in the highly emotive McConville case.


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    #1126
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    Also, when the British decided they were going to have secret talks with the IRA, Adams would be such an IRA member they could talk to because he was not actually in the IRA? :confused:

    Thats because they wanted to talk to representatives of the republican community, not just the IRA.


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    #1127
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    Let’s see. A teenager Gerry Adams, decided it might be best not to join the IRA despite believing their cause to be a just one because he knew over 10 years later there would be a hunger strike prompting republicans to embark on their armalite + ballot box strategy and as he also knew he would be their leader in the future he would have to be “clean” because PIRA’s just war was actually unjust and he couldn’t be tainted? :confused:
    Seems to me that Adams always believed in a dual strategy, I can't find any public statements from him as a teenager claiming a military campaign was the only option...can you?
    As to the 'clean' and 'tainted' comments, anybody with an ounce of intelligence would know that hiding behind 'moral imperatives like 'we never talk to terrorists' stagnates political progress. He simply removed that option and also made it impossible for an oppressive state to constantly arrest him and jail him. They couldn't do that because, guess what, there was no proof he was a member. Pretty smart if you ask me.
    Also, when the British decided they were going to have secret talks with the IRA, Adams would be such an IRA member they could talk to because he was not actually in the IRA? :confused:
    I think you managed to confuse yourself there.
    To try and reason that Adams was never in the IRA is contrary to all evidence [/QUOTE] Where is this incriminating evidence again?...ah hearsay and conjecture from those 'who would say that', is it?
    A far simpler and more plausible explanation is that Adams rejects that he was a member to give him deniability in the highly emotive McConville case.
    Feck me...and you claim others are conspiracy theorists?:rolleyes:


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    #1128
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    ah hearsay and conjecture from those 'who would say that', is it?
    Much the same as the evidence for collusion and British involvement in the Dublin / Monaghan bombings.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Feck me...and you claim others are conspiracy theorists?:rolleyes:
    You don’t think that he might have reasoned that being linked to shooting a widow in the back of the head might have caused him some electoral difficulties (and gained him nothing!) had he decided to fess up?

    :rolleyes: Yourself!


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    #1129
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    Much the same as the evidence for collusion and British involvement in the Dublin / Monaghan bombings.
    You know what is in the files the British refuse to release pertaining to the D/M bombings?
    You don’t think that he might have reasoned that being linked to shooting a widow in the back of the head might have caused him some electoral difficulties (and gained him nothing!) had he decided to fess up?

    :rolleyes: Yourself!

    Admitting to membership of the IRA makes him guilty of that or is it that he just guilty of everything?
    Would you still not require specific evidence relating to that case? :rolleyes:


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    #1130
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    ...he has and will never be found guilty of any of these because he had no involvement.
    How do you know?


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    #1131
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You know what is in the files the British refuse to release pertaining to the D/M bombings?
    No I don't. Neither does any of the many people who assert as fact that the British were involved. And yet ...

    As an aside, would you expect the IRA to ever share their darker history with us? Name and shame their "volunteers" who were responsible for say Kingsmill or other civilian murders? And if not, is it not a tad rich to berate the other side for not doing so?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Admitting to membership of the IRA makes him guilty of that or is it that he just guilty of everything?
    Admitting IRA membership in Belfast at the time of the murder would make it very difficult for him to distance himself from involvement in it, even if he were not actually involved. Gerry knows what he is doing. ;)


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    #1132
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    No I don't. Neither does any of the many people who assert as fact that the British were involved. And yet ...

    We don't know if they were or not, they won't release the files relating to it.
    As an aside, would you expect the IRA to ever share their darker history with us? Name and shame their "volunteers" who were responsible for say Kingsmill or other civilian murders? And if not, is it not a tad rich to berate the other side for not doing so?
    I would expect we will one day know at a truth and reconciliation process that Unionists and the British don't want and yet they are the good guys in some peoples eyes.

    Admitting IRA membership in Belfast at the time of the murder would make it very difficult for him to distance himself from involvement in it, even if he were not actually involved. Gerry knows what he is doing. ;)

    Admitting involvement didn't do MMcG much harm and yet Gerry is spending another 48 hours in custody.
    Strange reasoning you have, are you sure that you are willing to be convinced, are you sure you haven't decided already that he is guilty?


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    #1133
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I would expect we will one day know at a truth and reconciliation process that Unionists and the British don't want and yet they are the good guys in some peoples eyes.
    It won't happen. SF want it just as little as anyone else. The British government could deliver this, they don't want to and won't do it, but the could. Republicans simply could not deliver this (the could not even give us the thugs who murdered Robert McCarthy, which had nothing to do with their war). But they know their bluff won't be called so they can play their little game.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Admitting involvement didn't do MMcG much harm and yet Gerry is spending another 48 hours in custody. .
    MMcG admitted it because to deny it would make a mockery of republicans calls for a truthful inquiry in to Bloody Sunday.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Strange reasoning you have, are you sure that you are willing to be convinced, are you sure you haven't decided already that he is guilty?
    I have decided he was in the IRA, only liars or fools say otherwise. Whether he was involved or not in the murder of Jean McConville, I don't expect to ever know.


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    #1134
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    A self serving post if ever I saw one.
    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    It won't happen. SF want it just as little as anyone else. The British government could deliver this, they don't want to and won't do it, but the could. Republicans simply could not deliver this (the could not even give us the thugs who murdered Robert McCarthy, which had nothing to do with their war). But they know their bluff won't be called so they can play their little game.

    How handy that is.
    The British won't have a truth and reconciliation commission.
    Nor will Loyalists.
    Sinn Fein say they will and continue to call for one.

    Yet SF remain the bad guys?

    What 'evidence' do you have that 'Sinn Fein don't want' this?

    MMcG admitted it because to deny it would make a mockery of republicans calls for a truthful inquiry in to Bloody Sunday.
    How would it have made a mockery while Gerry Adams consistent denials aren't causing any friction within SF?
    That just makes no sense.

    I have decided he was in the IRA, only liars or fools say otherwise. Whether he was involved or not in the murder of Jean McConville, I don't expect to ever know.

    You have decided? I hope you never sit in judgement of me, your requirement of proof is a little lacking.


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    #1135
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    A self serving post if ever I saw one.
    Ah, your buzz phrase again. Are you sure you know what self serving means?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How handy that is.
    The British won't have a truth and reconciliation commission.
    Nor will Loyalists.
    Sinn Fein say and continue to call for one.

    What 'evidence' do you have that 'Sinn Fein don't want' this?
    Ok. Let's suppose the British call their bluff and throw a few paratroopers to the wolves. (Only a misguided sense of loyalty would stop them)

    Now, republicans have to respond. How do you suppose that will happen? The old lads will confess themselves? Gerry and Martin will turn tout?

    Aint going to happen. Why did they not give up McCartney's murderers? Because it is simply not possible for them to do so.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How would it have made a mockery while Gerry Adams consistent denials aren't causing any friction within SF?
    That just makes no sense.
    MMcG lent his voice to calls for truth in relation to bloody Sunday and give testimony at that inquiry. Do you really not see how preposterous it would be if McG subsequently turning up and lied through his teeth?


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    #1136
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    Ah, your buzz phrase again. Are you sure you know what self serving means?
    Yes I do know.

    Ok. Let's suppose the British call their bluff and throw a few paratroopers to the wolves. (Only a misguided sense of loyalty would stop them)

    Now, republicans have to respond. How do you suppose that will happen? The old lads will confess themselves? Gerry and Martin will turn tout?

    Aint going to happen. Why did they not give up McCartney's murderers? Because it is simply not possible for them to do so.
    A one sided T&R process, wow you really understand.

    MMcG lent his voice to calls for truth in relation to bloody Sunday and give testimony at that inquiry. Do you really not see how preposterous it would be if McG subsequently turning up and lied through his teeth?
    GA has also spent a long time calling for truths to be told. Martin doesn't risk ridicule but the leader does? Nope, you ain't using any logic I understand.


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    #1137
    Dr.Tank Adams
    Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭Dr.Tank Adams


    This has all been timed impeccably I must say...


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    #1138
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »
    This has all been timed impeccably I must say...
    I'm beginning to think the British did this deliberately to bolster and grow SF support north and south..the sooner SF are in, the sooner they can get out.


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    #1139
    rockatansky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭rockatansky


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I'm beginning to think the British did this deliberately to bolster and grow SF support north and south..the sooner SF are in, the sooner they can get out.

    Very good point. I don't think the British Government were directly involved in it, more like the old Unionist Brotherhood within the PSNI, but they would like nothing more than to walk away from Northern Ireland.


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    #1140
    Dr.Tank Adams
    Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭Dr.Tank Adams


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I'm beginning to think the British did this deliberately to bolster and grow SF support north and south..the sooner SF are in, the sooner they can get out.

    Seems like way too much of a coincidence that they decide to pick him up just as Sinn Fein are pushing for the top of the polls, I've no doubt there are a lot of people they could have chosen instead of him that they have far better cases against. On a side note, I wouldn't be as convinced of their failure if they got into power as you are, they're a fairly pragmatic bunch and I don't think they'd make as many of the elementary mistakes that other small parties make.


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    #1141
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    Thats because they wanted to talk to representatives of the republican community, not just the IRA.

    Not according to Willy Whitelaw. He was quite specific that he was talking to IRA men, as was Seán Mac Stíofáin.


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